PG Duffy and Sons of Naas Road guilty of price fixing

DonJose

Its very difficult to have any sympathy for the current car industry when you read what they have been up to in the past :mad:

---

A Co Kildare company director was given a nine months suspended prison sentence and fined a total of €100,000 for fixing car prices as a member of a cartel by a judge at the Central Criminal Court in Dublin today.

Mr Justice Liam McKechnie warned that custodial prison sentences would be handed down in future for such offences.

"The first generation of carteliers have escaped prison sentences. I can say that the second will not," he said.

Patrick Duffy (aged 52) is a co-director of Duffy Motors Limited which trades as PG Duffy and Sons at Naas Road, Newbridge, Co Kildare. Mr Duffy and the company pleaded guilty last January to entering into and implementing agreements with other Leinster car dealers to fix prices of Citroen vehicles...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eyaumhidojkf/

.Longshanks.

Im almost sure i read about this a few weeks ago on this site?

unkel

There are a few other Citroen dealers in the kartel who were previously convicted. Maybe you were thinking of those?

leitrim lad

he has lost alot of custom since this came out ,i know the recession is killing car sales but his forecourt has been full of the same stuff for a long time now and the auction out the road is no help to them:eek:

Stevie Dakota

Pity for Citroen that these assholes were up to their tricks, they have some nice cars at last but who would trust a Citroen dealer now?

DonJose

Longshanks100 wrote: »

Im almost sure i read about this a few weeks ago on this site?

They pleaded guilty in January but were sentenced today.

.Longshanks.

DonJose wrote: »

They pleaded guilty in January but were sentenced today.

Yeah, sorry your right. Just done a quick search and found it here
I jumped from charged to guilty all on my own

Locamon

Jail sentences next time.
Same old story here...until the law deals with corporate misdeeds in a serious way this will just go on in another way. Great on the fine but will CAB have a look at their dealings and look to refund the unfortunate customers who were ripped off?

On the positive this should make forecourts more competitive but I guess the economy has already looked after that one.

leitrim lad

citroen have come along way they nearly own the wrc with all of them thats left in it ,i didnt like to say it earlier but they should have got jail,imagine some poor fool going in with his wife to buy a car and she wasnt having anything else but that car ,and them jackasses fixing the prices ,and the poor fool left paying the finance and interest , i think their company should have been wound up:mad:

pburns

leitrim lad wrote: »

citroen have come along way they nearly own the wrc with all of them thats left in it ,i didnt like to say it earlier but they should have got jail,imagine some poor fool going in with his wife to buy a car and she wasnt having anything else but that car ,and them jackasses fixing the prices ,and the poor fool left paying the finance and interest , i think their company should have been wound up:mad:

Mmmm...I'd say he was a fool in the first place for letting the wife wear the trousers to such an extent:p

Who's to say that most dealers of the same marque communicate to some degree to 'agree' prices? I'm not saying it's right but I don't think it's crime of the century.

Look - a spanking new Xsara Picasso is only worth as much as someone is prepared to pay. If some Joe Shmoe was prepared to pay through the nose and get himself into hock for such a privlege more fool him. If prices were that inflated a quick trawl of other marques would surely have shown that up. When the banks were firing money out I bet most people barely haggled.

Caveat empor...

leitrim lad

true its not crime of the century!
but it was a round about way of doing things , i would say that alot of dealers communicate, and also with banks i noticed in some dealerships they can orgainse the finance with certain banks whom they have contacts , and other banks maybe wouldnt do it if you ring them your self , they seem to want that conversation with the salesman before they communicate with the buyer:eek:

mickdw

I honestly dont understand this whole price fixing thing. Do all the other manufacturers not have a set retail price which all the dealers have to stick to?
I would understand it if 90 to 100% of all car dealers in the country were secretly meeting and inflating prices across the board but when its just one marque doing it, it looks like a valid pricing strategy to me.
Surely competition kept citroen prices honest and they would be on the cheap side of things too.

leitrim lad

if it were just a case of jacking up prices it would be easily understood, but all of these competition laws are complecated and a tad unnessessary in some cases not all cases though. but you know what sales men are like in it for the last penney , hungry to the bone:cool:

Owen

DonJose wrote: »

Its very difficult to have any sympathy for the current car industry when you read what they have been up to in the past :mad:

Nice generalisation. Yes this Dealer is the scum of the earth for doing this, but for every Dealer who price fixes, there's a few hundred that don't.

DonJose

ned78 wrote: »

Nice generalisation. Yes this Dealer is the scum of the earth for doing this, but for every Dealer who price fixes, there's a few hundred that don't.

Last year when I was looking for a new car 3 garages came back with the EXACT same price for the car I was looking at and it was loaded with extras. This was after I told them I was a cash buyer and ready to buy from the garage who offered the lowest price. Coincidence, I don't think so. Price fixing is a lot more widespread that people know.

GiftGrub100

Not really sure of the facts in this case, but the reactions are amazing, the only prices they could possibly have agreed to fix would have been straight deal prices and probably the amounts involved have to be small.

If you think about it a customer comes in buys a car with a retail of 15,000 and gets a 1,500 euro discount for buying the car straight and the dealer keeps 500 profit (only an example) and the pricing agreement must have been that other dealers would not better the discount. The retained margin could not have been that been that big as the nature of the motor trade is cut throat and they would cut margins to get a deal.

What would have been the most that the customer would have got extra ? another 200 euro maybe or did the dealer supply Mats, Mudflaps and Fuel the car as well while getting the final part of the deal agreed. Now how many straight deals did the dealer do in the year assume most people have a car to trade in when buying a brand new car then the most a big dealer could have had is 40- 50 deals. Potential profit for this operation if they made 500 per new car rather than 300 is and extra 200 per deal.

As for trade ins, they will have been different prices anyway as different dealers value cars in other ways.

As everyone is wishing the end of the motor trade, why not wonder why most goods are the same price in most shops eg IPODS, most TV's, Newspapers, Detergent etc is it that they all have the same basic cost and they all want a similar operating margin but yet again the motor trade is dragged over the coals over the fact that they agree prices yet Dunnes SuperValu and Tesco can actually advertise that certain products are the same price in their shop as the rivals, but when a car dealer agrees (legally or illegally) to do this he gets fined ? They are all selling products to consumers, some are just selling bigger boxes than others.

Amazingly the judge is threating jail in future for similar cases and yet the entire Irish economy has been destroyed by about twenty high profile people who have in concert with the banks screwed us all over for billions and billions of euros and left Ireland looking like a banana republic

leitrim lad

i would say their profit margins were tight , but they must have jacked up the retail price to make something of it ,and how did they get caught out did someone go in undercover a watchdog or something

mondeo

I have never trusted the car industry really, too many negative things going around about them. Even though there are many non dodgy garages out there I
have been scarred by so many dodgy dealings with one garage or another that I dont know what to believe anymore...

leitrim lad

it just seems too easy to tamper with a car ,put back the clock or make it look like it was never crashed ,and going by this case they can even tamper with new cars price wise

Owen

When I was a salesperson, a customer one time lied about how much money he was getting for his trade in at another garage. So, by using the OP's logic ... all customers are liars.

McSpud

GiftGrub100 wrote: »

Not really sure of the facts in this case, but the reactions are amazing, the only prices they could possibly have agreed to fix would have been straight deal prices and probably the amounts involved have to be small.

Ah sure that ok then. Price fixing is illegal & they surely would not have done it unless significant money to be made. :rolleyes:

Distributers cannot set a retail price as that is also illegal.

I am surprised a less then busy solicitor has not tried a class action suit to get money back from Citroen customers.

If SIMI were to have any credibility they would kick these Citroen dealers out of their association but they haven't done for clockers to no change convicted cartel members.

We wonder why prices for goods & services are expensive in Ireland when can fix prices with only a wrap on the knuckles.

leitrim lad

good one but the customer is always right or so you let them think

leitrim lad

i would agree they should loose their dealership, but think about it who in their right mind would buy from them now, their livelihood has just flowed down the liffey

mondeo

leitrim lad wrote: »

i would agree they should loose their dealership, but think about it who in their right mind would buy from them now, their livelihood has just flowed down the liffey

i hope they put the chaps picture in the newspaper so when he tries opening up somwhere else we will all know who he is...

leitrim lad

dont worry you will know his outfit , you wont miss the chinese people working behind the counter in the shop

pburns

ned78 wrote: »

When I was a salesperson, a customer one time lied about how much money he was getting for his trade in at another garage. So, by using the OP's logic ... all customers are liars.

How did you find that out?

Seriously though, I've knocked at least a hundred or two off the best price when trying to close a deal with my favoured dealer. That's not lying, that's HAGGLING.

See ye MINI/BMW salesmen have had it too easy;) - I bet you had to work harder specing out the colour and interior trim to match the buyers man-bag than you did negeotiating the finer details of price:D...

Saab Ed

DonJose wrote: »

Last year when I was looking for a new car 3 garages came back with the EXACT same price for the car I was looking at and it was loaded with extras. This was after I told them I was a cash buyer and ready to buy from the garage who offered the lowest price. Coincidence, I don't think so. Price fixing is a lot more widespread that people know.

The complete opposite is the truth. Once you mentioned the fact that you had no trade in the dealer basically gave you the car at cost price working purely for the rebate, hence the same price across the board. New cars dont make profit on their own, its only when you sell enough of them and get your rebates that money is made hence the amount of dealers going bust. At the moment cars are still be sold for no profit but not enough are being sold so the dealer ends up with no cash flow and no chance of hitting their rebate target.

Owen

pburns wrote: »

See ye MINI/BMW salesmen have had it too easy;) - I bet you had to work harder specing out the colour and interior trim to match the buyers man-bag than you did negeotiating the finer details of price:D...

lol, cheeky! When I did sell cars way back when (I wore an onion on my belt which was the fashion at the time) I found that BMW customers are no lambs to the slaughter - even before the UK love people would shop nearly every dealer in the country anyway.

All I'm saying is that it's ridiculous of the OP to tar every single dealer in the country with a big brush, based on the actions of a few. That's like saying because a Garda behaved aggressivly in the May Day Parade, that the whole force are just waiting to beat the snot out of us.

Jomcc

Perhaps I'm very stupid, but I could never understand the story with price fixing in motor industry.
As explained in earlier post, don't all products have a recommended retail price. Anything you buy in Tesco, Dunnes Stores etc will be same price everywhere (well almost everywhere).
Could someone please explain the situation regarding problem in car industry. If I pick up any car magazine, I see price for every new car. I'm sure I'm missing something but I'm afraid I'll need someone to point it out. Is this case about second hand cars or trade in values?

Thanks.

Saab Ed

Jomcc wrote: »

Perhaps I'm very stupid, but I could never understand the story with price fixing in motor industry.
As explained in earlier post, don't all products have a recommended retail price. Anything you buy in Tesco, Dunnes Stores etc will be same price everywhere (well almost everywhere).
Could someone please explain the situation regarding problem in car industry. If I pick up any car magazine, I see price for every new car. I'm sure I'm missing something but I'm afraid I'll need someone to point it out. Is this case about second hand cars or trade in values?

Thanks.

But unlike Tesco and Dunnes you can bargain on the final price before you make the purchase. Some dealers agreed between each other not to drop below a certain price no mater what...

-Chris-

ned78 wrote: »

Nice generalisation. Yes this Dealer is the scum of the earth for doing this, but for every Dealer who price fixes, there's a few hundred that don't.

Here's the frustrating thing - I've read about quite a few dealers getting done for price fixing over the last while. As far as I can remember all of them are in the Citroen network.
It seems to me that a load of Citroen dealers attended a few dealer meetings over a period and discussed pricing & maximum discounts. True, that's illegal, but now we're seeing each member of this dealer association prosecuted individually.
Rather than people seeing it as 12 prosecutions resulting from one set of dealer meetings, people are choosing to look at each as an individual rogue dealer who fixes prices with unknown partners, proving the point that no dealer can be trusted.

DonJose wrote: »

Last year when I was looking for a new car 3 garages came back with the EXACT same price for the car I was looking at and it was loaded with extras. This was after I told them I was a cash buyer and ready to buy from the garage who offered the lowest price. Coincidence, I don't think so. Price fixing is a lot more widespread that people know.

When you looked at the pricing and discount, did you notice a pattern? Did they all give 5% or 10%, or did they all give €2,000?
You have to realise that people like easy sums and round numbers, this includes salespeople.
If you come in to me, I may offer you 10% discount. I might up it to 12%. It's unlikely I'll ever offer 11.78%.

What's the likelihood that my competition are working with the same round numbers for convenience (or out of laziness), and if you visit 3 different dealers they'll all start off their negotiations at 10% discount?

leitrim lad wrote: »

i would say their profit margins were tight , but they must have jacked up the retail price to make something of it

Recommended Retail Prices are set from the distributor.

leitrim lad wrote: »

it just seems too easy to tamper with a car ,put back the clock or make it look like it was never crashed ,and going by this case they can even tamper with new cars price wise

That's a pretty big leap - the Citroen Dealer Association conspired to fix prices, but sure Irish dealers have been clocking and cutting-and-shutting for years, so therefore its seems likely that the widespread Irish dealer network is engaged in price fixing too.

McSpud wrote: »

Distributers cannot set a retail price as that is also illegal.

Why can't they?

Every distributor issues an RRP price list. They include it in their marketing materials and advertising.

McSpud wrote: »

If SIMI were to have any credibility they would kick these Citroen dealers out of their association

Agreed

McSpud wrote: »

We wonder why prices for goods & services are expensive in Ireland when can fix prices with only a wrap on the knuckles.

I'd say the prices we were charged related more to our inability (or lack of desire) to haggle.
Prices in every sphere have dropped since demand dropped. If we'd taken the advice to "vote with our feet" back when prices were spiralling, I'm sure you'd have seen the exact same effect.

leitrim lad wrote: »

dont worry you will know his outfit , you wont miss the chinese people working behind the counter in the shop

You should be aware that this kind of comment reflects badly on any other argument you've made thus far.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

sparklepants

AudiChris wrote: »

Here's the frustrating thing - I've read about quite a few dealers getting done for price fixing over the last while. As far as I can remember all of them are in the Citroen network.

Wow! People have short memories. Irish Ford dealers have also been convicted of price fixing in the last two years.

Some of you might recall a Prime Time documentary a few years ago highlighting the level of price fixing in Irish car dealerships. See article below:
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10008873.shtml

An RTÉ Prime Time investigation revealed in December 2005 that five of the country's biggest car dealers were involved in the alleged price fixing of new cars.

The programme, identified Ford, Mitsubishi, Citroen and Volvo as operating cartels in order to restrict competition within the trade.
Minutes of a dealer meeting, which were made available to Prime Time, revealed that one dealer suggested that dealers be fined €1,000 if they did not keep within the set prices.
The RTÉ investigation found that price fixing adds an extra €2,000 to €3,000 to the price for the average car buyer.

AudiChris wrote: »

Why can't they?

Every distributor issues an RRP price list. They include it in their marketing materials and advertising.

Some people just don't get it. Price fixing is against the law. It is tantamount to stealing from your customer. There's a world of a difference between a RRP and a fixed price. By fixing a price you prevent market forces from driving it down. People who fix prices are essentially repeat offenders as they break the law every time they sell a car. In this case a custodial sentence would therefore have been appropriate.

Saab Ed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4340388.stm

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/company-and-boss-fined-over-oil-pricefixing-scam-61017.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/goldshield-settles-1631m-pricefixing-claim-792151.html

All phone companies fix prices too, all of them ....oh and oil companies and medicine companies ,they're at it too. 30 seconds on the net finds theses stories about price fixing in every industry. It aint right but dont tar all with the same brush.

TomMc

I would say this is rampant across the marketplace. And not just car dealers but retail groups at large. Certainly any sector that has trade associations or the like and have monthly/bi-monthly meetings. I'm sure these type of things tend to crop up, if they see a threat from new competition which has or is about to enter the marketplace. Whether it be from supermarkets, discount stores, direct sales, online retailers etc. if business's see their market share or livelihood threatened, well who knows what they will do to try and maintain the status quo. Individually they are largely powerless but as a group or trade body, then they have more influence or ability to manipulate things.

The only difference is a small few got caught or left incriminating evidence lying about. And Citroen have appointed a new main dealer in my area, the third since this matter reared its ugly head.

sparklepants

Saab Ed wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4340388.stm

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/company-and-boss-fined-over-oil-pricefixing-scam-61017.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/goldshield-settles-1631m-pricefixing-claim-792151.html

All phone companies fix prices too, all of them ....oh and oil companies and medicine companies ,they're at it too. 30 seconds on the net finds theses stories about price fixing in every industry. It aint right but dont tar all with the same brush.

Are you implying that that makes price fixing okay then? Sure everybody's doing it these days.

Saab Ed

sparklepants wrote: »

Are you implying that that makes price fixing okay then? Sure everybody's doing it these days.

Far from it but what I am saying is that its all to easy to tar all with the same brush. I and plenty others here go to work in a dealership everyday where we work very hard to try and deal with everybody who walks through the door. Are all priests child abusers...I think not. Its not construtive to bash an entire industry just because small number are corrupt and thats what seems to be going on here. Its all to easy to hate the motor industry and blame everyone involved for the crimes of a few.

Some people pinch things ....most dont.

Some dealers price fix.....most dont and further more cant afford to because if you dont do the deal , someone else will

TomMc

In the past though when most car salespersons were mere order takers and demand exceeded supply, I'm sure this sort of thing flourished. Now of course with the way things are, it is every dealer or dealer group for themselves. That is the one good thing about the "R" word and competition - it separates the good, the bad and the ugly.

Jomcc

Saab Ed wrote: »

But unlike Tesco and Dunnes you can bargain on the final price before you make the purchase. Some dealers agreed between each other not to drop below a certain price no mater what...

I understand that, but does this not mean that Tesco and Dunnes are better at price fixing than the motor traders?

galwaytt

McSpud wrote: »

Distributers cannot set a retail price as that is also illegal..

Nonsense. Don't believe me?, then contact Revenue. OMSP, as used to calculate VRT, is based on retail pricing set by the distributor, and advised to Revenue so they can calculate the heinous VRT rate. They have it on the Revenue site, HERE

Saab Ed

Jomcc wrote: »

I understand that, but does this not mean that Tesco and Dunnes are better at price fixing than the motor traders?

Probably..... This is my take on price fixing. It goes on in lots of industries all over the country everyday. Check out prices in petrol stations in every town in Ireland. Funny how they always seem to be within 1 cent of each other in the same town yet they can be 5 to 10 cent dearer or cheaper 100 miles away. Newspapers nearly all cost the same. A can of coke is the same as a can of fanta or 7 up or sprite. But is this price fixing or is it just a calculated guess at what the market price can make. Use cigarettes as an example. If the market leader can get away with selling 20 for €8.50 but a competitor can in theory sell his for €7.50 and make profit then why dont they. The simple reason is that the market can sustain €8.40 so why sell for less. Thats not price fixing, thats just common sense. Sitting down with the competition and aggreing a fixed price is not on and should be delt with severly but good business is good business.

Owen

DonJose wrote: »

Last year when I was looking for a new car 3 garages came back with the EXACT same price for the car I was looking at and it was loaded with extras.

Just to clarify ...

3 Garages all supplying the same car
3 Garages all buying their stock from the same source
3 Garages all working with the same margin because of point 2

And you're curious as to how they got similar prices when you asked for a straight sale discount? Perhaps, being devils advocate, it's price fixing, but as another poster correctly pointed out, it's highly more likely that the three garages just eroded any up front profit from the deals (Arriving at the same cost price from point 2) in the hopes of getting rebates upon reaching their targets.

-Chris-

sparklepants wrote: »

Wow! People have short memories. Irish Ford dealers have also been convicted of price fixing in the last two years.

Some of you might recall a Prime Time documentary a few years ago highlighting the level of price fixing in Irish car dealerships. See article below:
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10008873.shtml

I didn't see that documentary. Thanks for the link.

I'm glad these dealers are getting caught, I think price fixing tarnishes the industry.


It's frustrating because I can say categorically that I've never seen any evidence of price fixing where I work, nor have I been approached by anyone from another dealer to discuss pricing.
When I joined the role originally, I was taken aside and my responsibilities regarding price fixing legislation were explained to me.
I was told that discussing pricing with another dealer was a fire-able offence.

sparklepants wrote: »

Some people just don't get it. Price fixing is against the law. It is tantamount to stealing from your customer. There's a world of a difference between a RRP and a fixed price. By fixing a price you prevent market forces from driving it down. People who fix prices are essentially repeat offenders as they break the law every time they sell a car. In this case a custodial sentence would therefore have been appropriate.

This is where the confusion is - I'm saying that the distributor can and does implement consistent pricing across their model range. They advertise this as RRP. This isn't illegal.
Agreeing between dealers that the max discount they'll allow will be €2,000, and if anyone breaks that agreement fines will be imposed - that's illegal.


Can I ask a question?
McDonalds advertise pricing including their eurosaver menu etc. If they advertise curly fries for a Euro and every McDonalds restaraunt sells those curly fries for a Euro, and if you ask for discount you'll be told "sorry, they cost a Euro", how is this not price fixing?

leitrim lad

mc donalds is one company ,even tough it has several outlets , it is the same as one big shop, ie same owners, but if mc donalds and burger king agreed the same price that would bring up some interesting competition laws

Owen

leitrim lad wrote: »

mc donalds is one company ,even tough it has several outlets , it is the same as one big shop, ie same owners

As far as I know, McDonalds is a franchise, and can be bought by anyone. Different owners!

Saab Ed

leitrim lad wrote: »

mc donalds is one company ,even tough it has several outlets , it is the same as one big shop, ie same owners, but if mc donalds and burger king agreed the same price that would bring up some interesting competition laws

Mc Donalds is one company but the network its made up of loads of smaller franchise operators.

Stevie Dakota

I was looking a C5 recently, was dealing with Gowan in Dun Laoghaire, the salesperson was great but I didn't buy in the end. I got their best cash price after some (what I thought) was good haggling, they would go NO lower. One phonecall to another Citroen dealer (Bluebell) and I was given a quote €1500 cheaper. At the time I thought it was odd and it could have simply been they way Gowan do things with different margins, but in light of recent events who knows?

Whatever, it is a PR nightmare for them.

leitrim lad

they are only knocken themselves in the long term,imagine the damage duffy has done to his own name ,or if a customer were to lose the plot ,or taught they got done by him, he could be killed

-Chris-

leitrim lad wrote: »

they are only knocken themselves in the long term,imagine the damage duffy has done to his own name ,or if a customer were to lose the plot ,or taught they got done by him, he could be killed

He could be hit by a bus tomorrow too... :D

I doubt anyone will kill a dealer for not giving an additional €500 discount on a new car. Seriously.

Owen

leitrim lad wrote: »

they are only knocken themselves in the long term,imagine the damage duffy has done to his own name ,or if a customer were to lose the plot ,or taught they got done by him, he could be killed

Jesus, Leitrim must be a scary place to live these days.

leitrim lad

would there be as much publicity about him by the press if he was ,people do get frustrated if they think they have been done
i shot him your honor because he done me on the price of a new c4

Owen

leitrim lad wrote: »

i shot him your honor because he done me on the price of a new c4

Do you honestly think someone's going to kill someone else over a Citroen?