Leaving the SU

dan719

If the SU attempts to mount a strike, I will quite happily picket the SU offices. My opinion on fees is well known, and my opinion on the SU probably more so.....The idea of a student strike is pathetic. I am also curious as to how a student can leave the SU. The constitution states that all students of the uni of Dublin are automatically members, and that it is the sole representitive body blah blah blah. However it does not allow for the option of leaving the union, and personally I don't want to have to collect 500 signatures and have a referendum(which I am pretty certain would not be until next year- should clarify that) just so I can leave the SU. Any 'hacks' out there with an answer for me?

Jonathan

dan719 wrote: »

If the SU attempts to mount a strike, I will quite happily picket the SU offices. My opinion on fees is well known, and my opinion on the SU probably more so.....The idea of a student strike is pathetic. I am also curious as to how a student can leave the SU. The constitution states that all students of the uni of Dublin are automatically members, and that it is the sole representitive body blah blah blah. However it does not allow for the option of leaving the union, and personally I don't want to have to collect 500 signatures and have a referendum(which I am pretty certain would not be until next year- should clarify that) just so I can leave the SU. Any 'hacks' out there with an answer for me?

You'd have my sig.

Denerick

jmccrohan wrote: »

You'd have my sig.

And mine.

dan719

dan719 wrote: »

I am also curious as to how a student can leave the SU. The constitution states that all students of the uni of Dublin are automatically members, and that it is the sole representitive body blah blah blah. However it does not allow for the option of leaving the union, and personally I don't want to have to collect 500 signatures and have a referendum(which I am pretty certain would not be until next year- should clarify that) just so I can leave the SU. Any 'hacks' out there with an answer for me?

This is massively off topic, but can you honestly state that you've never used any of the services the SU offer for students?

Jonathan

Dónal wrote: »

This is massively off topic, but can you honestly state that you've never used any of the services the SU offer for students?

I have been able to pick and choose what SU services I have availed of.

The SU have picked their stance on fees for me.

scruttocks

Dónal wrote: »

This is massively off topic, but can you honestly state that you've never used any of the services the SU offer for students?

That's not really the issue though is it? We're not talking about whether or not we should want to leave the SU, but whether or not we should be able to. I think we should. Myself and dan719 have had long chats about this, and the fact that TCDSU can claim legitimacy on some of its idiotic stunts from my (automatic) membership really irritates both of us.

EGaffney

I am 99% certain that you can choose to opt out of the Union if you want to.

Jonathan

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Also, if you want to discuss opting out of the SU/problems with the SU, feel free to create a new thread, let's try and keep this one on topic.

Wanna chop and change this one so?

PurpleFistMixer

jmccrohan wrote: »

Wanna chop and change this one so?

Done and done. I can change the title if necessary too.

Jonathan

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Done and done. I can change the title if necessary too.

luff you

tolosenc

Denerick wrote: »

And mine.

That's 4 of us.

Jonathan

obl wrote: »

That's 4 of us.

only 496 internet nerds to go.

dan719

Dónal wrote: »

This is massively off topic, but can you honestly state that you've never used any of the services the SU offer for students?

Can you state that you have never taken advantage of any of the services of the Fianna Fail government currently in power? Does that mean, that for the rest of your life you must agree with all decisions made by Fianna Fail?

The SU is an effective micro organisation. It does fantastic work at the college level. Stuck for money- it'll give you a loan. Chose the wrong course? It can help you through the transfer process and so on.

At the macro level it is rather less effective. It's grandiose statements on fees and it's 'me me me' approach to the whole issue is ridiculous. I am in favour in fees, as is more than half of my class(TSM). Neither of my class representitives voted against the 'oppose fees no matter what' motion presented at council all those months ago. How effectively have my classes views been represented? I take huge umbridge with current SU policy. Automatically left wing, and difficult for the standard student to influence...'any member may speak at council....only class reps may propose and vote on motions'.( I have read the SU constitution and have very much familiarised myself with it's workings- if only all class reps could say the same). I am aslo embarressed by the approach taken by the current SU towards the fees issue. If Cathal et al want to mount a protest against fees through illegal occupation of a government building, feel free to do so as private citizens, not in MY name as my supposed representitives. If the SU wants to align itself with bodies such as the USI, feel free. Don't ask us to pay for it automatically. Do I want to be a member of a socialist society, that ignores economic reality? Not really. I'd rather opt out.

Do I want to pay (through the capitation grant- which is comprised of monies from the registration fee) for students to engage in what appear to be the furthering of personal agendas and indulgence of over-inflated egos. I'll opt out please. Let the SU strike, and I'll be the very first person there. I'll stand outside Cathal's office until June, and ensure I am as disruptive to him as he can only hope to be toward to the current government.

'Not in my name'

Unregistered.

Who is "Horan"?

dan719

dan719 wrote: »

Can you state that you have never taken advantage of any of the services of the Fianna Fail government currently in power? Does that mean, that for the rest of your life you must agree with all decisions made by Fianna Fail?

I've no issue with anyone criticising the SU. I personally don't have any association with it or have had anything to do with it for coming on for a good few years. But my point of view is that there is far more positives with any SU to outweigh the negatives and that the services it provides, even if you hand-pick the ones you use, would dramatically shrink if the option was available. Bit of a means to an end there I suppose.

As for how to leave, I don't believe it's possible without going into murky legal waters. I don't think the SU is the same thing as a club or association as in the 'freedom of association' rule, but I suppose that's all a matter of interpretation.

But sure what do I know these days.

Jonathan

Unregistered. wrote: »

Who is "Horan"?

I would assume Cathal Horan

dan719

Dónal wrote: »

I've no issue with anyone criticising the SU. I personally don't have any association with it or have had anything to do with it for coming on for a good few years. But my point of view is that there is far more positives with any SU to outweigh the negatives and that the services it provides, even if you hand-pick the ones you use, would dramatically shrink if the option was available. Bit of a means to an end there I suppose.

As for how to leave, I don't believe it's possible without going into murky legal waters. I don't think the SU is the same thing as a club or association as in the 'freedom of association' rule, but I suppose that's all a matter of interpretation.

But sure what do I know these days.

3. Membership
Membership shall be given to:
(a) All students of the University who have paid capitation fees.
(b) Sabbatical Officers of the Union.

And I disagree, I feel those services which are essential to the identity of the SU could easily be provided through the college directly.

Above is the section of the SU constitution dealing with membership. Since it seems impossible to leave the union otherwise, I am willing to start a petiton for a referendum to have this changed to ' membership shall be provided to all students of the university who wish to become members of the SU and have paid dues required to become a member.' I also believe a section should be included allowing any member to leave the union, required all debts to the union have been repaid. Unless of course, someone would like to offer any advise on a simpler method of terminating membership?

ilovemybrick

dan719 wrote: »

'any member may speak at council....only class reps may propose and vote on motions'.( I have read the SU constitution and have very much familiarised myself with it's workings- if only all class reps could say the same).

Ne'er a truer word said. However you missed one particular piece.

Any 10 students can bring a motion and can speak for it. (if needs be there is a precedent that allows the required 10 signatures to be gathered partially at council. ie that you have 6 and you get 4 more at council)

I agree your class is not being represented fairly if the class reps voted for something that is in direct opposition to the views of your class. Did you confront them on it? and if so what was their response?

dan719

dan719 wrote: »

And I disagree, I feel those services which are essential to the identity of the SU could easily be provided through the college directly.

The SU is an effective micro organisation. It does fantastic work at the college level. Stuck for money- it'll give you a loan. Chose the wrong course? It can help you through the transfer process and so on.

Ah, I see. Since we're now on to talking about the whole point of having the SU in the first place... I could go through the various services that I remember being in place from my time in the SU but really, my answer to this is that there is no way in hell that there would be the services that are there at the moment for students by the SU if College was in charge of providing them.

Unregistered.

jmccrohan wrote: »

I would assume Cathal Horan

That's what I thought, only I didn't think he had an office!


EDIT: I see dan719's edit now.

scruttocks

ilovemybrick wrote: »

Ne'er a truer word said. However you missed one particular piece.

Any 10 students can bring a motion and can speak for it. (if needs be there is a precedent that allows the required 10 signatures to be gathered partially at council. ie that you have 6 and you get 4 more at council)

This presumes that one wants to involve oneself with the SU. If dan719 doesn't, then it's not fair for his name to be appropriated to legitimise the stance of the SU on the grounds that if he doesn't want to be part of it, he can get 9 mates together and speak in front of hundreds of people. The transaction costs are not negligible.

I agree your class is not being represented fairly if the class reps voted for something that is in direct opposition to the views of your class. Did you confront them on it? and if so what was their response?

The issue isn't that he isn't being represented, it's that the views of the class reps are assumed to be his, despite the fact that he wants no hand, act or part in the SU. He doesn't have a responsibility to tell the SU how he feels on an issue because he doesn't want them to represent him.

dan719

ilovemybrick wrote: »

Ne'er a truer word said. However you missed one particular piece.

Any 10 students can bring a motion and can speak for it. (if needs be there is a precedent that allows the required 10 signatures to be gathered partially at council. ie that you have 6 and you get 4 more at council)

I agree your class is not being represented fairly if the class reps voted for something that is in direct opposition to the views of your class. Did you confront them on it? and if so what was their response?

Fantastic, so would my interpretation be correct that I have two avenues avaliable;

a) That I submit the required 500 signatures required to change the constitution (via a referendum) to allow for an 'opt out' clause.
b) I present a motion to hold a referendum which must be passed by 2/3rds of the council present?.

Wonder which is more likely.:rolleyes:

@Donal. What convinces you the college i so malignant and the SU so benign?

ilovemybrick

dan719 wrote: »

@Donal. What convinces you the college i so malignant and the SU so benign?

Experience.

dan719

ilovemybrick wrote: »

Experience.

Would you care to elaborate?

Let's assume that SU class reps all become reps to organise parties and further the aims of their class as a whole. (Not something I agree with..think power trip).

Is it easier for a class rep to organise parties and so on when they have really irked the SU...upset the applecart so to speak.I.e. Put forward motions questioning the legitamacy of the SU, or disagreeing with current policy. Or is it much easier for a rep to 'go with the flow' so to speak, and become a mouthpiece for the current sabbaticals?

How about a far more self-interested class rep? A 'hack' as it were, whom from first year on, is thinking only about becoming SU pres one day. Is it better to make allies, or possible enemies? It seems better to be the the SU's 'annointed' as opposed to the outsider candidate.

More generally, what incentive does a class rep have to truely represent his/her class. Much better to become 'pally' with other class reps, and ensure one will be elected to conevener/E.C and so on, as opposed to worrying about the elections for Rep the following year.

What incentive does a rep have to offer diverse opinion unless it is to further his/her own position within the union? Doesn't seem very benign to me.

godtabh

Dónal wrote: »

This is massively off topic, but can you honestly state that you've never used any of the services the SU offer for students?

What services do the offer? I dont think I have used any of them knowing that they were su services

d93c2inhxfok4y

I dont want to go getting in on this argument (good ol sitting on the fence) but just for the record, I doubt that the SU would vote against people being able to opt out of the SU should they so wish at all. I'd say if you or any class rep brought it to council that it'd be passed.

r14

Dónal wrote: »

As for how to leave, I don't believe it's possible without going into murky legal waters. I don't think the SU is the same thing as a club or association as in the 'freedom of association' rule, but I suppose that's all a matter of interpretation.

Just cause it is a student body doesn't make it any different to any other union. Freedom of association also means freedom of dissociation - Constitutional right as confirmed by Educational Co. of Ireland Ltd v. Fitzpatrick (No. 2), I]1961[/I IR 345.

The union can't force you to be a member so they really should allow a mechanism for people to leave. It is a constitutional right so it doesn't matter what the SU say on the matter.

Time Magazine

r14 wrote: »

Just cause it is a student body doesn't make it any different to any other union. Freedom of association also means freedom of dissociation - Constitutional right as confirmed by Educational Co. of Ireland Ltd v. Fitzpatrick (No. 2), I]1961[/I IR 345.

The union can't force you to be a member so they really should allow a mechanism for people to leave. It is a constitutional right so it doesn't matter what the SU say on the matter.

I may well be mistaken here, but I believe you're a few years out of date. I have heard that courts have ruled that students' unions should be classified as student services rather than unions per se. Right to disassociation therefore does not apply. As I said, that's stated on a huge disclaimer of second-hand information.

kearnsr

kearnsr wrote: »

What services do the offer? I dont think I have used any of them knowing that they were su services

Well you could have a look at what's mentioned here: http://www.tcdsu.org/

And there are a lot of local issues influenced by the SU.

Most obvious service that's there would be the shop and offices, and the tours and stuff for Freshers' Week on campus. Nights out, free condoms, free pens, free pigs...

Cantab.

Joining the SU is like getting baptised.

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic. You can't just "leave" (unless you get yourself ex-communicated).

The union levy tacked onto the bottom of your annual student levy invoice is totally optional, yet very few students do anything about it.

Cantab.

kearnsr wrote: »

What services do the offer? I dont think I have used any of them knowing that they were su services

The student services that matter are run by professionals, not some gimp dressed up as a giant sperm for the day (sponsored by a condom company, of course).

The GSU are a much more mature organisation with intellectual aims. The SU are quite frankly, a bunch of layabout jokers whose ultimate middle class experience lifestyles are funded largely by the taxpayer. The SU mystery tour bus trip is a prime example of union idiocy. Puking all over small towns and causing a breach of the peace one night and the next day they're sitting round the College board room table talking about installing jonnie machines in the jacks.

ilovemybrick

Cantab. wrote: »

The union levy tacked onto the bottom of your annual student levy invoice is totally optional, yet very few students do anything about it.

Nope. That is the USI levy. The funding for TCDSU comes from the capitation fee and as such the breakdown is not public information.

Cantab.

ilovemybrick wrote: »

Nope. That is the USI levy. The funding for TCDSU comes from the capitation fee and as such the breakdown is not public information.

The union levy is totally optional.

EGaffney

The Union is inherently going to be wasteful due to the Class Rep/Ents/Officers churn. Far too many decisions are made by people low down the hierarchy, or made to make the Union "fun" - actually a misunderstanding of its role in a University with separate bodies for societies and clubs. The subsidies to the shops are a case in point - there are tons of shops around Trinity. Also in this light Ents is pretty much a useless office if it doesn't make a profit, and no you can't include popular social events that the Union doesn't actually run. I am surprised that the Union is not voluntary - I wouldn't have withdrawn but I know many who would.

starn

Cantab. wrote: »

The union levy is totally optional.

Well how do I go about opting out of it next year

Boston

The fee isn't optional but it is avoidable, there's a difference. If you pay by bank giro, simply don't pay the 8 euro. You will be allowed to register as normal. I know this because people who have their registration fee paid for by grant don't have the USI levy paid for, resulting in one person I know simply not paying the 8 euro.

Unregistered.

dan719 wrote: »

Is it easier for a class rep to organise parties and so on when they have really irked the SU...upset the applecart so to speak.I.e. Put forward motions questioning the legitamacy of the SU, or disagreeing with current policy. Or is it much easier for a rep to 'go with the flow' so to speak, and become a mouthpiece for the current sabbaticals?

How about a far more self-interested class rep? A 'hack' as it were, whom from first year on, is thinking only about becoming SU pres one day. Is it better to make allies, or possible enemies? It seems better to be the the SU's 'annointed' as opposed to the outsider candidate.

I think you're just making assumptions on this, have you ever been to council? If one were to "climb the SU ladder", so to speak, then they need to stand out and be recognised not go with the flow. For exmaple, Cathal Horan, EMS Assistant Faculty Convenor who was a candiate for SU Pres has spoken against motions that were proposed by the likes of Cathal Reilly and Hugh Suillivan.

(Fair enough, he wasn't elected but he was damn close)

ilovemybrick

Cantab. wrote: »

The union levy is totally optional.

No it really is not. The USI levy which is the added 8 ( i think) euro that is on the fee payment form is optional. The funding for TCDSU us not. It is payed from the capitation fee one must pay and this is not optional.

Unregistered.

ilovemybrick wrote: »

No it really is not. The USI levy which is the added 8 ( i think) euro that is on the fee payment form is optional. The funding for TCDSU us not. It is payed from the capitation fee one must pay and this is not optional.

It is avoidable....

Boston wrote: »

The fee isn't optional but it is avoidable, there's a difference. If you pay by bank giro, simply don't pay the 8 euro. You will be allowed to register as normal. I know this because people who have their registration fee paid for by grant don't have the USI levy paid for, resulting in one person I know simply not paying the 8 euro.

@ilovemybrick: The €8 is divided between the USI and the TCDSU, is it not? €5 to TCDSU and €3 to USI (or vice versa).

Unregistered.

Unregistered. wrote: »

It is avoidable....

@ilovemybrick: The €8 is divided between the USI and the TCDSU, is it not? €5 to TCDSU and €3 to USI (or vice versa).

There's a big difference in this - this money is (or was at least) ringfenced for USI related stuff only. So the affiliation fees, the USI Congress, National Councils etc.

Not paying this (as it is optional) will not mean you're not paying for TCDSU, it will mean that you're not paying for membership of the Union of Students in Ireland. The capitation money that the SU gets comes from the Registration Fee, which is most definitely not optional.

shay_562

D&#243 wrote: »

Well you could have a look at what's mentioned here: http://www.tcdsu.org/

Well, I could, except that that site is hopelessly out of date (see the "Your Welfare" section, which offers Una Faulkner's office hours from last year's Trinity Term, or the elections section, which is still proudly proclaiming last year's polls), badly designed (404s for the "Student Travel Card" section among others) and not exactly brimming with information for the rest of it (the Ents section comprises of "Welcome to the Ents section!"). I'm not anti-SU, but that site is hardly a ringing endorsement of it.

Don't get me wrong - I think the SU has a disproportionately large amount of self-important, insular **** who care more about their own agendas than anything to do with student welfare (and don't have the decency to play out their little wannabe-powerbroker games via a club or society where they don't have to lie openly about how much/little they care about the student body), but I think there's enough decent people in it that it usually justifies its existence. While the case-work taken on by the Education and Welfare officers may be doubling up a little on the role of college tutors and the college counselling service, the more safety nets in those areas the better, and if another student is more approachable than a tutor, or if a tutor is failing in some way, the SU can do something good there. The role of the SU and people involved with it in helping international students or organising environmental campaigns or LGBT-rights stuff is all good. While I'm not sure how much power or lobbying ability the SU has within the college or in the world at large (I'm guessing not much) I still think it's good that there exists a body that at least attempts to act in the interest of students, and to act as a watchdog on the college and on the government. I think the dangers of not having that outweigh the problems caused by the cluster****ery we see a lot of the time from the SU (for example, the shambolic 'silent protest'). We may not always agree with it - hell, quite the opposite - but there's a solid argument behind having a Union, both in terms of protecting the minority of students who have serious problems during college and for the protection of the majority.

So while I'd be in favour of massively paring down the Union (eliminate the Record, Ents and all that **** for starters), I'd question attempts to leave it altogether. Dan, you compared it to the Fianna Fail party, asking if people have to be part of that even if they don't like what it's doing. The answer is no, but the question is wrong - rather, you should be asking if people should be allowed to opt out of the state if they don't like what the current incarnation of the government is doing. Should they be allowed to refuse to pay taxes, even though those taxes help people who have the greatest needs (by funding hospitals etc) and even though having a state is often necessary for the country to function, even if the halfwits running it are often less than optimal? I'd say no. I don't have the energy to rant too much about collective action problems and the tragedy of the commons, but basically, if everyone could easily opt out, most people would, and everyone would end up worse off in the long-run, but no one would bother putting their own money in because why should they when everyone else won't bother doing it too?

(God, I can't believe I just became the SU hack who pops up to defend the SU. I think I need to go shower or something...)

ilovemybrick

Unregistered. wrote: »

@ilovemybrick: The €8 is divided between the USI and the TCDSU, is it not? €5 to TCDSU and €3 to USI (or vice versa).

Nope. Im not sure of the mechanics but I seem to recall that college in fact charges an amount to manage the collection of this levy with the rest going directly to USI/USI related activities.

TCDSU does not get this money, the SU is funded directly from the capitation fee in addition to the money it generates through advertising, sponsorship and in past years ENTS.

ilovemybrick

shay_562 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong - I think the SU has a disproportionately large amount of self-important, insular **** who care more about their own agendas than anything to do with student welfare (and don't have the decency to play out their little wannabe-powerbroker games via a club or society where they don't have to lie openly about how much/little they care about the student body), but I think there's enough decent people in it that it usually justifies its existence.

True.

Cantab.

I'll be making a special effort not to pay the €8.

Why should I pay to bail out USIT and have promiscuity packs shoved in my face during fresher's week?

Boston

The condom goes on you penis not you head you silly catholic, no need to shove your face into the bag.

Cantab.

Boston wrote: »

The condom goes on you penis not you head you silly catholic, no need to shove your face into the bag.

It seems anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice.

Boston

Anti-cantab more like. But seriously, we love you, don't go changing.

Fad

Boston wrote: »

Anti-cantab more like. But seriously, we love you, don't go changing.

I knew a thread like this would draw him back.

Another opportunity to whine and vocalise just how pretentious* he is.



*Read-Difficult and Catholic.........

Cantab wrote:

promiscuity packs

*Shakes head*

shay_562

shay_562 wrote: »

Well, I could, except that that site is hopelessly out of date (see the "Your Welfare" section, which offers Una Faulkner's office hours from last year's Trinity Term, or the elections section, which is still proudly proclaiming last year's polls), badly designed (404s for the "Student Travel Card" section among others) and not exactly brimming with information for the rest of it (the Ents section comprises of "Welcome to the Ents section!"). I'm not anti-SU, but that site is hardly a ringing endorsement of it.

I agree on the state of the website, but it does given general headings - wait, didn't you say "what's wrong with it?" back in the sabbats thread? Maybe I'm mistaken.

(God, I can't believe I just became the SU hack who pops up to defend the SU. I think I need to go shower or something...)

You dark horse you. I was wondering who would be the first one to write a huge long reply alright - my money was on Danger Bob

shay_562

Boston wrote:

The condom goes on you penis not you head you silly catholic, no need to shove your face into the bag.

Would making a 'dickhead' joke about Cantab. here be cheap and easy? Probably. But should that really stop me...?

D&#243 wrote: »

wait, didn't you say "what's wrong with it?" back in the sabbats thread? Maybe I'm mistaken.

Yup, you are indeed mistaken. (I, for one, am horrified) I recall the question being asked, but it wasn't from me - if anything, I vaguely remember chipping in with questions about where the money spent on re-designing the site actually went.

You dark horse you. I was wondering who would be the first one to write a huge long reply alright - my money was on Danger Bob

Beat him to it this time - I guess I'm avoiding study more diligently than he is. And what can I say - three years in a row now of election campaigning, plus a brief class-rep-ship, something must have rubbed off on me.

godtabh

Cantab. wrote: »

I'll be making a special effort not to pay the €8.

Why should I pay to bail out USIT and have promiscuity packs shoved in my face during fresher's week?

Hahahahahahahahah

Ah wait **** there could be mini cantab's running around and we may have to put up with this **** for another generation