Would you or wouldnt you.

Zambia

Forgive me if this has been done before but a quick search found squat.

Verging of the gun crime thread its always been stated that the majority of serving members would not wish to carry firearms as standard. Plus there is already a fair amount of Armed Units if needed.

Coming from Belfast where the Police will never be unarmed in my lifetime, and thanks to recent events probably dressed in ceramic for some time. That said I would comfortably bet there are now more guns in Dublin(at least above ground) than the north in General. I would be curious to know would Southern Police actually now prefer to carry firearms?

eroo

Zambia232 wrote: »

Would you or wouldnt you.

I was expecting something completely different!:(:pac:


This has been debated a few times already. Maybe attach a poll so that the Gardai can vote?

Zambia

eroo wrote: »

This has been debated a few times already. Maybe attach a poll so that the Gardai can vote?

Thought it might have been what was the outcome?

Whitewater-AGS

If i could I would rather carry a firearm. I'd rather have it and never need to use it than not, as has already been shown in this country several times the criminals already dont care that your unarmed they'll fire anyway. I personally dont think the escalation theory holds any water i.e. if we get guns they get bigger guns.

gerire

Where's the Atari Jaguar option? Assuming a firearm includes a taser then yes, but a gun i'd vote no

the locust

eroo wrote: »

Would you wouldn't you? I was expecting something completely different!:(:pac: QUOTE]

Haha! week of nights when the chicks are comin out arseways from the clubs question!

Zambia

gerire wrote: »

Where's the Atari Jaguar option? Assuming a firearm includes a taser then yes, but a gun i'd vote no

Nope its a gun, no less lethal option

Hooch

Tazer yes, firearm no.

TheNog

At present there is no need for regular Gardai nationwide to be armed but within the likes of Limerick and Dublin I feel there still isnt. Not yet anyway. Now I say this as a member who is not stationed nor has been stationed in a city so my view is not a fully informed one.

I am a firm believer that non lethal weapons, such as tazer and/or CS, need to be explored and utilisied before any decision is made to fully arm the Force.

the locust

Not going into the use of force and the whole arm the gardai discussion and without opening the worm can...


... I believe that simply the presence of a glock/whatever on a police officers belt is a major crime prevention measure and would raise the standard of professionalism/training within Garda procedures etc.

So i say yes.

And yes i would pull the trigger if needed, but hopefully that never happens

FGR

I voted yes. The deterrent factor alone is worth the cost of each unit.

That said; a tazer may have the same effect.

donvito99

the locust wrote: »

... I believe that simply the presence of a glock/whatever on a police officers belt is a major crime prevention measure and would raise the standard of professionalism/training within Garda procedures etc.

I totally agree with your point that the introduction of firearms would positively effect training within AGS. Eg. first aid, negotiation, self defence etc.

However, I still wouldnt like to see uniformed members armed, I think that AGS can handle the situation with regards to gangland crime without the rollout of firearms.

I'd like to see members getting bullet proof vests though, IMO.

Whitewater-AGS

donvito99 wrote: »

I'd like to see members getting bullet proof vests though, IMO.

Well the vests we currently have are rated against 9mm and apparently a 356 magnum at close range. I dont fancy testing this or its stab proof ability though

gilly0512

Zambia232 wrote: »

Coming from Belfast where the Police will never be unarmed in my lifetime, and thanks to recent events probably dressed in ceramic for some time. That said I would comfortably bet there are now more guns in Dublin(at least above ground) than the north in General. I would be curious to know would Southern Police actually now prefer to carry firearms?

I'm actually quite interested to hear what our Met colleagues think here, as to my knowledge the UK is the only other country in the world where the regular police force are unarmed (excluding PSNI), so I was just wondering are there regular calls to arm the regular in the UK. Surely been a Police Officer in London is at the very least if not considerably more dangerous than been a Garda in Dublin/Limerick, so what is the view from across the water?

Manic Moran

There have been times when the Brits have armed beat police, it's officially at the discretion of the local Chief Constable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/986835.stm (Revolvers? I mean, really)

Without speaking on the current views of Brits (For obvious reasons) the history of armed British police is actually kindof interesting.

Many moons ago (i.e. early 19th century) the police were routinely unarmed. In the event that they really needed a gun, all they often did was ask a passing member of the public if they could borrow theirs, most gentlemen (used in the aristocratic sense as in person of status in the city) and some ladies did carry a pistol of some description. However, the disarming of the British Populace is a different topic.

By the late 19th century, some forces had sidearms available for issue, at the constable's discretion. If he wanted one, and the force had them available, he could carry one. He was not obliged to be armed.

By the 1930s, 'constable's discretion' turned into 'sergeant's discretion', and apparently the sergeants tended to be a bit stingy about issueing them out.

In the late 1950s the private citizenry were prohibited from carrying arms, it seems that in an interesting state of affairs, for almost 20 years the citizenry could be routinely armed whilst the majority of the police could not be.

But that's all beside the point at hand.

NTM

Hooch

gilly2308 wrote: »

I'm actually quite interested to hear what our Met colleagues think here, as to my knowledge the UK is the only other country in the world where the regular police force are unarmed (excluding PSNI), so I was just wondering are there regular calls to arm the regular in the UK. Surely been a Police Officer in London is at the very least if not considerably more dangerous than been a Garda in Dublin/Limerick, so what is the view from across the water?

You'll ave to try pm Metman for that. Dont think there are many more or at least many regular met users. Open to correction

eroo

nice guy always wrote: »

You'll ave to try pm Metman for that. Dont think there are many more or at least many regular met users. Open to correction

You appear to be correct unfortunately!

CharlieCroker

I voted yes. I would carry a pistol if that's what was issued but my first choice would be for a tazer because I dont want to kill someone, just to stop them killing me and i think a tazer can do that job just as well.

deadwood

I suppose i'd be less lethal with one of these on my belt alright.

It'd be interesting to compare the results of the poll with members service.

Zambia

I could not agree more with the level of training attached to firearms it certainly ups the level of responsibilty.

Here even to grasp the handle of the firearm could lead to an assault charge, if no justification existed.

Its strange to see so many votes for the Taser (even though its not an option).

I see tazers are a bit of a one shot deal when your adrenaline kicks of and things are hairy missing is certainly something you could easily do. A person can cover 10 metres in the time it takes to draw the weapon and fire. In that case the only weapon your left with is a battery wrapped in plastic.

I think it really comes into use when their is time to do so, for personnal protection its not even close to a firearm.

Trojan911

gilly2308 wrote: »

I'm actually quite interested to hear what our Met colleagues think here, as to my knowledge the UK is the only other country in the world where the regular police force are unarmed (excluding PSNI), so I was just wondering are there regular calls to arm the regular in the UK. Surely been a Police Officer in London is at the very least if not considerably more dangerous than been a Garda in Dublin/Limerick, so what is the view from across the water?

Some years ago there ware calls to arm the Service, however after a vote the majority were not in favour, me included. There are "authorised shots" in some areas (JonAnderton would be more specific in answering this as I believe he may be one).

I personally was against fully arming the Met and would still be if I still lived & worked in London. I would not trust some of my ex colleagues with a catapault let alone a firearm. There is also the cost of purchasing firearms, ammunition, continued training and range availability.

In conversation with an Inspector in Cork recently he is of the view that AGS should also not be fully armed more or less for the above reasons.

We both agreed with this and agreed the best way forward here would be to concentrate on upping the ERU & RSU's & rolling out the CS for everyday beat officers.

Hooch

deadwood wrote: »

It'd be interesting to compare the results of the poll with members service.

I have to agree with deadwood here. Dont mean to offend anyone but I would suspect that the yes voters are more junior members.

AGS has come a long way but has still maintained a fully unarmed uniform service. I personally dont agree with firearms being issued to uniform members. (and was once involved in incident where use of lethal force was seriously warranted and where collegues and myself were seriously injured, PLEASE DONT ASK)

Apart from this one incident I have never seen the need to use a firearm and I am in a busy station. For so long, with so little we have used our interpersonal skills to talk situations down without the use of force. I believe this skills are lost to some newer members and should be hamered back into them in the college.

The ERU and the newer RSU have being doing a great job and local d/gdaí are our immediate back up (but i do think more training for d/gdaí is needed)

Just my two cents guys......no backlash please:D

JonAnderton

Trojan911 wrote: »

Some years ago there ware calls to arm the Service, however after a vote the majority were not in favour, me included. There are "authorised shots" in some areas (JonAnderton would be more specific in answering this as I believe he may be one) .

I am, and i'm still here..just checking in on my mobile which is a pain to type on..will check in and give my two cents worth this evening.

sdanseo

nice guy always wrote: »

I have to agree with deadwood here. Dont mean to offend anyone but I would suspect that the yes voters are more junior members.

AGS has come a long way but has still maintained a fully unarmed uniform service. I personally dont agree with firearms being issued to uniform members. (and was once involved in incident where use of lethal force was seriously warranted and where collegues and myself were seriously injured, PLEASE DONT ASK)

Apart from this one incident I have never seen the need to use a firearm and I am in a busy station. For so long, with so little we have used our interpersonal skills to talk situations down without the use of force. I believe this skills are lost to some newer members and should be hamered back into them in the college.

The ERU and the newer RSU have being doing a great job and local d/gdaí are our immediate back up (but i do think more training for d/gdaí is needed)

Just my two cents guys......no backlash please:D

Outsiders point of view here - could it be fairly said (without giving details you don't want to of course), that if you had had your own firearms, yourself and you colleagues would not have been injured? If so how do you maitain the opinion that you should not have them as a matter of course?

Again I'm just a civillian but I like the unarmed factor that's practically unique here. The times I've had dealings with Gardaí (always on the right side of the law) I have to say I would feel a bit intimidated if they had a glock strapped to their hip.

Also a quick touch on the poll - are there really that many Gardaí here, or are others voting also? Seems like a lot of votes...

Hooch

sdonn_1 wrote: »

Outsiders point of view here - could it be fairly said (without giving details you don't want to of course), that if you had had your own firearms, yourself and you colleagues would not have been injured? If so how do you maitain the opinion that you should not have them as a matter of course?


Also a quick touch on the poll - are there really that many Gardaí here, or are others voting also? Seems like a lot of votes...

No it wouldnt have helped as it happened without warning and was over before we could reach for a baton not to mind a gun. We had a d/garda with us and he could not justify in that split second drawning it. One member seriously injured, two others injuried but not as bad.

Cant give more details as it would give away the incident and not interested in discussing it (sorry). If i thought for a second it would have stopped that incident then i would be voting yes, but it wouldnt.

Rules of engagement are also so that shots have to be shot at you before you can shoot back. thats the short vertion to keep members out of tribunals.

As for votes, not sure but there are a lot of members on boards but alot dont identify themselves.

eroo

As someone who wants to join AGS, I wouldn't feel comfortable stepping out from Templemore with a sidearm strapped to me. It's a lot of pressure and responsibility for a trainee. There's enough pressure in 'learning your trade', so to speak, without having the potential to be involved in a situation where you may have to choose whether to use lethal force on someone or not.

daithip

sdonn_1 wrote: »

Again I'm just a civillian but I like the unarmed factor that's practically unique here. The times I've had dealings with Gardaí (always on the right side of the law) I have to say I would feel a bit intimidated if they had a glock strapped to their hip.

Also a quick touch on the poll - are there really that many Gardaí here, or are others voting also? Seems like a lot of votes...

Have to agree with sdonn-1 here, I voted no and would hope I never have to carry a firearm while uniformed. Being originally from around the border I've had a number of dealings with the RUC/PSNI over the years just in ordinary every day policing, checkpoints etc. and there definitely is a feeling of intimidation when you are dealing with someone with a visible firearm strapped to his hip. I don't want Joe Public to feel the same when dealing with me.

the locust

eroo wrote: »

As someone who wants to join AGS, I wouldn't feel comfortable stepping out from Templemore with a sidearm strapped to me. It's a lot of pressure and responsibility for a trainee. There's enough pressure in 'learning your trade', so to speak, without having the potential to be involved in a situation where you may have to choose whether to use lethal force on someone or not.

I didn't feel comfortable leaving T'more with a baton on me. But Firearms?

Surely every other police trainee in the world does it? (except unarmed services i.e. Britain and Ireland).

I think the training would help raise your professionalism and its something that must be seen as a 'capability' that you have along side your interpersonal skills, spray, baton - its an option that compliments these, in that you can resort to an option to equally meet and if necessary neutralise a deadly threat that may be a serious risk to the public or yourself.

It is of course something that hopefully you will never have to use but is unfortunately becoming more necessary.

the locust

daithip wrote: »

Have to agree with sdonn-1 here, I voted no and would hope I never have to carry a firearm while uniformed. Being originally from around the border I've had a number of dealings with the RUC/PSNI over the years just in ordinary every day policing, checkpoints etc. and there definitely is a feeling of intimidation when you are dealing with someone with a visible firearm strapped to his hip. I don't want Joe Public to feel the same when dealing with me.

I grew up in the north and was immersed in the troubles (from neither 'side' by the way). But my point is that:- I was surrounded by firearms - pistols, submachine guns, rifles soldiers/ruc at checkpoints etc... Major overpolicing and use of force authorised on a big scale... Growing up in that I never had a fear, intimidation or nervousness about me til this day i feel fine when interacting with people with firearms i.e. authorities at foreign airports, police or armed gardai as i know they are the authorities and by an large i trust them. I don't think joe public would have any issue with it, i think by and large the ordinary decent people would support the gardai.
Its the criminal fraternity who would take humbrage to the concept.

daithip

the locust wrote: »

I grew up in the north and was immersed in the troubles (from neither 'side' by the way). But my point is that:- I was surrounded by firearms - pistols, submachine guns, rifles soldiers/ruc at checkpoints etc... Major overpolicing and use of force authorised on a big scale... Growing up in that I never had a fear, intimidation or nervousness about me til this day i feel fine when interacting with people with firearms i.e. authorities at foreign airports, police or armed gardai as i know they are the authorities and by an large i trust them. I don't think joe public would have any issue with it, i think by and large the ordinary decent people would support the gardai.
Its the criminal fraternity who would take humbrage to the concept.

As you said locust you unfortunately grew up with it, seeing it day in day out, for the rest of us south of the border, it was alien and totally different to what we were use to, that's my point! Hope more of the general public non AGS post their opinions.

G_R

daithip wrote: »

Hope more of the general public non AGS post their opinions.

i was going to stay out of it but since we were asked.....

as a member of the publc i would feel safer if Gardaí had guns in certain situations/areas i.e cities, airports (off the top of my head, there is more) I don't think there is a need for them outside cities. (however if it was a case of all or nothing i would defo say all).

Manic Moran

Again I'm just a civillian

<nitpick>Police (Except military police) are civilians. The term you seek is 'private citizen'</nitpick>

I do find it interesting that ordinarily only the two extremes are considered. Completely unarmed, as per UK, or armed to the teeth and routinely engaged in holster-draws and gun battles, US. Yet there are scores of civilised countries where the police are armed but do not make the US level. Japan, for example, I believe has a sytem that if the weapon is even drawn from the holster, a seal is broken which gets inspected at the end of the shift. If it's broken, a good reason is required. Very rarely do Japanese police use their sidearms. Similarly, you don't often hear of police gun violence in Germany, Belgium or France.

Similarly, there are comments which seem to focus on the gun as if it has some strange mind-altering properties. For example:

For so long, with so little we have used our interpersonal skills to talk situations down without the use of force. I believe this skills are lost to some newer members and should be hamered back into them in the college.

Does wearing a sidearm suddenly make your interpersonal skills decrease or vanish? Is there any reason why you need to suddenly reduce your interpersonal efforts and go for the gun? I can see no reason this should happen. Yet, should the interpersonal skills fail (or, like Ossory Road, never even have a chance to be used), it's always nice to have a backup option.

I think Locust has hit the nail on the head.

i.e. authorities at foreign airports, police or armed gardai as i know they are the authorities and by an large i trust them.

Really, has anyone suddenly felt less safe when they went to Rome on their holidays and they saw a Carabineri with a submachinegun? Let alone went up to a police officer on the NY Subway system to ask which train they wanted, just because he had a Glock? Are they afraid that the cop will suddenly swing around and lay down a hail of lead for no reason whatsoever? To give you an idea on just how much 'perceived authority' can affect one's opinion, you can use an interesting example from the US:

It is a little-known fact that in California, private citizens can walk around openly wearing a sidearm, without a license. It is automatically presumed that anyone wearing a gun must be a plain-clothes policeman, as everybody 'knows' only cops can carry guns. Many Californians, particularly in the cities, hate guns, and have their own prejudices. They see, maybe, an 18-year-old black guy in dreadlocks walking down the street with a gun, they'll probably freak out and call the police. They see someone like me, early 30s, white, clean cut with a semi-auto in a hip holster, they nod, assume I'm a cop, and go about their business. Yet if, for some reason they ask "Are you cop" and you say "no", they suddenly get a lot more nervous. The gun itself has nothing to do with it, it's simply a matter of the perceived authority to wear one.

Where am I going with this? How someone reacts to an armed Gard is, to me, a direct correlation to that Gard's interpersonal skills already mentioned. If he trusts the Gard to be fair, impartial and professional, the gun is irrelevant. If he does not believe the Gard to be so, you're not going to get your job done regardless, the gun is, again, irrelevant.

NTM

Hooch

Manic Moran wrote: »

I do find it interesting that ordinarily only the two extremes are considered. Completely unarmed, as per UK, or armed to the teeth and routinely engaged in holster-draws and gun battles, US.

Firsty the UK are not completely unarmed. Ireland is the only unarmed uniform police service in the world. We are unable to carry a firearm while in uniform. In the Uk they are.

In relation to interpersonal skills these are being lost. More and more younger members are comming out with the notion that power and speaking down to people gain you respect when it is speaking TO people and understanding them that does.

Take for instance the NYPD. I have on occasions asked for directions from them and have found them to be very hostile. They rule by force of arms and most, but not all, by no means have any interpersonal skills. These people however once your intoduced to them are very friendly to you as one officer to another.

I have just checked the web but cant find any studies to back up firearms reducing people skills so i cant scientificly comment on this, although my professional opinion and experience indicates that a lot of people change when given a firearm.

The big issue is that we have lasted so long without firearms on uniform officers, do we really need them. I would ask members here to think how many times you would ever have reason to draw a firearm or use it. I have the misfortune of experiencing that and i still dont want to be armed.

I dont think we, in this country, can say that a gun is irrelevant. We do not have a gun culture in the state. Most normal run of the mill joe public have never seen a side arm.

We police the state with the permission of the people. Our greatest asset is the people of Ireland for all types of info. I am of the firm opinion that the vast majority of the public would prefer an unarmed service which can be seen by how nervious everyone is at an armed checkpoint in the country. I wouldnt like to see the people of Ireland nervious to approach us.

Just to add, I have no fear of firearms and i grew up with them. I feel completely safe around firearms. I also have aspirations to join the RSU in the near future

eroo

nice guy always wrote: »

Take for instance the NYPD. I have on occasions asked for directions from them and have found them to be very hostile. They rule by force of arms and most, but not all, by no means have any interpersonal skills. These people however once your intoduced to them are very friendly to you as one officer to another.

First off great post!

Couldn't agree more regards US police officers. Over the years I have encountered NYPD, Boston PD, Chicago PD and LAPD.. whether it's asking for directions or asking could we take a picture of their patrol car. While it all depends on personality, I have found most officers to be quite defensive and quite stand offish. Nicest guys I met were NYPD in several cases. No problem chatting with us, even being as nice as to pose for a photo with a very young eroo! But from day one they have been taught to rely on their firearm when it comes to most aspects of policing.

Even watching US police shows, you can see that a lot of them treat victims/suspects/member's of public all the same.. they all have the potential to be a threat. Now that is understandable in some parts of the US, but I don't see how it could crossover over to Ireland where gun ownership is very low.

Manic Moran

Most normal run of the mill joe public have never seen a side arm.

Perhaps, but on the other hand, most normal run-of-the-mill joe public routinely see assault rifles when cash deliveries are being made. Do people run in fear when the Army rolls up with an armoured car? Do they decide to not go into the bank at that particular moment and time, and come back when they think it's 'safer'? The public does have routine exposure to firearms worn by uniformed servants of the State, I don't see a sidearm for the police as being that much of a culture shock when it comes to "Oh my God, a gun!"

NTM

Hooch

Manic Moran wrote: »

Perhaps, but on the other hand, most normal run-of-the-mill joe public routinely see assault rifles when cash deliveries are being made. Do people run in fear when the Army rolls up with an armoured car? Do they decide to not go into the bank at that particular moment and time, and come back when they think it's 'safer'?

NTM

Your arguement is flawed im afraid compaired to your first post.

Firstly no armoured vehicles used. Its 4X4s.

Secondly from a member who was stationed in a Divisional HQ and did cash escorts yes people did stay away......as the banks are closed during the time the delievery is being completed. And yes most people look in shock at whats happening and have often asked ''is everything ok Garda??''. Firearms in this county is just too ailen.

Not trying to offend you but maybe you should come back to Ireland. Its so much more different from the US as im sure you remember. The public perception of guns is the same as it was in the 1950s, ''my god why do they have those guns:eek:!!!!!''

cushtac

nice guy always wrote: »

Rules of engagement are also so that shots have to be shot at you before you can shoot back. thats the short vertion to keep members out of tribunals.

That's not the case at all, firearms can be used if there is an immediate danger to Gardaí or the public. The Lusk incident being a case in point.

Hooch

cushtac wrote: »

That's not the case at all, firearms can be used if there is an immediate danger to Gardaí or the public. The Lusk incident being a case in point.

Read the quoted post again. To keep members out of a tribunal. Members in Lusk were the ERU who were on an active operation and who had good intelligence and were prepared for whatever the outcome. Great tactical training makes a difference situations like that. Armed members must make the split second decision and very few if any will draw a firearm. As per your post yes immediate danger to members or public then use of lethal force is authorised......on paper. Define it. Everythings grand until someone loses an eye:)
I havint carried a firearm so maybe clada or DJ can give their insight into it was holders.

Manic Moran

nice guy always wrote: »

Firstly no armoured vehicles used. Its 4X4s.

I said 'with', not 'in'
Or is the cash started to be transported in bags in the Nissans?

If the banks are closed, then so be it. I must admit to never having to had to enter a bank during a cash delivery. On the other hand, I don't recall people crossing to the other side of the street either. That said, I seem to recall going on a training 'foot patrol' in Longford town once, (back in the FN days last millenium!) and no particular problems were caused that I noticed. (Granted, a single annectode doesn't exactly prove anything).

Still, I'd be surprised if any 'gun shock' lasted longer than a couple of weeks. The transition period to getting used to them can be used as a cause for reflection on how society has let itself deteriorate to the level that they might be considered appropriate for the Gardai to have.

Not trying to offend you but maybe you should come back to Ireland. Its so much more different from the US as im sure you remember. The public perception of guns is the same as it was in the 1950s, ''my god why do they have those guns:eek:!!!!!''

I'm back routinely enough. I'm in Dublin Thursday, as it happens.

NTM

Hooch

You are an exception to the rule, old FCA i would guess??? You are accustomed to firearms. Joe Public not.
I have to disagree. The effects of firearms carried by every uniform member in this country would go on for a very long time.

I think your going way past my point. Why fix something if its not broke. I take pride in our unarmed force. We are doing quite well without them. The NYPD made a comment to me last week in New York. They couldnt imagine policing without smith and wesson by their side. They quoted De Niro in his new movie, ''most respect the badge, everyone respects the gun''. I just dont want our country to end up like this.

We have one of the most unique services in the world. One of the most respected, well trained and highly educated (well most are:rolleyes:) services. Why change it.

G_R

if the force was to become armed, their policing doesnt nessescarily have to become as gun reliant and forcefull as the U.S.

in every other european country (cept UK of couse) the Police are armed and they dont threaten to shoot anyone who doesnt follow their instructions. Dont mean ta generalise but Americans are fairly OTT in general.

I dont see why Gardaí cant have guns, but not use them unless absolutley nessescary. Like if a Garda had to fill out 10 pages of reports every time he drew his weapon, he wouldnt be drawing it very often, only when completely nessescary.

Whitewater-AGS

I agree just because you carry a Gun does not mean you have to draw it at every incident. Dont think it would make me any more or less approachable, people still approach the DDU and speak with them, make complaints/statements all while they have a firearm on their side. Also having a gun wont make me mute all of a sudden I'd still be able to talk, and talk my way out or around things just like i do now. We have been an unarmed force for some time and change is sometimes a scary thing in this job but so is the fact that criminals will and have shot unarmed uniformed members, and having one name on a role of honor is one to many imho and a firearm is just another form of defence/protection for a member.

Manic Moran

nice guy always wrote: »

Why fix something if its not broke. I take pride in our unarmed force. We are doing quite well without them.

Maybe I should expand on my position. I actually agree with you on this. I don't think that the situation has gotten to the level where all Gardai need to be armed as a matter of course. (You might be able to argue an exception for some parts of Limerick or Dublin, much like that Nottingham arming, I guess, but that's just an offhand comment on reputation, not knowledge.). You're looking at adding all sorts of logistical, training and expense requirements that I don't think are justified by the situation on the ground.

However, I think many are looking at it from the wrong point of view. I think the real issue should be "We need to look at reasons as to why Gardai should be armed", not "We need to look for reasons why they should not be." I do not believe that many of the reasons advanced for 'why they shouldn't be' are based on sound reasoning and are, themselves, based as much upon prejudice.

Police will only rely on people 'respecting the gun' if they choose to do so. That is an issue of training and philosophy. Again, we keep going to the US example. Has anyone heard anything of that sort of nature proposed by the Australian police? A sidearm is a simple tool, no more animate than pepper spray or the baton. Do Gardai rely on using their baton to beat people up to enforce respect? They will only confuse the tool with the person wearing it if that officer fails to make the distinction himself.

If or when the situation on the streets gets to the level that it is sensible for all gardai to be armed, then the cultural changes which follow will be inevitable and I think are irrelevant. Joe Public will get used to seeing police who are armed just as they get used to it when they go on a Stag Weekend in Paris. My concern is that people are anthropomorphising the gun, that somehow it takes on 'evil' qualities of its own and manages to take posession of the faculties of the person wearing. It has no mind-control device, and no will. If you're a good cop now, trusted by the public with a good relationship with the citizenry in your area, there's no reason to believe you won't be a good cop with a sidearm, still trusted by the public unless you, the officer, change your behaviour.

NTM

eroo

Whitewater, have you any idea how many unarmed Gardai have been shot in the last 10 years?:)

Whitewater-AGS

eroo wrote: »

Whitewater, have you any idea how many unarmed Gardai have been shot in the last 10 years?:)

The fact that I know of two is enough added to that the two instances I can of think off the top of my head where marked patrol cars have come under fire.

eroo

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

The fact that I know of two is enough added to that the two instances I can of think off the top of my head where marked patrol cars have come under fire.

Do you think if those Gardai were armed the outcome would have been different?

Whitewater-AGS

Perhaps if they had the ability to return fire, or maybe if armed, the suspects wouldn't have chanced if for fear of coming off worse. The truth being its an impossible question to answer

Hooch

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Perhaps if they had the ability to return fire, or maybe if armed, the suspects wouldn't have chanced if for fear of coming off worse. The truth being its an impossible question to answer

One member of the roll of honour was a personal friend of mine. He did not have a chance to return fire. Having a firearm did not help him nor his collegue with him.

Last im going to say on this issue fellas. I thinks its run ots course for me. Its down to personal judgement, experience and service. In the end if we are ever armed we wont have a choice but to put the sig on the belt.

deadwood

So, people carry and use guns.

I know a lot more guards that have been cut with knives, bottles etc. Does this mean we sould carry knives too?

Should I spit/puke back too?

Zambia

deadwood wrote: »

So, people carry and use guns.

I know a lot more guards that have been cut with knives, bottles etc. Does this mean we sould carry knives too?

Should I spit/puke back too?

If someone spits, you take them down by hand
If someone fights back with hands you pull a Baton/spray
If someone pulls a trolley bar, you pull a firearm.
If someone pulls a shottie, you pull the trigger

This is not some fair fight as officers of the law I would expect AGS to be given the capability to subdue an offender without the need to risk themselves if possible. I would always maintain a level of force above that displayed to me. As a former tax payer it cost me medical and overtime when you went down on duty.

It is always the offender who sets the levels of force in the altercation not the officer. I think Manic is right AGS should be looking to the Dutch ,german and other ec countries for guidance on this not the US.

That's if they want to consider the matter fully. Which I don't believe they do; its seems to me the upper echlons think they went though their careers with nothing more than a smile and a truncheon so you should man up and go through it to.

deadwood

Zambia232 wrote: »

If someone spits, you take them down by hand
If someone fights back with hands you pull a Baton/spray
If someone pulls a trolley bar, you pull a firearm.
If someone pulls a shottie, you pull the trigger

Trolley bar? are they chewie?

A shottie? is that a sawnoffie gunnie?


Look. I don't like getting into the whole firearms thing. I was shot at very badly once.