Scottish Independance? Still on track?

Dannyboy83

The SNP were planning to have a referendum in 2010 on the issue of Scottish Independance.

Is this still viable, considering the economic crisis & RBS?
The English papers seem to be taking every possible opportunity to insult the Scots and get the boot in.

How do you believe it will affect NI?

LordSutch

The whole Scottish independence thing seems to have gone very quiet since the downturn in the economy took hold, so who can blame Alex & Co for keeping stum on Scottish seperation > they'd be crazy to break away from GB in the middle of the worst recession since God knows when!

If the Scots really do vote for seperation then so be it, many in Scotland will be very happy (initially), & many in England will also be very very happy (initially) . . . but when the reality sinks in, & when the UK has been crossed off the 'G8' list, when the UK has been formally erased from the EU (needing to re-apply as two new countries)? with 'Great Britain' no longer existing!!! > the UK no longer existing? Scotland emerging as a new Country in its own right, > with England Wales & NI doing their own thing seperately :cool:

The above is all hypothetical fairytailes, I cant see it happening anytime soon, if ever, and if it does I cant see it doing Scotland or England any favours on the World Stage.

magick

Im interested, how much % do people in England pay in taxes for the Union?

Peronally id like to see Scotland get independence from England, it should be a smooth painless transition of power.

dlofnep

Scotland has a wealth of natural resources to ensure a sustainable lone economy. If the Scottish people want independance, I would support it to the fullest. It would further eradicate the sham that is the UK. North would eventually follow - Although I would have my doubts as to whether Wales would ever detach itself from England.

Kev_ps3

No country should be ruled by another. I hope Scotland gains Independance. It will be a great and historic day.

Deedsie

I was talking to a few Scots last week. And they would be fairly patriotic and they said they were gonna vote against it. Its a really bad time to hold the referendum from an SNP point of view.

The Scots could be a very strong country in there own right.

But it should be up to the people of Scotland. If they want independence id be delighted for them, but they should keep there ties with England & Wales in a UK council of some sort.

Would it actually have an affect on Northern Ireland?

Dannyboy83

If Labour are ousted and the Tories get in, I think there will probably be considerably more demand for it.

Hookey

Scotland gets a net inflow of capital from the rest of the UK, the South East of England basically keeps the rest of the place afloat. And you can't assume Scotland would automatically get oil/fishing rights all around its territories; it would have to renegotiate everything. At the moment all the noise about Scottish independence is coming from England...

Fratton Fred

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The SNP were planning to have a referendum in 2010 on the issue of Scottish Independance.

Is this still viable, considering the economic crisis & RBS?
The English papers seem to be taking every possible opportunity to insult the Scots and get the boot in.

How do you believe it will affect NI?

If scotland had been independant., either RBS would have gone bust, or Scotland would.

dlofnep wrote: »

Scotland has a wealth of natural resources to ensure a sustainable lone economy. If the Scottish people want independance, I would support it to the fullest. It would further eradicate the sham that is the UK. North would eventually follow - Although I would have my doubts as to whether Wales would ever detach itself from England.

Not that you have any alterior motives of course. explain why the UK is a sham? what is wrong with countries joining to form an alliance such as the UK? The Scots have done very nicely out of the alliance, as good of not better than the english.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

No country should be ruled by another. I hope Scotland gains Independance. It will be a great and historic day.

That nasty English PM tellin those poor Scots what to do. the alternative isn't much better either, the very english Mr Cameron :rolleyes:

Remind me again, where exactly is the Englsih parliament?

Deedsie wrote: »

I was talking to a few Scots last week. And they would be fairly patriotic and they said they were gonna vote against it. Its a really bad time to hold the referendum from an SNP point of view.

The SNP know that, which is why it isn't going to happen. they have just awarded themselves free NHS prescriptions, like in Northern Ireland and Wales. They can afford to do this because their budget is fixed unlike in England who, ironically, can't afford free prescriptions. The same applies to University places.

Hookey wrote: »

Scotland gets a net inflow of capital from the rest of the UK, the South East of England basically keeps the rest of the place afloat. And you can't assume Scotland would automatically get oil/fishing rights all around its territories; it would have to renegotiate everything. At the moment all the noise about Scottish independence is coming from England...

The free prescriptions was the last straw to be honest. people in England are starting to get fed up with the Scots, Welsh and Irish taking them for a ride and getting nothing back in return. Services in England are being cut, yet in Scotland their budget is fixed so they get the same amount of money.

Dannyboy83

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If Scotland had been independent., either RBS would have gone bust, or Scotland would.

Well, they could've got a bail out from Germany, like Ireland?
Or perhaps SNP and Labour are so different that they would have had the relevant regulators etc.?

Perhaps they would not be involved in a war that they didn't want?
Perhaps they would have a strong independent voice in the EU and the world instead of a Provence of England?
These are the reasons I keep hearing.

I believe the threat of Bankruptcy was what forced them into the Act of Union in the beginning anyway.

Not that you have any alterior motives of course. explain why the UK is a sham? what is wrong with countries joining to form an alliance such as the UK?

The Scots want equality as do they Welsh, as did the Irish.
I'm not sure if the Welsh could stand alone, but the Scots definitely could.

Perhaps if they moved parliament from Westminister to Edinburgh?
Would the English be ok with that?

The Scots have done very nicely out of the alliance, as good of not better than the english.

Here is the formula:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_Formula

This would seem to agree
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1584283/Lord-Barnett-admits-scheme-is-not-formula.html


This would seem to disagree:
http://www.scottishpolitics.org/scotching/greatdeception.html

In truth, I don't honestly know.

Its said: "look how lucky they are, they get this and that"
But then they are begrudged it if they do get it.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5941456.ece

That nasty English PM tellin those poor Scots what to do. the alternative isn't much better either, the very english Mr Cameron :rolleyes:

Cameron, what about Cameron? Isn't Salmond the alternative? The SNP leader?

Remind me again, where exactly is the English parliament?

Given that the Scotts make up 9% of the UK, and the Welsh make up about 7%, and Northern Ireland is just a social welfare state anyway, that means that 85% is focused on England.

The SNP know that, which is why it isn't going to happen. they have just awarded themselves free NHS prescriptions, like in Northern Ireland and Wales. They can afford to do this because their budget is fixed unlike in England who, ironically, can't afford free prescriptions. The same applies to University places.

I think this is evident of the type of politics they want to pursue.
Can you not see how different it is from English style?
Does it not make sense to you why they would want to govern themselves?

The free prescriptions was the last straw to be honest. people in England are starting to get fed up with the Scots, Welsh and Irish taking them for a ride and getting nothing back in return. Services in England are being cut, yet in Scotland their budget is fixed so they get the same amount of money.

If this is true, why do the English fight so hard against the break up of the Union?

A UN seat doesn't matter to Wales or Scotland, only to the England.
G8, England
Northern Ireland, England

The English claim they would be richer if Scotland did leave.
So why do they try to hard to stop them leaving?

Deedsie

The media campaign over there really does seem to be against the referendum. No man can stop the march of a nation though, if it is what Scotland want its what will happen. Would it have much of an effect on the British Army?

LordSutch

Would a newly independent Scotland become an economic threat to the Irish economy?

I presume, if Scotland were to become totally independent, then they would be chasing jobs, Multinationals & the like, and be in direct competition with Ireland as a similarly sized & populated country!!!

It might not be all plain sailing for the Republic, and would NI also be drawn out of the UK & more towards the motherland (Scotland)? as opposed to making & fostering closer links with the Republic?

Dannyboy83

Petition for an independent Scotland, sign here
http://www.snp.org/campaigns/letscotlanddecide

Welsh Independance
http://independent-wales.blogspot.com/
http://independent-wales.blogspot.com/2008/02/keep-to-your-promise-rhodri-welsh.html



English Independance
http://www.englishindependenceparty.com/
http://www.petitiononline.com/engfree/petition.html

Fratton Fred

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Well, they could've got a bail out from Germany, like Ireland?
Or perhaps SNP and Labour are so different that they would have had the relevant regulators etc.?

Perhaps they would not be involved in a war that they didn't want?
Perhaps they would have a strong independent voice in the EU and the world instead of a Provence of England?
These are the reasons I keep hearing.

I believe the threat of Bankruptcy was what forced them into the Act of Union in the beginning anyway.

The Scots want equality as do they Welsh, as did the Irish.
I'm not sure if the Welsh could stand alone, but the Scots definitely could.

Perhaps if they moved parliament from Westminister to Edinburgh?
Would the English be ok with that?



Here is the formula:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_Formula

This would seem to agree
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1584283/Lord-Barnett-admits-scheme-is-not-formula.html


This would seem to disagree:
http://www.scottishpolitics.org/scotching/greatdeception.html

In truth, I don't honestly know.

Its said: "look how lucky they are, they get this and that"
But then they are begrudged it if they do get it.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5941456.ece

Cameron, what about Cameron? Isn't Salmond the alternative? The SNP leader?

Given that the Scotts make up 9% of the UK, and the Welsh make up about 7%, and Northern Ireland is just a social welfare state anyway, that means that 85% is focused on England.

I think this is evident of the type of politics they want to pursue.
Can you not see how different it is from English style?
Does it not make sense to you why they would want to govern themselves?


If this is true, why do the English fight so hard against the break up of the Union?

A UN seat doesn't matter to Wales or Scotland, only to the England.
G8, England
Northern Ireland, England

The English claim they would be richer if Scotland did leave.
So why do they try to hard to stop them leaving?

The Scots could stand alone if they wanted to, in fact i would love it of they did. All this talk of the English preventing them breaking away is rubbish though. Tere was a survey in one of the papers lat year and 49% of people in Scotland wanted an independant scotland, in England, 51% wanted an inpedendant scotland!!

With regards to the Scots not having a voice, there is a Scottish prime minister for gods sake, the leader of the opposition was brought up in England to Scottish Parents. how much more of a voice do they want?

my opinion is much like the majority of fellow English people's. If they want independance fine, take, **** off and stop whinging.:D

Oh, and take that "One eyed Scotsman" with you:D

Dannyboy83

Camelot wrote: »

Would a newly independent Scotland become an economic threat to the Irish economy?

Unlikely.

The only threat for Ireland would be having to subsidise the North of Ireland if we got landed with them. There is a colossal amount of people on social welfare up there.
They have free healthcare, but sod all industry apparently.

Most likely an independent Scotland & Wales would be a big benefit to us.

Wales - nuclear power, coal, other exports.
Scotland - oil just for a start, reduced education rates for Ireland etc.

I guess there would a Celtic League of some sort too, like the Gaelic League, but with economic co-ordination.

The main thing really is that they would be operating within the EU, and trading with England, so they would be significantly wealthier than they are now.

I presume, if Scotland were to become totally independent, then they would be chasing jobs, Multinationals & the like, and be in direct competition with Ireland as a similarly sized & populated country!!!

If the Germans get their way with tax harmonisation, Ireland's goose may be already cooked. But the strategic plan for Ireland at the moment is to move back to high exports.
An independent Scotland would probably boost our economy.

As many have said, it could work out to Irelands benefit and close the GDP vs GNP gap, if we stop focusing on foreign companies and try to grow some homogeneous industry

It might not be all plain sailing for the Republic, and would NI also be drawn out of the UK & more towards the motherland (Scotland)? as opposed to making & fostering closer links with the Republic?

Unlikely.
Scotland definitely wouldn't want to pay for them at the start
Ireland wouldn't want to pay for them either.
England would probably be left footing the bill.

England would probably be a lot poorer in reality as it would be trading with Wales and Scotland (who would be a lot richer), so the English may get pissed off with that, and use the dissolution of the UK as an excuse to get out of their responsibilities.

Northern Ireland could be left stranded or else we could be stuck with them given that there is a growing nationalist population.
Probably a lot of unionists would leave for England or Scotland, which would make it somewhat easier I suppose.

Manach

Another question about this. Historically Scotland was not a monolithic state, being comprised of several patchwork regions. So will there be independance from Scotland by the Orkneys at some future date?

Fratton Fred

What advantage would there be for Scotland to leave Britain and join a Celtic League? what can Ireland offer them that they can't get from England? What can Scotland offer Ireland except for large amounts of hydro-electric power and Oil?

Deedsie

Camelot wrote: »

Would a newly independent Scotland become an economic threat to the Irish economy?

It might not be all plain sailing for the Republic, and would NI also be drawn out of the UK & more towards the motherland (Scotland)? as opposed to making & fostering closer links with the Republic?

With increased competion we may be able to lure some more industry to Ireland and away from England and Wales as Scotland becomes an independent player on the multinational market.

Id say the Scots wouldn't take independence if they had to have anything to do with NI.

Dannyboy83

Manach wrote: »

Another question about this. Historically Scotland was not a monolithic state, being comprised of several patchwork regions. So will there be independance from Scotland by the Orkneys at some future date?

The English have been talking about partition if they do get independance.

Apparently the English want to partition Edinburgh/Glasgow.
Similar to the North here.

Trying to find a source for that

Deedsie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What advantage would there be for Scotland to leave Britain and join a Celtic League? what can Ireland offer them that they can't get from England? What can Scotland offer Ireland except for large amounts of hydro-electric power and Oil?

The expertise on how to fully exploit natural renewable energy resources. Something we fail miserably at.

Ireland has a superior agriculture sector than Scotland, perhaps we could provide expertise in that area?

Dannyboy83

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What advantage would there be for Scotland to leave Britain and join a Celtic League? what can Ireland offer them that they can't get from England? What can Scotland offer Ireland except for large amounts of hydro-electric power and Oil?

Money.

Deedsie

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The English have been talking about partition if they do get independance.

Apparently the English want to partition Edinburgh/Glasgow.
Similar to the North here.

That may be the most depressing thing I have heard in a long time.

Dannyboy83

Deedsie wrote: »

That may be the most depressing thing I have heard in a long time.

I read it a while back, trying to find a source for that now.

diverdriver

It won't happen, as someone pointed out, in reality Scottish independance is more popular in England than Scotland. Which makes you wonder what all the fuss about 'freeing' Northern Ireland is about. If it was up to the English people, NI would be cast adrift in the morning.

But as it happens, Scotland would survive quite well as an independant country, a darn sight better than we have been. However they would struggle without being subsidised by the English at first. The SNP are essentially socialist, which means high taxes. Reality would bite, quite quickly.

But like I said, it won't happen because a lot of Scots are quite happy to be British and in truth there is little advantage in being independant except for some rose tinted ideas of freedom and self expression which have done us Irish no good whatsoever over the years.

As for NI, well that would really set the cat among the pigeons but if anyone thinks they would end up in the republic. They are kidding themselves. They'd stay British forever or go independant themselves. Plus we cannot afford NI anymore as it's essentially one big social welfare bill for the British.

djpbarry

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The main thing really is that they would be operating within the EU, and trading with England, so they would be significantly wealthier than they are now.
...
England would probably be a lot poorer in reality as it would be trading with Wales and Scotland (who would be a lot richer)...

What exactly are you basing all that on? Both Wales and Scotland would be better off outside the union, but England would be worse off?

Dannyboy83

Here is a story from the Telegraph that says both the English and Scottish want break up:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up-poll-shows.html

Here Alex Salmond was talking in January 2009
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3638581/Only-Scottish-independence-can-solve-the-English-Question.html

68 per cent of English want independence from Scotland
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23375965-details/We+want+independence+from+Scotland+say+68+per+cent+of+English+voters/article.do

Dannyboy83

According to the latest story I can find:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/4996066/Alex-Salmonds-independence-referendum-plan-rejected-by-voters.html

In August 2007, 74 per cent of Scots told YouGov they supported an independence referendum in principle. That has now fallen to 57 per cent, with 29 per cent opposed to the idea.
Only 32 per cent believe it would be appropriate to stage the referendum next year in view of the recession, with 53 per cent against.
If a referendum were held tomorrow, 33 per cent said they would support independence while 53 per cent would oppose it.
Murdo Fraser, Scottish Conservative deputy leader, said: "This is a devastating blow for Alex Salmond's plans for a referendum in 2010.

So, it looks like they want independence, but just not yet.
They want England to foot the RBS bill first, HAHAHA:D:D


Trouble on the horizon for Ireland I think.
I have this bad feeling we are going to be landed with the Northern Welfare state within the next 15 years.

Hookey

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Money.

They already get money. From England. Where else would they go? Trade with the EU? They already do that. Trade with the other Celtic states? They already do that as well (not that its worth much). Suckle at the EU teat? That ship has sailed. Scotland (and Wales) have been pushed as special development areas, with both English and EU money, for decades.

Fratton Fred

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The English have been talking about partition if they do get independance.

Apparently the English want to partition Edinburgh/Glasgow.
Similar to the North here.

Trying to find a source for that

Why on earth would England want to retian part of Glasgow or Edingurgh? Aberdeen I could understand, but neither of those has anything that would be of interest to England.

Riddle101

I for one support the idea for Scottish Independence. But that is if Scotland wants it.

diverdriver

I have this bad feeling we are going to be landed with the Northern Welfare state within the next 15 years.

Oh the irony! British government: 'Here lads, have the North back with our compliments' Irish government: 'Ah no, you hang onto it, we're over that united Ireland thing. Oh and by the way, would you interested in someone to replace Scotland in that old UK of yours?'


As for the partition idea. I do think the English have very much learned that lesson. They're not a stupid people.:)

Fratton Fred

diverdriver wrote: »

As for the partition idea. I do think the English have very much learned that lesson. They're not a stupid people.:)

The Scots aren't going to give up their capital and the last thing England needs is another sectarian ****hole hanging round its neck

Dannyboy83

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why on earth would England want to retian part of Glasgow or Edingurgh? Aberdeen I could understand, but neither of those has anything that would be of interest to England.

A significant portion of one city is English and voted against independence (I believe).

Having trouble find the story, but I couldn't see it happening anyway.

Most of the world already has England on their hit list, the last thing they need is their next door neighbours adding them aswell.

diverdriver

A significant portion of one city is English and voted against independence (I believe).

Well it won't be Glasgow. If that logic was followed Dublin would still be British connected to NI by the M1. (Some would say that Dublin is still a bit British;)). It won't happen their fellow English would abandon them to their Scottish fate!:p

Are you sure, you're not thinking of Wales? There is a significant English presence in South Wales and the borders. Any independance for Wales would be problematic on that score. But yet again, I say it, no partition this time.

Dannyboy83

Some of the more important stories I guess

Power clawback "unacceptable"

http://www.snp.org/node/15025


Regulation failures 'made in Downing Street'

http://www.snp.org/node/15017


Unions back fight against Labour cuts

http://www.snp.org/node/15032


New legislation brings inquiries to Scotland

http://www.snp.org/node/15029

Dannyboy83

diverdriver wrote: »

Well it won't be Glasgow. If that logic was followed Dublin would still be British connected to NI by the M1. (Some would say that Dublin is still a bit British;)). It won't happen their fellow English would abandon them to their Scottish fate!:p

Are you sure, you're not thinking of Wales? There is a significant English presence in South Wales and the borders. Any independance for Wales would be problematic on that score. But yet again, I say it, no partition this time.

I've already agreed with you. It was suggested in 1 of the newspaper articles.

I can't see it happening, the Scottish would bomb them to pieces with the new nuclear weapons they're supposed to be dumping in Scotland.:p

Fratton Fred

I'm not aware of any English presence on Scotland TBH. Ok there may be a few "Grey" areas around Carlisle and Gretna and maybe Berwick, but other than that the border region is pretty sparsely populated. Certainly the likes of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Stirling would have no more English people than Dublin.

Wales, sure when you get around Hereford or Chester the border is like the RoI/NI border, other than road signs it is hard to tell what country you are in. Also, if you ask the people of North Wales, they'll tell you everyone south of the Brecons are no better than the English anyway:D

djpbarry

djpbarry wrote: »

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The main thing really is that they would be operating within the EU, and trading with England, so they would be significantly wealthier than they are now.
...
England would probably be a lot poorer in reality as it would be trading with Wales and Scotland (who would be a lot richer)...

What exactly are you basing all that on? Both Wales and Scotland would be better off outside the union, but England would be worse off?

Still waiting for a reply to this.

Richard

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

No country should be ruled by another.

Tell that to the British Prime Minister, the Scot Gordon Brown!

And think about those poor Cork inhabitants ruled by the foreigners in Dublin!

Richard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not aware of any English presence on Scotland TBH. Ok there may be a few "Grey" areas around Carlisle and Gretna and maybe Berwick,

Carlisle and Berwick have lots of English people... given that they're in England!

I think Edinburgh does have a significant percentage of English people, though I don't have the figures.

As for this whole topic, I think it's strange that there seems to be an expectation that the UK will break up even though the majority of NI, Scotland, Wales and probably England too, want it to continue.

Alan1988

Hey, I love Scotland and its people, you deserve your Independance. Alan, Ireland.

Fratton Fred

Richard wrote: »

Carlisle and Berwick have lots of English people... given that they're in England!

I think Edinburgh does have a significant percentage of English people, though I don't have the figures.

As for this whole topic, I think it's strange that there seems to be an expectation that the UK will break up even though the majority of NI, Scotland, Wales and probably England too, want it to continue.

I know where Carlisle is, passed through it plenty of times. Just trying to point out there areas where people may move to a new estate just over the border, there isn't to my knowledge a huge English enclave north of the border, unlike Corby for example that has its own Rangers and Celtic supporters clubs and second generation scots speaking with Glasgow accents. I don't think Britain wll split up, mainly because I don't see what it would achieve. Ok a fisherman from the west coast of scotland has different wants and aspirations to someone from London, just like a farmer from Kerry has different needs to a banker from Dublin.

Riddle101

This is off topic but what is Scotland's Exact population?

djpbarry

Riddle101 wrote: »

This is off topic but what is Scotland's Exact population?

Scottish.

Deedsie

Riddle101 wrote: »

This is off topic but what is Scotland's Exact population?

2007 estimate - 5,144,200

Richard

Alan1988 wrote: »

Hey, I love Scotland and its people, you deserve your Independance. Alan, Ireland.

What if they don't want it?

magick

Richard wrote: »

What if they don't want it?

then things stay the same

partyguinness

If Scotland votes for independence, what system will it adopt? Republicanism?

jimmmy

It reminds me of the old song " Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose "

When it comes down to it, Scotland will never vote for total independence. They would be calling in the IMF ( it it will still exist ) in no time. United they stand.

mike65

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why on earth would England want to retian part of Glasgow or Edingurgh? Aberdeen I could understand, but neither of those has anything that would be of interest to England.

Edinburgh would be retained for the Arts festival of course

Seriously though who comes up with such Bullsh1t?

As for Scottish independence, I would suggest now would be the perfect time, for England.

partyguinness

I would be very very surprised if Scotland voted for independence...history has shown repeatedly that they have no real appetite for it and somebody somewhere will 'sell out' and hijack the whole thing anyway..