The Bernard Dunne aint REALLY a world champion discussion

sligobhoy67

How Irish is this thread? BD won the belt less than 24 hours ago and we are havin a thread like this!

I am playin devils advocate to be honest but is Dunne really a world champion??

Celestine Caballero won the regular WBA title and was then made "super champion" after be also won the IBF title.

Basically Dunnes title is a glorified "eliminator position"

iDontReallyCare

no, but i don't really care.

injured365

part of the problem with boxing these days, so many different belts and so many different weight classes that it makes it harder to stand out but easier to become a world champion. Still tho, fair play to the lad

Johnduddy

Ive waited so many years to see a new Irish World Champion - regardless of how he got the shot or whether Cordoba had the WBA title as a result of Cabellero being promoted to super champion. The fact is the record books show Dunne is now the WBA Super Bantamweight Champion and thats all that matters

joepenguin

I usually have no time or regard for these titles and its really an interim belt but because cordoba has a won over the wba super champ and ibf champ then yes, Bernard is a world champ and the belt is as good as the rest of them.

edit:: Vasquez was the number one but has been so inactive. Up until that his belt was the only one that mattered if you wanted to be world champ. Now we have fighters owning portions of it.

Y2J_MUFC

I can't believe what I just read.

Why can't you be happy for the lad instead of trying to diminish his achievement? The record books are more important than your opinion, begrudger.

That bottom line is: he beat the current champion. He's the world champion. End of story.

walshb

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

How Irish is this thread? BD won the belt less than 24 hours ago and we are havin a thread like this!

I am playin devils advocate to be honest but is Dunne really a world champion??

Celestine Caballero won the regular WBA title and was then made "super champion" after be also won the IBF title.

Basically Dunnes title is a glorified "eliminator position"

Disregarding Dunne's great display last night and being purely official about it all.
The world of boxing is a mess, lets be clear here. With champs and super champs and eliminator champs and this that and the other. It's a mess.

My own personal opinion is that the three best fighters in the world are and should only be deemed world champions. Now, some would be even harsher and say the lineal champ is the real champ. But boxing has become so driven by money and
corruption of late

Dunne got a lucky shot at a title that another man was, lets be honest, lucky
to have.

Cordoba is NOT a worthy world champ. He did not perform like I would
expect a worthy champ to perform. He gassed and he didn't gas from a beating
either. I like Dunne and he impressed me immensely last night and I'm so
happy he did. I am not all that different about him. He showed improvements, but
I feel the legitimacy to being rated as one of the worlds best is a step away.

BTW, I am so happy for Bernard. I just don't feel that the win
was worthy of the title 'worlds champion' Sorry fellas, that term
is too loose these days. A world champ IMO is the best
of the best, or at least top three, if we allow for the WBA, WBC and IBF

Should Khan beat a man for the WBO belt I will be exactly the same.
Until Khan beats one of the three best men at 135, then WC is out!

Even after Bernard's win, he is still rated outside the top 5 on the complete ranking system,
yet he is a world champ?
The world of boxing stinks, nothing to do with Dunne. It's been
rotten for years

If I can use a comparison: Does anyone believe Dunne's claim or
win was the same as Barry's win over Eusebio?

sligobhoy67

Y2J_MUFC wrote: »

I can't believe what I just read.

Why can't you be happy for the lad instead of trying to diminish his achievement? The record books are more important than your opinion, begrudger.

That bottom line is: he beat the current champion. He's the world champion. End of story.

a. dry yer tears girly man!

b. I am not a begruder - re read my post - what did you not understand by playing "devils advocate". I was there last night and was nearly in tears for the man I was that happy.

c. Should we ignore the fact that the WBA have a super champion?

d. What title is Celestino Caballero defending next month against Jeffrey Mathebula?

walshb

Sligo, dangerous thread when some folks are so sensitive.
I see exactly where you are coming from, I too was
ultra happy for Dunne and my wish is that he avenges KIko
and retires.

We all can still discuss, in depth, the nature of the win, the significance, the quality
of Cordoba, the legitimacy of a claim to worlds best etc

When I stack it all up, it was great for Dunne; but the jury is out on
whether or not he is truly a worlds great 122 lb fighter.

The divisions are in a mess with so many claiming to be the best.

Celestino is the champ, was the champ and this SUPER champ malarky
is ridiculous. Basically, now the freaking WBA have two champs.
It's ludicrous.

Running Bing

walshb wrote: »

Sligo, dangerous thread when some folks are so sensitive.
I see exactly where you are coming from, I too was
ultra happy for Dunne and my wish is that he avenges KIko
and retires.

We all can still discuss, in depth, the nature of the win, the significance, the quality
of Cordoba, the legitimacy of a claim to worlds best etc

When I stack it all up, it was great for Dunne; but the jury is out on
whether or not he is truly a worlds great 122 lb fighter.

The divisions are in a mess with so many claiming to be the best.

Celestino is the champ, was the champ and this SUPER champ malarky
is ridiculous. Basically, now the freaking WBA have two champs.
It's ludicrous.

Yeah its pretty sad that things have come to this.



So happy for Dunne and I gained a whole new level of respect for him last night but its a legitimate debate to have as boxing fans.....Ill put it this way though, if Kahn had become a world champ under such circumstances I cant imagine many here would give him a lot of credit;)

sligobhoy67

Babybing wrote: »

Yeah its pretty sad that things have come to this.

So happy for Dunne and I gained a whole new level of respect for him last night but its a legitimate debate to have as boxing fans.....Ill put it this way though, if Kahn had become a world champ under such circumstances I cant imagine many here would give him a lot of credit;)

Alex Arthur v Amir Khan is a distinct possibilty for the WBO title. If that happens then tecnically Khan could be a world champion and more of world champion than Dunne.

Sad but true!

walshb

Not trying to take one side over another, but Khan's only weakness is that chin. Dunne's
a few more issues to sort.

Khan is going to be so hard to beat. KO will be the only way I feel.
He's so fast and he's big too.

I hope both do well. I want Dunne to get better and I think that
fight last night will help him. I just hope it hasn't taken
too much out of him.

Sometimes a fighter gives such an
effort in a bout, that he leaves a part of him
in the ring

Johnduddy

walshb wrote: »

Sligo, dangerous thread when some folks are so sensitive.

Celestino is the champ, was the champ and this SUPER champ malarky
is ridiculous. Basically, now the freaking WBA have two champs.
It's ludicrous.

If there are 2 WBA champions will dunne and Celstino box at some stage in the future for the "undisputed" wba title ?

walshb

Big Ears intimated that this was the case. I think that is the ruling.
Well, it appears that Dunne is having to win the title twice then.

Celestino is the real champion in the eyes of the boxing world.
Officially, Dunne has a version of a version. It's madness!

Big Ears

Israel Vasquez is the Super-Bantamweight champion of the World, Dunne and the 3 other men holding 'World titles'(Celestino Caballero, Juan Manuel Lopez, Toshiaki Nishioka) are just contenders for that title really.

Walshb how can there be 3 real World Champions.
Almost by definition there can be one or none.
I consider Dunne's achievement the same as what Juan Manuel Lopez has done and greater than what Nishioka has done, due to the opponent.

Unless you're the true Champion(Vasquez in this case) then it's not what you're fighting for it's who you fight. Dunne just beat a very very good fighter. A true World Class fighter.





Walshb I disagree that his exhaustion didn't come from a beating, if you watch the fight back you'll notice just how clean and sharp the left hooks and straight rights Cordoba was taking were. About 5 seconds before the first knockdown a left hook hurts him badly. That's the shot he went down from he never recovered from that. He didn't fall from exhaustion, it was that shot, which did more damage when he was tired obviously that did it.

Daroxtar

How is vasquez the real champion anymore than anyone else? He isn't the undisputed champ, he holds one version of the title. Dunne is the WBA champ. Its not the IBO or EBU, its the WBA, the real deal. He won his title in a fight. He wasn't given it as a present. This super champ title thingy is a pile of dung. Give the man his fkn dues and stop nit pickin.

sligobhoy67

Daroxtar wrote: »

How is vasquez the real champion anymore than anyone else? He isn't the undisputed champ, he holds one version of the title. Dunne is the WBA champ. Its not the IBO or EBU, its the WBA, the real deal. He won his title in a fight. He wasn't given it as a present. This super champ title thingy is a pile of dung. Give the man his fkn dues and stop nit pickin.

Sometimes you dont need a belt to be the champ - these days the belts are becoming worthless!

So the "super champ" is the fake and the "regular champ" is the real champ!?!?! :rolleyes:

Tell me how Celestino became super champ and how Cordoba became the regular champ!?

Big Ears

Daroxtar wrote: »

How is vasquez the real champion anymore than anyone else? He isn't the undisputed champ, he holds one version of the title. Dunne is the WBA champ. Its not the IBO or EBU, its the WBA, the real deal. He won his title in a fight. He wasn't given it as a present. This super champ title thingy is a pile of dung. Give the man his fkn dues and stop nit pickin.

Oh but he is the undisputed champion, the true Super-Bantamweight champion and it has nothing to do with that WBC garbage title which he used to have.

He established himself as the 2nd best Super-Bantamweight in the World, it was clear as day for all to see at the time that he should be ranked 2nd.

Oscar Larios had established himself as #1, yet again clearly.
Then they fought, the #1 and #2 in the division fought.
Vasquez won making him the real, lineal and undisputed Super-Bantamweight champion of the World.

It's simple really and it's how it's been done since over a hundred years ago.
When there's no champion and then the best two fight, the winner becomes champion.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Israel Vasquez is the Super-Bantamweight champion of the World, Dunne and the 3 other men holding 'World titles'(Celestino Caballero, Juan Manuel Lopez, Toshiaki Nishioka) are just contenders for that title really.

Walshb how can there be 3 real World Champions.
Almost by definition there can be one or none.
I consider Dunne's achievement the same as what Juan Manuel Lopez has done and greater than what Nishioka has done, due to the opponent.

Unless you're the true Champion(Vasquez in this case) then it's not what you're fighting for it's who you fight. Dunne just beat a very very good fighter. A true World Class fighter.





Walshb I disagree that his exhaustion didn't come from a beating, if you watch the fight back you'll notice just how clean and sharp the left hooks and straight rights Cordoba was taking were. About 5 seconds before the first knockdown a left hook hurts him badly. That's the shot he went down from he never recovered from that. He didn't fall from exhaustion, it was that shot, which did more damage when he was tired obviously that did it.

I'm with you, in a perfect world, there would be ONE. In a non perfect world I will settle for the top three best fighters. Not guys rated below that and gaining belts.

Dunne and Cordoba are not top 5. I rate the top three as the real champs. That's in a non perfect world.

Dunne did land good blows, but he himself intimated that Cordoba was exhausted.
Yes, from blows received, but also from simple exhaustion. He wasn't being pasted or hit
with dynamite.

IMO, Dunne beat the best opponent of his life; I still wasn't overly impressed
with Ricardo. I have seen many 122 lb fighters and I thought many
looked better, including all the champs and Ruiz.

BTW, before the fight I did say that I wasn't overly
impressed with Cordoba. It's not like I am just saying
it now to take away from Dunne's win.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

I'm with you, in a perfect world, there would be ONE. In a non perfect world I will settle for the top three best fighters. Not guys rated below that and gaining belts.

Dunne and Cordoba are not top 5. I rate the top three as the real champs. That's in a non perfect world.

Dunne did land good blows, but he himself intimated that Cordoba was exhausted.
Yes, from blows received, but also from simple exhaustion. He wasn't being pasted or hit
with dynamite.

IMO, Dunne beat the best opponent of his life; I still wasn't overly impressed
with Ricardo. I have seen many 122 lb fighters and I thought many
looked better, including all the champs and Ruiz.

BTW, before the fight I did say that I wasn't overly
impressed with Cordoba. It's not like I am just saying
it now to take away from Dunne's win.

But lets say one of these top 3 in the division don't have a 'World title'(eg you could make a case for Rafael Marquez at SB), then how are they a World Champion.

There's always been plenty of people claiming to be World champion, boxing is no different now then in the past.

eagle eye

Bernard Dunne currently holds the WBA world champion's belt. As far as I'm concerned he is the WBA World Champion and that means he is a World Champ.

We all know about the state of boxing as far as super champs and ring title holders go but he is still world champ and the history books will show Bernard Dunne was a world champ.

I'd like to see him try and take another belt in time just to shut up the begrudgers, dunno that much about the weight but I do know that his only defeat before last night was to Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym in a split decision in Thailand where it was reckoned the descision could easily have gone in his favour and he beat Siderenko and was never stopped before last night. Now thats quality to me.

And Bernard Dunne beat that and is a true World champ in my eyes.

Big Ears

eagle eye wrote: »

Bernard Dunne currently holds the WBA world champion's belt. As far as I'm concerned he is the WBA World Champion and that means he is a World Champ.

We all know about the state of boxing as far as super champs and ring title holders go but he is still world champ and the history books will show Bernard Dunne was a world champ.

I'd like to see him try and take another belt in time just to shut up the begrudgers, dunno that much about the weight but I do know that his only defeat before last night was to Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym in a split decision in Thailand where it was reckoned the descision could easily have gone in his favour and he beat Siderenko and was never stopped before last night. Now thats quality to me.

And Bernard Dunne beat that and is a true World champ in my eyes.

He's as much of a World champion as Collins was, albeit Collins did it at two weights.

He can't actually fight for another title unless he goes and beats Celestino Caballero. Caballero was WBA regular champion and became Super-Champion when he unified the WBA and IBF titles. Cordoba was thus promoted from interim champion to regular champion. The regular champion at the weight can't fight for other versions of the World title when there's a Super-Champion at the weight.

There's the man he'd have to beat. Caballero is all wrong for Dunne.

sligobhoy67

eagle eye wrote: »

Bernard Dunne currently holds the WBA world champion's belt. As far as I'm concerned he is the WBA World Champion and that means he is a World Champ.

We all know about the state of boxing as far as super champs and ring title holders go but he is still world champ and the history books will show Bernard Dunne was a world champ.

I'd like to see him try and take another belt in time just to shut up the begrudgers, dunno that much about the weight but I do know that his only defeat before last night was to Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym in a split decision in Thailand where it was reckoned the descision could easily have gone in his favour and he beat Siderenko and was never stopped before last night. Now thats quality to me.

And Bernard Dunne beat that and is a true World champ in my eyes.

no one is doubting the achievement it was awesome.

It was the best fight I have ever been at and the best atomsphere of ANY sporting event I have attending and I have been to a lot - Glasgow derbies, Manchester derbies, Rugby league grand final, FA Cup final, Hatton fights etc.

What is for discussion is the legitimacy of the belt.

The WBA created the "regular title" when they already had a champion in Celestino Caballero.

Caballero beat Roberto Bonilla for the interim title in 2006 and has been undeafeted since then! Each of those fights have be sanctioned by the WBA as a fight for their super bantamweight title! And only in November he beat unbeaten Canadian Steve Molitor for the WBA and IBF title.

With this in mind the WBA moved him up to "super champion" and created the regular title - purely to obtain more sanctioning fees and Cordoba then beat Luis Alberto Perez (how never had a fight at SBW) for the regular title.

Taking that into consideration how can anyone justify an argument to say that Caballero isnt the true WBA title holder?

nacho libre

There were threads in the past where people said he'd never win a world Title. Yet he beat Cordoba, who had only suffered one defeat in 37 fights going into the contest, who had been a strong favourite.

So with this in mind it really is unfair to nitpick and disparage his achievement.
He proved many of us wrong by winning a world title because lets be honest few of us thought he would do so after he was destroyed by Martinez. Yet he did it against a guy of the calibre of Cordoba. That really says it all. Who cares if he can't beat Vasquez or Caballero(?) it doesn't take away from what he accomplished last night.

joepenguin

Bernard Dunne is A world champion. Not THE world champion. Lets say the wba's policy was that if you fought for another belt then you are stripped of the wba belt and it becomes vacant / the interim champ fights someone for it.
In this case Cabellero gives up his belt to face Molitor vacating the wba belt. Cordoba picks it up but drops it to Dunne.

If cabellero retires tommorrow does that make Dunne any more of a champion than he is now? No, just puts him up a notch on boxrec.

The wba are basically taking the belt from the unified champs but still charging the for it. In effect its the same thing.

Dunne beat a top ten fighter who has a win over the no.1 fighter in the divions.
Il just mention that Vasquez wont count until he comes back. but he was far the numero uno.

joepenguin

Super bantamweight world champs:

Celestino Cabellero: IBF and WBA "Super"
Juanma Lopez: WBO
Toshiaki Nishioka: WBC
Bernard Dunne: WBA regular

In order imo: based on opponents faced for the title and the qaulity of their opponents:

1)Cabellero
2)Lopez
3)Dunne
4)Nishioka

Daroxtar

nacho libre wrote: »

There were threads in the past where people said he'd never win a world Title. Yet he beat Cordoba, who had only suffered one defeat in 37 fights going into the contest, who had been a strong favourite.

So with this in mind it really is unfair to nitpick and disparage his achievement.
He proved many of us wrong by winning a world title because lets be honest few of us thought he would do so after he was destroyed by Martinez. Yet he did it against a guy of the calibre of Cordoba. That really says it all. Who cares if he can't beat Vasquez or Caballero(?) it doesn't take away from what he accomplished last night.

Well said. He showed the heart of a champion and took a hell of a thumping but came through and did a great job finishing the fight.

sligobhoy67

Daroxtar wrote: »

Well said. He showed the heart of a champion and took a hell of a thumping but came through and did a great job finishing the fight.

yeah seem to have forgotten about my response above!

Martin Rogan showed the heart of a champion and took a hell of a thumping but came through and did a great job finishing the fight does that mean he is the world champion?

eagle eye

joepenguin wrote: »

Super bantamweight world champs:

Celestino Cabellero: IBF and WBA "Super"
Juanma Lopez: WBO
Toshiaki Nishioka: WBC
Bernard Dunne: WBA regular

In order imo: based on opponents faced for the title and the qaulity of their opponents:

1)Cabellero
2)Lopez
3)Dunne
4)Nishioka

I disagree with your order. As you well know Cordoba holds a win over Cabellero and he has never put that one to bed with a rematch.

Big Ears

eagle eye wrote: »

I disagree with your order. As you well know Cordoba holds a win over Cabellero and he has never put that one to bed with a rematch.

True but what he's done since has earned him that place.
Wins over Daniel Ponce De Leon, Somsak Sithchatchawal and Steve Molitor who all were not only top 10 Super-Bantamweights but probably in the top 6 at one time or another. He also has solid wins over Jose Valbuena, Yober Ortega and Jorge Lacierva. His win over Lorenzo Parra would be very good aswell if there hadn't of been such a massive difference in size(both height and weight), because Parra is very very good.

Daroxtar

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

yeah seem to have forgotten about my response above!

Martin Rogan showed the heart of a champion and took a hell of a thumping but came through and did a great job finishing the fight does that mean he is the world champion?

Cabalero should be the champ, i agree with you there but due to this daft profits based idea of regular and super champ they effectively stripped him and cordoba won the vacant title. Dunne beat cordoba. He is therefore as rightly entitled to be called the champ as anyone else who holds a title. We all know the belts hold very little value these days,but still they're what these guys fight for so they must be worth something.

Rogie is the world champion, it just hasn't happened yet. Bring on Valuyev:)

joepenguin

eagle eye wrote: »

I disagree with your order. As you well know Cordoba holds a win over Cabellero and he has never put that one to bed with a rematch.

Thats a fair point. you can make an argument for jaunma as he is undefeated and the nature of his wins but all things considered Id give Cabellero the nod for number one.

sligobhoy67

eagle eye wrote: »

I disagree with your order. As you well know Cordoba holds a win over Cabellero and he has never put that one to bed with a rematch.

I dont agree with ya - that was a "derby fight" and a long time ago.

Cabellero has gpne on to prove he is the better fight of the two.

alanceltic

Lads im all for debate but in all honesty in an disgusted and gutted that you guys are questioning the credability of dunnes claim as a world champ, its a sad sad state of affairs especially from so called boxing supporters.

Yes theres versions of world titles and all sorts of rubbish which goes on behind the scenes, always was always will be. BEFORE the fight everyone was agreed that Cordoba was a worthy champion and that IF somehow Dunne could muster a win that he would be fully deserving of the title "world champion". But all of a sudden some people feel the need to ask the question now...... some people are unreal!!!! Now the fact that he scraped himself off the canvace twice and then went on to stop Cordoba who has never been stopped in 33 fights only re-inforces my mind that he is a world champion.

Just look at our 2 of our last champs, McGuigan & Collins..... McGuigan beat a man who was on the tail end of his career and half the man he once was. Collins on the other hand beat a man who was hyped to bits because he was left of centre and controversial and by no means a man in his prime either. I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone question the merits of either of these Irish world champions yet some people continue to go on the begrudgery trail EVEN NOW...im F_UCKING DISGUSTED, nothing but scumbags and if a mod feels the need to ban me for these comments so be it.

Dunne on the other hand beats a guy 24 years of his age with a 34-1 record who was NEVER stopped and actually only floored in 2 of these fights, also within this record he has a win over the so called "super champ" and now has to answer these ridicilous comments because there is politics involved in boxing.... I am that p_issed off that this could well be my last post on here

sligobhoy67

alanceltic wrote: »

Lads im all for debate but in all honesty in an disgusted and gutted that you guys are questioning the credability of dunnes claim as a world champ, its a sad sad state of affairs especially from so called boxing supporters.

Yes theres versions of world titles and all sorts of rubbish which goes on behind the scenes, always was always will be. BEFORE the fight everyone was agreed that Cordoba was a worthy champion and that IF somehow Dunne could muster a win that he would be fully deserving of the title "world champion". But all of a sudden some people feel the need to ask the question now...... some people are unreal!!!! Now the fact that he scraped himself off the canvace twice and then went on to stop Cordoba who has never been stopped in 33 fights only re-inforces my mind that he is a world champion.

Just look at our 2 of our last champs, McGuigan & Collins..... McGuigan beat a man who was on the tail end of his career and half the man he once was. Collins on the other hand beat a man who was hyped to bits because he was left of centre and controversial and by no means a man in his prime either. I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone question the merits of either of these Irish world champions yet some people continue to go on the begrudgery trail EVEN NOW...im F_UCKING DISGUSTED, nothing but scumbags and if a mod feels the need to ban me for these comments so be it.

Dunne on the other hand beats a guy 24 years of his age with a 34-1 record who was NEVER stopped and actually only floored in 2 of these fights, also within this record he has a win over the so called "super champ" and now has to answer these ridicilous comments because there is politics involved in boxing.... I am that p_issed off that this could well be my last post on here

I'll assume that you must have had drink on board and that that is the reason that you are acting like a hysterical 12 year old girl and dishing out misplaced abuse.

Its boring, lazy and hypocritical to call it begrudgery - I flew over from Manchester for just a few hours just to watch this fight. Dunne gave me one of the best nights of my life - but I am a true boxing fan - my knowledge is not derived from watch the headlines in The Irish Star say or what Jimmy Magee tells us - I am afraid that my knowledge is a little deeper and my intellect cannot ignore this.

Do I think that Dunnes win over Cordoba was a great achievement than McGuigans win over Pedrosa - yes! No one is doubting the achievement or the fight - it was the best fight I have ever seen live and the best atmosphere I have sampled at any event, sporting or otherwise. Not everyone went into that stadium thinking that Dunne would win - the majority didnt, but everyone hoped he would and everyone is delighted for him! This discussion isn't about that - its about the legitimacy of the title - the WBA already have a SBW title holder - he won it in 2006 and remains undefeated and still has a belt sanctioned by the WBA.

How can you ignore Celestino Cabellero?

Cab wasn't mentioned once in the build up to this - why? If this was a soccer, GAA or rugby match supporter would be demanding in depth analysis - not that things were skimmed over or hidden from us. Why do we have to put up with **** analysis incase it might effect the "feel good factor" for the ignorant?

Big Ears

I consider him as much of a World champion as any fighting holding the WBA title(that isn't the true, lineal champ in their division).

Most weights don't have a true champion, but this one does in Israel Vasquez.
Lightweight does in Juan Manuel Marquez, Light-Welterweight does in Ricky Hatton, Welterweight in Shane Mosley(even if he doesn't hold the Ring belt), Middleweight in Kelly Pavlik, Zsolt Erdei at Light-Heavyweight(unfortunatley) and you can also make a case for Tomas Adamek at Cruiserweight, Ivan Calderon at Light-Flyweight and some will argue Wladamir Klitschko at Heavyweight(depending on how highly they rated Ibragimov).

Those are the only people in boxing who can consider themselves true World champions, and there's only 9 of them at most(in just 9 of 17 weightclasses).

I consider Dunne as much a champion as Collins was, and as much a champion as Caballero is(despite his two titles), just Caballero should obviously be higher in the Super-Bantamweight rankings. But I'm not going to change my principles because of this and I don't think anyone can expect me to.
At most you can have one true World Champion in a weight division......just one, any more than that and how could they be World Champion.

Dunne, Caballero, Lopez and Nishioka are not the Super-Bantamweight Champion of the World, they are all World title holders and all valid challengers to Israel Vasquez's World title but that's the point, Vasquez is the real champion.


Now back in McGuigan's day there were only 2 belts really, the WBA and WBC. The IBF was around at the time but considered a minor strap, like the IBO is now. So back then things were a little different. However I will note that McGuigan was the weaker of the two World title holders back then and admitted Azumah Nelson probably would of beaten him recently and I think I'd probably put Dunne's win in a similar category to Barry's.


However unless you're fighting for the true title then it's who you beat and now what you beat them for. Dunne beat a World Class fighter Saturday night and with or without the WBA belt on the line I would of been ecstatic for him. He's put himself up there with any other Super-Bantamweight now(bar Vasquez).

walshb

Dunne is a great man, but please, lets not try to compare Barry beating a 7 year champion in Pedroza, one of the greatest feathers of all time. He had 19 defences I think and was the TRUE TRUE WBA champion at the time.

Ped was 32, still very very good and streets ahead of Cordoba, c'mon, lets not drag this down. Dunne did marvellous, but it's not to be compared to the WORLD BELT Barry won. It's not fair.

Boxing has gone so far down even since the days of Barry.

For the record, Ped went 15 rds with Barry and took a hell of a lot more shots and harder shots
than Cordoba did against Dunne and Cordoba didn't see rd 12. It's not even close

sligobhoy67

why are Nikolay Valuev, Shane Mosley, Anselmo Moreno and Brahim Asloum all "super champions" when they dont even have any other belts?

walshb

Because boxing people are corrupt and greedy, plain and simple!

T-K-O

Dunne is world champion simple as that - his title is on level par with that of the other champions that is accepted in the sport. The politics will always be there its not ideal but that is the situation we find ourselves.

Is he better than Vazquez? No. Does that mean Bernard's title is diminished? No.

There is no authority to say Vazquez is the #1 at the weight ( I would agree) but you could argue the point, that he is not and with a 4th Marquez fight pending who knows, also Vazquez doesn't hold a title at moment (as far as I know he was stripped)

It is also worth noting that titles do mean something - it is every fightera goal to win the title, titles mean less to established fighters who are top of their game and seek the big fights ala Hatton - Calzaghe - Manny, these guys couldn't care less at this stage if they hold a title or not.

walshb

Then, I suppose you could argue that the person who finishes fifth in a race is also a world champion.

That's the problem with boxing and why it is losing credibility
so fast. Four organisations and all
claiming to be world champion.

Then, one of these organisations creates another 'world title' belt.
It's bordering ludicrous.

That's all irrelevant to me. Dunne simply showed me his improved
self, his tougher self and his better self. I'm happy with that.

The whole 'world champ' is a separate issue to discuss.

T-K-O

But its not a race - he fought for the title, right or wrong that is the way it is. I don't like it having so many titles - but be assured its here to stay and will not change in our lifetime.

walshb

He fought for a title created to allow more money into the coffers of the WBA.

The WBA title belongs to Celestiono; the WBA created this alternate watered down version
for cash and sanctioning fees. It's a joke and should be called a joke.

Why should we fans have to endure this. It's not the sport I love anymore. It's becoming
more farcical by the day.

Bernard is not the joke; Bernard is a great man and a fine fighter. Hats off to him, he didn't create this belt, he didn't make a mockery of the WBA; he simply played by the 'new rules.'
He has certainly earned my respect now. He proved to me that he deserves real recognition
as a fine fighter

I cannot in any way fault Dunne.

I am simply pointing out how damn silly this sport has become with
this crap. There really can only be ONE WC; I will allow for the four (WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO) even
though I personally do not believe that there are really four men
called world champion; now there is a possible 5th?

When does the WBC and the others create another version for their organisation?
Before long, there will be 7 or 8 claiming to be world bloody champion!

I will never accept that and will mock it; it deserves mocking!

Anyone, can the other three main bodies create 'super champs' and then allow
two men to fight for the regular versions of their titles?

Big Ears

T-K-O wrote: »

Is he better than Vazquez? No. Does that mean Bernard's title is diminished? No.

There is no authority to say Vazquez is the #1 at the weight ( I would agree) but you could argue the point, that he is not and with a 4th Marquez fight pending who knows, also Vazquez doesn't hold a title at moment (as far as I know he was stripped)

I don't think you can argue the fact of Vasquez being #1 when he's the actual Champion at the weight. The champion should of course be #1 and it's up to other fighters to prove they're better.


If we're going to call Bernard World Champion now(as opposed to title holder), then why didn't we do it when he won the IBC title ?


He beat a World Class fighter last weekend, that was his accomplishment.
He's also established himself as a reasonable contender to Vasquez's throne, another major achievement.



Btw Vasquez does hold the Ring Magazine title, which I don't have much faith in but that title often(but not always) belongs to the real champion in the division. This is one of these cases.
He's also WBC champion emeritus, which means he has an automatic crack at the WBC title whenever he has recovered from injury, but that means **** all when he's the World Champion.

walshb

Big, that seems about right to me. Bernard beat a very good fighter, world champion? No.
Bernard beat the best opponent he has ever faced and in doing so showed great skill and heart and guts.

Do I consider Bernard Dunne a world champion? I don't!
Would I consider any fighter who won a watered down
version of a version, a world champion? NO!

I will not lower my view even further.

I have a hard enough time accepting 4 champions without this.
The introduction of the WBO in the late 80's was
bad enough, without this!

T-K-O

Big Ears wrote: »

I don't think you can argue the fact of Vasquez being #1 when he's the actual Champion at the weight. The champion should of course be #1 and it's up to other fighters to prove they're better.


If we're going to call Bernard World Champion now(as opposed to title holder), then why didn't we do it when he won the IBC title ?


He beat a World Class fighter last weekend, that was his accomplishment.
He's also established himself as a reasonable contender to Vasquez's throne, another major achievement.



Btw Vasquez does hold the Ring Magazine title, which I don't have much faith in but that title often(but not always) belongs to the real champion in the division. This is one of these cases.
He's also WBC champion emeritus, which means he has an automatic crack at the WBC title whenever he has recovered from injury, but that means **** all when he's the World Champion.

The ring, WBC, IBF, Boxrec..... I could post lists the length of my arm with different #1`s.

Vazquez being number one is opinion rather than fact and that is the problem with the sport.

It's all if, buts and maybes. The IBC is not recognised as you well know.. the WBA is. It is not right that they are allowed to dilute the belt but they have. It is senseless and they should be made to unify.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Big, that seems about right to me. Bernard beat a very good fighter, world champion? No.
Bernard beat the best opponent he has ever faced and in doing so showed great skill and heart and guts.

Do I consider Bernard Dunne a world champion? I don't!
Would I consider any fighter who won a watered down
version of a version, a world champion? NO!

I will not lower my view even further.

I have a hard enough time accepting 4 champions without this.
The introduction of the WBO in the late 80's was
bad enough, without this!

Walshb you should really just take the logical approach and disregard all the sanctioning bodies WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO etc, after all their goal is to make money.

Nishioka(the WBC champion, who got his chance when Vasquez got injured) beat a lesser fighter than Cordoba to win his 'title'
Should he be seen as more of a World champion than Bernard just because he has the only WBC belt(even though Vasquez is champion emeritus and has an automatic shot whenever he wants). Afterall he's not the real World Champion at the weight and he beat a lesser fighter than Dunne so why should he be seen as better ?

Boxing has recently geared towards trying to make the best fights over the last few years, rather than all these 'World Champions' trying to make money defending their titles against subpar opposition.
Joe Calzaghe was the Light-Heavyweight champion of the World without ever holding one of these stupid titles, Ricky Hatton is currently the Light-Welterweight champion and he only holds a stupid minor title(IBO).

Back a long time ago in bareknuckle era, fighters recognised as World Champion didn't even have a belt for quite some time. They defended the honour of being World champion, not the bauble around their waist.
It's not the piece of tin around the waist that counts, it's what you've actually done.

walshb

Was this a watered down version, or the actual legitimate version?
Vasquez was forced to relinquish the belt? If so, then that belt should go to
the next best two to fight for it in the WBC ratings.

I checked and he is the legitimate champ, not the
regular or alternate or anything else.
He may well not be the best, but he's not
the regular or alternate. He was promoted to
the REAL champ after a period of time

Caballero wasn't forced to relinquish. He was simply 'promoted' to Super Champ:rolleyes:
and then Cordoba fought a really average guy in Resto and won the watered down belt.
It's so comical.

I did ask that earlier. Do the WBC and IBF and WBO also have 'super champs' and also then have watered down champs if they so choose?

It's a freaking mess and one I will not accept.

Just because they introduce this crap, doesn't mean we have to accept it.

Sabre0001

You can only fight what's in front of you... So, yes, he is a World Champion (and congrats to him)

walshb

Sabre0001 wrote: »

You can only fight what's in front of you... So, yes, he is a World Champion (and congrats to him)

Well, that is a very simplistic view. If the guy in front of you is not the true
champion, but a champion created by a shambolic system, then that's
okay and all is cool? I don't think so

Surely it's not too much to ask that the world champion be the world champion and not
a version of a version?

Cabarello is the champion.

We go down this road and where does it end?
It's bad enough as it is!

T-K-O

Fighters need something to strive towards and that is becoming world champion, Hatton and Calzaghe only gave up the belts when they wanted the bigger fights and the sanctioning bodies became a hindrance.

Other fights will hold onto their title no matter what, this is far from an ideal situation but the titles do have value.

You could say the titles are just another stepping stone but a huge stone at that.

We could take the view that the only belt is the WBA (its the oldest I think) and disregard the rest.