40-50 mile spin in wicklow

mattym

I'm looking for a 40 to 50 mile spin in wicklow to include as much climbing as possible. A group of us are going to France for a few days climbing so we're on the hunt for long hills. Can anyone suggest a course? Thanks.

niceonetom

It would help if you gave us an idea of where you intend to start? Are you coming from Dublin?

There are no long climbs in wicklow, but it is possible to do a fair amount of climbing if you are prepared to go over the sally gap (and up kippure!) and then down to Laragh and up the wicklow gap towards Blessington. That's about 115km, depending on where you start obviously.

Where you going in France? the Alps?

mattym

Coming to Wicklow from Meath. We've done a few spins to Bellewstown where theres a few decent climbs but they are nowhere near long enough. Need length rather than a more extreme gradient. We're heading to Bourg D'oisans in the end of May for 4 days, Hope to climb L'Alpe D'heuz (at least twice) and a few of the other Le Tour climbs.

Caroline_ie

Do Lauteret and Galibier climbs. The descent from up there is 50km of Downhill heaven all the way to Bourg d'Oisans. Amazing!

niceonetom

hmmm - i've never even heard of bellewstown

A few of us went to Bourg last October. FANTASTIC! You'll have a great time if you like pain climbing. Even better if you like descending too.

Have you checked that the roads are open up high? The winter snow takes a long time to go at 2000m... I doubt you'll get anywhere near the top of Galibier, which is a beast, but it's the pick of the climbs out of that valley I think.

The bad news is that there is nothing in Ireland that comes anywhere near those long climbs. Nothing. There are no mountains in Ireland. All you could maybe do is go up and down something like the Wicklow gap a few times. You're right - the gradients are not the problem in the alpes, it is the length, so if you're training you need to get used to spending long periods at threshold heart rate levels. An hour or more. It's tough, but worth it.

Anyway, if you're going in a few days it's too bloody late to do anything major about your fitness.

mattym

Will do Caroline, am open to all suggestions for the climbs over there. Just cant wait to tackle L'alpe D'heuz. I get giddy thinking about it:):)

Caroline_ie

mattym wrote: »

Will do Caroline, am open to all suggestions for the climbs over there. Just cant wait to tackle L'alpe D'heuz. I get giddy thinking about it:):)

I think everyone here can agree I am not a climber, but I did go up the Alpe d'huez ... it took me a good few more minutes than the fastest of our guys, but I still went up there and it was great! So, as niceonetom said, if you are in shape you should be ok

mattym

niceonetom wrote: »

hmmm - i've never even heard of bellewstown

bellewstown is in Meath near Stamullen and Julianstown. A few decent climbs into the village but nothing too long. I climbed the Wicklow Gap a few weeks back, how does that compare to some of the climbs in France gradient wise? Would we just be better off parking in Laragh and climbing the Wicklow Gap 2 or 3 times maybe???

mattym

Well Caroline, i am working hard on the weight (15 stone 8) at moment but its going the right direction!!!! Dont care how long it takes, just to get to the top, bring it on........

niceonetom

mattym wrote: »

I climbed the Wicklow Gap a few weeks back, how does that compare to some of the climbs in France gradient wise? Would we just be better off parking in Laragh and climbing the Wicklow Gap 2 or 3 times maybe???

Ah, so you have some freedom as to where to start and stop from... laragh is a good one. From there you can choose to go up the Sally gap or the Wicklow gap, or make a loop and do both.

It's very hard to compare anything in Ireland with Alpine climbs. The Wicklow Gap would, I think, be slightly less steep than the alpe d'huez but the road surface in france does help slightly. On the wicklow gap you gain about 350m over about 5km, on the alpe you gain over 1100m in about 14km (anyone care to correct me? i'm going on memory here) but there is no let up in the climb at all. In wicklow the climbs are more variable in gradient, in the Alps it's like a steady ramp for much, much longer, only it gets steeper for hairpins.

You won't be able to climb for an hour in wicklow, the hills just aren't big enough, but if you string enough climbs together you can get a lot of climbing done - but you'll have to do a fair amount of slightly lumpy undulating stuff between the climbs. You will really need to be going further than 40 miles to do that though. At an off-the-cuff estimate 50k in the alps feels like 100k in wicklow, to me anyway.

emty

mattym wrote: »

Well Caroline, i am working hard on the weight (15 stone 8) at moment but its going the right direction!!!! Dont care how long it takes, just to get to the top, bring it on........

What height are you? Somewhere far north of six foot,I hope .Only joking,I am just over six feet tall and weigh about fourteen stone.Was with Tom and Caroline in the alps and tbh would have liked to have been at least half a stone lighter to fully enjoy the climbs more.

mattym

i'm 6'2" but quiet a broad build. Ran a marathon 2 years ago at 15 stone so i cant see myself getting lower than that! But i have been told that ever pound i can drop between now and then will help. We're up to doing anything around 40 miles and trying to include as many hills as possible but the long steady climbs are hard to find. I think it will be the Wicklow Gap twice at the weekend, its just so hard to imagine what to expect in France. Did ye all bring your bikes with you? I'm finding it hard to get bikes to hire over there, since there is 7 of us. Any one any experience bringing your bike on the plane and buses over there?

Caroline_ie

mattym wrote: »

Did ye all bring your bikes with you? I'm finding it hard to get bikes to hire over there, since there is 7 of us. Any one any experience bringing your bike on the plane and buses over there?

We took the bikes with us yes, and hired a family mini van to carry us around. Not sure about renting bikes, I guess you can always contact the Bourg D oisans tourist office ( google them )

There are a few threads about taking the bikes on planes the forum, just use the seach ( up there ^ ) you will find your answers.

blorg

I think 6 is a common limit to the number of bikes allowed on a single flight, could be an issue if there are 7 of you.

Lose as much weight as possible, 15 stone will not hamper you powering along on the flat or even the shorter climbs but it will on a looong 30km climb. I am not exactly overweight myself but hope to be 14-20 pounds lighter before I do the Marmotte this year.

Wicklow Gap twice is still only a bit over half an Alpe d'Huez, and Alpe d'Huez is only half a Galibier!

Having said that if you can comfortably climb in Wicklow I think you will be OK in France.
Pace yourself going up the Alpine climbs, take it easy at the start if you want to be able to finish strong. Personally I like to spin up them, keeps my legs fresher and I don't cramp.

tunney

niceonetom wrote: »

It would help if you gave us an idea of where you intend to start? Are you coming from Dublin?

There are no long climbs in wicklow, but it is possible to do a fair amount of climbing if you are prepared to go over the sally gap (and up kippure!) and then down to Laragh and up the wicklow gap towards Blessington. That's about 115km, depending on where you start obviously.

Where you going in France? the Alps?

Did this route last week. Its mainly flat really. Sally gap is okay but Wicklow gap, especially from laragh, is very disappointing. Its over before it starts and never gets even remotely steep at all.

I think for prepartion for the Alps you're looking at needing overgeared repeats on a decent climb.

niceonetom

tunney wrote: »

Did this route last week. Its mainly flat really. Sally gap is okay but Wicklow gap, especially from laragh, is very disappointing. Its over before it starts and never gets even remotely steep at all.

I think for prepartion for the Alps you're looking at needing overgeared repeats on a decent climb.

Name one then. yeah, I know what you mean, there are a lot of little lumps an slight descents between the sally gap and Wicklow gap. That's just the geography - nothing in Wicklow is going to be like the Alps but the Wicklow gap is longer than most while never actually getting really steep. As you say, over gearing could simulate a bit more gradient, and I did suggest just doing it a few times in a row first. From Laragh up to the waterfall on the Sally Gap road might be another option with about the same total change in elevation. I think repeats are the way to go though - I wish I'd done more of them before my own trip last year. But simple endurance plays a role too so 100km loops should be in the mix as well.

OP - stop eating. You can be as fit as you like, weight is a KILLER on a long climb. Moving 15 stone 26 miles horizontally is a lot easier than moving it 2000m vertically.

Lumen

mattym wrote: »

i'm 6'2" but quiet a broad build. Ran a marathon 2 years ago at 15 stone so i cant see myself getting lower than that!

The runners I know generally don't go out for more than an hour at a time when training; most of the boardie cyclists out at the weekend seem disappointed with anything less than four hours in the saddle.

So you might surprise yourself by how much drops off.

I'd be interested to know how Blorg intends to lose up to 20lbs without having limbs removed.

kenmc

Lumen wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how Blorg intends to lose up to 20lbs without having limbs removed.

Lighter wheels, sandals without socks, lightweight water - it all adds up you know. Then there's the "helium-in-the-frame trick" too of course.

Ryaner

mattym wrote: »

But i have been told that ever pound i can drop between now and then will help.

I've dropped about 10-15 lbs since I started back cycling at xmas. The weight lose has dropped around 25% of the time it takes me to get up howth hill and the times seem to roughly follow the weight loss over that time. So it does make a huge difference.

I am almost the same weight as yourself too.

Caroline_ie

Ryaner wrote: »

I've dropped about 10-15 lbs since I started back cycling at xmas.

Did you diet as well as exercising?

ROK ON

Ryaner wrote: »

I've dropped about 10-15 lbs since I started back cycling at xmas. The weight lose has dropped around 25% of the time it takes me to get up howth hill and the times seem to roughly follow the weight loss over that time. So it does make a huge difference.

I am almost the same weight as yourself too.

This is pretty relative however.
This time last yr I was 17st, now I am 15st. Mostly cycling, I still eat like a monster - not necessesarily bad food, but just lots of food.
It is easier to lose a lot of weight, if you have a lot of weight. I have now hit a weight level, whereby I would have to diet seriously to lose weight, despite cycling av avg of 200-200kn/week. (OK 100k of that is a handy 10k commute twice a day).
Weight loss does help with hill climbing, but so does hill climbing. The tougher the climbs I do, the more able that I am for them the follwing week.
However to really improve I would need to knock off 2stone in weight, and I know that I dont have the mental strength for that. I like cooking, baking and eating too much.
(Also it would cost me a fortune, as I would need to buy an entire new wardrobe of work suits and casual clothes:))

Caroline_ie

I lost 2 stones a couple of years ago when I started cycling too, but i was dieting heavyly I was on 1200/1400 cals a day.
I have been able to maintain my weight for the past 2 years by cycling more and eating loads ( much more than i used to before ). I need to lose another 8 to 10 lbs, which would be my lowest I want to get to. Almost the weight of my bike :P because it is at that stage what is slowing me down on hill climbs... that or I can start taking testotesrone ...

scottreynolds

Lumen wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how Blorg intends to lose up to 20lbs without having limbs removed.

10lbs is having a hair cut.

Caroline_ie

scottreynolds wrote: »

10lbs is having a hair cut.

Scott ... you can't hide where you're from :P

Raam

Do you run the risk of loosing a lot of power by loosing weight?

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

Do you run the risk of loosing a lot of power by loosing weight?

Surely not if your losing body fat which is essentially useless

---

scottreynolds

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Scott ... you can't hide where you're from :P

Its its any consolation I believe in animal rights.... I bought her breakfast in the morning.

Raam

scottreynolds wrote: »

Surely not if your losing body fat which is essentially useless

---

How do you know you are only loosing body fat? Which will the body shed first when dieting? Fat or muscle?

tunney

Raam wrote: »

Do you run the risk of loosing a lot of power by loosing weight?

Yes definitely. Huge risk.

Its not weight you want to lose its fat.

If you are crash dieting you *will* lose musle mass. its slow and steady to lose the body fat.

Raam

From what I remember reading... a good way to loose fat is to do low intensity spins for a long time.

tunney

Raam wrote: »

From what I remember reading... a good way to loose fat is to do low intensity spins for a long time.

Emmmmmmm, where's my photo of a can of worms.........

Eat less, train more, make sure you eat well after training sessions that are hard.

Beer and indian *is not* recovery food.

Raam

tunney wrote: »

Emmmmmmm, where's my photo of a can of worms.........

Eat less, train more, make sure you eat well after training sessions that are hard.

Beer and indian *is not* recovery food.

Agreed! I tend to go for some helpings of fish and cheese afterwards. Partly because I like it. Chocolate milk too. As for loosing weight, I've never had to do it so I couldn't say what works best.

zzzzzzzz

Wholegrain pasta ftw!

ROK ON

tunney wrote: »

Beer and indian *is not* recovery food.

Never.
Sense of irony sorely missing.;)

Caroline_ie

a lbs of fat is 3500 calories. You can 'build' the deficit by doing more exercise or/and eating less ... However, and correct me if I am wrong, if you cycle, the intencity and lengh of your cycle will affect the way the calories are spent, as in, you will either burn the calories you just ate or the ones you stored.

But really both will create a deficit ... right?

When I cycled to lose weight in 2006, I was eating little but my cycles were nowhere near tough as they are now.

zzzzzzzz

Caroline_ie wrote: »

a lbs of fat is 3500 calories. You can 'build' the deficit by doing more exercise or/and eating less ... However, and correct me if I am wrong, if you cycle, the intencity and lengh of your cycle will affect the way the calories are spent, as in, you will either burn the calories you just ate or the ones you stored.

But really both will create a deficit ... right?

When I cycled to lose weight in 2006, I was eating little but my cycles were nowhere near tough as they are now.

As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong)... If you're doing high-intensity stuff on the bike you'll be burning carbs/glycogen more so than fat. As someone previously mentioned, a higher quantity of fat is burned at low intensity. Right?

scottreynolds

Ahhh.... won't your body burn the fuel that it had available. Long slow miles doesn't necessarily equate to losing weight. If your body has sugar available it will use that - so long slow miles and lots of gluscose drinks ain't necessarily good. When you excercising at a higher rate than your body can convert you'll get 'THE BONK'.

Just to throw a spanner in the works a book I read a while ago, called the 'Body 4 Life' actually proposed that short term high intensity excercise, of about an hour, was the key to losing weight as your body still burnt calories for hours to come. I know for me its just about doing alot of miles.... its very simple when burnt calories is less than calories in you will lose weight.

Its a pretty simple way of looking at it but its the reality.

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

helpings of fish and cheese afterwards.

Me thinks there's carbs missing. Fish and cheese has good protiem and some fats but few carbs.

DirkVoodoo

Keeping your HR at around 60% of MSHR (need to know your max heart rate for this to work, obviously) will put you in the fat burning zone.

Above this will move onto aerobic and then anaerobic energy generation. As long as you avoid anaerobic exercise during your routines, you will avoid burning up your carbohydrate supplies.

Results may vary depending on your metabolism, but its a good place to start anyway.

scottreynolds

Of course all this has already been written -- from my favourite cptips website. http://www.cptips.com/weight.htm

ROK ON

tunney wrote: »

Beer and indian *is not* recovery food.

Now that I think of it, I recall reading that an Aussie bloke that used to cycle for US Postal, used precisely the beer and Indian recovery method after a tough day in the saddle. Recall reading it in Inside the Postal Bus
(Maybe the fact that I cant recall his name speaks volumes for the success of the method however.)

Raam

Bobby Jullich chimes in

blorg

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong)... If you're doing high-intensity stuff on the bike you'll be burning carbs/glycogen more so than fat. As someone previously mentioned, a higher quantity of fat is burned at low intensity. Right?

AFAIK it is a higher proportion of your energy coming from fat at lower intensities, you will still burn more fat at higher intensity than at a lower one but a lower proportion and you won't be able to keep the effort up for long periods like you can with low intensity.

I am currently just a pip below 13 stone, would aim for 11.5 for the Marmotte but would take a pip below 12 (was just over 12 when in the Alps in October.) I actually have a fair bit of fat around my belly that I could do without, I could lose two inches off that handily enough I reckon. Nothing much on my legs as far as I can make out.

My plan would be mostly diet, cutting down on the excessive amounts of chocolate (500-1,000 calories/day!), cakes and beer while maintaining the healthier stuff but practicing portion control and addressing snacking. Nothing crazy, would hope for a gradual 1-2lb/week drop. Cycling effort will be increasing naturally with the season but if anything I imagine I will be doing more recovery than last year.

I definitely have more muscle mass now than ever before and so don't want to compromise that, any tips are appreciated.

zzzzzzzz

blorg wrote: »

AFAIK it is a higher proportion of your energy coming from fat at lower intensities, you will still burn more fat at higher intensity than at a lower one but a lower proportion and you won't be able to keep the effort up for long periods like you can with low intensity.

I am currently just a pip below 13 stone, would aim for 11.5 for the Marmotte but would take a pip below 12 (was just over 12 when in the Alps in October.) I actually have a fair bit of fat around my belly that I could do without, I could lose two inches off that handily enough I reckon. Nothing much on my legs as far as I can make out.

My plan would be mostly diet, cutting down on the excessive amounts of chocolate (500-1,000 calories/day!), cakes and beer while maintaining the healthier stuff but practicing portion control and addressing snacking. Nothing crazy, would hope for a gradual 1-2lb/week drop. Cycling effort will be increasing naturally with the season but if anything I imagine I will be doing more recovery than last year.

I definitely have more muscle mass now than ever before and so don't want to compromise that, any tips are appreciated.

Ah - that would make sense alright.

I've no experience with weight loss as it happens. I seem to stay the same weight regardless of how much i eat or don't eat. Bang on 8 stone all the time.

scottreynolds

blorg wrote: »

AFAIK it is a higher proportion of your energy coming from fat at lower intensities, you will still burn more fat at higher intensity than at a lower one but a lower proportion and you won't be able to keep the effort up for long periods like you can with low intensity.

low intensity is less than 50% HR from what I read -- thats very low IMHO. I think around 60-65% is a good HR to train at for longer rides (I'll confirm what my stats are).

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

I've no experience with weight loss as it happens. I seem to stay the same weight regardless of how much i eat or don't eat. Bang on 8 stone all the time.

I'll post some stats tonight regarding some longer rides at different HR intensities. I'm interested.... oh and I have lost weight. About 20kg + in the past 6 /8 months and thats all training on the bike. My eating isn't much different but from what I am reading I need to be aimiming to reduce the potato and white rice intake in favour of better carbs.

Interesting that you body always converts carbs to fat to store them because you glycogen stores are small.

zzzzzzzz

scottreynolds wrote: »

low intensity is less than 50% HR from what I read -- thats very low IMHO. I think around 60-65% is a good HR to train at for longer rides (I'll confirm what my stats are).

Wow - that is low. I find it tough to stay below 70% on the bike for any length of time. Most of my training would be around 75 - 80%.

Sometimes I suspect that I haven't got my correct Max Heart Rate value but I've never gone over it any time I've tried to re-test it with hill repeats.

scottreynolds

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

Wow - that is low. I find it tough to stay below 70% on the bike for any length of time. Most of my training would be around 75 - 80%

Yeah, I'll have a look later if average is of the total (e.g. 50% of MAX), or of the range (restingHR + 0.5 x (MAXHR-restringHR)).

zzzzzzzz

scottreynolds wrote: »

Yeah, I'll have a look later if average is of the total (e.g. 50% of MAX), or of the range (restingHR + 0.5 x (MAXHR-restringHR)).

I've wondered about that too, actually. I'm not sure what % my Polar displays... I must check that..

Ryaner

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Did you diet as well as exercising?

I cleaned up my diet mainly, most removing white bread and related items. Generally I'll eat chinese/chipper/pizza twice a week, usually evenly spaced as it provided the best method of dropping fat without losing muscle.

Of the 14.8 lbs of weight I've lost since 1st Jan, only 2.5 lbs has been muscle, mostly in the last month due to not being in the gym as often as I should.

blorg

It's not below 50% MHR, below 50% MHR would not be exercising at all. Sources vary but 60%-70% is probably most often quoted with some suggesting a wider aerobic zone of 60-80% with the biggest proportion of fat burning occuring in the 60-70% range. There is plenty on the web but for example see here.

The whole idea of the "fat burning" zone is I think useful for people new to exercising, not very fit, who are looking to lose weight. It's enough to have a benefit but not so much that it leaves you ruined, disheartened and unable to continue the effort. For me anyway a few years ago (and this was before I got a HRM) I did long but not very intense cycles day after day while also on a diet and lost plenty of weight.

I think this might well be counterproductive if you are already pretty fit and looking to work on your form for something like race training, you would want to be looking at going faster most of the time I imagine. If you _can_ go fast most of the time then that, I imagine, is likely more beneficial (outside recovery rides.)

CPTips have a page suggesting:

Zone 1 65% of MHR (recovery rides)
Zone 2 65-72% of MHR (endurance events)
Zone 3 73-80% of MHR (high level aerobic activity)
Zone 4 84-90% of MHR (lactate threshold(LT,AT); time trialing)
Zone 5 91-100% of MHR (sprints and anaerobic training)

Also bear in mind that you need to key this off your actual MHR, I reckon mine is actually ~5% over what the 220-age formula predicts (based on hitting 105% in race/hill climb situations, I should do a ramp up test.)

Big Mig

Getting back to the original question, a hilly route in Wicklow.
Starting from Laragh head over Glenmalure then down other side then straight up the longer side of Slieve Maan .At the bottom of Slieve Maan decent turn sharp left which brings you onto a climb we call Brown Mountain (not sure of its proper name).Keep left onthe way up. Half way down the other side you come to a crossroads. Left to Greenanne and back over Glenmalure to Laragh or straight to Rathdrum and back to Laragh that way.
A lot of climbing in a short distance.
You could do two loops or one the opposite way if you want or start in Roundwood and go Sally Gap, left then into Laragh and on from there.

The Laragh side of Glenmalure is quite like the lower slopes of most Alpine climbs.
Alpe Dhuez is a real killer, steep almost the whole way.