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Etiquette in Howth road cycle lane

  • 22-03-2009 04:49PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭


    Running a cycle lane alongside a pathway is complete madness and I'd be surprised if there hasn't been a serious cyclist Vs pedestrian/dog injury yet....what doesn't help however is macho idiots deliberately flying by pedestrians who have strayed into the cyclepath in order to scare them back onto the other side...I saw one such incident this morning when some pup sped up coming up to an old couple and shouted at them as he was going by...cheers to that person for pissing all over the reputation of cyclists and causing those people an unnecessary fright.

    Yes...Cyclelanes in Dublin are a total joke designed by non-cycling DCC pencil pushers - but don't assume that because there is a cycle lane in place that you have a god-given right to be obnoxious towards others...

    Dublin cyclists need to accept the reality that they are not going to be able to cycle freely and without obstruction while they are anywhere near the city centre...if you want to do this why not head out to the countryside where you won't have to deal with pedestrians?


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭Caroline_ie


    fixieboy wrote: »
    Dublin cyclists need to accept the reality that they are not going to be able to cycle freely and without obstruction while they are anywhere near the city centre...

    I think most of us do.
    ---
    ... I am not sure I see the point of your post tbh.

    If you cycle on the road, which is where you belong ( yes it is ) you are bullied by some motorists, and when you cycle on a cycle path, you are faced with having to zig zag between mamies and their kids, dogs, which is dangerous for both you and the pedestrian... etc.

    Just the other day I was cycling through the Phoenix park towards town on my fixie, and a young couple had let their barely walking baby standing on the cycle lane, while they were getting things out of their car. I slowed down and told them to be careful with the baby on the lane, only to be told off by the mother.

    I am not an agressive cyclist at all, but I am not going to let people 'walk' all over my right to cycle in town and on a cycle lane if i want to. I am not saying we should scare the hell out of old folks having a walk, but at least inform them they are in the way, nicely


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,489 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Our urban street architecture is mostly very old, and there isn't space for everybody to have their own personal road.

    If everyone (peds, cyclists, drivers) would try to be more considerate than average, standards will improve, or at least not deteriorate, and showing others respect increases the chances that you will receive the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,506 ✭✭✭✭DirkVoodoo


    I knocked into a lady getting off the bus.

    Sounds like its entirely my fault right?

    The bus driver opened the doors as soon as the bus stopped, I was passing right alongside at this point and slowed down but didn't expect a woman to hop (yes, she literally jumped out in front of me) onto the cycle path. I jammed on the brakes, started to fall sideways and bumped her. She carried on walking.

    Personally I blamed the bus driver, he would have seen me coming up on the bus stop/cycle path and yet didnt hold the doors for a few seconds (a lot bus drivers do seem to hold the doors).

    I have had to stop at bus stops before, not slow down, actually stop while people just walk off the bus and don't bother to move into the cycle lane.

    You can't blame cyclists entirely for the poor design of cycle lanes/paths, but a bit of common sense from all sides would help. If pedestrians can't distinguish between the road, the cycle lane (it has a bike painted on it and it is clearly delineated!) and the footpath then they need as much education as bad cyclists and drivers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭72hundred


    fixieboy wrote: »
    Dublin cyclists need to accept the reality that they are not going to be able to cycle freely and without obstruction while they are anywhere near the city centre...if you want to do this why not head out to the countryside where you won't have to deal with pedestrians?

    Why? If there were proper cycle lanes in place it would only be red lights and slower cyclists that should cause obstruction.
    Just the other day I was cycling through the Phoenix park towards town on my fixie, and a young couple had let their barely walking baby standing on the cycle lane, while they were getting things out of their car. I slowed down and told them to be careful with the baby on the lane, only to be told off by the mother.

    The Phoenix park cycle lanes are turning into a joke now with the good weather, literally dozens of people over them. I think I'll be on the main road from now on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭fixieboy


    I think most of us do.
    ---
    ... I am not sure I see the point of your post tbh.

    If you cycle on the road, which is where you belong ( yes it is ) you are bullied by some motorists, and when you cycle on a cycle path, you are faced with having to zig zag between mamies and their kids, dogs, which is dangerous for both you and the pedestrian... etc.

    Just the other day I was cycling through the Phoenix park towards town on my fixie, and a young couple had let their barely walking baby standing on the cycle lane, while they were getting things out of their car. I slowed down and told them to be careful with the baby on the lane, only to be told off by the mother.

    I am not an agressive cyclist at all, but I am not going to let people 'walk' all over my right to cycle in town and on a cycle lane if i want to. I am not saying we should scare the hell out of old folks having a walk, but at least inform them they are in the way, nicely




    A rant at needless cycling machismo i suppose...I used to try the same thing and take the time to point out to people that they are in a cycle lane but 99 times out of 100 you'll get a filthy and few curses to send you on your way....the Dublin driving psyche doesn't come with a cycling patch and no matter how many cyclists freak out at drivers this won't change...equally with pedestrians...Irish people aren't inculcated with any respect for cyclists from a young age like they would be in Holland.

    Freaking out at motorists and pedestrians will not change this attitude and I think all cyclists need to deal with the persecution complex, accept that Dublin is an absolute deathtrap on the bike, and carry on cycling with that in mind.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    fixieboy wrote: »
    Freaking out at motorists and pedestrians will not change this attitude and I think all cyclists need to deal with the persecution complex, accept that Dublin is an absolute deathtrap on the bike, and carry on cycling with that in mind.

    However acting like second class citizens and sitting at the back of the bus will further erode the respect that motorist and peds have for cyclists.

    Sitting back and saying nothing is weak and wont get anything done.


    /edit and by the way, I've been to Holland and cyclists there will stop for nobody.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    fixieboy wrote: »
    Freaking out at motorists and pedestrians will not change this attitude and I think all cyclists need to deal with the persecution complex, accept that Dublin is an absolute deathtrap on the bike, and carry on cycling with that in mind.

    Dublin is not a death trap. Pedestrians and motorists in a cycle lane are generally an inconvenience, not a mortal danger.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭72hundred


    fixieboy wrote: »
    A rant at needless cycling machismo i suppose...I used to try the same thing and take the time to point out to people that they are in a cycle lane but 99 times out of 100 you'll get a filthy and few curses to send you on your way....the Dublin driving psyche doesn't come with a cycling patch and no matter how many cyclists freak out at drivers this won't change...equally with pedestrians...Irish people aren't inculcated with any respect for cyclists from a young age like they would be in Holland.

    Freaking out at motorists and pedestrians will not change this attitude and I think all cyclists need to deal with the persecution complex, accept that Dublin is an absolute deathtrap on the bike, and carry on cycling with that in mind.

    I agree with Sean K.

    Its not progressive for cycling in Dublin or anywhere to simply say there's problems and that's just how it is - be careful out there. It should be seen as a place to improve standards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    fixieboy wrote: »
    ... but don't assume that because there is a cycle lane in place that you have a god-given right to be obnoxious towards others...

    How about you don't assume that when someone in the real world does something you don't like, that it's reasonable to go on a public forum and address them personally?

    Or how about you extend your stoicism to the errant behaviour of pedestrians to cyclists as well?
    fixieboy wrote: »
    ...if you want to do this why not head out to the countryside where you won't have to deal with pedestrians?

    ...if you want to be taken seriously why don't you stop throwing your weight around with rubbish like this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭fixieboy


    72hundred wrote: »
    I agree with Sean K.

    Its not progressive for cycling in Dublin or anywhere to simply say there's problems and that's just how it is - be careful out there. It should be seen as a place to improve standards.


    "Progression" and cycling in Ireland do not go together....cycling in Dublin is now at a stage where any goodwill that once existed towards it has been eroded through continuous breaking of the law by fellow cyclists who insist on cycling on the path, breaking lights and on the wrong side of the road etc etc....also, the Greens are unlikely be back in Govt for quite some time after this term in office thus cyclings most powerful advocates will be no more...I just think there's too much bravado out there on the bikes..too many cyclists act like they have the same right to the roads as car and bus drivers and while I might want that to be the case there is absolutely no acknowledgment of this right by other road users - and there never will be.

    When has freaking out at another road user ever changed behaviour...I'd say a very very small percentage of the time....the rest of the time a confrontation merely crystalises latent hatred.

    I also think that if every commuting cyclist approached their journey with an acceptance that they are completely invisible to other road users then we would see a reduction in the number of cyclists taking risks and expressing outrage at any car that doesn't see them....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭T-Square


    I'd love to attach a airhorn the size of a ship to a bike, and ride up and down the Phoenix park cycle path blasting all the fatties who think they have a God given right to wobble up and down the designated cycle path.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭fixieboy


    niceonetom wrote: »
    How about you don't assume that when someone in the real world does something you don't like, that it's reasonable to go on a public forum and address them personally?

    Or how about you extend your stoicism to the errant behaviour of pedestrians to cyclists as well?



    ...if you want to be taken seriously why don't you stop throwing your weight around with rubbish like this?


    I'm addressing an attitude that is prevalent among many many cyclists in Dublin...an attitude that is part of the reason that cyclists are so hated by other road users. If this isn't relevant to a cycling forum then where else would you suggest I post on this one?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭Caroline_ie


    fixieboy wrote: »
    I'm addressing an attitude that is prevalent among many many cyclists in Dublin...an attitude that is part of the reason that cyclists are so hated by other road users. If this isn't relevant to a cycling forum then where else would you suggest I post on this one?

    I actually don't think it is prevalent at all among cyclists. I think most of us 'Cyclists' go about our cycling ways, without too much hassle. We are not here for a fight, nor we are here for getting bullied by others. If someone attacks me, I will fight back.

    I could also get a Panzer ...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭72hundred


    fixieboy wrote: »
    "Progression" and cycling in Ireland do not go together....cycling in Dublin is now at a stage where any goodwill that once existed towards it has been eroded....

    I think your views on the future of cycling are very negative, and unjustifiably so. Cycling in Dublin and Cork, Limerick, Galway etc. will become more popular in future for a variety of reasons; greens in gov (car tax/ cycle schemes), cost of petrol, traffic etc...
    T-Square wrote: »
    I'd love to attach a airhorn the size of a ship to a bike, and ride up and down the Phoenix park cycle path blasting all the fatties who think they have a God given right to wobble up and down the designated cycle path.

    Too be fair at least they've actually got a bike. A lot of people use it for walking in the middle of the summer because the 10 yards of grass to the footpath is too much to ask... they deserve the air horn.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    fixieboy wrote: »
    I'm addressing an attitude that is prevalent among many many cyclists in Dublin...an attitude that is part of the reason that cyclists are so hated by other road users. If this isn't relevant to a cycling forum then where else would you suggest I post on this one?

    It's not the relevance of your post that I'm taking issue with, fixieboy. It's the fact that it largely consists of a series or orders and complaints, addressed to "you" (ie. us, the members of this forum, who incidentally are unlikely to be the people you are actually pissed off with), and ironically enough, assumptions about our assumptions:
    fixieboy wrote: »
    don't assume that because there is a cycle lane in place that you have a god-given right to be obnoxious towards others...

    see? You get more love if you complain about "them", not "you". It might seem like semantics, but tone is important, and I didn't like yours.

    But wait, there's more. Do you see any irony in the fact that you are angry at people who are angry because they fail to show the same calm you do? Is it not a bit rich to rant about people ranting?

    You may engaged is some sort of PR conscious raising campaign to foster bonhomie between pedestrians and cyclists, and you may feel that your good work is being undone by "macho idiots". I, on the other hand, am trying to get places. You can be the carrot, I'll continue to be the stick. The pedestrians can dislike me all they want. On the footpath. Fear too is a motivator.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 755 ✭✭✭T-Square


    72hundred wrote: »
    Too be fair at least they've actually got a bike. A lot of people use it for walking in the middle of the summer because the 10 yards of grass to the footpath is too much to ask... they deserve the air horn.

    I should have been clearer, I was referring to fat bints who think nothing of walking with their fat butts wobbling up and down the cycle path.

    The fact that cycle paths like that are full of people,
    doesn't tell me good-will etc has gone,
    it tells me pedesterians in a cycle path just don't give a rats about anyone but their (fat) selves.

    I used to live in California, and would reguarly roller-blade or cycle up and down the fantastic cycle path that runs close to the sea, Venice beach, Malibu etc

    I made the mistake of walking on it when I first arrived there, and got rightly blasted out of the way for being illiterate when it came to reading the signs and the prints of bikes on the path itself. And not being ignorant of cyclists desire to travel at speed without running peds over.

    American cyclists/rollerblades wont' tolerate walkers on the bike path,
    how come IRish cyclists get criticised for defending their "patch"?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭scottreynolds


    Ahh.. if its any consolation I use the Bike path most days and find it fine. Sure people walk all over the place but I'm happy to share as its a lot better than the roads - I have to avoid them but I'm not going to crash into them and yell just to prove a point. As a user of a path we have a responsibility to be sensible and avoid others as well.

    Using that path in winter in far worse cause you can't see people. I hate it when I almost run into other cyclists but they have no lights.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 56 ✭✭ChipPanBuddha


    fixieboy wrote: »
    too many cyclists act like they have the same right to the roads as car and bus drivers and while I might want that to be the case there is absolutely no acknowledgment of this right by other road users - and there never will be.

    There certainly never will be if cyclists don't act like they have the same rights to the roads as other road users.
    Cycling in an assertive manner can help reinforce to other road users that you have just as much right to be there imo. It's also far safer than either acting all sheepish or the flip side, riding aggresivley.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,489 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    T-Square wrote: »
    I should have been clearer, I was referring to fat bints who think nothing of walking with their fat butts wobbling up and down the cycle path.

    The fact that cycle paths like that are full of people,
    doesn't tell me good-will etc has gone,
    it tells me pedesterians in a cycle path just don't give a rats about anyone but their (fat) selves.

    I used to live in California, and would reguarly roller-blade or cycle up and down the fantastic cycle path that runs close to the sea, Venice beach, Malibu etc

    I made the mistake of walking on it when I first arrived there, and got rightly blasted out of the way for being illiterate when it came to reading the signs and the prints of bikes on the path itself. And not being ignorant of cyclists desire to travel at speed without running peds over.

    American cyclists/rollerblades wont' tolerate walkers on the bike path,
    how come IRish cyclists get criticised for defending their "patch"?

    It's great to see that you are spreading your particularly splendid brand of body-fascism wherever you go.

    I completely agree with you. Personally, I think fat people should be executed, and rendered down for burning in power stations. Then I could charge my calorie-counting Garmin with their ugly-juice.

    Until we have passed the required legislation, I'll be getting some "You don't have to be a lazy fattie to walk there, but it helps" t-shirts printed, and wafting around Dublin on a cloud of moral superiority.

    My BMI is 20.3 today. Does that get me in your club?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Esroh


    Lumen wrote: »
    It's great to see that you are spreading your particularly splendid brand of body-fascism wherever you go.

    I completely agree with you. Personally, I think fat people should be executed, and rendered down for burning in power stations. Then I could charge my calorie-counting Garmin with their ugly-juice.

    Would the body fat not make great soap.And then just burn the rest:D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭72hundred


    Lumen wrote: »
    It's great to see ... in your club?

    I think he was getting more at the sudden influx of power walkers onto the cycle lane in the Phoenix park with the good weather.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Sunday morning heroes who go charging up and down the cycle paths of the the Phoenix Park and the Coast Road deserve to get a labrador caught in their spokes, especially those who are dodging children and old people on time trial bikes. If you want to ride fast, you go on the road.
    fixieboy wrote: »
    ...accept that Dublin is an absolute deathtrap on the bike...

    I've been cycling for years and I haven't been killed once.
    fixieboy wrote: »
    too many cyclists act like they have the same right to the roads as car and bus drivers

    They have.
    T-Square wrote: »
    I'd love to attach a airhorn the size of a ship to a bike, and ride up and down the Phoenix park cycle path blasting all the fatties who think they have a God given right to wobble up and down the designated cycle path.

    I don't know, when I got out on the bike, I'm looking to cycle not re-educate members of the public. BTW, there's nothing in the Phoenix Park by-laws about pedestrians being forbidden from walking on the cycle path.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    fixieboy wrote: »
    I also think that if every commuting cyclist approached their journey with an acceptance that they are completely invisible to other road users then we would see a reduction in the number of cyclists taking risks and expressing outrage at any car that doesn't see them....

    I do approach my commute as if I am completely invisible to other road users - well invisible unless I force them to see me, which I do my cycling in the middle of the lane ensuring that all and sundry see me. *Touches wood* its worked with regards to my safety so far.

    Now if motorists extended cyclists some courtesy I would feel safe cycling in towards the kerb and motorists would not have to have their commutes made longer by me obstructing the road and forcing them to "see" me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭Ryaner


    Lumen wrote: »
    My BMI is 20.3 today. Does that get me in your club?

    BMI is a useless measure of crap. Sooner it is completely scrapped by the medical profession, the better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭CheGuedara


    Ryaner wrote: »
    BMI is a useless measure of crap. Sooner it is completely scrapped by the medical profession, the better.

    True, while it works for the general population it bears no weight when applied to atheletes.

    It would suggest that endurance athletes like triathletes, xc runners & cyclists etc are by and large unhealthy (significantly underweight) and that power atheletes like sprinters, weightlifters, rugby players etc are unhealthy (obese).

    But for the purpose of getting Joe soap to lay off the pies n beer before he has a massive heart attack or stroke this fluffy science will do


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,223 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    fixieboy wrote:
    too many cyclists act like they have the same right to the roads as car and bus drivers

    Go away troll.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,223 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    CheGuedara wrote: »
    True, while it works for the general population it bears no weight when applied to atheletes.

    It would suggest that endurance athletes like triathletes, xc runners & cyclists etc are by and large unhealthy (significantly underweight) and that power atheletes like sprinters, weightlifters, rugby players etc are unhealthy (obese).

    I'm more towards the endurance end of the spectrum and I'm overweight according to my BMI. I'd have a lot more lean body mass and less fat than a typical person with my BMI though.
    el_tonto wrote:
    Sunday morning heroes who go charging up and down the cycle paths of the the Phoenix Park and the Coast Road deserve to get a labrador caught in their spokes, especially those who are dodging children and old people on time trial bikes. If you want to ride fast, you go on the road.

    Problem I find there is that you get some psycho bus drivers who will try and run you into the kerb when you use the road instead of the cycle path. I find the Coast road cycle paths to be grand most of the time (except when you get a bike stolen after locking it up for 20 mins in full view of everyone).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭TimAllen


    tunney wrote: »
    I do approach my commute as if I am completely invisible to other road users - well invisible unless I force them to see me, which I do my cycling in the middle of the lane ensuring that all and sundry see me. *Touches wood* its worked with regards to my safety so far.

    Now if motorists extended cyclists some courtesy I would feel safe cycling in towards the kerb and motorists would not have to have their commutes made longer by me obstructing the road and forcing them to "see" me.
    Exactly the kind of selfish ignorant behaviour that makes motorists view cyclists in a certain light.
    Well done Tunney, doing your bit for cyclist diplomacy.
    Obviously, when gleefully reporting ignorant road use and wanton disregard for other road users, you will, no doubt, only change your behaviour when you meet a motorist who takes extreme offense with your actions.
    Now, I'm no expert, but reading this forum, the country is full of maniac motorists only waiting to pounce on an innocent cyclist such as yourself. Imagine if such a maniac decided you deserved a clap on the back for your efforts, resulting in a little "spill". Of course I would condemn such actions and, would of course send chocolates/grapes for your extended stay in hospital!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭CheGuedara


    Stark wrote: »
    I'm more towards the endurance end of the spectrum and I'm overweight according to my BMI. I'd have a lot more lean body mass and less fat than a typical person with my BMI though.

    And that's the exact problem with the BMI system, it doesn't differentiate between weight contributed by muscle mass or fat mass and fails to take into account that people can for the purposes of endurance sports have very low body fat masses and comparatively low lean muscle masses but be in reality very healthy.

    But like I said before - it really is often for the purposes of getting those individuals who're toeing the line of atherosclerosis, stroke and heart attack to act to change. You can bring people in and give them blood lipid stats and cholesterol levels and get blank stares but if you use the simple BMI which they can do themselves and understand it's often a better approach.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭CheGuedara


    TimAllen wrote: »
    Exactly the kind of selfish ignorant behaviour that makes motorists view cyclists in a certain light.
    Well done Tunney, doing your bit for cyclist diplomacy.
    Obviously, when gleefully reporting ignorant road use and wanton disregard for other road users, you will, no doubt, only change your behaviour when you meet a motorist who takes extreme offense with your actions.
    Now, I'm no expert, but reading this forum, the country is full of maniac motorists only waiting to pounce on an innocent cyclist such as yourself. Imagine if such a maniac decided you deserved a clap on the back for your efforts, resulting in a little "spill". Of course I would condemn such actions and, would of course send chocolates/grapes for your extended stay in hospital!

    Listen up buddy - cyclists are entitled to the road and to 'take the lane' in order to make themselves visible to other road users. It is part of a type of safety precaution behaviours called assertive cycling - (Please feel free to peruse the cycling wiki if you want to actually learn something before opening mouth and inserting foot with what can only be described as laser accuracy)

    Now build a bridge.

    Troll.


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