Senate Debate on Late Late Show - March 20th 2009

JonathanAnon

Donie has done himself no favours by fighting angry. The Irish people dont like to be spoke at, and his reluctance to even re-evaluate the necessity will be seen as arrogant.

Dannyboy83

Pat Kenny just reminded me why I can't stand him

mikemac

A republic needs a senate. But a strong senate with proper oversight resposibilties and not the retirement home and protege grooming scheme we have now.
Are there republics out there without a senate?

When the 1937 constitution was drawn up it could have been rejected and Dev asked for a stronger President and a stronger Senate.
But it didn't happen so realy, it could need a referendum to get rid of the senate.

I say keep it

Dannyboy83

Just listening to these fellas on the television, they honestly seem to have believe that they are royalty.

Is it the House of Lords?

Rebelheart

Utter nonsense. Where on earth did you get the idea that a "republic needs a senate"? Are you running for the Seanad, or are you benefitting off somebody who is in it?

Seanad Éireann serves no purpose - none whatever - for this society. It is an elitist, parasitic, and profoundly undemocratic instituion that is the antithesis of this republic. It is also 2009, not 1709.


Should you ever think of one justification for it, come back to us and we can take you on very quickly.

ateam

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Just listening to these fellas on the television, they honestly seem to have believe that they are royalty.

Is it the House of Lords?

Completely agree, they were completely arrogant. They are paid far too much, that's the bottom line. The senate is undemocratic and useless. A republic is about democracy, so this senate can certainly be done away with (in response to the Republic point).

The Green senators had some cheek to suggest senate reform, jumping on the bandwagon, when they themselves were hand picked by Bertie Ahern.

Fascinating debate that has clearly shown how out of date and out of touch the senate is - literally and metaphorically.

JonathanAnon

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Just listening to these fellas on the television, they honestly seem to have believe that they are royalty.
Is it the House of Lords?

I think the fact that Eoghan Harris wrote for Bertie, helped get him elected last time (with his Late Late performance) and was then nominated a 70,000 a year job is proof enough that it's jobs for the boys and needs to be completely reformed.

The senators came across poorly. "I do great work, I work all the hours god sends". They dont get the fact that the public are not saying that they dont work hard, just that they are not necessary or relevant and we cant afford them.

Fiona O'Malley, Donie Cassidy, Dan Boyle etc were rejected by the electorate who DO NOT want them governing the country so why should they be appointed by another undemocratic group to hold the (albeit minute) powers of the senate.

The Dote

It doesn't matter how hard the Senators work, the fact is that they have no power to do anything. end of. It simply comes back to jobs for the boys.

Pride Fighter

Well I think the Seanad should be reformed. I think the numbers should be reduced from 60 to 50, with the 10 seat reduction coming entirely from the Taoiseach's picks. This would give the Taoiseach one pick and put him under pressure to make it a good one.

The Seanad has a veto that it cannot use, mainly due to the 11 taoiseachs picks giving various governments ironclad majorities. The reduction I propose would eliminate this. The veto the Seanad has is when half the Seanad plus one third the Dail oppose a bill the bill has to be redrawn.

As for the argument the Seanad is undemocratic, that is a bit of codswallop. County Councillors, whom we all vote for elect the Seanad. County Councillors are our main direct public servants who we all vote for. The Seanad is part of our Bicameral legislature, let them and the Dail legislate.

ateam

Seems like a political masterstroke from Fine Gael to withdraw their participation on the show. Fianna Fail has come out of the debate looking dreadful.

mikemac

Rebelheart wrote: »

Utter nonsense. Where on earth did you get the idea that a "republic needs a senate"? Are you running for the Seanad, or are you benefitting off somebody who is in it?

Yeah, I'm completly corrupt :rolleyes:
Conspiracy Theories forum is that way ---->

I pulling this from America and France, the two most well know republics around, both have senates but read my point below.

Rebelheart wrote: »

Seanad Éireann serves no purpose - none whatever - for this society. It is an elitist, parasitic, and profoundly undemocratic instituion that is the antithesis of this republic. It is also 2009, not 1709.

I agree.
So either give it more power or scrap it.
With proper oversight responsiblities it could do some good.
But it doesn't have this. In Ireland we have a weak senate and a weak President.

ateam

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Well I think the Seanad should be reformed. I think the numbers should be reduced from 60 to 50, with the 10 seat reduction coming entirely from the Taoiseach's picks. This would give the Taoiseach one pick and put him under pressure to make it a good one.
The Seanad has a veto that it cannot use, mainly due to the 11 taoiseachs picks giving various governments ironclad majorities. The reduction I propose would eliminate this. The veto the Seanad has is when half the Seanad plus one third the Dail oppose a bill the bill has to be redrawn.
As for the argument the Seanad is undemocratic, that is a bit of codswallop. County Councillors, whom we all vote for elect the Seanad. County Councillors are our main direct public servants who we all vote for. The Seanad is part of our Bicameral legislature, let them and the Dail legislate.

The people don't vote for the senators, end of. Why should the Taoiseach get even one selection - that's undemocratic.

The salaries and expenses for senators are ridiculous. The arrogance showed by the senators on all sides was inconceivable and has probably made people otherwise indifferent to the matter, much more opinionated. Political car crash television - hopefully it will lead to an end to a pointless money spender.

The Dote

The Dote wrote: »

It doesn't matter how hard the Senators work, the fact is that they have no power to do anything. end of. It simply comes back to jobs for the boys.

That's exactly it.

The only reform it needs is abolishment.

I'm actually really glad they had this little debate because I would guarantee that probably the vast majority of Late Late Show viewers were probably unaware of either what the senate did or what it even was.

Pride Fighter

ateam wrote: »

The people don't vote for the senators, end of.

Nope, the people do. In fact because more people can vote in Council elections ie people who cannot vote in Dail elections who elect the Senators who legislate in the Seanad. One could argue the Seanad is more democratic than the Dail.

brianthebard

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Well I think the Seanad should be reformed. I think the numbers should be reduced from 60 to 50, with the 10 seat reduction coming entirely from the Taoiseach's picks. This would give the Taoiseach one pick and put him under pressure to make it a good one.
The Seanad has a veto that it cannot use, mainly due to the 11 taoiseachs picks giving various governments ironclad majorities. The reduction I propose would eliminate this. The veto the Seanad has is when half the Seanad plus one third the Dail oppose a bill the bill has to be redrawn.
As for the argument the Seanad is undemocratic, that is a bit of codswallop. County Councillors, whom we all vote for elect the Seanad. County Councillors are our main direct public servants who we all vote for. The Seanad is part of our Bicameral legislature, let them and the Dail legislate.

County councillors and NUI grads surely?

Pride Fighter

brianthebard wrote: »

County councillors and NUI grads surely?

Yep, + TCD grads too. Forgot about them.

ateam

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Nope, the people do. In fact because more people can vote in Council elections ie people who cannot vote in Dail elections who elect the Senators who legislate in the Seanad. One could argue the Seanad is more democratic than the Dail.

I don't vote for a county councilor on the basis of his/her vote of a senator?

I did not vote any of the 60 members to the Seanad in 2007. It's undemocratic.

brianthebard

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Yep, + TCD grads too. Forgot about them.

TCD is part of the NUI system I'm fairly certain, along with DCU and UCD. Which means that some people have a personal vote and a co.co. vote (not that I think the latter is a valid excuse).

ateam

brianthebard wrote: »

TCD is part of the NUI system I'm fairly certain, along with DCU and UCD. Which means that some people have a personal vote and a co.co. vote (not that I think the latter is a valid excuse).

Defending the indefensible.

Pride Fighter

brianthebard wrote: »

TCD is part of the NUI system I'm fairly certain, along with DCU and UCD. Which means that some people have a personal vote and a co.co. vote (not that I think the latter is a valid excuse).

TCD is seperate, it gets its own 3 Senators, Norris, Bacik and Shane Ross. NUI gets 3 too, Ronan Mullen, Joe O'Toole and Fergal Quinn.

In my opinion

brianthebard wrote: »

TCD is part of the NUI system I'm fairly certain, along with DCU and UCD. Which means that some people have a personal vote and a co.co. vote (not that I think the latter is a valid excuse).

Trinity is a separate constituency. NUI is made up of the NUI colleges Galway, Maynooth UCC UCD. DCU and UL graduates have no vote!

I actually believe we need a senate but elected in a different way.

Thought Pat was very biased tonight.

I am not a senator nor have I ever been one likewise I am not a politician of any colour.

ateam

Pat was excellent tonight, he caught the interviewees out a number of times.

Pat said..."But you are in office, despite losing an election. The people choose not to elect you, and now you got in a back way"

Donnie: "And what's wrong with that?"

The person asking the question at the end really shattered Donie, well done for him pursuing the question again.

gurramok

And Donnie is Minister of Housing who is clueless to his portfolio.

Missed this show, glad it was aired though. Only a handful of those senators are good(Ross for example), the rest are political appointees who are has beens.

994

ateam wrote: »

Seems like a political masterstroke from Fine Gael to withdraw their participation on the show. Fianna Fail has come out of the debate looking dreadful.

Yeah, God forbid that political debate seek the good of the people and of the state. Point-scoring is where it's at.

Senate would work much better as a countrywide party list. Would allow parties to "parachute" academics & experts into the senate, and would get rid of parish pump nonsense.

Koloman

Maybe the best way to elect senators would be to have some form of list system. The parties would nominate candidates to put on the list and the percentage vote the parties get in a general election would determine the people that would be appointed.

Since these people would not have a constituency to serve, they would have the time to scrutinise the bills and to serve on the comities to investigate any wrong-doing. They would also have the power to veto any legislation they thought was incomplete. They would be the Dail's watchdog.

nesf

brianthebard wrote: »

TCD is part of the NUI system I'm fairly certain, along with DCU and UCD. Which means that some people have a personal vote and a co.co. vote (not that I think the latter is a valid excuse).

Nope not at all. TCD is in the University of Dublin (and is the sole college in the university). The rest of the colleges are in the NUI (for the most part, I think DCU is outside of the two systems but don't quote me on that).

Now here's the kick in the teeth. The University of Dublin, i.e. Trinity elect as many Senators as the NUI does. The six university Senators are split into 2 pairs of 3, one pair elected by the NUI colleges and the other pair by Trinity grads.

Ludicrous tbh. But then, as a UCC grad I'd have to say that.

People bitch about how graduates get to elect Senators but honestly everyone but Trinity grads are getting screwed over by the current system. My vote as a UCC grad counts for far less than if I was a Trinity grad (in that there are a lot more NUI grads than Trinity grads and the power of your vote is markedly less because of this).

Bog Butter

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/government-in-ireland/national-government/houses-of-the-oireachtas/functions_of_the_seanad

A typical working day for a Senator involves researching and preparing speeches for debate on social, economic and financial issues. Senators are also involved in drafting amendments to Bills and examining proposals for new legislation. They contribute to debates on Bills and other important matters. They vote on issues in the House.

The Raven.

nesf wrote: »

Nope not at all. TCD is in the University of Dublin (and is the sole college in the university). The rest of the colleges are in the NUI (for the most part, I think DCU is outside of the two systems but don't quote me on that).

Now here's the kick in the teeth. The University of Dublin, i.e. Trinity elect as many Senators as the NUI does. The six university Senators are split into 2 pairs of 3, one pair elected by the NUI colleges and the other pair by Trinity grads.

Ludicrous tbh. But then, as a UCC grad I'd have to say that.

People bitch about how graduates get to elect Senators but honestly everyone but Trinity grads are getting screwed over by the current system. My vote as a UCC grad counts for far less than if I was a Trinity grad (in that there are a lot more NUI grads than Trinity grads and the power of your vote is markedly less because of this).

I too had an NUI vote. I must say I wasn't very impressed with the choice of candidates. It seems that TCD also had a better selection. I would have had no problem with Norris, Bacik or Ross.

There is something that has been puzzling me ever since though. Every candidate sent me two of everything. The amount of paper that came through my letterbox was astounding. Does anyone know why this was the case ??

As regards the Late Late Show, Pat Kenny seemed very aggrieved at Fine Gael for refusing to attend. I must say I can't blame them. I thought the three who did were either very brave or somewhat foolhardy. I wonder how much notice they were given. Did they know what an aggressive introduction they were about to experience :eek:?? I'm not saying that Ian O'Doherty was wrong in what he said, but he really dragged them over the coals. It was quite startling. I'm sure we haven't heard the end of this !!

turgon

Koloman wrote: »

Maybe the best way to elect senators would be to have some form of list system.

A party list system would be better suited for the dail wouldnt it, as in the results would be used to create the government. That way the government would ideologically represent the people. Oversight then by the reps of each constituency, to ensure to one area targeted.

I would keep party lists to a provincial basis, or the same as the Euro constituencies.

NaZionist

I noticed that the audience never applauded anything said by any of the senators yet they applauded many of the points made by those who spoke out against the Seanad. If that's a fair indication of what the general populace thinks of the Seanad they should shut the place now.

What sort of republic needs an elite to help govern them? Is someone who attended Trinity a better citizen then me? Should he have two votes? One exactly the same as me and then another in a private election that the vast majority of citizens never have access to but are bound by it's outcome?

On a different tack I find it hard to take seriously a man who is in denial about his own baldness. If he can't face reality on a personal level, what other facts does he deny? Donie you're bald, lose the wig, or at the very least get a new one that matches your hair colour. Who knows you could probably put in the receipt as an expense.

Rebelheart

I cannot believe people are still talking about "reform" of this ridiculous institution. As many have already said: it should be abolished without delay.

Anybody who defends this institution by pointing out its "consultative" aspect is clearly oblivious to the development of the Dáil's committee system, which does this much more extensively. The Seanad serves no consultative purpose, and certainly not one worth over €115,000 plus per annum per member. That is a stomach-turning amount of money. And to think that people such as Eoghan Harris receive it for public acts of political sycophancy....

This Late Late debate confirmed once again what we all know: the sole purpose of Seanad Éireann is to give jobs to the boys. Did you see Cassidy and the rest of them fight to keep their €115,000 plus jobs a year? It was cringe-inducing as these parasites attempted to defend their financial interests. The Green Party, in the form of Dan Boyle and Deirdre de Búrca, have also joined this ignominious and most reprehensible grouping in this recession. How they have lost the high moral ground and been purchased by this most unsavoury and unworthy aspect of the Irish political system.

Any institution that allows me to vote simply because I had the good fortune to have attended a particular university but refuses to allow my parents, who financed that attendance, to vote is beyond contemptible. Shame on anybody who exercises his/her right to vote in these elections given the sheer arrogance and distain which this institution holds for so many intelligent and hardworking citizens of Ireland. It is unworthy of us, our history, and the vibrant, efficient, dynamic and more egalitarian country which so many of us aspire to create.

Rebelheart

Pat Kenny is given an awful amount of stick, much of it justified, but last night he was on top form. He was clearly very well aware of the issues. And he held his ground, and persisted with the tough questions.

It was genuinely refreshing from the man who made his career all those years ago asking the tough political questions on Today Tonight. We need more of it.

Fine Gael's absence was cowardly. One thing unites all the parties: Seanad Éireann is the fallback position for all politicians, because some day when they too are rejected by the electorate they will need that €115,000+ that Seanad Éireann offers. Otherwise they'd have to get a real job like the rest of us. Hence they talk of "reform", because talk of "redundancy" is only for us little people.

brianthebard

ateam wrote: »

Defending the indefensible.

I'm not defending anything?

brianthebard

nesf wrote: »

Nope not at all. TCD is in the University of Dublin (and is the sole college in the university). The rest of the colleges are in the NUI (for the most part, I think DCU is outside of the two systems but don't quote me on that).

Now here's the kick in the teeth. The University of Dublin, i.e. Trinity elect as many Senators as the NUI does. The six university Senators are split into 2 pairs of 3, one pair elected by the NUI colleges and the other pair by Trinity grads.

Ludicrous tbh. But then, as a UCC grad I'd have to say that.

People bitch about how graduates get to elect Senators but honestly everyone but Trinity grads are getting screwed over by the current system. My vote as a UCC grad counts for far less than if I was a Trinity grad (in that there are a lot more NUI grads than Trinity grads and the power of your vote is markedly less because of this).

Thanks for clearing that up. So if you are a tcd grad and then do a post grad at an nui do you have a vote in both constituencies?

ateam

NaZionist wrote: »

On a different tack I find it hard to take seriously a man who is in denial about his own baldness. If he can't face reality on a personal level, what other facts does he deny? Donie you're bald, lose the wig, or at the very least get a new one that matches your hair colour. Who knows you could probably put in the receipt as an expense.

This could trivialise the very serious matter of the Seanad. But yes, what sort of man would go on the Late Late Show with such a blatant wig and everybody in the country knows it. Reflects his arrogance.

The senators are out of touch with the public. Even David Norris was shown up. What was his rant at the end supposed to achieve? He should of kept his mouth shut.

NaZionist

NaZionist wrote: »

I noticed that the audience never applauded anything said by any of the senators yet they applauded many of the points made by those who spoke out against the Seanad. If that's a fair indication of what the general populace thinks of the Seanad they should shut the place now.

What sort of republic needs an elite to help govern them? Is someone who attended Trinity a better citizen then me? Should he have two votes? One exactly the same as me and then another in a private election that the vast majority of citizens never have access to but are bound by it's outcome?

On a different tack I find it hard to take seriously a man who is in denial about his own baldness. If he can't face reality on a personal level, what other facts does he deny? Donie you're bald, lose the wig, or at the very least get a new one that matches your hair colour. Who knows you could probably put in the receipt as an expense.

We're a small country. About the size of an American state. Being governed by a government over half the size of the entire US.
We don't need a senate.

People are calling for it to have more power...why? Why not just get rid of it. We've done without it for so long. If we end up getting to vote for the senate, what difference would it make? It would just reflect the Dail in party numbers and voting power and make not one bit of difference to any bill passed.

TomRooney

mikemac wrote: »

A republic needs a senate. But a strong senate with proper oversight resposibilties and not the retirement home and protege grooming scheme we have now.
Are there republics out there without a senate?

When the 1937 constitution was drawn up it could have been rejected and Dev asked for a stronger President and a stronger Senate.
But it didn't happen so realy, it could need a referendum to get rid of the senate.

I say keep it

well if what you say is true, then surely these people out of a sense of duty and patriotism should attend the senate on a voluntary basis, i wonder how many of these senators would be arguing in favour of keeping the senate if it was actualy a voluntary institution......my guess is none.

turgon

Its funny, the people who bitch about the way Cowen runs the country are also the ones who want the Seaned abolished instead of reformed. They obviously cant see that the lack of an effective Seaned is the reason PMs have such power here.

turgon

turgon wrote: »

Its funny, the people who bitch about the way Cowen runs the country are also the ones who want the Seaned abolished instead of reformed. They obviously cant see that the lack of an effective Seaned is the reason PMs have such power here.

Just to repeat: If we end up getting to vote for the senate, what difference would it make? It would just reflect the Dail in party numbers and voting power and make not one bit of difference to any bill passed.

turgon

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Just to repeat: If we end up getting to vote for the senate, what difference would it make? It would just reflect the Dail in party numbers and voting power and make not one bit of difference to any bill passed.

*sigh*

In the same way that the number of members each party has in the county councils exactly reflects the dail? I think not.

One could obviously have a different form of voting too.

turgon

turgon wrote: »

*sigh*

In the same way that the number of members each party has in the county councils exactly reflects the dail? I think not.

One could obviously have a different form of voting too.

*Sigh*

Such as?

And how do you propose we elect to the senate then? People aren't going to put FF as number one and then elect FG for the senate so that their choice of TD can have his bill's blocked.

I havn't so far seen one decent point as to why the senate is needed.

The only elected person with the power to block anything is the President and he/she is generally supported by the government in power at the time.

turgon

Rojomcdojo, if one was to plot support for FF in the last few years it would look like a series of bumps, with the high point being general elections and the low local elections.

Even just having a senate election in the middle of two general ones would give a different senate compositions.

If party lists are used a more diverse range of parties is formed, which is disadvantageous to both FF and FG, though unfortunately not to the left wingers.

nesf

brianthebard wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up. So if you are a tcd grad and then do a post grad at an nui do you have a vote in both constituencies?

I think it's where you did your undergrad that decides which constituency you're part of. But I could be wrong.

livvy

Not a fan of Pat K. but i feel he represented joe public with his line of questioning.

Mikel

This will be seen to be up there with P Flynn in terms of pomposity, bluster and downright arrogance.
O'Doherty didn't have to argue against them, just let them dig a deeper hole for themselves.

dave-higgz

The point was made on the show that Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese were political failures at first and then rose up. The point trying to be made that the Seanad gives people a second chance. Then you hear Dan Boyle on about his 5,000 first preference votes. Maybe you should have done more to convince some second preference voters!!

If you are rejected in politics you are obviously not ready yet or are just not suited for the job, that's what democracy is all about. the Mary presidents were rightly turned down at the time and then matured and proved themselves, however they didn't waste taxpayers money in their own political experience gathering. We the taxpayer are not going to fund the raring of new politician's, they can do that in their own time!

dave-higgz

dave-higgz wrote: »

The point was made on the show that Mary Robinson and Mary McAleese were political failures at first and then rose up. The point trying to be made that the Seanad gives people a second chance. Then you hear Dan Boyle on about his 5,000 first preference votes. Maybe you should have done more to convince some second preference voters!!

If you are rejected in politics you are obviously not ready yet or are just not suited for the job, that's what democracy is all about. the Mary presidents were rightly turned down at the time and then matured and proved themselves, however they didn't waste taxpayers money in their own political experience gathering. We the taxpayer are not going to fund the raring of new politician's, they can do that in their own time!

I'm not quite sure how Mary McAleese has 'proved' herself, besides proving that she can get elected with the backing of FF which were the most popular party at the time.

I mean honestly, if it was just coming up to her second term now, Dustin the turkey could run against her and win.

old boy

ahh poor ould senator donie (the wig) cassidy who used to / does have his passport name as senator donie cassidy, so as to get top treatment when he goes to the U.S. with his country and western acts. the most important thing is has anyone who died for this country died for this ****e (the senead)

nesf

Listening to it. Doherty (the person representing the abolition side) did nothing but repeat the same populist nonsense. At no point did he show any detailed knowledge of the workings of the institution he wants to get rid of, which should worry anyone finding themselves agreeing with him.

The Senators spouted the same Political self-important guff. But they're politicians who don't get much air-time so honestly, what you expect.


I'd heavily favour reform of the Seanad and it being made a second house elected by universal franchise that has teeth and can act as a balance to the powers of the Dáil. We theoretically all get to elect Senators since we elect the Councillors who elect them, but ideally a clearer mandate to people would be preferable.

Though deciding how to draw the constituencies would be a bloody problem.


Edit:

For any who missed it you can get it with this link: http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/

It starts after the first hour, so you can skip all that.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dr Galen

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

not bad idea. might help to combat the Senate elections becoming a mirror of the Dail. Help to create proper oversight.

a system like this would prevent failed Dail runners being parachuted into the Senate, a system which is pretty much a joke