Who's at fault?

Random

See the below scenario.



Green car is going straight through (second exit) across the roundabout from A and is at B when the incident occurs.
Red car is going right (third exit).

The roundabout is one of those painted on roundabouts.

There is a yellow box all around the roundabout.

Green car moves at the same time as red car. Red car cuts directly across the roundabout.

Red car hits side of green car.

Who's at fault here in your opinion?

Mena

Who entered the round-about first? - leave that, I re-read it.

Other than that, from what I can see here it would be the red car's fault, hitting the side of the green car. Not paying attention at all... from what I can see. And you say red cut across the round-about. Totally red's fault.

Vanbis

GREEN is at fault. You always give way to traffic on the right.

L1011

Vanbis wrote: »

GREEN is at fault. You always give way to traffic on the right.

Red was an entire port around the roundabout before they mounted the roundabout (well, its painted on, but still) and drove over it. There really isn't a hope in hell that anyone other than red would get blamed.

[standard disclaimer]I'm neither a lawyer nor an insurance assesor however...

Random

My reasoning is that regardless of who did what and where before or after red cut across the roundabout and has to be in the wrong surely? Green moved out in the knowledge that they had a sufficient amount of time to complete their maneuvour and then red decided to disregard a roundabout?

Mena

Random wrote: »

My reasoning is that regardless of who did what and where before or after red cut across the roundabout and has to be in the wrong surely? Green moved out in the knowledge that they had a sufficient amount of time to complete their maneuvour and then red decided to disregard a roundabout?

That's how I see it as well. What the law and/or Insurance assessors will say is a whole other ball game.

The Muppet

It's difficult to tell who's at fault from the drawing. You must give way to your right and it looks like red would have been on the roundabout first (red car is further into the junction than green) so I think green is in the wrong. did red indicate right?

L1011

The Muppet wrote: »

It's difficult to tell who's at fault from the drawing. You must give way to your right and it looks like red would have been on the roundabout first (red car is further into the junction than green) so I think green is in the wrong.

Do you never enter a roundabout when theres someone entering two ports away then?

Red drove *over* the roundabout, fundamentally breaking the law in the process.

The Muppet

MYOB wrote: »

Do you never enter a roundabout when theres someone entering two ports away then?

Red drove *over* the roundabout, fundamentally breaking the law in the process.

First on the roundabout has right of way . Green should not have entered the roundabout until it was clear to do so.

Random

If you wait for the roundabout to be completely clear before entering you will never get anywhere. My understanding of "give way to traffic from the right" is that if it's at risk of hitting you then you don't go and let him past, if it's not then off you go. If you applied the logic you're using to a T-Junction you could be sat there all day too.

L1011

The Muppet wrote: »

First on the roundabout has right of way . Green should not have entered the roundabout until it was clear to do so.

Except it was clear to do so until Red DROVE OVER THE ROUNDABOUT. Did you actually look at the diagram? Its not showing a nice line going around the centre.

If by some warped manner you're thinking its OK to drive over it and treat it like a standard four way crossroads - in that case Red was crossing on-coming traffic and wouldn't have had right of way anyway...

Random

The Muppet wrote: »

First on the roundabout has right of way . Green should not have entered the roundabout until it was clear to do so.

Is this comment taking into account that the red car essentially drove diagnolly across the roundabout to the 3rd exit? You still feel green is in the wrong?

Turner

Red car hit into green car so red is at fault.

If green car was parked/broken down in the spot where collision occurred and red car had hit into it it would be the same.

Why didnt red car brake before impact??

Was not paying attention in my opinion.

Keith C

was there a yield sign when green came up to said "roundabout"?

What type of roundabout is it? is it a big roundabout or one of those little white circles in the road?

L1011

Keith C wrote: »

was there a yield sign when green came up to said "roundabout"?

Even if not present you'd have to yield - as its a roundabout. However Red wasn't in a position to require you to yield until they drove over the roundabout.

If it was a physical roundabout and someone drove over it and crashed in to someone on the opposite port there wouldn't be a question. Button roundabouts are NOT advisory.

The Muppet

Random wrote: »

Is this comment taking into account that the red car essentially drove diagnolly across the roundabout to the 3rd exit? You still feel green is in the wrong?

Well that's the bit of the drawing that makes it difficult to tell TBH. Te be really sure you would need to have the road measurements, Some of those roundabouts are so tight you have little option than to drive over them. Was red indicating right before the collision ?

Chief---

Chief--- wrote: »

Red car hit into green car so red is at fault.

If green car was parked/broken down in the spot where collision occurred and red car had hit into it it would be the same.

Why didnt red car brake before impact??

Was not paying attention in my opinion.

This is a ridiculous statement, if a car hits another MOVING car that does not mean they're at fault! if a car pulls out in front of you and you don't have time to stop then it is the car that pulled out's fault. Not necessarily applicable in this situation but in general your statement is wrong.

Edit: also, it does not state anywhere that the red car did not break. He may not have been left enough stopping distance when the car pulled out in front of him.

Random

My main problem here is that red cut diagnoally across the roundabout straight from their starting point to the 3rd turn off. They made no attempt to go around the roundabout.

The roundabout is a small painted on one, my diagram probably doesn't do it all justice.

It's the roundabout at the junction of Woodview Park, Auburn Ave, Pecks Lane and the N3 in Castleknock. See below:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=castleknock,+dublin+15&ie=UTF8&ll=53.379908,-6.35852&spn=0.002157,0.004828&t=h&z=18

bazz26

This gives a whole new meaning to giving way to traffic already on the roundabout. I don't think it was supposed to be taken literally though.

Hope nobody was injured.

L1011

Know that roundabout, its large enough that passenger cars would never have to cut across the button; they can always go around properly.

Random

Random wrote: »

My main problem here is that red cut diagnoally across the roundabout straight from their starting point to the 3rd turn off. They made no attempt to go around the roundabout.

The roundabout is a small painted on one, my diagram probably doesn't do it all justice.

It's the roundabout at the junction of Woodview Park, Auburn Ave, Pecks Lane and the N3 in Castleknock. See below:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=castleknock,+dublin+15&ie=UTF8&ll=53.379908,-6.35852&spn=0.002157,0.004828&t=h&z=18

well I have to say if it's one of the small painted ones, they are sometimes very difficult to go around properly, infact I just had a similar problem earlier this evening in that I have little choice but to go over a roundabout close to my house because of the way it's positioned, if the red car had his right indicator on then you should probably have given him right of way.

Edit - Just saw MYOB's post so my argument probably doesn't stand in this case

Random

This is the view from the green car at point A. This really doesn't give a view of the whole roundabout. This is just for the person who asked re signs on greens approach to roundabout.

Keith C

if its a tight roundabout that is painted on the ground then the red car would have to drive over part of it (been over many in my time done the same thing) then green will be at fault as they didnt give way to traffic already on "roundabout" IMO of course.

Sure let us know what the insurance company thinks, were you the red or grenn car?

return guide

Where is this ?

A yellow box the whole way round a roundabout?
a dual carrigeway meeting a single carageway with a painted roundabout?

OP are you trolling? if not pics please.

Random

I know my original diagram isn't great (i.e. it's sh!te!) but can you imagine the red car went diagnolly across the roundabout crossing the very centre point of the roundabout on his way. He didn't cut a bit of it, he basically turn as if it was a crossroads with no roundabout.

no excuse - after seeing that pic, red car was in the wrong, it looks like a fairly big roundabout tbh.

L1011

the "dual" bit would be the four lanes on to the Auburn Avenue Roundabout on the N3 itself I take it, green coming from Woodview out on to that bit of Auburn and red coming from Pecks Lane on to same?

Kimbot

Red is 100% at fault, no matter what way you look at it. They didn't stay on the road, they went up on a roundabout innstead of around it. If the went around it then it would have taken longer so they wouldn't have hit the green car.

If gardai were called to the scene then they would have told the drivers that red was at fault.

Random

Keith C wrote: »

if its a tight roundabout that is painted on the ground then the red car would have to drive over part of it (been over many in my time done the same thing) then green will be at fault as they didnt give way to traffic already on "roundabout" IMO of course.

Sure let us know what the insurance company thinks, were you the red or grenn car?

We all drive over mini roundabouts like they're not there. We all speed. We all reverse out onto main roads without looking. None of us are perfect and we all screw up. I'm looking for a right and wrong though, rather than a justification. Also in this case the roundabout is plenty big for the car to get around without having to cut into it. The reason it's painted on I'm guessing is for double decker buses, trucks, etc.

return guide wrote: »

Where is this ?

A yellow box the whole way round a roundabout?
a dual carrigeway meeting a single carageway with a painted roundabout?

OP are you trolling? if not pics please.

Trolling? I'm just gonna assume you've missed most of the thread (there are a lot of replys coming in!) and that once you refresh it'll all make more sense to you

The Muppet

Random wrote: »

My main problem here is that red cut diagnoally across the roundabout straight from their starting point to the 3rd turn off. They made no attempt to go around the roundabout.

The roundabout is a small painted on one, my diagram probably doesn't do it all justice.

It's the roundabout at the junction of Woodview Park, Auburn Ave, Pecks Lane and the N3 in Castleknock. See below:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=castleknock,+dublin+15&ie=UTF8&ll=53.379908,-6.35852&spn=0.002157,0.004828&t=h&z=18

TBH Its a tough call, too many variables to be sure from the info given. Were the Gardai called and if so did they offer an opinion on who was at fault?

Random

Random wrote: »

Trolling? I'm just gonna assume you've missed most of the thread (there are a lot of replys coming in!) and that once you refresh it'll all make more sense to you

and the fact that you're a mod with about 10,000 more post :rolleyes:

L1011

Variables? Driver drives over rather large roundabout, crashes in to other car. Seems rather clear cut to me.

Random

MYOB wrote: »

the "dual" bit would be the four lanes on to the Auburn Avenue Roundabout on the N3 itself I take it, green coming from Woodview out on to that bit of Auburn and red coming from Pecks Lane on to same?

Yes. On my diagram 6 O'clock is Woodview, 12 O'Clock is Pecks Lane, 3 O'Clock is Auburn Ave and 9 O'Clock heads out to the big N3 roundabout.

jonny24ie wrote: »

Red is 100% at fault, no matter what way you look at it. They didn't stay on the road, they went up on a roundabout innstead of around it. If the went around it then it would have taken longer so they wouldn't have hit the green car.

This is my logic and thinking on it.

L1011

Just tell me, 'red' wasn't actually a dark blue family hatchback by any chance? Know a particularly poor driver that end of Castleknock

wilson10

If Random is telling it as it was, ie. both cars entered at about the same time and red cut across the centre then it is patently obvious that red was in the wrong.

The problem is, will red tell it as it was.

Random

++ edit - Scratch that. That's inaccurate.

Y2J_MUFC

It really depends on how big the painted roundabout it and if green could have gone safely past if red had of taken the full way around.

But, I would say red. Both entered the roundabout at the same time, if green would have had enough time to go clear the roundabout if red didn't drive up on it and smack into him/her, then red is in the wrong.

It depends on how big the painted roundabout it, and what angle they drove across it. But if both entered at the exact same time, then red is in the wrong, presumably it takes long to go 3/4 the way around it, than 1/2 around it.

Random

wilson10 wrote: »

If Random is telling it as it was, ie. both cars entered at about the same time and red cut across the centre then it is patently obvious that red was in the wrong.

The problem is, will red tell it as it was.

Does red need to tell it how it was? When the collision occurs red is sitting on the roundabout !

return guide

[QUOTE=Random;



Trolling? I'm just gonna assume you've missed most of the thread (there are a lot of replys coming in!) and that once you refresh it'll all make more sense to you [/QUOTE]

Apologies OP,
it was the yellow box bit that i focused on.

seanybiker

red car was the bold boy

seanybiker

seanybiker wrote: »

red car was the bold boy

or girl

sexist

The Muppet

MYOB wrote: »

Variables? Driver drives over rather large roundabout, crashes in to other car. Seems rather clear cut to me.

I've just seen the pictures and the round about does look big enough to drive around . The op has still not said wheter red was indication right or not, If red was indicating right green should not have entered the roundabout until it was clear to do so. Were Gardia called and if so who did they think was to blame? Did witnesses confirm that red cut right across the roundabout?

L1011

The Muppet wrote: »

I've just seen the pictures and the round about does look big enough to drive around . The op has still not said wheter red was indication right or not, If red was indicating right green should not have entered the roundabout until it was clear to do so. Were Gardia called and if so who did they think was to blame? Did witnesses confirm that red cut right across the roundabout?

The roundabout is large enough that someone on the opposite port indicating right means it is still clear to enter...

Random

No witness. No garda. Therefore whether or not someone indicating is irrelevant?

For the record, this accident didn't happen but very nearly did and I'm just trying to work it all through in my head to see who's right and who's wrong.

And even if Red was indicating, surely it's reasonable for Green to assume that red is going to follow around the roundabout correctly and therefore has no obligation to yield as the way is clear ?

Stevie Dakota

From the picture I would say the red car, it is smaller than the green car, and red, boy racer in Jap import I bet, GUILTY!!!

The Muppet

Random wrote: »

No witness. No garda. Therefore whether or not someone indicating is irrelevant?

For the record, this accident didn't happen but very nearly did and I'm just trying to work it all through in my head to see who's right and who's wrong.

And even if Red was indicating, surely it's reasonable for Green to assume that red is going to follow around the roundabout correctly and therefore has no obligation to yield as the way is clear ?

Never assume anything when driving. I believe red was fist on the rounabout indicated right, green didn't give way when entering the roundabout and would have been in the wrong if a collisiion had occured.

return guide

Random wrote: »

For the record, this accident didn't happen but very nearly did and I'm just trying to work it all through in my head to see who's right and who's wrong.

QUOTE]

Its a pity you did not stste this in the first place, it would have saved a lot of confusion.

You will never know the potential outcome because luckily it never came to court.

return guide

return guide wrote: »

Its a pity you did not stste this in the first place, it would have saved a lot of confusion.

what difference would it have made????

Random

The Muppet wrote: »

Never assume anything when driving. I believe red was fist on the rounabout indicated right, green didn't give way when entering the roundabout and would have been in the wrong if a collisiion had occured.

I knew someone would come back with that. It's fair enough to say don't assume and expect the unexpected but at the same time you need to make progress. The real world and roundabouts work in a certain way and that certainly is not waiting for it to be completely clear before entering.

The ROTR say to give way to traffic on the roundabout already - if it's a roundabout they cut across it and ignored it and they're wrong. If we're saying the roundabout doesn't really exist then it's a crossroads with roads of equal important and they crossed into the other person (I'm getting ridicolous now, that's a bad example .. I hope you get my poorly constructed point though).

Random

return guide wrote: »

Random wrote: »

For the record, this accident didn't happen but very nearly did and I'm just trying to work it all through in my head to see who's right and who's wrong.

Its a pity you did not stste this in the first place, it would have saved a lot of confusion.

You will never know the potential outcome because luckily it never came to court.

And therefore it's not worth discussing? I feel it is as it will enable me to judge situations more clearly and view things perhaps from a different angle.

Deleted User wrote: »

what difference would it have made????

My thoughts exactly, none.