Audio Education in Ireland

PaulBrewer

I was recently at a meeting with representatives from many European countries who work in Audio. Some engineers, some dealers,some studio owners, some manufacturers.

The conversation turned to Recording Education. Virtually everyone agreed that the quality of Education in their country was too low.

Most felt that the people 'graduating' weren't employable and that courses focused on the wrong elements.

What do the posters here think?

I know from my limited experience with Education is that there are certainly people teaching who , in my opinion, shouldn't be. Similarly there are some guys that are extremely talented in this area.

At the same time there are some courses about which I hear nothing but positives.

I've set a poll up which can be edited if better questions arise.

DamagedTrax

i voted excellent because of where i study.. cant really say about other places but if this was an overall poll i'd probably say average.

tubedude

Good idea for a poll, but of course it does depend on where you are studying. I've done a few courses, most of which don't focus on employment. They are more catered to the hobbyist. They may have great teachers, but will not be much use for the person trying to make a career for themselves.
There are places though that try really hard in that aspect for the aspiring professional that have a good reputation. Pulse Recording would be one of them.

Yeah I voted average.

PaulBrewer

tubedude wrote: »

Good idea for a poll, but of course it does depend on where you are studying. I've done a few courses, most of which don't focus on employment. They are more catered to the hobbyist. They may have great teachers, but will not be much use for the person trying to make a career for themselves.
There are places though that try really hard in that aspect for the aspiring professional that have a good reputation. Pulse Recording would be one of them.

Yeah I voted average.

Good points. It is the ones that profess to prepare one for a professional career I refer to.

Pulse is one of the ones I've heard only good about.

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Good points. It is the ones that profess to prepare one for a professional career I refer to.

Pulse is one of the ones I've heard only good about.

the only bad thing ill say about pulse is that i cant spend more time there. lecturers are great (and include 2 of the best engineers in the country), atmosphere is very profesional but relaxed and you get your hands on the best of equipment - its the perfect place for someone who WANTS to learn.

ive heard STC is pretty good too.. their specs look awesome, dunno about the teaching though?

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

ive heard STC is pretty good too.. their specs look awesome, dunno about the teaching though?

In what way 'awesome'?

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

In what way 'awesome'?

in the awesome way :rolleyes:

just have a look at the kit they have and their rooms.. pretty nice looking.

TelePaul

I never had the chance to study sound engineering or production - never been in a 'real' studio! However, a close friend of mine recounted his experiences to me. I wont name names, but he's in his first year of an engineering course in a reputable Irish college. They had their first 'hands-on' experience with tracking and mixing last week - and he described the affair as a mix of cocaine, pills, acid, and oh yeah, a bit of recording.

Now this may sound like I'm tarring all sound engineering students with the same brush, but I'm not. It's just that he wouldn't be the first guy I've met to come out of music production courses knowing more about having a good time than about mic technique. I think sound engineering tends to attract young people who at eighteen or nineteen might not be mature enough to take it seriously - and lets face it, it's a seriously complex subject that requires patience and dedication.

Maybe a more rigorous application process should be enforced, especially if supply far outstrips demand? What exactly ARE the requirements for entry into one of these courses?

DamagedTrax

I think sound engineering tends to attract young people who at eighteen or nineteen might not be mature enough to take it seriously - and lets face it, it's a seriously complex subject that requires patience and dedication.

agree 100% - im so glad i've only gone to college now that im old enough to be there for the right reasons.

Maybe a more rigorous application process should be enforced, especially if supply far outstrips demand? What exactly ARE the requirements for entry into one of these courses?

definitly - but on the other hand they are a business not a babysitter. the ones who want to learn will still learn by making themselves known for their dedication. the rest will just disappear off into the fog..

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

I never had the chance to study sound engineering or production - never been in a 'real' studio! However, a close friend of mine recounted his experiences to me. I wont name names, but he's in his first year of an engineering course in a reputable Irish college. They had their first 'hands-on' experience with tracking and mixing last week - and he described the affair as a mix of cocaine, pills, acid, and oh yeah, a bit of recording.

Now this may sound like I'm tarring all sound engineering students with the same brush, but I'm not. It's just that he wouldn't be the first guy I've met to come out of music production courses knowing more about having a good time than about mic technique. I think sound engineering tends to attract young people who at eighteen or nineteen might not be mature enough to take it seriously - and lets face it, it's a seriously complex subject that requires patience and dedication.

Maybe a more rigorous application process should be enforced, especially if supply far outstrips demand? What exactly ARE the requirements for entry into one of these courses?

Good Points TP. The nature of the Biz would of course suggest that a certain proportion of applicants will be attracted by the perceived Glamour element (and don't that pass quickly!)

One course administrator I spoke to expected to loose around 5 of his 25ish students after the first year, so perhaps, like the Jungle, there's a natural selection process.

Seziertisch

TelePaul wrote: »

I never had the chance to study sound engineering or production - never been in a 'real' studio! However, a close friend of mine recounted his experiences to me. I wont name names, but he's in his first year of an engineering course in a reputable Irish college. They had their first 'hands-on' experience with tracking and mixing last week - and he described the affair as a mix of cocaine, pills, acid, and oh yeah, a bit of recording.

Now this may sound like I'm tarring all sound engineering students with the same brush, but I'm not. It's just that he wouldn't be the first guy I've met to come out of music production courses knowing more about having a good time than about mic technique. I think sound engineering tends to attract young people who at eighteen or nineteen might not be mature enough to take it seriously - and lets face it, it's a seriously complex subject that requires patience and dedication.

Maybe a more rigorous application process should be enforced, especially if supply far outstrips demand? What exactly ARE the requirements for entry into one of these courses?

Ay, the lack of entry requirements is a big problem. I have met quite a few people who have done courses and have said that they reckoned about 80% of their fellows were a complete dead loss. Obviously they can't be failing that many so the standard is dragged down.

Example, the SAE in Germany requires students to do a 3-month Basic Media Cert before starting sound engineering or multimedia studies proper. To get this cert they are required to pass a multiple choice exam. (In the past at least) these questions included one that went along the lines of:

Which of the following is not found in sound engineering?
A a high pass filter
B a low pass filter
C a mountain pass filter

...

PaulBrewer

[QUOTE=Niall - Dahlia;5948758 Big business. Bigger than recording! [/QUOTE]

Ain't THAT the truth ...

TheAmateur

I wanted to do audio engineering but I talked to people working in the industry and I was told that the job situation here wasn't great. Then I looked at international forums and it read the same internationally. Also, the pure audio engineering courses didn't seem to be integrated too well with the CAO format. I think the Pulse course I was looking at was two years, and you came out with a level 6 or 7 or something. Can't remember now but I don't think it qualified for free fees either. Actually, a reference or something to the courses available in the country (both specialist and otherwise) would probably be helpful to this thread.
So from the limited knowledge I remember from looking up courses, there are courses in:
Pulse
Temple Bar Music Centre
There's a Digital Media course in DCU (dunno if that counts)
There's a Music Technology (think that's what it's called) course in Maynooth.
There's the ball rolling anyways.

DamagedTrax

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Replace "after the first year" with "after the first month" I found, which was ridiculous when you consider the price of these courses.

true. the first year p/time in pulse has about 35.. in the 2nd year p/time theres only about 12 of us (who attend regularly)

PaulBrewer

TheAmateur wrote: »

the pure audio engineering courses didn't seem to be integrated too well with the CAO format.

What do you mean by this? Not having attended college I'm unaware of the CAO process.

TelePaul

This thread has really got me thinking. I'll have a BCOMM and an MBS by the time applications for these courses close. Alot of the grad. positions that were available to people like me a couple of years ago have vanished.

Do I really want to spend another year in college? Probably not. But what if it was Sound Engineering? What then? Damn it folks, you've got me sorely tempted!! What would one of these courses set me back, money-wise? And what would I need to do to be accepted?

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

I'll have a BCOMM and an MBS

What are they?

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What are they?

Degrees. Bachelor of Commerce (Level 8), Master of Business Studies (Level 9)

TheAmateur

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What do you mean by this? Not having attended college I'm unaware of the CAO process.

The jist of it is that before you do your leaving cert you fill out a form that lists up to 10 courses in order of preference that you would like to do (should you get the points). If you get the points for your first choice, you are offered that first etc. You fill out two of these lists: one for level 8 courses (Honours bachelor degree courses, usually 3/4 years) and one for level 7 courses (Ordinary bachelor degree). As far as I can remember, there wasn't a level 7 or level 8 course in audio engineering. You could try for something more general like the Digital Media course in DCU I mentioned, but it's not pure sound engineering. There's a site called qualifax.ie that's like a database for courses in Ireland. Try a few searches for audio engineering related courses. Here's one I did for level 7 courses with the search term "audio engineering": search

TelePaul

TheAmateur wrote: »

The jist of it is that before you do your leaving cert you fill out a form that lists up to 10 courses in order of preference that you would like to do (should you get the points). If you get the points for your first choice, you are offered that first etc. You fill out two of these lists: one for level 8 courses (Honours bachelor degree courses, usually 3/4 years) and one for level 7 courses (Ordinary bachelor degree). As far as I can remember, there wasn't a level 7 or level 8 course in audio engineering. You could try for something more general like the Digital Media course in DCU I mentioned, but it's not pure sound engineering. There's a site called qualifax.ie that's like a database for courses in Ireland. Try a few searches for audio engineering related courses. Here's one I did for level 7 courses with the search term "audio engineering": search

That's really weird, figured you could do a Level 7...so is it Level 6 stuff? Diplomas?

TheAmateur

TelePaul wrote: »

That's really weird, figured you could do a Level 7...so is it Level 6 stuff? Diplomas?

Far as I know... thing is, I think with Pulse etc. you are accredited by some organization or other. I'm guessing the idea is that this means more than the diploma or you get in the community. That's what I mean by not being CAO friendly though. Can't apply through it, can't avail of free fees neither.
Just looked at the website, the two year course gets you a "city and guilds" level 3 diploma. Dunno how that stacks with the National Framework of Qualifications...

PeakOutput

the problem in this country (and maybe others) is two fold

firstly the vast vast majority of worthwhile courses are private courses (ie not on the cao and cost upwards of 3/4k to do and if i was to consider any of these courses worthwhile which im not so sure about) because they are private courses they are business's out to make a profit.

secondly people/teenagers think you walk into one of these courses and out the other side after a year or two with a job as sound engineer this couldnt be further from the truth. you learn the basics and get some time in a studio sure after that your on your own

there are two course in university of limerick which are on the cao music media and performance technology and digital media design and they are the closest i have found to a sound engineering degree on the cao but they are new courses in their infancy and still changing everyday. the studios they have are excellent and new and most importantly FREE to book time in unlike at least one previous 'college' iv studied this subject in. also their lecturers are independantly successful (in general) in the areas they teach which does not appear to be the case in alot of these private colleges in my experience

imo, if you really want to become an engineer / producer you will beg borrow and steal every book / magazine on the subject you can find you will keep your 4K a year for gear and not for a year in college and you will record all your little brothers and sisters bands for free at the drop of a hat and if you do that for 3-10years you might find yourself talented enough and have demonstrated yourself dedicated enough to become a tape op in a good studio.

if you wana have an alright laugh in a small college with a a small group of people and learn a little about music/producing/engineering / performing then one of the courses might be for you

i wish i knew all this when i was 18

edit; unless something has changed pulse and stc are both city and guilds qualifications(1, 2 and maybe 3) on the theory side of things and then they give you their own piece of paper saying you have a cert/diploma from them

PaulBrewer

Seziertisch wrote: »

Example, the SAE in Germany requires students to do a 3-month Basic Media Cert before starting sound engineering or multimedia studies proper. To get this cert they are required to pass a multiple choice exam. (In the past at least) these questions included one that went along the lines of:

SAE was mentioned. Apparently a lot of their 'teachers' were SAE students.

Seziertisch

The SAE ... I did an introductory music production course there. Ignoring the content of the course the general management of the place was pretty shoddy.

DamagedTrax

if you finish your full course in pulse you come out with "city & guilds higher diploma - level 7" aswell as (and more importantly) protools 101, 110, 201 & 210M. they can also facilitate going further with protools courses.

as of september this year there is also a degree course being offered in pulse. AFAIK its still sound engineering but with a little more emphasis on the production side of things.

PeakOutput

DamagedTrax wrote: »

if you finish your full course in pulse you come out with "city & guilds higher diploma - level 7" aswell as (and more importantly) protools 101, 110, 201 & 210M. they can also facilitate going further with protools courses.

as of september this year there is also a degree course being offered in pulse. AFAIK its still sound engineering but with a little more emphasis on the production side of things.

accredited / recognised by who? you cant just say your teaching a degree and its true as far as i can tell they are not an official college of any kind i could be wrong though

DamagedTrax

PeakOutput wrote: »

accredited / recognised by who? you cant just say your teaching a degree and its true as far as i can tell they are not an official college of any kind i could be wrong though

of course they're an official college, they're the only digi school in ireland.. they're not CAO but that means piss all in sound engineering.

city & guilds are recognised internationally, FETAC is also but the protools exam are an internal industy thing set by digidesign (and have more relevance than city & guilds or fetac funnily enough).. as far as the degree goes i cant remember exactly who its accredited by, some english crowd but it is recognised.

our industry is funny in that recognised qualifications dont really mean sh1t. which is why IMO the protools exams are more important. if i was to walk into a studio tomorrow looking for an internship the city&guilds means nothing really (except showing an ability to learn and a baisc competance in the work involved) whereas getting to 210M (operator level) in protools is a distinct advantage as it means you can work on the industry standard software immediatly without training. i guess thats why digidesign set the pass level to 90%!!!

edit:

you can work on the industry standard software immediatly without training

i should stress that by this i mean purely the working your way around the software end of things.. obviously you're not going to get to dive head first into your own session just because you know protools like the back of your hand!!!!

Unregistered.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I was recently at a meeting with representatives from many European countries who work in Audio. Some engineers, some dealers,some studio owners, some manufacturers.

The conversation turned to Recording Education. Virtually everyone agreed that the quality of Education in their country was too low.

Most felt that the people 'graduating' weren't employable and that courses focused on the wrong elements.

What do the posters here think?

I know from my limited experience with Education is that there are certainly people teaching who , in my opinion, shouldn't be. Similarly there are some guys that are extremely talented in this area.

At the same time there are some courses about which I hear nothing but positives.

I've set a poll up which can be edited if better questions arise.

You never explained what you mean by "audio education"

PaulBrewer

Unregistered. wrote: »

You never explained what you mean by "audio education"

The Teaching of Audio as it relates to Recording, I suppose. Learning how to be a sound engineer. The rest of the posters have picked up the right idea I think.

PeakOutput

DamagedTrax wrote: »

of course they're an official college, they're the only digi school in ireland.. they're not CAO but that means piss all in sound engineering.

cao is just a system for getting people into college in ireland they dont decide what makes a college and what dosnt. being the only digi school in ireland means **** all too if i had the money i could meet the requirements from digidesign and hire someone who has their qualifications and away i go with the second new and improved digi school in ireland and if i market it right i could charge even more

city & guilds are recognised internationally, FETAC is also but the protools exam are an internal industy thing set by digidesign

im well aware of all these things so so far you ahve explained how pulse teaches other organisations courses and is allowed issue qualifications in their name thats fine i understand that but if they are all of a sudden offering a 'degree' in sound engineeing then it has to be accredited by an actual college / university as pulse is not a college or a university


the reason im making this point is because i dont like when companies like these(out to make profit bascially) bandy around these words that have alot of meaning. so while a school leaver sees oh look i can get a degree and be a sound engineer because pulse says i can i just have to pay they dont have the experience to know that every degree is not the same quality wise if you understand. as in a degree from say university of limerick in sound engineeing(if it existed) would automatically have a much higher reputation than a degree from pulse underwritten by some local college in liverpool or were ever and there is good reason for that

our industry is funny in that recognised qualifications dont really mean sh1t.

agreed but i think these private courses do alot to make people think the exact opposite which is a major problem. having the protools exams is great but you dont have to go to a college to do them its been a few years since i did mine but im pretty sure you can just do them online yourself if you wanted to but did the college tell me that before i handed over the money? i think not


so basically the entire point from my boring ramble is relying on private colleges for education in any one field with no 'competition' from the established 3rd level system is a terrible idea. some of the unis in ireland have amazing equipment and set ups but up until now they seem to have been available to post grads only it looks like that is starting to change for example i spent 5 hours today mixing on command 24 and it cost me precisely zip to book the studio for that amount of time. imo if there are not going to be some sort of official fas like apprenticeships in working recording studios then the unis need to pick up the slack in this field

TheAmateur

+1 to the above. I'd love to see a university or college course in sound engineering. I'm still really interested in it and I might have jumped that way if there had been a proper level 7 or 8 course there. I mean, it's definitely not as if there's not enough material in the field for intensive study anyway... for example, I still have this page bookmarked...

DamagedTrax

cao is just a system for getting people into college in ireland they dont decide what makes a college and what dosnt. being the only digi school in ireland means **** all too if i had the money i could meet the requirements from digidesign and hire someone who has their qualifications and away i go with the second new and improved digi school in ireland and if i market it right i could charge even more

so whats your point?

if they are all of a sudden offering a 'degree' in sound engineeing then it has to be accredited by an actual college / university as pulse is not a college or a university

ive already said its recognised.. i just cant remember where from

but im pretty sure you can just do them online yourself if you wanted to but did the college tell me that before i handed over the money?

actually pulse fees include all the protools exams up to and including 210M and they make it perfectly clear that you can do a certain amount yourself.

companies like these(out to make profit bascially) bandy around these words that have alot of meaning. so while a school leaver sees oh look i can get a degree and be a sound engineer because pulse says i can i just have to pay they dont have the experience to know that every degree is not the same quality wise if you understand

the same quality as what exactly? theres no one else offering a degree in sound engineering and pulse have always been very clear in stating how little a qualification means.. but the fact is that they offer hands on experience and have a very high reputation for turning out very good engineers.. you only have to look at their past pupils to realise that.

yes they are a business but their heart is 100% in what they do. tony perry (and all) are unbeliavbly commited to the training aspect of things

i spent 5 hours today mixing on command 24 and it cost me precisely zip to book the studio for that amount of time

so you spent 5 hours mixing with a large midi controller? i do that at home every day.


i do agree with your point about universities needing to take up the slack. my college fees are a huge burden, but do you expect the private colleges to teach us for free just because the government dont?

studiorat

To qualify to deliver the Digi course you need to have the latest versions of the Digidesign gear and a dedicated teaching area. Apart from that not much else really, maybe a weekend training course.

Same with City and Guilds really, fill in the quality assurance documentation pay yer €900 and off you go. Personally I would do both if I had the time.

In a conversation about courses today someone mentioned the price of the exams in some colleges. What struck me as odd apart from the cost of the courses which I think is outrageous. Was that Pulse were looking for in the region of €600 to do the exams. Now I know that to sit the City and Guilds is in the region of €270 last time I heard.

Anyone shed some light on this?

PaulBrewer

PeakOutput wrote: »

the reason im making this point is because i dont like when companies like these(out to make profit bascially) bandy around these words that have alot of meaning. so while a school leaver sees oh look i can get a degree and be a sound engineer because pulse says i can i just have to pay they dont have the experience to know that every degree is not the same quality wise if you understand. as in a degree from say university of limerick in sound engineeing(if it existed) would automatically have a much higher reputation than a degree from pulse underwritten by some local college in liverpool or were ever and there is good reason for that

That's a good point. In fact the absence of any industry agreed standards in education is a big part of the problem. There seems to be a whole mountain of difference between what the industry requires (the amount of available jobs notwithstanding) and what education seems to offer.

Another point is whilst something 'concrete' like ProTools Education is easily measured, when you 'know' protools (or similar) you're not a sound engineer, you're a computer operator.

studiorat

The only people who've ever asked me about educational qualifications were other colleges. If you want to teach sound engineering a qualification is useful, apart from that, no one really cares.

DamagedTrax

To qualify to deliver the Digi course you need to have the latest versions of the Digidesign gear and a dedicated teaching area. Apart from that not much else really, maybe a weekend training course.

not up to operator level though

In a conversation about courses today someone mentioned the price of the exams in some colleges. What struck me as odd apart from the cost of the courses which I think is outrageous. Was that Pulse were looking for in the region of €600 to do the exams. Now I know that to sit the City and Guilds is in the region of €270 last time I heard.

Anyone shed some light on this?

definitly wasnt pulse. our exam fees are included in our course fees.

PeakOutput

DamagedTrax wrote: »

so whats your point?

that being a digi school means sfa accept that you have paid alot of money to digidesign

ive already said its recognised.. i just cant remember where from

were a degree is recognisde is pretty important dont you think? would you prefer a degree from harvard or mit or from cork institute of technology? i accept that this particular industry dosnt need qualifications but then why offer a degree at all? i would argue its to earn more profit

actually pulse fees include all the protools exams up to and including 210M and they make it perfectly clear that you can do a certain amount yourself.

my point was clear. you dont need pulse or any other college to do those exams weather or not they conveniently add on the exam fees to their price is irrelevant

so you spent 5 hours mixing with a large midi controller? i do that at home every day.

either using top quality professional equipment is important or its not which side are you arguing?

i do agree with your point about universities needing to take up the slack. my college fees are a huge burden, but do you expect the private colleges to teach us for free just because the government dont?

absolutely not i dont think there should be the need for the colleges in the first place if i could id set one up and make a mint too

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Another point is whilst something 'concrete' like ProTools Education is easily measured, when you 'know' protools (or similar) you're not a sound engineer, you're a computer operator.

true, but when you combine it with an education and experience then you're a sound engineer.

take two engineers, both equally good and experienced except only one has protools exams.. withstanding personalities or "who they know" who's in the better position to get a job?

Seziertisch

You're only ever as good as the people you are recording and can only push it as far as the people who you are working with are willing to take it. Find some people with great songs to record or write some great songs yourself, get an arrangement going and then go and nail the whole lot to the floor.

Also, there is so much great info available online (a lot of ****e as well, of course) from gear to technique to philosophy so get reading.

A couple of well recorded songs are more telling of your ability than a bit of paper (though sometimes a bit of paper is needed to open some doors).

Also in terms of graduates from courses, when most people finish college (whatever they did) they are qualified for further training in a certain field rather than as anything in particular. The idea is that someone would have a solid grounding in the theory and basics of their subject, and be ready to apply it. So from that point of view these courses are doing their job (but if the standard is too low you end up with a load of muppets with a bit of paper ballsing up opportunities and closing doors for their betters)

Aridstarling

I'm in NUIM and its all a bit dire, but I've had this out before, I won't reiterate. I learn a lot more on my own messing about in the shed to be honest.

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

The only people who've ever asked me about educational qualifications were other colleges. If you want to teach sound engineering a qualification is useful, apart from that, no one really cares.

I agree ! That is the situation at the moment. But wouldn't it be useful to us all if education sorted the wheat from the chaff and presented that info as a qualification?

It's in Commercial Education Establishments interests that their students do well, not to mention the students themselves.

There has to be a finite number of lambs there and unless the industry is fed with talent what's left of it will die so it's in everyone's interest that education is rigorous and useful to the industry it serves.

PaulBrewer

Aridstarling wrote: »

I'm in NUIM and its all a bit dire, but I've had this out before, I won't reiterate. I learn a lot more on my own messing about in the shed to be honest.

Please do reiterate.

DamagedTrax

that being a digi school means sfa accept that you have paid alot of money to digidesign

and have the relevent qualifications to teach to others.. kinda exactly like every other private college. i fail to see why its a bad thing running a business in this way? they've paid, done their own exams and are now qualified to teach.. better than wasting your money on someone who's not recognised by digi.. ok they may be very good (as in studiorats case) but then they may be terrible, at least with a recognised college you have an assurance.

were a degree is recognisde is pretty important dont you think? would you prefer a degree from harvard or mit or from cork institute of technology?

last time im saying this, i cant remember where the degree is from, it doesnt affect me as i wont be doing it.. i could be from bloody princeton for all i know. if you're so interested have a look on their site.. im sure it will say it somewhere.

i accept that this particular industry dosnt need qualifications but then why offer a degree at all? i would argue its to earn more profit

yes, thats their jobs. whats the problem? should they not earn a living too?

my point was clear. you dont need pulse or any other college to do those exams weather or not they conveniently add on the exam fees to their price is irrelevant

no you dont but again ill make MY point. they are allowed to teach to a certain grade because they've gone thru the process and they get results.

either using top quality professional equipment is important or its not which side are you arguing?

what im saying is that i dont consider a control 24 to be anywhere near the quality of a good analogue desk. would you say im better off on my procontrol than an SSL, amek or neve?

absolutely not i dont think there should be the need for the colleges in the first place if i could id set one up and make a mint too

so in your opinion theres no need for a college that regularly turns out pro engineers within the industry. a college who's placement record is outstanding? get a grip, theres so few jobs available now that any kind of foot in the door is a godsend.. even if it costs a few grand a year its worth it for the experience with the gear, the contacts you make, the oppertunities that come your way.

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

true, but when you combine it with an education and experience then you're a sound engineer.

take two engineers, both equally good and experienced except only one has protools exams.. withstanding personalities or "who they know" who's in the better position to get a job?

I'm not saying PT education (and I'm not singling out PT, any DAW) isn't of worth.

I am saying that by itself it's of limited worth and can give a student a false sense of importance. I've seen this myself as have many of my acquaintances. I had this very conversation with a member of Pulse management recently.

It's actually akin to knowing Microsoft Office and should be treated with similar respect, but no more.

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I'm not saying PT education (and I'm not singling out PT, any DAW) isn't of worth.

I am saying that by itself it's of limited worth and can give a student a false sense of importance. I've seen this myself as have many of my acquaintances. I had this very conversation with a member of Pulse management recently.

It's actually akin to knowing Microsoft Office and should be treated with similar respect, but no more.

i know there are a lot of students who think its the be all and end all but part of getting somewhere is being clued up and realistic. anyone that goes to college and thinks they're getting a job at the end, without being aware of the current climate in the industry, is never gooing to get anywhere.

maybe a little more advanced than office i would think.. well more specialised anyway and certainly more indepth

Mars Bar

If I was told tomorrow that I can tag along with some band or some sound engineer, making tea and looking at what they were doing. I'd be outta college like a shot. I'd probably learn a lot more, a lot quicker.

I understand that I could be searching for a job for ages afterwards, but I couldn't imagine doing anything else. It's either this or nothing. I'm not blind, I'm just biding my time in college.

Aridstarling

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Please do reiterate.

I will. And I will try to stop this from becoming a rant, keep it informative.

Basicaly, I'm doing the Music Technology course in Maynooth. I sat no entrance test for the course, one does not exist. I also have a very humble set-up in my shed at home that I have been building up since I was about 14 (I'm now 18). Interface, few budget mics, DIY acoustic treatment, instruments, etc, etc.

The course in Maynooth, for first year at least, consists of a foundational theory class (2 hours a week) and a foundational computer music class (2 hours a week) for first semester, thats September through December. Then from February through to the end of April there two hours of basic synthesis and two hours of acoustics of music. That is it. Notice I use the words foundational/basic quite a bit there, and I do really mean it. Anyone who buys a few magazines, downloads a few trial versions of software and messes around a little would probably have a similar amount of "education" as we've been given in first year. That said, some people struggle with it. I don't understand why anyone would do Music Technology if they don't know what MIDI does or what a sequencer is...

The only interesting part of the course so far has been the acoustics of music, mainly because it is much more detailed, faster, and more specialised than any other module. Its information you couldn't really just, "pick up" from a few articles, its the proper in-depth education I'd expect really. It is the only lecture I go to for Music Tech these days, I gave up on the synthesis module weeks ago because I was so sick of watching a lecturer play with his favourite toys as opposed to actually teaching some thing. I will say I'd love to get paid to play with the latest Prophet 2008 module for two hours...

I have yet to see the inside of the studio in Maynooth this year, haven't been in there since the open day in November 2007. We have yet to come across Pro Tools on the course. Or indeed, audio of any kind really. Nothing has been recorded by anyone as part of the course. The only reason I ever go near the computer labs is to read (the quiet hum of 40 desktops is quite soothing). We were given a brief glimpse of the mac labs and stuff at the open day, I don't even know where they are now.

I guess the defining feeling I get from the course is that I'm wasting my time and money. If it weren't for the fact that I'll get a BA in English out of this too, I'd be out of there already.

Tomorrow I'm recording a few songs with my little brother's new band, I should have some pretty high quality mixes be Sunday evening at the latest. None of what I'll do tomorrow was learned on the music technology course. Thats surely a sign that something is wrong, right?

TelePaul

Aridstarling wrote: »

I will. And I will try to stop this from becoming a rant, keep it informative.

Basicaly, I'm doing the Music Technology course in Maynooth. I sat no entrance test for the course, one does not exist. I also have a very humble set-up in my shed at home that I have been building up since I was about 14 (I'm now 18). Interface, few budget mics, DIY acoustic treatment, instruments, etc, etc.

The course in Maynooth, for first year at least, consists of a foundational theory class (2 hours a week) and a foundational computer music class (2 hours a week) for first semester, thats September through December. Then from February through to the end of April there two hours of basic synthesis and two hours of acoustics of music. That is it. Notice I use the words foundational/basic quite a bit there, and I do really mean it. Anyone who buys a few magazines, downloads a few trial versions of software and messes around a little would probably have a similar amount of "education" as we've been given in first year. That said, some people struggle with it. I don't understand why anyone would do Music Technology if they don't know what MIDI does or what a sequencer is...

The only interesting part of the course so far has been the acoustics of music, mainly because it is much more detailed, faster, and more specialised than any other module. Its information you couldn't really just, "pick up" from a few articles, its the proper in-depth education I'd expect really. It is the only lecture I go to for Music Tech these days, I gave up on the synthesis module weeks ago because I was so sick of watching a lecturer play with his favourite toys as opposed to actually teaching some thing. I will say I'd love to get paid to play with the latest Prophet 2008 module for two hours...

I have yet to see the inside of the studio in Maynooth this year, haven't been in there since the open day in November 2007. We have yet to come across Pro Tools on the course. Or indeed, audio of any kind really. Nothing has been recorded by anyone as part of the course. The only reason I ever go near the computer labs is to read (the quiet hum of 40 desktops is quite soothing). We were given a brief glimpse of the mac labs and stuff at the open day, I don't even know where they are now.

I guess the defining feeling I get from the course is that I'm wasting my time and money. If it weren't for the fact that I'll get a BA in English out of this too, I'd be out of there already.

Tomorrow I'm recording a few songs with my little brother's new band, I should have some pretty high quality mixes be Sunday evening at the latest. None of what I'll do tomorrow was learned on the music technology course. Thats surely a sign that something is wrong, right?

You had four hours of lectures in the first semester? That's just **** dude.

Aridstarling

Yeah, four hours. And four hours in the second semester too. There was a one hour lab that I never really went to, I could do assignments on my laptop so there was no point.

DamagedTrax

something sounds very very wrong there dude. im on a part-time course and i have 3 hours of lectures and 3 hours of hands-on practicals a week as well as group (4 people) sessions every 3rd sunday amongst other things.

how much do you pay in maynooth (if you dont mind saying)?

Aridstarling

Well it was four hours a week you understand. Plus I do have English and Anthropology to keep me busy. I'll be dropping the Anthropology after first year though.

I don't really pay anything, I get a grant. Thats another reason I can't quit, I couldn't really afford to go anywhere else.