is fianna fail right for me

joe freethinker

I'm 16 and want to be involved in politics I'm liberal on personal freedom issues like same sex marrage and I was thinking about Labour but I'm very capitalist
I heard FF are going to sit with the european liberal party after the EU elections
Will this mean a shift to the left for FF
Is there a more suitable party for me?

nesf

Moved to the main Politics forum.

Essentially the PDs used to be the main socially liberal/economically liberal (i.e. capitalist) party. With their disappearance you are left with Labour if you're mainly a social liberal or FF/FG if you're mainly an economic liberal.

wilson10

Is Fianna Fail right for anyone?

lostexpectation

how about you vote for the candidate rather then the party

nesf

lostexpectation wrote: »

how about you vote for the candidate rather then the party

With our party whip system this is unfortunately less relevant (I wish this wasn't the case).

Het-Field

joe freethinker wrote: »

I'm 16 and want to be involved in politics I'm liberal on personal freedom issues like same sex marrage and I was thinking about Labour but I'm very capitalist
I heard FF are going to sit with the european liberal party after the EU elections
Will this mean a shift to the left for FF
Is there a more suitable party for me?

I would suggest remaining as an interested independent until the political establishment settles itself. Furthermore, it is not a good idea to jump into a party at the age of 16. Regardless of how mature you may feel, (an you clearly have reached a maturity given your interest in ideology rather than "mammy and daddy's party), you will be impressionable, and that can be used against your better judgement in the dog eat dog of party politics.

It is also advisable to give time to refine your views. Each person will reach their own politics after much soul searching. Like the economic market...it sorts itself out. In a party political environment, and youth wing, this could be stifled, and would prevent you from proper actualisation and realisation of your views. Remember, as a school pupil, you have never been given a chance at a liberal education. This will come once you reach third level status, and it is at that point that party politics should be entered.

Be very very cautious about how you approach this. FF's move to the European Liberal Democrat and Reform Party is opportunistic at best, and will result in the ELDR moving closer to a populist organisation, or FF wont last two years within its confines. Remember, Liam Aylward, and Brian Crowley have been reticent to form any alliance with the Liberals. Once the issue of Abortion, euthanasia, drug legalisation, immigration arise, they will baulk. The ELDR are right wing economically and left wing socially. This doesnt fit Fianna Fail, it was a perfect fit for the early views of the Progressive Democrats.

Lockstep

I joined Labour at 16 and never looked back.

Ultimately, it depends on your type of capitalism; it is perfectly possible to be a capitalist and in Labour as there are many social democrats in there. However, if by very capitalist you mean right wing then maybe Fine Gael would be the place to go. They are a generally right wing party with a left-leaning wing which could accomodate you.

Fianna Fáil are such a broad church, no matter what you're political views are, if they are not extremist you'd fit in fine.

Read a book, don't join a club.

gurramok

FF used to be left or left of centre in the general elections of 2002 and 2007. Alas, they've betrayed the traditional working class vote by becoming right wing PD style so they would be classified as right of centre.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

lostexpectation

green arn't left anymore

The_Minister

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I joined Labour at 16 and never looked back.

TBH, I've always been strongly against people joing parties at 14, 15, 16.
Most of the people who do never get to experience any other belief system, and tend to be indoctrinated into their particular party.

Most of the people I know who joined that young (normally because their parents were in the party; Fianna Fail and the Labour Party in particular), tend to be almost brainwashed - they can give you a few pre-prepared lines, or quotes from Eamon Gilmore or Brian Cowan, but the second you challenge their beliefs or prove them a nonsense, they go to pieces.

I'd advise anyone at the age of 16, who is thinking of joining a party, to wait.
Your political beliefs and your view of the world will change immesurably if you let them grow and mature as you learn more of the world; there is nothing to be gained by stunting yourself, by joining a side that will do its best to make you a loyal follower.

Dannyboy83

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Nicely post
IMO, despite varying political persuasions, nobody with any real chance of gaining power is prepared to rock the boat much.

And those who are prepared to rock the boat would rock it in the wrong direction and for all the wrong reasons - not that they would ever realistically gain power in this country anyway tho.

My plan for the moment, until a new real alternative appears, is to concentrate on keeping Fianna Fail out of power along with the scummies, and just rotate Labour and Fine Gael.

Cannot decide on who I would prefer between FG and Labour yet tho.

diverdriver

If you want to enter politics to work for your country and improve the lives of the Irish people and help ensure this country becomes a better place to live and work. Then Fianna Fail is not for you.

If on the other hand, you are interested in power for it's own sake, want to help your career and those of your pals, want to make lots of money with minimum effort, have fun flying around the country and the world at the taxpayers expense and retire early with a juicy pension. Then Fianna Fail is your only party. Fianna Fail, should really be called Sinn Fein because they only look after themselves.

Lockstep

The_Minister wrote: »

TBH, I've always been strongly against people joing parties at 14, 15, 16.
Most of the people who do never get to experience any other belief system, and tend to be indoctrinated into their particular party.

I'd disagree, I'd say one of the best ways to learn more about politics is to join a political party and you get a great insight into how Irish politics works. I'd say I only really started getting to know politcs properly when I really started getting involved with Labour when I was 18.

The_Minister wrote: »

Most of the people I know who joined that young (normally because their parents were in the party; Fianna Fail and the Labour Party in particular), tend to be almost brainwashed - they can give you a few pre-prepared lines, or quotes from Eamon Gilmore or Brian Cowan, but the second you challenge their beliefs or prove them a nonsense, they go to pieces.

Labour? Srsly?
Nearly everyone I know in Labour broke with family tradition (as was my case)
Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael I would agree with as there is still a strong emphasis on the history aspect.

The_Minister wrote: »

I'd advise anyone at the age of 16, who is thinking of joining a party, to wait.
Your political beliefs and your view of the world will change immesurably if you let them grow and mature as you learn more of the world; there is nothing to be gained by stunting yourself, by joining a side that will do its best to make you a loyal follower.

There is nothing stopping you from leaving a party, as has often happened with Labour members in my experience. I'd say 16 is as good a time to join as any, there isn't some magic correlation between being older and suddenly becoming more politically aware. If someone is very interested in a party and it's ideals then fair play to them for getting active that early.

ilkhanid

"The ELDR are right wing economically and left wing socially." Unlike FF who are left-wing economically....yeah, right. just as well Sean Fitzpatrick,the rest of the bankers and the developers never found that out as they might have got a fright. But I guess they were out dining the night Bertie announced he was a socialist.:D

eoinbn

Irish parties are mainly economical and sit on the fence on a lot of social issues.

The problem with FF is that they don't have an economical agenda. They are everything to everyone. They want high social welfare for the less well off, high wages but at the same time have been reducing taxes. In an effort to look after everyone they have looked after nobody- not even themselves given the latest polls.

Liam Byrne

OP - if you have morals, ethics and a sense of justice, then the answer's an obvious "no".

If you like to make excuses, abdicate responsibility for your actions (and inactions) and have people bail you out (or dig you out) then maybe.

jmayo

OP fianna fáil are all things to all men given the chance.
They are pro privatisation (ala Eircom), maybe privatisation (ala Aer Lingus) and anti privatisation ala Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus, ESB, Aer Lingus.
They are pro-technology advancement ala electronic voting and anti-technology ala electronic voting and broadband :rolleyes:
They have sometimes been staunchly socially conservative ala divorce and abortion referendums of the 80s and socially aware as in having a separated leader in 90s/00s.
They are pro market ala healthcare colocation yet pro public socialist ala increasing of the HSE public health system.

FF adopted PD ethos on taxation and free market and McCreevy was finance minister.
Of course Bertie had a road to Damascus moment in 2004, after local elections. The party were addressed by Fr Healy of Cori at Inchydoney Spa, the evil free marketer McCreevy was dispatched to Brussels and was replaced by the caring ex Angola (oops sorry Health) minister Brian Clowen.
Bertie had rediscovered his socialists roots.

The question you must ask is do you fit the Fianna Fáil ethos.
Are you laissez faire on ethics and morals of your party colleagues ?
Do you see no problem in your colleagues and representatives recieving wads of cash from developers and businessmen ?
Do you have no problem with people of low moral character being not only tolerated but actually rewarded ?
Do you believe that a party and it's ministers should not bear any responsibility for it's actions ?

If you can actually answer YES to the above, then I believe you should fit in quiet well and will probably rise through the ranks.
Hell we might be hearing of you as ministerial material in 20 years or so

And yes I am a cynical old git

The_Minister

jmayo wrote: »

FF adopted PD ethos on taxation and free market and McCreevy was finance minister.

So did everyone.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OP - if you have morals, ethics and a sense of justice, then the answer's an obvious "no".

Grow up. Seriously.

The vast majority of people in Fianna Fail believe in the party, and believe it does the right thing, and stands for the right thing. 99.9% of the Fianna Fail party is completely clean, and the average Fianna Failer is in no way corrupt.

They were in power the longest (so they were worth bribing), and they had by far the greater number of representatives, so yes, they had corruption. But the average FF'er that I know and have talked to hates what Haughey did (except for his work for the elderly), and are bitterly disappointed in Bertie.

Dannyboy83

The question you must ask yourself is:

if you saw a poor decrepid old sod, dying on the side of the road, would you:

A) Help the man, feed the man
Help the man to help himself and feed himself
C) Check his pockets for cash


If you picked C......................

Het-Field

ilkhanid wrote: »

"The ELDR are right wing economically and left wing socially." Unlike FF who are left-wing economically....yeah, right. just as well Sean Fitzpatrick,the rest of the bankers and the developers never found that out as they might have got a fright. But I guess they were out dining the night Bertie announced he was a socialist.:D

Bankers and builders have nothing to do with sensible free market economics. This was cronyism masked as economic policy. While we are enduring a global economic crisis, it has been exacerbated in our small island economy by these unsustainable factors. Cowen was considered to be far more left leaning then McCreevy. CIE and the ESB remain assets of the state, and there is still a 15% stake in Aer Lingus. Rising VAT and rising tax would also suggest a less than liberal economic model in Fianna Fail. The party of Government are not as economically liberal as one would like to think

jmayo

The_Minister wrote: »

So did everyone.

Grow up. Seriously.

The vast majority of people in Fianna Fail believe in the party, and believe it does the right thing, and stands for the right thing. 99.9% of the Fianna Fail party is completely clean, and the average Fianna Failer is in no way corrupt.

They were in power the longest (so they were worth bribing), and they had by far the greater number of representatives, so yes, they had corruption. But the average FF'er that I know and have talked to hates what Haughey did (except for his work for the elderly), and are bitterly disappointed in Bertie.

So have you joined FF now that the PDs are defunct ?

The average member may not be corrupt, but they have turned a blind eye to corruption, unethical behaviour, wastage of public money, lack of responsibility and they thus condone it all.
By not making a stand against haughey's corruption they gave the green light for all that was to follow.

Wasn't it Burke (Edmund not jailbird Ray) that was supposed to have said ... "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing".
The same words could be changed slightly to apply to FF members, many whom I know and work with, who were readily making every excuse under the sun for huaghey, lawlor, burke, bertie and his wads of cash, Flynn snr and jnr, fahy, etc etc.

What am I saying it's not alone ff members, nearly half the electorate of Ireland stand idly by and do nothing, that is why we are in the mess we are in. :mad:

Liam Byrne

The_Minister wrote: »

Grow up. Seriously.

I voice my perfectly-valid opinon and you tell me to grow up ? Brilliant discusion there, especially coming from a moderator! :rolleyes:

The_Minister wrote: »

The vast majority of people in Fianna Fail believe in the party, and believe it does the right thing, and stands for the right thing. 99.9% of the Fianna Fail party is completely clean, and the average Fianna Failer is in no way corrupt.

AT ABSOLUTELY NO STAGE did I say that the average Fianna Failer was corrupt, so quit with the twisting of what I said. Since when does acknowledging that "they f**ked up, big-time", and that they're completely out of touch, and that they don't take responsibility for their actions equate to suggesting that they are ALL corrupt ? :rolleyes:

The average Fianna Failer might not be - and probably is not - corrupt, however anyone who "believe in the party and believe it does the right thing, and stands for the right thing, is delusional.

IF Fianna Fail members came down hard on their corrupt members*, AND ALSO kicked out their incompetent idiots, those who don't do their jobs, don't read critical reports, waste our cash on ego projects, etc, then there'd be no problem.

* And of course, having kicked some of them out for corruption, NOT welcoming them back in with open arms in order to stay in power would be a help too.....

But they don't. And they're then judged by that. And rightly so.

And the members who don't take a stand and force those decisions to be taken are - at best - facilitating incompetency. So while they're not directly involved, they don't particularly come out smelling of roses either.

Did enough of those "average members" complain when Bertie told economists to "f**k off and commit suicide" for warning what was to come ? Did any of them suggest that FF use their shareholding to protect Shannon ? Did any of them suggest any ways to prevent the wasting of money (including changing to vouched expenses) or suggest that Ireland's politicians NOT be paid more than Obama ?

Did any of them object when 200,000 was spent DOING UP AN EXISTING OFFICE for the person that you admit yourself you are bitterly disappointed in ?

Did any of them object to the fact that the ridiculous housing market was a massive factor in the requirement for a high minimum wage, thereby making Ireland uncompetitive ?

Did any of them castigate FF for the dimissive "shop around" response to rising prices ?

Did any of them object when the contract for the new FF website was given to an American company ?

If they didn't, they are as much to blame. And if we assume they did and they were ignored, why did they then stay in the party ? How can they "believe in" a party that ignores them ?

So less of the personal "grow up" crap or implying that the only issue is corruption - the bigger issues are incompetency and an unwillingness to be held accountable; discuss those, if you want to and are capable of having a "grown up" conversation.....

joe freethinker

BIG thank you to all who made comments
its given me a lot to think about.
mentioning family ties my fathers side are FF while my mothers is FG
nether is commited themselves but if my 2 grandads met at my age they couldnt/wouldnt be friends because of their politics
as for me i'm planning a journey of political self-discovery and independant thinking

Lockstep

I wouldn't write off joining FF to be honest.

I know a lot of good people in Ogra Fianna Fáil who would have a fair amount in common with yourself politically.

Have a look around and see what's best for you. Or decide to abstain.

thebigcheese22

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I know a lot of good people in Ogra Fianna Fáil who would have a fair amount in common with yourself politically.

Meh. I remember asking an Ogra Fianna Failer in First Year at a society fair why i should join them when the government is such a disgrace, and he replied by saying 'Its more of a piss-up than a party'. In my dealings with them since, this attitude is common with all of them.

Lockstep

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Meh. I remember asking an Ogra Fianna Failer in First Year at a society fair why i should join them when the government is such a disgrace, and he replied by saying 'Its more of a piss-up than a party'. In my dealings with them since, this attitude is common with all of them.

I'd say that attitude prevails in most youth wings, especially in college. So few studnets want to be seen as political that many political societies have to try and balance appearing cool with getting stuff done.

I'm no fan of Fianna Fáil but I do some great people in it.

nesf

joe freethinker wrote: »

as for me i'm planning a journey of political self-discovery and independant thinking

My honest advice would be not to formally join a party yet. My political opinions changed a lot between the ages of 16 and 26. Take a look at political philosophy, read some of the seminal works of the thinkers on both sides of the divide and read about international not just national politics.

From your description of yourself I think you might enjoy the Economist as a newspaper. Much of what's in the hardcopy is available free online at their site. Read about European Politics, economics and other issues. Don't take the article's word for it but form your own opinions.

The Economist's bias is towards free trade and general liberalism, for clarity.

Dannyboy83

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I wouldn't write off joining FF to be honest.

I know a lot of good people in Ogra Fianna Fáil who would have a fair amount in common with yourself politically.

Have a look around and see what's best for you. Or decide to abstain.

I wouldn't write off them either *in a future sense*, but I think they should be put in the wilderness for a while until they sort themselves out in the present era.

ilkhanid

"The vast majority of people in Fianna Fail believe in the party, and believe it does the right thing, and stands for the right thing. 99.9% of the Fianna Fail party is completely clean, and the average Fianna Failer is in no way corrupt."

Given that in County Councils the length and breath of the country, the "ordinary, decent" FF County Councillor fell over himself, panting in his eagerness to rezone vast tracts of countryside at the behest of developers, I'd take that with a grain of salt. Then again... maybe there is no corruption , they are completely clean and just believe that every little town should have housing estates the size of Tallaght and that the greatest thing ever is the Great God "Development".I don't know which is worse
How often have we heard it. Demolish the old castle or the Georgian terrace: "it'll bring jobs!" "Cut down the oak forest:"it'll bring jobs!" Ram a motorway through an historic landcape:"It'll bring jobs"! Give the illegal quarry retrosopective planning permission:"It'll bring jobs!" Pollute the lake with eutrophication from the pig farm:"it'll bring jobs!" Increase a tiny village 100% with ugly,car-dependent housing estates:"it'll bring jobs!" Wreck the sand-dunes for yet another golf-club:"It'll bring jobs! And on and on and on and on...I know all political parties were in on it, but FF personified that "to hell with the 'oul snails" attitude more than the rest.
as a friend of mine retorted when berated with the "It'll bring jobs line": "Yeah, so did Auschwitz"

ukraine_orange

I know how the OP feels. I'm 18 and liberal, but I can't align myself to a particular party.

Perhaps I should just move to Norway or something.

jmayo

ukraine_orange wrote: »

I know how the OP feels. I'm 18 and liberal, but I can't align myself to a particular party.

Perhaps I should just move to Norway or something.

if you are liberl in the eocnomic sense then you better stay the hell away from Scandanavian countries.
They would be based on a socialist model where state takes high taxes, but gives very good services in return.
Note I say very good services in return

Of course some in ireland would like to model our country on them.
The only scary thing with this is we would get the taking high taxes bit right, but we would the other side of the equation ar**ways in the extreme :rolleyes:

nesf

jmayo wrote: »

if you are liberl in the eocnomic sense then you better stay the hell away from Scandanavian countries.

I assume he's using liberal in the American sense. Bloody Americans and their misuse of common political terms.

jmayo wrote: »

They would be based on a socialist model where state takes high taxes, but gives very good services in return.

The Scandinavian model has the whole cradle to grave approach to social welfare. It works fine so long as you've enough young workers paying tax. There's going to have to be some major reworking of the system over the next two decades.

ukraine_orange

I was talking about political liberalism. I support pro-choice, same-sex marriage (and adoption regardless of sexual orientation) etc.

My opinion on economics isn't well formed, so I'm not sure where I stand. I quite like Scandinavia's economics because they do it right and services throughout those countries (not just urban areas) are top notch/very good.

Bringing it in here though would be a disaster, IMO.

Disease Ridden

I have to say, I wonder is there a such thing these days as a teenager who isnt liberal in the political sense!!

nesf

Disease Ridden wrote: »

I have to say, I wonder is there a such thing these days as a teenager who isnt liberal in the political sense!!

I've met a couple, they're a strange sort..

Though I've seen the point that a younger generation isn't less bigoted than their parents, they're just bigots about different issues.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I've met a surprising amount. They are definetely out there but political teens are rare enough.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

The Scandinavian model has the whole cradle to grave approach to social welfare. It works fine so long as you've enough young workers paying tax. There's going to have to be some major reworking of the system over the next two decades.

But not if they import migrants from EE, right?

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

But not if they import migrants from EE, right?

Hah, yeah that's a good way to fix structural problems in your welfare system.

elshambo

joe freethinker wrote: »

I'm 16 and want to be involved in politics I'm liberal on personal freedom issues like same sex marrage and I was thinking about Labour but I'm very capitalist
I heard FF are going to sit with the european liberal party after the EU elections
Will this mean a shift to the left for FF
Is there a more suitable party for me?

Your getting into politics for the wrong reason if you have to ask if a party is suitable for you on a forum! imo

Then again most politicians 'nowadays' are in it for the wrong reason
so i look forward to shouting abuse at you in the future when your FF boss and have the typical FF boss "im clueless, have no particular views, but sur haaa sur what;) yerself" look on your face!:eek:

ooh ya as far as being a politician:
Anyone who isnt a socialist in there teans
has no heart
Anyone who isnt a capitalist in there 30's
has no head

Lockstep

elshambo wrote: »

Your getting into politics for the wrong reason if you have to ask if a party is suitable for you on a forum! imo

I'd disagree with you here. When starting out in politics it's always a good idea to scout around and look at which party you broadly fit into and work from there, you'll get a much better insight into other parties from within one if you've half a brain.


Noone always toes the party line (my liberal views on free speech and things like prostitution clash with most of Labour Youth) but you can usually find a party which will accomodate you well enough. Although keep in mind chances are ideologies which have no real party in Ireland like fascism or libertarianism.

walrusgumble

The_Minister wrote: »

TBH, I've always been strongly against people joing parties at 14, 15, 16.
Most of the people who do never get to experience any other belief system, and tend to be indoctrinated into their particular party.

Most of the people I know who joined that young (normally because their parents were in the party; Fianna Fail and the Labour Party in particular), tend to be almost brainwashed - they can give you a few pre-prepared lines, or quotes from Eamon Gilmore or Brian Cowan, but the second you challenge their beliefs or prove them a nonsense, they go to pieces.

I'd advise anyone at the age of 16, who is thinking of joining a party, to wait.
Your political beliefs and your view of the world will change immesurably if you let them grow and mature as you learn more of the world; there is nothing to be gained by stunting yourself, by joining a side that will do its best to make you a loyal follower.

no doubt, as you get older, your ideals change. maybe you get more converstative when ya get older or more liberal? it depends as many said above.


you may wish to become active too in the future. so dont get bogged down with one party. at this point in life, you might even start jumping ship for various reasons. last thing you would want is your creditibilty to go in tatters when, it is found/remembered what parties you had association with in your past. while one is entitled to change membership etc, one may have hassle trying to get their point across, when in debates as often seen in many mediums, irrelevant issues are used against you.

when you read profies of local politicans and see one or two have being a member of different and sometimes varied political parties than pete doherty had hot dinners, could one (unless they tell you what they have, had and still stand for, bearing in mind reality of the powers of local government) actaully take them serious?

Tech3

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Where would the policies of the socalist party differ to the policies of the Labour party? I would be more left wing on economic issues but a little conservative on social issues?

Lockstep

tech2 wrote: »

Where would the policies of the socalist party differ to the policies of the Labour party? I would be more left wing on economic issues but a little conservative on social issues?

Socialists advocate a dramatic shift to socialism.

Labour follows more of a social democratic bent, essentially using capitalism to fund the welfare state and regulating the economy.

turgon

Tech2, have you done the www.politicalcompass.org test? It gives comparisons then to what major Irish parties you might be aligned to.

Tech3

turgon wrote: »

Tech2, have you done the www.politicalcompass.org test? It gives comparisons then to what major Irish parties you might be aligned to.

yep, this is how I fared.

joe freethinker

Disease Ridden wrote: »

I have to say, I wonder is there a such thing these days as a teenager who isnt liberal in the political sense!!

I'm a teen and it's unbelieveable how consevative some of us are
Not me I'm liberal
I'm very impressed with the scandanavian model with the top notch services. High taxes would be fine if health and education were free(really free)

Het-Field

joe freethinker wrote: »

I'm a teen and it's unbelieveable how consevative some of us are
Not me I'm liberal
I'm very impressed with the scandanavian model with the top notch services. High taxes would be fine if health and education were free(really free)

Then your a left leaning social democrat. If you like Scandanavia, then you cant be a liberal. Economically anyway

Iwasfrozen

WoW, even I didn't think I was that left wing.

Look at these two charts, as you will see my Political Stance is no where near that of Labour, yet I support them, why I here you say ?
Looking at this chart I should be a Socilist member and yes I do have alot in common with the socilists but how would I ever get the chance to get my point across if I joined the Socilist party ?
Simply you will not find a party with the exact same ideals as you and often when it comes to politics you will simply have to swallow your pride and sttle with a party that you don't always agree with you on ever matter.