Voy or Ent, which is worse

nyarlothothep

Ent was consistently bad, had the Quantum Leap guy as captain, featured forgettable characters, made no sense and introduced the lamentable xindi story arc

Voy was also consistently bad, had Neelix, featured slightly less forgettable characters, ruined the threat of the Borg and had Threshold as an episode.

I'd be leaning somewhat towards Voy as the worst of the two from a position of ignorance insofar as I've only ever watched Ent casually, so I may be unaware of any travesties it committed on the scale of Threshold. Threshold was awful for the fact that it mangled the mega arc of humanity's evolution to Q like status by reducing Paris and Janeway to Newts. In later episodes the Borg were p1ssed on.

_Kaiser_

Enterprise - definitely!
The only watchable episode in the entire series (imho) was the 2-part "In a Mirror, Darkly" which actually worked partly BECAUSE the characters were complete opposites (and therefore more interesting!)

Voyager had a lot of good episodes I thought. Despite the slating they get here, I liked most of the Borg episodes (the 2-parter with the Hansen's, even the finalé), the "Year of Hell" or "Message in a bottle" with the Prometheus to name a few.

Janeway never annoyed me to be honest.. and when you look at the first choice for the role (as someone linked to here a while back), I think we should all thank our lucky stars that Mulgrew got it in the end!

nyarlothothep

True, I think it was the way the Janeway character was scripted more than anything else.

Pride Fighter

Where is the DS9 option??

nyarlothothep

lol. DS9 was fairly decent though imo, well its better than Voy or Ent. Choosing between Voy and Ent is like choosing between sh1t sandwich and a giant douche respectively.

IvySlayer

DS9 was only good because of the war.

Seasons 1 and 2 were awful.

I liked Voyager. The Borg were overused and were easy to beat, and the finale was utter bullplop. Other than that, it was good. (even the writers of Threshold said Threshold was awful and they asked fans to simply ignore it)

nyarlothothep

Voy also had that klingon episode near the end of its run. I remember thinking, "why did I just waste 1 hour of my life watching this."

Nodin

Voyager - for Janeway, Neelix and the annoying one who used hang around him, for complete failure to even attempt to develop the characters, for crap stories, for the poxy Kazon.....dire bilge, the lot of it.

nyarlothothep

Another thing I forgot to mention about Voy was the overuse of epic music. Sometimes episodes would just sound like orchestral music videos. Very intrusive and counterproductive to the drama. When you use epic, "hey we're going to do this!" music all the time the effect wears off very quickly.

Rawr

Dang nyarlothothep!
That's one hell of a head-scratcher you present!

Which is worse? Right off, my instinct is to vote ENT, and so I did.
I would damn near say that they are equally bad, but Enterprise gets the vote. The reason is...although VOY turned out to be a horrible mistake...with ENT, they really should have known better.

I recon making mistakes is a lesser sin than taking the p*ss with your established audience in a vain attempt to get new viewers (such as removing 'Star Trek' from the title)

Rawr

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Voy also had that klingon episode near the end of its run. I remember thinking, "why did I just waste 1 hour of my life watching this."

*shudder* The token Klingon episode....

Generic Klingon Leader: "<Insert Generic Klingon banter> She carries the Ku'la'macht <Insert Generic Klingon banter> Honor! <Generic Klingon banter>"

Generic Klingon jerk: "No she doesn't <Insert Generic Klingon banter> Ku'la'macht <Insert Generic Klingon banter>"

Generic Klingon Leader: <Insert Generic Klingon banter> GRRRR!!!

Generic Kingon Jerk: "We fight! <Insert Generic Klingon banter> Ba'thleth!

Generic Klingon Leader: Ka'plagh! <Insert Generic Klingon banter> I beat you!....Ha!

nyarlothothep

I never noticed that. In which case Enterprise isn't star trek, which just leaves Voy as the worst series ever hehe. On the other hand this really pushes Enterprise up in the worst series ever stakes as they omitted Star Trek from the title, which is sacrilege. The only good thing about Ent were the female leads. And I say that because their characters were the only good ones in the whole show.

Rawr

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I never noticed that. In which case Enterprise isn't star trek, which just leaves Voy as the worst series ever hehe. On the other hand this really pushes Enterprise up in the worst series ever stakes as they omitted Star Trek from the title, which is sacrilege. The only good thing about Ent were the female leads. And I say that because their characters were the only good ones in the whole show.

It seems that Berman and Co. tried to get fresh viewership initially, by only calling the series 'Enterprise' until they got through the second season. This appeared to be little more than a marketing ploy to get viewers who would normally ignore (or avoid) anything with the 'Star Trek' title.

When this didn't seem to work, and even fans were starting not to watch, they put 'Star Trek' back into the title, in what looks like an attempt to keep Trek's established audience watching. This change appears to have been retroactive, and applied to all episodes back to the first one. Thus you may not have noticed it.

Goodshape

Voyager was worse at times but it had it's occasional moments.

Enterprise was just a mistake. Gets my vote.

Johnny Storm

Rawr wrote: »

It seems that Berman and Co. tried to get fresh viewership initially, by only calling the series 'Enterprise' until they got through the second season. This appeared to be little more than a marketing ploy to get viewers who would normally ignore (or avoid) anything with the 'Star Trek' title.

When this didn't seem to work, and even fans were starting not to watch, they put 'Star Trek' back into the title, in what looks like an attempt to keep Trek's established audience watching. This change appears to have been retroactive, and applied to all episodes back to the first one. Thus you may not have noticed it.

In my tiny little mind "Enterprise" is non-canonical. I just wish they'd left "Star Trek" off the 4th season too.

chopperbyrne

Lets put it in perspective.

Voyager went seven seasons and for the most part I could happily watch it as some throwaway sci-fi entertainment.

Could you have sat through a further three seasons of Enterprise?

I know I couldn't.

Svalbard

IvySlayer wrote: »

DS9 was only good because of the war.

Well, it had more than the war, but the war did underpin seasons 3 to 7. I liked this, it gave the show a more 'epic' feeling, like other TV shows set at the time of an important moment in history....

Tries to think of examples............................................................

M*A*S*H...........?

Oh, you know what I mean!!!!

P.S. Voyager waaaayyyy better than ENT. ENT was uniformly dull. VOY had some good moments.

oneillMan999

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Lets put it in perspective.

Voyager went seven seasons and for the most part I could happily watch it as some throwaway sci-fi entertainment.

Could you have sat through a further three seasons of Enterprise?

I know I couldn't.

well said!!

enterprise just never felt like star trek, like they were travelling tru the galaxy in search of strange new worlds, at least voyager had that feeling now and again, it actually wasnt bad and i would also put voyager ahead of deep space nine which i didnt get at all....maybe im just old school :cool:

azezil

oneillMan999 wrote: »

well said!!

enterprise just never felt like star trek, like they were travelling tru the galaxy in search of strange new worlds, at least voyager had that feeling now and again, it actually wasnt bad and i would also put voyager ahead of deep space nine which i didnt get at all....maybe im just old school :cool:

But Voyager came after DS9 :P

Ent gets my vote. I did actually enjoy it towards the end of season 2 onwards, but it wasn't proper Star Trek.

oneillMan999

azezil wrote: »

But Voyager came after DS9 :P

Ent gets my vote. I did actually enjoy it towards the end of season 2 onwards, but it wasn't proper Star Trek.

I know, what i meant was voyager would be considered to be more like the original star trek series then DS9 was, hence its "old school" star trek.

azezil

oneillMan999 wrote: »

I know, what i meant was voyager would be considered to be more like the original star trek series then DS9 was, hence its "old school" star trek.

No no, in YOUR endo. *nods*

oneillMan999

whatever dude :rolleyes:

Anti

Rawr wrote: »

*shudder* The token Klingon episode....

Generic Klingon Leader: "<Insert Generic Klingon banter> She carries the Ku'la'macht <Insert Generic Klingon banter> Honor! <Generic Klingon banter>"

Generic Klingon jerk: "No she doesn't <Insert Generic Klingon banter> Ku'la'macht <Insert Generic Klingon banter>"

Generic Klingon Leader: <Insert Generic Klingon banter> GRRRR!!!

Generic Kingon Jerk: "We fight! <Insert Generic Klingon banter> Ba'thleth!

Generic Klingon Leader: Ka'plagh! <Insert Generic Klingon banter> I beat you!....Ha!

You missed out the bloodwine ! Do you know klingons at all

Badhbh

I like ST Voyager. Ok some of the characters should've been left out like Neelix and his sidekick.
I loved Janeway, and Tuvok. And especially Seven of Nine, brillant character.
I didn't like the way Chakotey often questioned Janeways authority, I don't think that was realistic. Even in todays military men don't questions women of higher rank without getting in trouble. Diffinity not in the distant future. Riker would never do that with Picard.

Some episodes were bad or boring especially the final one. But mostly it was good.

nyarlothothep

Chakotay was a maquis though originally and they were stranded in deep space, I think the protocol would lax just a bit. I distantly recall Riker sometimes disagreeing with Picard but he knew when to back down. Also Shelby challenged Rikers authority on several occasions, though she never got reprimanded. Data did however discipline Worf for questioning his command decisions in Gambit.

Amtmann

Badhbh wrote: »

And especially Seven of Nine, brillant character.

Are you for real?

Rawr

Furet wrote: »

Are you for real?

Some people feel that way I guess.
Can't stand her personally, nor can I stand the real premise for her creation, to keep the 12-year-old male demographic hooked.

biko

Janeway would probably humiliate Picard in a fight.

nyarlothothep

Bah, Janeway was a retard, all solutions to problems used magic or brute force. Picard wouldn't descend to fist fighting, he uses diplomacy and intelligence to win his battles.

Magic Eight Ball

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Chakotay was a maquis though originally and they were stranded in deep space, I think the protocol would lax just a bit. I distantly recall Riker sometimes disagreeing with Picard but he knew when to back down. Also Shelby challenged Rikers authority on several occasions, though she never got reprimanded. Data did however discipline Worf for questioning his command decisions in Gambit.

Let’s not forget Major Kiras and sisko’s rocky beginnings. :pac:

Honestly, Voyager wasn’t that bad, for all its flaws I enjoyed it for the most part.

Rawr

Trevor Coulahan wrote: »

Let’s not forget Major Kiras and sisko’s rocky beginnings. :pac:

I recon that's mostly because her character was a little one-dimensional in the beginning. I can imagine the creation process:

Berman: Ok, so it looks like Michelle Forbes won't play as Ensign Ro in this new series.
Pillar: God damn it! Now what are we gonna do? I don't like making new characters...it's hard work...
Berman: Well...why not just use the exact same character, but give her a different name?
Pillar: I like it.
Berman: And to save time, let's just give her one character trait.
Pillar: 'Pissed off b*tch'?
Berman: Perfect, let's break for lunch.
(Strange voice): aaaaaaaaaaaaarg!
Pillar: What the hell was that?
Berman: Huh? Oh, don't mind that. It's just Roddenberry's ghost. He goes nuts like that fairly often latley....
Pillar: Ah alright...

Svalbard

Rawr wrote: »

Some people feel that way I guess.
Can't stand her personally, nor can I stand the real premise for her creation, to keep the 12-year-old male demographic hooked.

Well a hot recovering-Borg is kind of of a cool concept, but of course they ruined it. From season 4 on the show could have been renamed Star Trek: The Adventures of Seven and Janeway. B'Elanna Torres was a much more interesting character IMO.
But you're right, she was created for one purpose only, similar to the frequent appearances of Enterprise crew in their underwear under sexy blue lights smearing goo all over each other.

Can't imagine Picard and Crusher doing that somehow.

When did ST resort to the lowest common denominator to get ratings? Very sad.

nyarlothothep

Agree there, Bleanna was one of the few characters on Voy that had depth. And was very much underused. It was the voice that Jeri Ryan used for Seven that really grated, made even worse by Janeways whiskey 700 packs a day tone. What was worse was that both characters were impulsive mentalists who never listened to anyone! The fact that every episode revolved around them just made Voy even worse than it was before. They destroyed any semblance of community that existed before, as I think the first three series were much more ensemble. This compromised the premise of people being marooned, working together to get home. T'Pol was way better in that milieu of busty catsuited aliens as she had cop on.

Svalbard

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Agree there, Bleanna was one of the few characters on Voy that had depth. And was very much underused. It was the voice that Jeri Ryan used for Seven that really grated, made even worse by Janeways whiskey 700 packs a day tone. What was worse was that both characters were impulsive mentalists who never listened to anyone! The fact that every episode revolved around them just made Voy even worse than it was before. They destroyed any semblance of community that existed before, as I think the first three series were much more ensemble. This compromised the premise of people being marooned, working together to get home. T'Pol was way better in that milieu of busty catsuited aliens as she had cop on.

True.

Enterprise could also be faulted for putting undue emphasis on 3 characters (Archer, T'Pol and Tucker) rather than the ensemble, but at least that was a decision made from the outset, not in voyager when they effectively gave up on certain characters when ratings were poor.
The Acher/T'Pol/Tucker dynamic had echoes of Kirk/Spock?McCoy and actually worked well enough. if only the other characters weren't so boring and forgettable. I mean, could you really see someone buying a Hoshi or Mayweather action figure, or dressing up as them at a convention?

nyarlothothep

Exactly, Ent was very much focused on those three but to its own detriment. The problem is that the iconic triad of TOS worked well because the characters were so...characterized and memorable, they hit upon magic there and the whole concept was new. Going back to basics is something which is really risky from an artistic standpoint imo because you face the danger of rethreading old ground.

How can it be as good as before when it was already done so perfectly for its time. And imo the time bit is important because what worked then could very well not work at all now. In any case creating new ideas and new methods is way better than just imitating the past for the cheap buck of nostalgia. Ent had some very good potential characters, Hoshi in particular. But they were relegated to the status of cardboard cut outs, and even moreso they weren't iconic cardboard cut outs like Scotty, Sulu or Chekov quotable one liners.

I like to think of it like this; Voy intentionally went about messing up Star Trek. Enterprise was the buffoon that unintentionally made major errors, distant though that may be from the truth.

norrie rugger

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Exactly, Ent was very much focused on those three but to its own detriment. The problem is that the iconic triad of TOS worked well because the characters were so...characterized and memorable, they hit upon magic there and the whole concept was new. Going back to basics is something which is really risky from an artistic standpoint imo because you face the danger of rethreading old ground.

How can it be as good as before when it was already done so perfectly for its time. And imo the time bit is important because what worked then could very well not work at all now. In any case creating new ideas and new methods is way better than just imitating the past for the cheap buck of nostalgia. Ent had some very good potential characters, Hoshi in particular. But they were relegated to the status of cardboard cut outs, and even moreso they weren't iconic cardboard cut outs like Scotty, Sulu or Chekov quotable one liners.

I like to think of it like this; Voy intentionally went about messing up Star Trek. Enterprise was the buffoon that unintentionally made major errors, distant though that may be from the truth.

I agree with you that Hoshi was the most underused character ever, in Trek.
The character had the potential to be a show stealer, based on her potential growth.
She was also really well played by Linda Park, bringing a frightened and innocent character to screen. Her downfall was how she was written/directed from very early episodes

nyarlothothep

Yar it was a shame, she played the part very well. Although now that you mention it, if you watch scifidebris' reviews of ENT he makes the salient point that of the two female characters in ENT, one was a sex object and the other was frightened/weak all the time, not exactly a fair portrayal of women in a sci fi show which is meant to be progressive.

Rawr

Svalbard wrote: »

True.

Enterprise could also be faulted for putting undue emphasis on 3 characters (Archer, T'Pol and Tucker) rather than the ensemble, but at least that was a decision made from the outset, not in voyager when they effectively gave up on certain characters when ratings were poor.
The Acher/T'Pol/Tucker dynamic had echoes of Kirk/Spock?McCoy and actually worked well enough. if only the other characters weren't so boring and forgettable. I mean, could you really see someone buying a Hoshi or Mayweather action figure, or dressing up as them at a convention?

Very true.
The Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic was legendary. It's an awful pity that Archer/T'Pol/Trip simply couldn't shape up to that.

Archer was Kirk-lite (very-lite), T'Pol was 'Chesty LaRou Spock'...who was less fun, and Trip....what the hell was he supposed to be anyway?! It's difficult to believe that that character could operate a light-switch, let own a fast moving space-ship!

nyarlothothep

I think they were destined to fail. You can't parallel the unparallelable Its like trying to do a remake of Robocop or Total Recall, it will fall by the wayside.

norrie rugger

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Yar it was a shame, she played the part very well. Although now that you mention it, if you watch scifidebris' reviews of ENT he makes the salient point that of the two female characters in ENT, one was a sex object and the other was frightened/weak all the time, not exactly a fair portrayal of women in a sci fi show which is meant to be progressive.

Well, that is what I meant regarding Hoshi. She was a reluctant addition to the crew but showed the potential to grow the most. I mean she is meant to have a black belt in Akido (mayweather was a possible kick ass character also).

They just decided to keep her as a weak person, instead of developing her

Rawr

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think they were destined to fail. You can't parallel the unparallelable Its like trying to do a remake of Robocop or Total Recall, it will fall by the wayside.

And sure enough, that's exactly what happened.
Robocop got a sequel trilogy a while back, made on the cheap. It was just plain horrid. It didn't even have any of the legendary Robocop score.

And Total Recall 'enjoyed' a very poor TV series.

nyarlothothep

Really? I didn't know about Total Recall, will have to youtube it. Robert Picardo was the taxi driver in the film, well the voice of the animatronic in his image. Apparently they're releasing a remake of robocop in 2010.

chopperbyrne

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Apparently they're releasing a remake of robocop in 2010.

I'll buy that for a dollar!

nyarlothothep

lol/groan :rolleyes: