The mains keeps tripping out ?

flynnboy

Hi

We have a small oven we use on the kitchen worktop. All of a sudden whenever it is switched on it trips out the mains to the house.

Does this indicate there is some kind of fault with the oven do you think? It is quite a new appliance.

Sleipnir

Yes. Possibly a short in the cable or loose connection in the plug or in the appliance. Have you tried it in another socket?

If know how to, check the connections in the plug and if all is good there, get the appliance serviced

steifanc

what exactly is tripping out on your board

hbr

flynnboy wrote: »

Hi

We have a small oven we use on the kitchen worktop. All of a sudden whenever it is switched on it trips out the mains to the house.

Does this indicate there is some kind of fault with the oven do you think? It is quite a new appliance.

What do you mean by tripping out? There are usually two separate
safety devices. Most modern installations have a circuit breaker which
trips when excessive current is drawn from the mains. Older installations
use a fuse for this purpose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_breaker

Check the maximum current requirements of your oven. If it is
plugged into a three pin 13A socket rather than a dedicated
cooker cable, it is likely to trip the MCB, especially if there are
other high current devices like a kettle or dishwasher on the
same circuit.


The other safety device is known by a variety of different names
like RCCB/RCD/ELCB. This trips if there is leakage to earth or
an imbalance between live/neutral current which would indicate
leakage to earth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

Frequent MCB trips are caused by excessive current. This could
cause overheating of the wiring and there is a small risk of fire.

RCD trips are a sign of insulation failure caused by a
faulty appliance or sometimes by water spills into the
appliance. Faulty wiring is another possibility.

Earth leakage faults are dangerous, especially in a kitchen
where there are a lot of earthed metal surfaces. If your RCD
is tripping, don't just keep resetting it. Find out the cause of
the problem.

Delta Kilo

flynnboy wrote: »

Hi

We have a small oven we use on the kitchen worktop. All of a sudden whenever it is switched on it trips out the mains to the house.

Does this indicate there is some kind of fault with the oven do you think? It is quite a new appliance.

Is it in an old house? My grandparents had one of these ovens fitted before and it kept doing the same thing. It was drawing too much current than was available in the house. They had to ring the ESB and they sorted it out but it took an age for them to call out.

Anything with a large heating element usually draws a motherload of current, an electric shower being another prime example (you may notice that the lights dim when you turn it on).

Try an electrician and see what he says and it will more than likely involve a visit from the ESB if it is an old house.

steifanc

hbr wrote: »

What do you mean by tripping out? There are usually two separate
safety devices. Most modern installations have a circuit breaker which
trips when excessive current is drawn from the mains. Older installations
use a fuse for this purpose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_breaker

exactly " what is tripping out " we can take it that the person that posted the question isnt from an electrical background , and in an effort to establish if were dealing with a earth fault or a current fault ,a discription from the poster of "what is tripping out" we can establish this and try and help them futher,
i would think if they knew the differance between a rcd,rcbo,and a mcb they wouldnt be posting the question in the first place !

Davy

flynnboy wrote: »

All of a sudden whenever it is switched on it trips out the mains to the house.

Does this indicate there is some kind of fault with the oven do you think? It is quite a new appliance.

Op do you mean your main breaker for the whole house, normally a 63amp fuse?

It should really be just your circuit fuse/mcb. Its most likely overcurrent on one circuit rather than a faulty appliance.

flynnboy

We have only been here since November but I do know enough to tell you that it is a modern system.

What I mean by 'tripping out' is this. We have a box outside of the house that houses the meter. In the box there is what I would call a trip switch and it is this which 'trips out' i.e. switches itself to the off position. This breaks the circuit for the whole house.

I have tried the appliance in question on the mains circuit for the main house - which is a separate circuit to the kitchen mains circuit, and the same thing happens i.e. the trip switch in the meter box switches off. I have tested all of the other appliances some of which are more powerful e.g. our much bigger cooker oven, and nothing else has the same effect of tripping the system off.

I have checked the plug and all is okay in there. What I'm trying to do is establish that it is the appliance before we take it back as it is fairly new and under guarantee. I don't want to look like an idiot when I take it back....

Thanks for all of your input.

flynnboy

Oh and just one ore thing.

We have had it for a couple of months with absolutely no problems until yesterday.

flynnboy

Oh and just one more thing.

We have had it for a couple of months with absolutely no problems until yesterday.

Davy

flynnboy wrote: »

We have only been here since November but I do know enough to tell you that it is a modern system.

What I mean by 'tripping out' is this. We have a box outside of the house that houses the meter. In the box there is what I would call a trip switch and it is this which 'trips out' i.e. switches itself to the off position. This breaks the circuit for the whole house.

I have tried the appliance in question on the mains circuit for the main house - which is a separate circuit to the kitchen mains circuit, and the same thing happens i.e. the trip switch in the meter box switches off. I have tested all of the other appliances some of which are more powerful e.g. our much bigger cooker oven, and nothing else has the same effect of tripping the system off.

I have checked the plug and all is okay in there. What I'm trying to do is establish that it is the appliance before we take it back as it is fairly new and under guarantee. I don't want to look like an idiot when I take it back....

Thanks for all of your input.

Because it doesn't trip with the cooker, that doesn't mean anything. The cooker is probably on its own mcb.

Turn off the all the other MCB's and only leave the one on so you can plug in the oven. If it trips out then, with everything else off it would seem like a faulty unit.

flynnboy

Davy wrote: »

Turn off the all the other MCB's and only leave the one on so you can plug in the oven.

Thanks Davy. You mean switch off all the circuit breakers in the mains fuse box except for the circuit for the socket used for this oven ?

Davy

flynnboy wrote: »

Thanks Davy. You mean switch off all the circuit breakers in the mains fuse box except for the circuit for the socket used for this oven ?

Yes. This will mean that the only thing on will be this oven. Then the main switch beside the meter should not be tripping, only the circuit fuse in your board should trip. You should check the rating of the oven, it should be on a label on it. The fact that its been ok since November does raise suspicions though.

flynnboy

I just turned off every switch on my mains board i.e. everything in the house, except for the circuit for the kitchen sockets. The same thing happened. Do you reckon it is the appliance? It would seem so.

Davy

flynnboy wrote: »

I just turned off every switch on my mains board i.e. everything in the house, except for the circuit for the kitchen sockets. The same thing happened. Do you reckon it is the appliance? It would seem so.

If its taking in this much current i would suspect so. Possible short in the unit itself.

davelerave

flynnboy wrote: »

I just turned off every switch on my mains board i.e. everything in the house, except for the circuit for the kitchen sockets. The same thing happened. Do you reckon it is the appliance? It would seem so.

what's this tripswitch in the meter box .whats the label on it say?

RoundyMooney

davelerave wrote: »

what's this tripswitch in the meter box .whats the label on it say?

+1

Something a little outside the norm here, I feel.

If you could take an image OP, that would be even better.

steifanc

so were back to the same question here " what exactly is it tripping on the board "
it is highly an overcurrent problem , seen as that according to iso standerds you can t fit a fuse bigger that 13a into a plug top, for obvious reasons, so following the laws of diversity , if it was current the plug top would blow first , and if it has only given problems recently we can take it that the correctly rated bracker is in the board or it would of given problems proir to this ,
turning all your trips off is fine if your trying to identify a circut with a problem , but we all ready know where the problem is ,

so my tuppence wort, imo and experience , i have found a common problem with ovens/toasters with crums and food parts falling around the element area , causing egnought contact to trip a rcd of 30 ma,
so try cleaning it , if that dont work bring it back if under warrenty ,

davelerave

could be a hook-up to a temp. supply at worst in the meter cabinet.need more info anyway.

flynnboy

Well, the kitchen socket circuit is separate to the main house socket circuit and the appliance has the same effect on both circuits and no other appliance causes the problem. So, I would say the appliance has developed a fault. I am taking it back tomorrow and when I get a replacement, or the dealer tells me otherwise, I shall surely know;)

I will let you know the outcome.

FBY

davelerave

this tripswitch is in the meter cabinet you say.get some info on this before you bring cooker back .it sounds unusual

RoundyMooney

It smacks to me like someone has hooked the house up to what may have been a temporary supply of some kind.

It is possible that there's no fault at all, and that excess load could be causing the tripping.

Like a lot of queries here-a lack of info makes it hard to diagnose.

Is it a new property/installation?
Is an electric shower present, and does it work ok?

flynnboy

The house is not on a temporary supply of any kind. As previously explained it is a modern system. The worktop oven has been working without a problem of any kind for over 2 months so I don't see why it should be any kind of problem with our general electrical system. We do not have an electric shower and nothing else is displaying any problem of any kind.

The one and only thing causing any kind of problem is this little oven all of a sudden. If there was any kind of a problem with our supply/system surely it would have shown up before now. It is too coincidental that the one and only thing tripping the system out is this little oven after more than 2 months of operation without problem of any kind, especially given the tests I have done.

I'm taking it back tomorrow. I don't see how it can be anything else.

davelerave

flynnboy wrote: »

The house is not on a temporary supply of any kind. As previously explained it is a modern system. The worktop oven has been working without a problem of any kind for over 2 months so I don't see why it should be any kind of problem with our general electrical system. We do not have an electric shower and nothing else is displaying any problem of any kind.

The one and only thing causing any kind of problem is this little oven all of a sudden. If there was any kind of a problem with our supply/system surely it would have shown up before now. It is too coincidental that the one and only thing tripping the system out is this little oven after more than 2 months of operation without problem of any kind, especially given the tests I have done.

I'm taking it back tomorrow. I don't see how it can be anything else.

there's no way of being definitive here with the limited info you're providing .

fishdog

there's no way of being definitive here with the limited info you're providing .

+ 1

But from reading your posts it sounds like:

1) A problem has developed recently with the appliance.
2) Your wiring is not normal.

I would suggest that you get a qualified electrician to look at it.

RoundyMooney

I would too.

I'd dearly love to know what's residing in that meter cabinet.

davelerave

my guess would be the house is hooked up through an rcd or an rcbo situated in the meter cabinet.no rcd in fusebox and the oven has developed an earth fault.could be well off the mark though!

flynnboy

'Limited Info' ?

I really don't see what other info' I can give you? I have explained everything I can.

I am really very grateful for all of your input but given the advice I have received from the forum and the tests I have done as a result, and also given the fact that there has never been any problem of any kind whatsoever until yesterday and given that it is uniquely a problem attached to this one appliance quite suddenly and after a couple of months of normal operation, how can it be anything other than a problem having developed with this appliance ? This can happen. If there was any kind of problem with our supply/system in general terms then I have no doubt it would have been symptomatic before now with our general usage. But as I have tried to make clear, we have never had any kind of problem before now and it is uniquely concerned with this one appliance.

As I said, I am taking it back tomorrow and so I will report back and let you know what happens as a result.

Thanks again, I do appreciate it.

cast_iron

flynnboy wrote: »

'Limited Info' ?

I really don't see what other info' I can give you? I have explained everything I can.

With regards to the apparently faulty machine, yes you have. And you are most likely correct that the appliance is indeed faulty.

However, on foot of what you said earlier regarding a switch tripping outside beside the meter box, numerous posters have asked for more info on this but you haven't been forthcoming. It may not be causing the problem in question, but it may pose a problem in itself.

Perhaps it's a simple case of people misunderstanding your claim, but taken as you described, this "switch" sounds highly irregular, and possibly hazardous.

So, more info please:)

flynnboy

Okay, this is absolutely the last piece of info' I can give - the CB is labeled

BD62

But c'mon, surely common sense has it here? We have had no problems whatsoever before now, we have used this appliance trouble free for a couple of months, no other appliance displays any kind of problem, I have switched off every CB on the consumer unit with the exception of the circuit for the kitchen sockets and it is still only that appliance that triggers the CB for the house. Also, if I plug it in to the socket circuit for the house, which is separate from the kitchen, it has the same effect. Why on Earth would this be anything other than a problem that has developed with this appliance?

It surely makes sense that if we have some kind of fundamental problem with our supply/system set up we would have known about it before now with other problems? Why suddenly should we have problems with this one particular appliance if it is some kind of other fundamental problem with our system ?

RoundyMooney

I'm going with Dave on this. The most likely culprit is an RCD (a type of breaker) in your meter cab that SHOULDN'T be there. That's why we're talking in terms of non standard installation etc.

That said, I'd imagine you also have what is most likely a faulty element or wiring in the oven itself, given that you have turned everything else off, and still get a trip.

Don't just replace the appliance, let the problem go away and do no more.

Even an image of both your cabinet and distribution board would give us some idea of what's been done, but failing that, no one can definitively say.

fishdog

Most/all of us here think you have 2 issues:
1) The appliance.
2) The wiring in your house does not seem to be normal. It may be unsafe.

As RoundyMooney said:

The most likely culprit is an RCD (a type of breaker) in your meter cab that SHOULDN'T be there

flynnboy:

Why on Earth would this be anything other than a problem that has developed with this appliance?

I think that this is one of your problems, as I said:

1) A problem has developed recently with the appliance.

This fault could be in the form of:

(a) Overload. For example, when an electrical heating element approaches the end of its life it sometimes it’s resistance reduces dramatically. This reduced resistance can cause excessive current to flow, causing the protective device (MCB, fuse, RCBO) to operate.

(b) A short circuit which could be between live & neutral or live & earth or neutral & earth.


I would be more concerned about is that your wiring does not seem normal.

Just because the appliance worked in the past does not mean that it was ever operating safely!

I would guess that the circuit is fine, but without testing it I cannot say so for sure. I would start with an insulation resistance test if was there. This requires special test equipment.
All we are doing here is making educated guesses. Although you are giving us as much information as possible we still do not know enough to give definitive answers and therefore are reluctant to say something that could be wrong and result in a serious accident. Bear in mind you untrained and dealing with a lethal voltage! You should really get a qualified electrician to look at it.

flynnboy

Now you guys have me worried:eek:

I have attached 3 pictures - 2 from the meter cabinet and 1 of the consumer unit.

The switch in question is the middle one in the picture labeled trip.jpg

It says on the switch: BD62 In=40A 2pol

So are you telling me that switch should not be there ? If not why not and why is it there?

fishdog

Ok, now we are getting places.

The 3rd picture shows a distribution board installed inside your meter cabinet.

So are you telling me that switch should not be there ?

Yes I am. All that should be there is the meter and the ESB main fuse unit that you can see below the board.

why not

It is against regulations would be one of several reasons.

why is it there?

Typically in the past a board such as this would be installed in that way to provide a temporary supply for builders etc so that the house could be built. It would seem that whoever wired the house simply connected the house to this temporary supply. I would have done this sort of thing in the past for a short period of time for test purposes when wiring the house. This should not have been left like this on a permanent basis.

Picture 2 shows a very dated consumer unit that appaers to have no RCD in it. Under current regulations (for many years now) it should contain an RCD to protect all of the sockets in the house. Also the consumer unit in the house has no main switch fuse in it which is not normal either.

It would seem that the RCD in the board in your meter cabinet is protecting the whole house (not normal) and I would guess that the main switch fuse (to the left of the RCD), is also protecting the house but this is not the way it should be done.

The whole house may draw more than 40 amps at times, which is beyond the rating of the RCD. This is not desirable either.

Does turning off the MCB to the right of the RCD have any effect?? It may be unused.

It says on the switch: BD62 In=40A 2pol

It is a 40A 2 pole RCD. When you press the black test button on the right it should operate. With this new information I would say that your problem is not a short circuit, but a fault between earth & neutral or live & earth within the appliance.

If the whole house goes out when this RCD is off it is feeding the whole house. This is not as it should be.

At a minimum you should get an electrician to:
1) Remove the board from the meter cabinet
2) Install a new consumer unit in the house in line with current regulations (this will then have an RCD just for the sockets and a main switch fuse).
3) Inspect the wiring in the house and report back to you his/her recommendations.
4) Check out the appliance!

flynnboy

Thanks a million fishdog.

That's all very depressing, sounds expensive:(

Typically in the past a board such as this would be installed in that way to provide a temporary supply for builders etc so that the house could be built.

This makes sense as the cabinet is on the side of the house that is an extension built about 10 years ago.

Will a new consumer unit come complete with all of the necessary fuses and breakers ?

My wife is away changing the appliance and so I should be able to say something about that later today. At least the thing developing a problem has highlighted the installation issue.

Thanks again for your detailed response :cool:

davelerave

surprsing you've not had any nuisance trips with the temp. supply hookup like that.you won't know exactly where you stand 'til after a complete inspection

fishdog

Will a new consumer unit come complete with all of the necessary fuses and breakers ?

A consumer unit can be bought and the MCBs can be added or removed as required to suit the needs of each installation.

sounds expensive

The good news is:
1) It will be cheaper now than a year or two ago!
2) It may be a blessing in disguise. A stitch in time.....

fishdog

you won't know exactly where you stand 'til after a complete inspection

+1

davelerave

the rcd not giving much bother is a good sign anyway(assuming its working 100%):) although having said that i can't quite tell if it's neutralized at the meter even(nothing at cut-out)

flynnboy

surprising you've not had any nuisance trips with the temp. supply hookup like that.

I have :rolleyes:...... Once or twice it has tripped inexplicably and before we bought the little oven. Why should it do that?

Does anyone have any idea at all of the kind of costs involved with what we've been talking about

davelerave

flynnboy wrote: »

I have :rolleyes:...... Once or twice it has tripped inexplicably and before we bought the little oven. Why should it do that?

Does anyone have any idea at all of the kind of costs involved with what we've been talking about

leakage current will cause a trip.(i can't tell from pics if the installation is neutralized,this will affect operation of rcd).impossible to guess cost of remedial work from here anyway.one more thing out of interest.are you still paying higher temporary rate for electricity?check the price per unit on your bill(i don't know if it defaults back to regular rate or not)

flynnboy

are you still paying higher temporary rate for electricity?(i don't know if it defaults back to regular rate or not)

Hmm, don't know about that. On my bill it says Tariff: Domestic Si guess not ?

davelerave

you're prob ok. just check the cost of your units

flynnboy

I have 2 costs for my units for some reason....
0.1597 euro: General Units
0.1640 euro: General units

Does that seem normal ? We only moved here to Ireland last November and so I am not yet quite familiar with things like the nuances of our bills.

Davy

flynnboy wrote: »

I have 2 costs for my units for some reason....
0.1597 euro: General Units
0.1640 euro: General units

Does that seem normal ? We only moved here to Ireland last November and so I am not yet quite familiar with things like the nuances of our bills.

Their was a price change in jan. That would explain that

flynnboy

Well I can now confirm that it was a faulty appliance. My wife has returned with a new oven exactly the same model and there is no problem.

But as a result we now have another problem, as you know.:(

Thanks for all of your advice and input with this.:D

Cheers

flynnboy

fishdog

No problem

flynnboy

:cool:

RoundyMooney

You could start with the latchyco who left the installation like that, if you can find them.

Best of luck.

flynnboy

That will have been the guy we bought the house off. I guess it would be a complete hiding to nothing trying to get him to do anything about it. Buyer beware....... my own fault. C'est la vie

RoundyMooney

Sure you can only act on the advice of your engineer.

You're not to blame here.