Guinness and Protestants...

MonicaBing

Hope i'm posting this in correct place, but, does anyone know apart from the obvious connection of Arthur Guinness' family being from Portadown, what are the Protestant connections with the Guinness brewery?

My fella's in Oz at the mo and is a pure nationalist but some mates of his told him that at one time, the brewery would not hire Catholic workers and there was all sorts of bigotry against the Catholic workers in favour of the Protestant workers?? There was some more rubbish but to be honest with you, i think they're taking the pish...

Have looked up Wiki etc and there's nothing akin to what he's talking about?

Sounds suspiciously like Conspiracy theory crap to me?

McArmalite

MonicaBing wrote: »

Hope i'm posting this in correct place, but, does anyone know apart from the obvious connection of Arthur Guinness' family being from Portadown, what are the Protestant connections with the Guinness brewery?

My fella's in Oz at the mo and is a pure nationalist but some mates of his told him that at one time, the brewery would not hire Catholic workers and there was all sorts of bigotry against the Catholic workers in favour of the Protestant workers?? There was some more rubbish but to be honest with you, i think they're taking the pish...

Have looked up Wiki etc and there's nothing akin to what he's talking about?

Sounds suspiciously like Conspiracy theory crap to me?

Well I don't like the use of Protestant or Catholic to classify peoples political loyalites, I prefer to use Nationalist and unionist as using religious titles only helps to misrepresent Irelands struggle for freedom. But anyway, it's a while ago but I remember Gay Byrne telling on TV, back in the 50's he got an office position in Guinness's. This according to him caused consternation among the already existing staff, as white collar jobs were almost exclusively held by Protestants in the firm.
I also remember listening to an old man's account of the 1916 rising on radio and him telling how he and many others were fired from their jobs in Guinness's because his brother had taken part in the rising !!!

MonicaBing

Oh ****e! Seriously? I was hoping to disprove the person who told my fella these stories!! And i apologise for the political terminology but it was the only way to get my post across with some accuracy..:(

blinding

I am pretty sure that I have heard about what McArmalite said about the white collar workers but am no expert on the subject.
I am sure that there will be some better informed posters out there on this subject.

It was the Catholic workers that made the Guinness taste so good;)

Noble Knight

Arthur Guniness was Anglo- Irish just like Lord Wellington (Former PM of Britain) and Bernard Shaw.

Jhazon

*! Spits up !* .....say what?

Noble Knight

Jhazon wrote: »

*! Spits up !* .....say what?

Oh dear Oh dear some people clearly don't like the fact that history is some what different from myth.

Indeed it is very truth that Arthur was Anglo Irish. Oh and one more thing his eldest son was a member of the Orange Order. I have seen the records from the Grand Lodge of Ireland and his name is listed.

Is there a problem with that?

diverdriver

I think they hired Catholic workers all right. It would be hard not to in Dublin. However it is a fact that right until the 1960s there were no Roman Catholic managers. In fact it's well known that the first Catholic manager appointed in Guinness was in fact Gay Byrne's brother, Edward.

It may surprise many that it's not a myth that many 'protestant' companies in the Republic up to the sixties and maybe even beyond, preferred to hire protestant workers. It was a simple fact of life at the time.

I remember my Father telling me of the hiring policies at the factory he worked at, after WW2 into the fifties. They were as follows: British ex servicemen, Irish Protestant ex servicemen, Irish protestants, catholic ex servicemen and finally catholics. When I say ex serviceman, I mean British of course. This was in Dublin not Belfast. My Father was very matter of fact about it. That's the way it was.

This was true all over, many businesses were owned by protestants and they hired their own kind. That hadn't changed with independance. It is fair to say however that the reverse was certainly true as well.

Different times.

McArmalite

diverdriver wrote: »

It may surprise many that it's not a myth that many 'protestant' companies in the Republic up to the sixties and maybe even beyond, preferred to hire protestant workers. It was a simple fact of life at the time.

I remember my Father telling me of the hiring policies at the factory he worked at, after WW2 into the fifties. They were as follows: British ex servicemen, Irish Protestant ex servicemen, Irish protestants, catholic ex servicemen and finally catholics. When I say ex serviceman, I mean British of course. This was in Dublin not Belfast. My Father was very matter of fact about it. That's the way it was. This was true all over, many businesses were owned by protestants and they hired their own kind. That hadn't changed with independance.

Troll. Their never was that level of religious discrimination across business and work down in the 26 counties. And don't bother giving " me daddy said " baloney. If it was that common I'm sure you can come up with many examples that have become common knowledge around the country.

It is fair to say however that the reverse was certainly true as well.

Different times.

Their were a very, very few and isolated examples of religious bigotry in the 26 counties, such as the Fethard on Sea scandal. Likewise there was an incident in Sligo town where a large clothes shop advertised looking for a shop assistant with the words " No RC's need apply ". But stop trying to pretend that employment wise, nationalist Ireland was but a mere reflection of the unionist state.

Hagar

Difference between Guinness and a Protestant?
You can get a pint out of a Guinness...




*Only joking. It's your round btw.

McArmalite

MonicaBing wrote: »

Hope i'm posting this in correct place, but, does anyone know apart from the obvious connection of Arthur Guinness' family being from Portadown, what are the Protestant connections with the Guinness brewery?

My fella's in Oz at the mo and is a pure nationalist but some mates of his told him that at one time, the brewery would not hire Catholic workers and there was all sorts of bigotry against the Catholic workers in favour of the Protestant workers?? There was some more rubbish but to be honest with you, i think they're taking the pish...

Have looked up Wiki etc and there's nothing akin to what he's talking about?

Sounds suspiciously like Conspiracy theory crap to me?

Don't think it was necessarily to do with the fact that Arthur Guinness's crowd were from Portadown. Unionist bigotry was very present in Dublin down the years, the first Orange Order headquarters was on Dawson Street, if you look at old photos of Grafton St etc you'll see plenty of photos of Butcher's Apron's (union jacks) flying. In fact in the 1918 election, Trinity and Rathmines* constituency's returned unionists.


*Rathmines/Ranelagh was the wealthy area of Dublin before the culchies and students turned it into flat land.

Hagar

McArmalite wrote: »

*Rathmines/Ranelagh was the wealthy area of Dublin before the culchies and students turned it into flat land.

And now Trinity elects our Seanad. I suppose we should be grateful the Gardaí own Rathmines/Ranelagh.

diverdriver

Troll. Their never was that level of religious discrimination across business and work down in the 26 counties. And don't bother giving " me daddy said " baloney. If it was that common I'm sure you can come up with many examples that have become common knowledge around the country.

In your Leprechauns and fairies dancing at the crossroads fantasy world. Did you even read what I said, read it again. I don't appreciate being called a troll when I've virtually confirmed what you said in your earlier post. Just because you're unaware of it doesn't mean it wasn't normal practice. Go and do your own research. It was a fact of life at the time. For your information my Father was very well informed and active politically and in the trade union movement. Also he didn't demonstrate the kind of prejudice and ignorance commonly seen on this forum. He lived through it and saw it happen. Frankly I would take his opinion over yours anyday.

It is really absolutely astonishing the level of ignorance and prejudice displayed by some many people on this forum and in this country. This is a history forum not for political wishful thinking.

It happened, just because you wish it otherwise doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Crumble Froo

guinness was originally name something like Guinness' Black Protestant Porter, and the family had originally been staunchly Protestant and anti-Catholic... subsequent generations however, became known for support of Catholic's rights.

i can't talk for employment of workers, but just naming it a 'Protestant' porter, i wouldn't be too shocked to find discrimination in the employment process back in the 18th century.

donaghs

McArmalite wrote: »

Troll. Their never was that level of religious discrimination across business and work down in the 26 counties. And don't bother giving " me daddy said " baloney. If it was that common I'm sure you can come up with many examples that have become common knowledge around the country.

Their were a very, very few and isolated examples of religious bigotry in the 26 counties, such as the Fethard on Sea scandal. Likewise there was an incident in Sligo town where a large clothes shop advertised looking for a shop assistant with the words " No RC's need apply ". But stop trying to pretend that employment wise, nationalist Ireland was but a mere reflection of the unionist state.

Fraid your wrong there. Various business in Dublin and Ireland were Protestant dominated until the 1960s - the management that is. The banks are a very good example of this. This has come up on a earlier thread before. With source material showing how Protestants gradually fell from a majority of bank clerk positions to a minority, after independence.
http://webird.tcd.ie/bitstream/2262/...XXVI45_137.pdf

I heard Finbarr Flood, former MD of Guinness, interviewed on Marian Finucane about 2 months ago. He described the rigid class (and religious) hierarchy which existed in Guinness. How's that for a primary source! He's was one of the original icebreakers to be promoted through the ranks there.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/so-thats-two-first-class-return-tickets-just-dont-turn-up-for-the-hotel-rooms-and-leave-the-car-sitting-there-and-the-price-is-half-that-for-two-seats-on-their-own-128128.html

As for hearsay, I don't have any evidence on this one, so can anyone back this up? Was Pat Molloy the first Catholic Chief Executive of Bank of Ireland?

I don't believe policy documents existed on how to exclude certain workers. Simply, in a time before anti-discrimination laws, different organisations sometimes favoured "their own kind" when hiring. As other poster has said, different times, we've moved on.

It might not fit in with your world view, but you shouldn't ignore that it happened.

getz

Crumble Froo wrote: »

guinness was originally name something like Guinness' Black Protestant Porter, and the family had originally been staunchly Protestant and anti-Catholic... subsequent generations however, became known for support of Catholic's rights.

i can't talk for employment of workers, but just naming it a 'Protestant' porter, i wouldn't be too shocked to find discrimination in the employment process back in the 18th century.

as porter was the drink before mr guiness put his name on it-it originated in london the first workers ,brewers, came from the uk-and i would think they and there familys would be prostestant -as in that day and age son followed there fathers in the same job and in a high protestant area, you would not expect many catholics to have been employed-

donaghs

McArmalite wrote: »

Don't think it was necessarily to do with the fact that Arthur Guinness's crowd were from Portadown. Unionist bigotry was very present in Dublin down the years, the first Orange Order headquarters was on Dawson Street, if you look at old photos of Grafton St etc you'll see plenty of photos of Butcher's Apron's (union jacks) flying. In fact in the 1918 election, Trinity and Rathmines* constituency's returned unionists.


*Rathmines/Ranelagh was the wealthy area of Dublin before the culchies and students turned it into flat land.

Not sure if you've been to Dublin in recent decades, but Rathmines still is one of the wealthiest parts of Dublin. The 70s/80s flatland aspect also declined during the Celtic Tiger.

Trinity wasn't really a proper constituency, more of a small rotten borough which guaranteed two unionist MPs every time.

On the other hand South County Dublin did sometimes elect Unionist MPs, in properly contested elections. But just because some people wished to maintain some union with Britain, by voting or flying a flag - does that make them bigots? You might have it backwards.

Not forgetting of course that history isn't black and white, its always more complicated. Some of those people waving the union jacks would have been Catholics who saw themselves as British and Irish. But those were different times.

Fratton Fred

Crumble Froo wrote: »

guinness was originally name something like Guinness' Black Protestant Porter, and the family had originally been staunchly Protestant and anti-Catholic... subsequent generations however, became known for support of Catholic's rights.

i can't talk for employment of workers, but just naming it a 'Protestant' porter, i wouldn't be too shocked to find discrimination in the employment process back in the 18th century.

Are you sure that is true.

My understanding is that although he spoke out against the united Irishmen, he was a supporter of catholic emancipation, being a supporter of Henry Grattan. one of Arthur Guinness' sons was called John Grattan Guinness, his grandson Henry Grattan Guinness.

Was the beer actually called "Protestant Porter" or is that the name it was dubbed by supporters of Wolfe Tone?

I think there may have been a bit of anti protestant manipulation regarding the Guinness family.

getz

donaghs wrote: »

Fraid your wrong there. Various business in Dublin and Ireland were Protestant dominated until the 1960s - the management that is. The banks are a very good example of this. This has come up on a earlier thread before. With source material showing how Protestants gradually fell from a majority of bank clerk positions to a minority, after independence.
http://webird.tcd.ie/bitstream/2262/...XXVI45_137.pdf

I heard Finbarr Flood, former MD of Guinness, interviewed on Marian Finucane about 2 months ago. He described the rigid class (and religious) hierarchy which existed in Guinness. How's that for a primary source! He's was one of the original icebreakers to be promoted through the ranks there.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/so-thats-two-first-class-return-tickets-just-dont-turn-up-for-the-hotel-rooms-and-leave-the-car-sitting-there-and-the-price-is-half-that-for-two-seats-on-their-own-128128.html

As for hearsay, I don't have any evidence on this one, so can anyone back this up? Was Pat Molloy the first Catholic Chief Executive of Bank of Ireland?

I don't believe policy documents existed on how to exclude certain workers. Simply, in a time before anti-discrimination laws, different organisations sometimes favoured "their own kind" when hiring. As other poster has said, different times, we've moved on.

I might not fit in with your world view, but you shouldn't ignore the it happened.

discrimination as a word did not exist at the turn of the 20th century enployers employed who they wanted most small buisneses in the south of the country would only employ catholics because they were catholic-and i am sure that in a prostestant area the buisneses would only employ protestants-but you are wasting your time trying to explain this to the bigots they will always look for a hidden agenda

McArmalite

getz wrote: »

discrimination as a word did not exist at the turn of the 20th century enployers employed who they wanted most small buisneses in the south of the country would only employ catholics because they were catholic-and i am sure that in a prostestant area the buisneses would only employ protestants-but you are wasting your time trying to explain this to the bigots they will always look for a hidden agenda

So the well documented cases of Catholics been burned out of their homes, driven from their work places etc did not exist either ?? I suppose the Penal Laws were not a form of discrimination either. But then according to you the word did not exist so there was in fact no discrimanation pre 20th century -in your unionist book ofcourse
But since their are records post 20th century, when I asked your other unionist friends that if discrimanation was so common place and reampant down in the south up until the 60's, driverdriver couldn't produce one shred of evidence except - ME " DADDY " said so

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

So the well documented cases of Catholics been burned out of their homes, driven from their work places etc did not exist either ?? I suppose the Penal Laws were not a form of discrimination either. But then according to you the word did not exist so there was in fact no discrimanation pre 20th century -in your unionist book ofcourse
But since their are records post 20th century, when I asked your other unionist friends that if discrimanation was so common place and reampant down in the south up until the 60's, driverdriver couldn't produce one shred of evidence except - ME " DADDY " said so

I would be interested in your thoughts on my post no 18.

From what I have read, Guinness (The company) was not so much anti Catholic, but it appears to have had the "Glass Ceiling" for Non-Anglicans like a lot of companies did in those days.

McArmalite

diverdriver wrote: »

In your Leprechauns and fairies dancing at the crossroads fantasy world. Did you even read what I said, read it again. I don't appreciate being called a troll when I've virtually confirmed what you said in your earlier post. Just because you're unaware of it doesn't mean it wasn't normal practice. Go and do your own research. It was a fact of life at the time. For your information my Father was very well informed and active politically and in the trade union movement. Also he didn't demonstrate the kind of prejudice and ignorance commonly seen on this forum. He lived through it and saw it happen. Frankly I would take his opinion over yours anyday.

It is really absolutely astonishing the level of ignorance and prejudice displayed by some many people on this forum and in this country. This is a history forum not for political wishful thinking.

It happened, just because you wish it otherwise doesn't mean it didn't happen.

So when asked to produce some factual evidence - which should be quite easy if discrimanation was so rampant down south in the 50's and 60's, all he can say is .....ME DADDY SAID SO :rolleyes:

Noble Knight

McArmalite wrote: »

Don't think it was necessarily to do with the fact that Arthur Guinness's crowd were from Portadown. Unionist bigotry was very present in Dublin down the years, the first Orange Order headquarters was on Dawson Street, if you look at old photos of Grafton St etc you'll see plenty of photos of Butcher's Apron's (union jacks) flying. In fact in the 1918 election, Trinity and Rathmines* constituency's returned unionists.


*Rathmines/Ranelagh was the wealthy area of Dublin before the culchies and students turned it into flat land.

You need to check your history mate when you use terms such as Unionist Bigotry etc etc.

Couple of questions Mr Gun

1) When was the act of Union between Ireland and the UK

2) When was Guinness founded?

getz

McArmalite wrote: »

So the well documented cases of Catholics been burned out of their homes, driven from their work places etc did not exist either ?? I suppose the Penal Laws were not a form of discrimination either. But then according to you the word did not exist so there was in fact no discrimanation pre 20th century -in your unionist book ofcourse
But since their are records post 20th century, when I asked your other unionist friends that if discrimanation was so common place and reampant down in the south up until the 60's, driverdriver couldn't produce one shred of evidence except - ME " DADDY " said so

so you would like some facts about religious persecution in the republic since 1920 ? ok lets look at it there has been a expulsion of protestants in the republic much to the shame of the goverment over a 60% drop in areas like leitrim,donegal, and co monagan, in the republic from a population of 340,000 only 120,000 left, since the formation of the irish free state there has been dozens of murders in west brandun[cork]no one has been arrested; protestants in donegal and other border states subjected to violence in the hands of anti/treety forces even up to 1957 the church of ireland had a problem with catholics-and we all know what the goverment ministers said about employing protestants-at least in the north the catholic population hasent gone down

Noble Knight

getz wrote: »

so you would like some facts about religious persecution in the republic since 1920 ? ok lets look at it there has been a expulsion of protestants in the republic much to the shame of the goverment over a 60% drop in areas like leitrim,donegal, and co monagan, in the republic from a population of 340,000 only 120,000 left, since the formation of the irish free state there has been dozens of murders in west brandun[cork]no one has been arrested; protestants in donegal and other border states subjected to violence in the hands of anti/treety forces even up to 1957 the church of ireland had a problem with catholics-and we all know what the goverment ministers said about employing protestants-at least in the north the catholic population hasent gone down

You forgot to mention how Protestant Orphanages where not given state funding by the Irish Republics goverment.

irishgrover

in fairness, it's impressive that there are any protestants of any political persuasion left in the 26 counties considering the duel approach of the pyromaniac 'volunteers' of the early free state and the wonderful Catholic Church and it's enlightened Ne Temere policies...

RDM_83

Was there ever any thing like the Bass "Campaign" against the Protestant Accession brewers or were Republicans at that time solely motivated against British Imports

Crumble Froo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are you sure that is true.

fairly sure. read it in a book and found it to be quite a fascinating snippet of info, do a quick google, it throws up a fair few links in support of it. my understanding of the situation is that the original guinness guy was anti-united irishmen and catholics, but that subsequent generations were pro-catholic emancipation.

http://www.irishecho.com/newspaper/story.cfm?id=12381

http://www.europe-cities.com/en/609/ireland/dublin/history/famous-people/

http://hornpipe.net/?p=443

McArmalite

Noble Knight wrote: »

You need to check your history mate when you use terms such as Unionist Bigotry etc etc.

Couple of questions Mr Gun

1) When was the act of Union between Ireland and the UK

2) When was Guinness founded?

English attempts to govern Ireland had long been marked by the passing of various acts to secure its rule: in 1367, the Statutes of Kilkenny sought to prevent the Old English from any further adoption of Gaelic culture, and Poynings Law of 1494 made the Irish parliament subservient to the English one.

Anyway, we're going off topic.

McArmalite

getz wrote: »

so you would like some facts about religious persecution in the republic since 1920 ? ok lets look at it there has been a expulsion of protestants in the republic much to the shame of the goverment over a 60% drop in areas like leitrim,donegal, and co monagan, in the republic from a population of 340,000 only 120,000 left, since the formation of the irish free state there has been dozens of murders in west brandun[cork]no one has been arrested; protestants in donegal and other border states subjected to violence in the hands of anti/treety forces even up to 1957 the church of ireland had a problem with catholics-and we all know what the goverment ministers said about employing protestants-at least in the north the catholic population hasent gone down

Where did you get your numbers from ?? " dozens of murders in west brandun[cork]no one has been arrested..... protestants in donegal and other border states subjected to violence in the hands of anti/treety forces even up to 1957..... " Your Daddy or Reform ??

You should find all the answers to your unionist queries on this post previously on the history forum. " In fairness though the Protestant population in Ireland had been in decline in Ireland from the late 1800's and the biggest drop it saw was during thne years of 1910-1925, while Britain still ruled the country until 1922. And while the Protestant population did decline in the south, it did so gradually over the course of 40 or 50 years; its didnt suddenly just plummet "
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58234078&postcount=143

Anyway, we're going off topic, again:rolleyes:

Mad Finn

Gay Byrne in his autobiography is quite illuminating about Guinness. His family was steeped in the service of the company in the first half of the 20th century.

It is true that Catholics were very few and far between in the office staff at Guinness until the 1950s. Certainly there were loads of Catholic employees but they tended to be the manual labourers, the ones hefting the barrels and driving the barges down the Liffey to the export ships.

Guinness also had a policy after World War I of recruiting ex servicemen. The jobs were known as "jobs fit for heroes" as a play on the promises the Lloyd George government made in the first election after the war: "A land fit for heroes"

This was how Gaybo's father came to work there. He had served in WWI along with his five brothers! All good Catholic boys in the service of his Majesty. He was employed as a barge captain.

Gaybo's brother Al was one of the first Catholics to be employed on the office staff round about the start of the 1950s. My parents told me that a contemporary of theirs was one of the first Catholic secretaries in Guinness. That was round about that time too.

What caused this apparent discrimination? Maybe just years of custom, an expectation that people of a certain class and outlook would be the ideal material for office employees. It's hard to undo the habits of generations overnight. It takes time for emancipation and reforms to work their way through to create a new state of affairs.