Garda Searches?

BravoMike

When is a Garda allowed to search a person or a persons car. Do they have to suspect and justify that the person has done wrong or has intent to do wrong or are Gardai allowed to search people randomly?

djtechnics1210

But to answer your question, a member of AGS should tell you why you or your car is being searched and give you the option of having the search conducted there and then or back at the station (that is providing you were co operative)

A member needs reasonable suspicion in order to search person/car

You will find every act and every power of search here

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/isbc/commence.html

If the member was looking for controlled substances then start with reading Section 23 Misuse of Drugs Act legislation

DeVore

Seems like a reasonable question really, dont presume that everyone who asks something has a hidden agenda

For example, I'm fascinated by the topic of how we govern ourselves and the manner in which those who are on the sharp end of the interaction with the public are regulated. I have the same problem here with Moderators and the general public and christ, I cant imagine what you guys have to deal with

I'm really interested in what the rules are for the Gardai and how they have solved the problems we have incountered here (or havent as the case may be!).

(You might have noticed I've gotten very interested in this forum lately )

Anyway, interesting answer... does anyone define "reasonable suspicion" anywhere? Do you get examples to guide you?


DeV.

civdef

"Reasonable suspicion" is not a clearcut thing, the Police & Criminal Evidence Ace (PACE) in England & Wales says the following:

There must be some basis for the officer’s belief, related to you personally, which can be considered and evaluated by an objective third person. Mere suspicion based on hunch or instinct might justify observation but cannot justify a search.

However, reasonable suspicion can sometimes exist without specific information or intelligence and on the basis of some level of generalisation stemming from the behaviour of a person. For example, if an officer encounters someone on the street at night obviously trying to hide something, this clearly constitutes conduct that might reasonably lead the officer to suspect that stolen or prohibited articles are being carried.

As a practical guide, I was taught that being "about 30% sure" the person was guilty was enough to constitute reasonable suspicion.

BravoMike

Ok firstly the only interactions I have had with the Gardai were positive ones at random checkpoints and once when I was caught speeding so I have no hidden adgendas here!! In no way did my first post indicate wrong doing of any form on my part so please dont jump to conclusions when someone askes a question about searches.
The question came across my mind when I saw the ERU here in Limerick searching persons and also the car that they were in. Also another time at a checkpoint the Garda pulled over a car and searched the car and its occupants.

BTW thank you for the answers

CLADA

BravoMike wrote: »

The question came across my mind when I saw the ERU here in Limerick searching persons and also the car that they were in. Also another time at a checkpoint the Garda pulled over a car and searched the car and its occupants.

BTW thank you for the answers

They would be exercising powers of search under Section 30 of the offences against the state act. The powers of search under this act entitle you to stop and search where you "suspect" the occupants of a vehicle may be committing an offence under the Act, (in possession of firearms,explosives etc..).

Micky Dolenz

Could a person defend themselves in court saying that there were no reasonable suspicion for them to be searched even if something illegal was found. Bascially saying that the search was itself illlegal and any evidence found from such a search would be deemed inaccessible by a court?

CLADA

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Could a person defend themselves in court saying that there were no reasonable suspicion for them to be searched even if something illegal was found. Bascially saying that the search was itself illlegal and any evidence found from such a search would be deemed inaccessible by a court?

In a democracy you can defend yourself in court by any number of reasons or excuses, if the judge or jury as the case may be accept your version then you're off.

You can obviously ask for gardai in court to account for reasonable suspicion or reasonable cause to believe, but if you are up on a charge of possessing (whatever it is they were looking for ) it ain't gonna be too hard to convince the court they had reasonable suspicion.

Section 30 merely requires that the Garda "suspects".

eroo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Could a person defend themselves in court saying that there were no reasonable suspicion for them to be searched even if something illegal was found.

Wouldn't the fact that something illegal was found, prove that the Gardai's suspicions were proven to be justified?;)

deadwood

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Could a person defend themselves in court saying that there were no reasonable suspicion for them to be searched even if something illegal was found. Bascially saying that the search was itself illlegal and any evidence found from such a search would be deemed inaccessible by a court?

You've answered your own question there.

That is why a guard doesn't undertake to search a person lightly. They must justify their actions in court.

Before this turns into "me and my mates are always getting searched because the cops hate us" thing, remember, you won't be searched unless you give the guard a very good reason to.

The same extends to search warrants.

Micky Dolenz

So why does it even exist?

A search could occur because the police person was bored, didn't like the look of car, a million reasons really.

Proving any of these reasons would be near impossible even if a search proved fruitless.


EDIT: You kinda of answered it on last post.

djtechnics1210

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Could a person defend themselves in court saying that there were no reasonable suspicion for them to be searched even if something illegal was found. Bascially saying that the search was itself illlegal and any evidence found from such a search would be deemed inaccessible by a court?

Many search warrants issued under the various legislative acts have been challenged in court and the warrant or the information for the warrant has found to be flawed, hence making the search unlawful and thus rendering the evidence found useless which has resulted in defendant getting off scott free.

I have seen cases where a person that was searched on street and found with controlled substance. their defence has challenged it in court and won the case on the reasonable suspicion. I have also seen this in the case of car searches

Reasonable suspicion is a very broad area and somewhat of a minefield if people dive into it.

If member of AGS stops a car and the driver/passenger is trying to keep my attention away from car or some part of car it could be conceived by member of AGS that the person is trying to hide something or has something in the vehicle or on his/her person that he doesn't want member to find.

In UK I believe it is the practice that people that are stopped and search receive a kind of receipt stating who stopped them and why they were searched etc...... i'll leave one of our counterparts from uk confirm that one

djtechnics1210

deadwood wrote: »

The same extends to search warrants.

Exactly. District Court Judges are wanting more and more information these days in giving out search warrants... rightly so too

Micky Dolenz

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Many search warrants issued under the various legislative acts have been challenged in court and the warrant or the information for the warrant has found to be flawed, hence making the search unlawful and thus rendering the evidence found useless which has resulted in defendant getting off scott free.

I have seen cases where a person that was searched on street and found with controlled substance. their defence has challenged it in court and won the case on the reasonable suspicion. I have also seen this in the case of car searches

Reasonable suspicion is a very broad area and somewhat of a minefield if people dive into it.

If member of AGS stops a car and the driver/passenger is trying to keep my attention away from car or some part of car it could be conceived by member of AGS that the person is trying to hide something or has something in the vehicle or on his/her person that he doesn't want member to find.

In UK I believe it is the practice that people that are stopped and search receive a kind of receipt stating who stopped them and why they were searched etc...... i'll leave one of our counterparts from uk confirm that one

Great informative answer, thanks

rogers4815

I heard that a Garda can't search someone under the age of 18 without a parent or guardian present. Is this right or is the person I heard it from making stuff up?

Tigger

i have never been searched i think they only do it if they suspect they will find something

hence suspision otherwise why search you

i was dropping a friend to a funeral in a bad area a while ago the house near a bad mans house had some people that my friend wanted to chat to first before going down to the dead womandnsn house

so i dropped my friend
picked her up 10 mins later and then dropped her again

as i drove off an unmarked car followed then flashed the blue lights at me so i pulled in and got out

they askled me what i was at i explained the situation and told them that i klnew exactly what they were thinking but reassured them that i had no intention of breaking the law
the driver asked to see my last dialled calls i showed him and they left

i assumne they suspected i was picking summit up but then their suspision was allayed once i explained the situation, also i drive a sporty car and its white , so once the suspicion was gone they didn't bother searching the car


i don't believe that if you have done nothing wrong you should allow massivepowers but i do believe that the members of AGS have enough to do with out searching peeps that they don't suspect of anything

jonny coachrane anyone

yayamark

If everyone we came accross was like you tigger our job would would be very simple

BTW not every unmarked car or 4x4 in Limerick is an ERU unit.

On the stop and search members should be respectful and explain the procedure to the public before and then thank them afterwards for been co-operative.

Even if they are not polite back to me i allways am.

"Kill them with kindness"

Drives em mad

BravoMike

ERU down here have had at least 5 to 6 vehicles, two of which are slightly out of the ordinary for garda cars.

yayamark

BravoMike wrote: »

ERU down here have had at least 5 to 6 vehicles, two of which are slightly out of the ordinary for garda cars.

And how do u know the are ERU?

djtechnics1210

yayamark wrote: »

And how do u know the are ERU?

ERU vehicles are always very discreet

yayamark

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

ERU vehicles are always very discreet

People see an unmarked car or 4x4 and jump to conclusions.

djtechnics1210

I know exactly what ya mean... people see a nissan qashqai with a few people in it they think its ERU,
Id say if some people seen a 1985 toyota corolla with 4 lads in it they would think its the ERU.

BravoMike

yayamark wrote: »

And how do u know the are ERU?

yayamark PM sent

TheNog

yayamark wrote: »

And how do u know the are ERU?

Cos they were all wearing sunglasses and smell of Old Spice was unbelievable!!!

TheNog

As everyone pretty much knows my time spent in AGS has pretty short so far but I have found different methods used to search a person/people. The method I use is the latter and its stood to me so far without incident or injury to me, my colleague and the person being searched. There are really are only two ways to conduct a search. The right way and the wrong way:

The wrong way:

Dont approach a person/car and in a gruff manner

Dont immediately stick your hands into anyones pockets without first:
- ask them if they have anything on them that they shouldnt have
- ask them if they have anything sharp in their pockets (knives, syringes, paper .. papercuts are the worst and will result in me going sick )

If at all possible dont search a person in public view.. sometimes impossible I know

The right way:

Talk to them first to ease the any possible situation/resistance that may come

Ask them if they have they have anything on them (see above RE: items in their pockets)

Take them somewhere as private as possible but only if possible

Keep them talking while conducting the search. This will keep them calm and you can monitor their voice. Try to make light of the situation

Inform them what Act you are going use to search them. If their speaking is stressed a possible attack you is imminent

If you notice the S/O trousers fly is open, ask him to pull the fly first before bending down to search his ankles/shoes. My mate got a few slaps on the forehead from a foreigners willy once. Funny I know

When finished the search thank them for their time

These are just a few things I can remember off hand and certainly each search can be slightly different so if you want to add anything go ahead.

donvito99

TheNog wrote: »

If you notice the S/O trousers fly is open, ask him to pull the fly first before bending down to search his ankles/shoes. My mate got a few slaps on the forehead from a foreigners willy once. Funny I know

TheNog wrote: »

Talk to them first to ease the any possible situation/resistance that may come

Put on protective gloves

Ask them if they have they have anything on them (see above RE: items in their pockets)

Take them somewhere as private as possible but only if possible

Gloves maybe?

deadwood

Go to the boot of the patrol car, rummage around a bit first and make sure the suspect hears you asking your colleague where he put the elbow-length gloves.

...or take off your watch first...

djtechnics1210

Then ask where did you leave the head torch

TheNog

donvito99 wrote: »

Gloves maybe?

Wha????

Are they some sort of fancy invention to protect yourself with?

Eru

Reasonable suspicion, ah the greyest of grey areas. Easiest way I can think off:

Do you suspect god exists? Do you believe god exists? Do you know for a fact god exists?

If there is some evidence that suggests you may have commited a crime, thats suspicion / arrest. If there is enough evidence that you did commit a crime thats a charge. If it has been proven that you did commit the crime, thats a conviction.

Please however always be aware, Gardai can ask you anything within reason. If they ask can they look in the boot of your car and you say yes then no suspicion or law is required. The same as asking you most questions, if you freely answer then theres no law required. Of course if it goes into intimate areas thats a different ball game.

Most of the time I find people reasonable when it comes to searches. Known persons know the drill and why were doing it, they comply, its done quick and easy and everyones happy.

Most other people, such as people never arrested etc. Same again, if you explain why your stopping them, why you would like to search them they are usually decent about it because they appreciate your simple trying to do your job and by allowing this minor inconvenience they are assisting in stopping the bad guys.

Victor

TheNog wrote: »

If you notice the S/O trousers fly is open, ask him to pull the fly first before bending down to search his ankles/shoes. My mate got a few slaps on the forehead from a foreigners willy once. Funny I know

If his fly is open, why is his fly open?

Eru wrote: »

Please however always be aware, Gardai can ask you anything within reason. If they ask can they look in the boot of your car and you say yes then no suspicion or law is required. The same as asking you most questions, if you freely answer then theres no law required. Of course if it goes into intimate areas thats a different ball game.

A friend's father runs a security company. He was stopped a check point with one older garda and another who was rather green. The older garda know who he was, but didn't let on. The younger garda got it into his mind that a search of the rear of the van was warranted. The driver hesitated "you don't really want to do that" which made it even more 'interesting'. The young garda was greeted with a pair of animated Alsatians.

DavidH82

Victor wrote: »

If his fly is open, why is his fly open?
A friend's father runs a security company. He was stopped a check point with one older garda and another who was rather green. The older garda know who he was, but didn't let on. The younger garda got it into his mind that a search of the rear of the van was warranted. The driver hesitated "you don't really want to do that" which made it even more 'interesting'. The young garda was greeted with a pair of animated Alsatians.

Classic, I bet that knocked the youthful enthusiasm out of him.

deadwood

Victor wrote: »

The young garda was greeted with a pair of animated Alsatians.

Like this?

(Or is scooby a great dane?)

DeVore

*badoom...tish*

waaaka waakka waaaka.... deadwood is here till thursday and recommends the fish everybody!


And yes, Scooby-Doo is a Great Dane...

DeV
ps: I will never read anything by you again without envisioning a retired Garda driving around in the Mystery Machine...