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is it hard to get out of a lease?

  • 10-03-2009 02:46PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21


    hey, new to this so hi every1,

    im in a bit of a situation...i own my own business which is located in the stephens green shopping centre...things were going fine until the recession hit and am finding it difficult now...

    the rent is due at the end of the month and usually i would have funds left over to buy stock, pay wages etc but this time round, after i pay the rent im left with feck all...

    we asked the landlord for a rent reduction and were told 'no'..id gladly give the keys back and call it a day but we have signed a 5 yr lease...

    am i screwed? will they come after me if i simply can no longer pay the rent, close up and give the keys back?


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,203 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    3 questions:

    1. Did you personally sign the Lease?

    2. Or was it in a company name? and if so, did you give a personal guarantee?

    3. How long left to run?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21 peppy007


    3 questions:

    1. Did you personally sign the Lease?

    2. Or was it in a company name? and if so, did you give a personal guarantee?

    3. How long left to run?


    both..we are a limited company so the landlord wanted a personal guarantee ..otherwise they wernt interested. Tried to get my solicitor to get the landlord towaive this with no luck.

    3yrs left..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Do you have any real property in your name (family home or other investment property)?

    If the answer is NO then the law in Ireland is a rogue's charter and it's relatively easy to walk away from your contractual debt albeit dishonourable if you can at all avoid it. If the answer is YES then the landlord may well pursue you in court for a judgment against you and if succesful he may get a judgement mortgage registered against your property, which ultimately prevents you from remortgaging or selling your property without discharging the debt. It's a long slow process for the landlord however and he will have to pay legal costs in the hope that someday you need to sell up/remortgage.

    The landlord could turn to the county sherrif (once he has his judgement against you in the circuit court) to come round your house and seize goods but the sherrif is almost as good as useless and will never force entry into your house to do this so a lot of cerditors don't even bother contacting the sherrif.

    Get back in touch with your landlord and if needs be, show him the books and that you are in dire straits and try to negotiate with him. There's no point in him having a vacant unit and no rent and legal bills trying to follow you around if the alternative is a reduced rent and an occupied unit.....presuming your unit is not the only empty one in the centre?? If the landlord is very confident that he can find an alternative tenant to you at the current rate, he will obviously tell you to get lost if you ask for a reduction.

    Best of luck!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭DubTony


    peppy007 wrote: »

    we asked the landlord for a rent reduction and were told 'no'..id gladly give the keys back and call it a day but we have signed a 5 yr lease...

    Commercial landlords need to get real. Having said that, they aren't the only ones. Their friends in the legal prefession could do with a reality check as well. The "upward only" rent review is as good as a thing of the past, yet a brand new lease a friend was presented with last week had this very clause in it. When he instructed his solicitor to get back to the landlords solicitor and have it removed, his solicitor told him that it was unlikely to be removed as it's standard. He's deciding whether to find a new location or a new solicitor. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭stepbar


    What's your business out of a matter of interest?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭itsonlyme


    I know tenants in the general Grafton St/Stephens Green area that have gone to their landords recently and looked for a rent reduction for the next 12 months due to the recession and the landlords have obliged them.

    This is probably due to the fact that the landlords know they wont get another tenant in this market and the rent reduction is temporary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭mick.fr


    Surely the collapse of the economy, the recession etc, can be assimilated to exceptional circumstances and as in any proper contract, there should be something about that so you could get out without the risk of being sued.

    The "Cas de force majeure" you know what I mean? The french sentense is often used in English direcly.

    Very often I have this kind of elements in contracts I sign, you never know. Always cover your @ss with the unpredictabe, especially when you have an obligation to deliver.

    Just my 2 cents, I am not a sollicitor


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭MrPillowTalk


    If you have no assets then the personal guarantee is largely worthless, if you do then Im afraid short of appealing to the landlords nature you dont really have an option but to stick it out.

    Tbh if the business really is a non runner and you liquidate then it is unlikely the landlord will act on the personal guarantee unless you have large personal wealth as truth be told it is hard to get a court to bring a judgement against someone personally that arises from genuine commercial mishap.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭Lplated


    Tbh if the business really is a non runner and you liquidate then it is unlikely the landlord will act on the personal guarantee unless you have large personal wealth as truth be told it is hard to get a court to bring a judgement against someone personally that arises from genuine commercial mishap.

    Not legal advice, BUT - this is wrong, and a very dangerous risk to take.

    The only basis for a court to refuse judgment is if there is a valid defence to the application for judgment, and commercial mishap is not an accepted defence (unless by some miracle it was specifically included as such in the lease/contract).

    You also cannot rely on the landlord not seeking judgment on the basis you don't have large personal wealth - there are some creditors whose policy is to get judgment anyway on the basis that they may enforce it in the future if your situation improved.

    You're only real avenue is negotiation with the landlord. One suggestion may be to get together with other tenants in the Centre and form a kind of 'lobby group' - you may find that the landlord is more open to negotiation when faced with a mass walk out/mass refusal to pay rent or whatever - but this is a 'policitical' rather than legal solution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭delllat


    a personal guarantee is not worth a fcuk if you have nothing to guarantee it with

    the blood out of a stone thing.......


    I have seen people walking away from leases and there isnt a ****load a landlord can do

    if he can be arsed bringing a judgement against you he may win it but itis more hassle for nothing depending if you have nothing to be judged against ao he might not bother

    If you know the business is going under and a rent reduction is only going to prolong things then id give him back his shop and let him rent it to someone else

    theres no point waiting til u owe a few months rent and then give himm back the keys or wait til he kicks you out


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,854 ✭✭✭✭cormie


    So if a personal guarantee is useless if you have no property, what's to stop somebody who has the likes of a house/lamborghini, just giving the deeds to a spouse/brother/somebody they trust and continuing to drive the car and live in the house?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    My advice OP is never give a personal guarantee when getting into a lease agreement, especially if you are trading as a company. At the end of the day, trading involves risk and you running a limited company offers you protection from that risk to a certain degree. I've been asked to offer a personal guarantee with a lease agreement before and I have refused to do so, on one occasion resulting on the deal falling through. My take on this is that running a business involves taking on a risk and your landlord is also taking on a risk when leasing a premises to you. This is an integral part of business and this thing in recent years where people try to insulate themselves 100% from risk, I don't agree with.

    If your business doesn't work out, against your very best effort and your best expectations, then don't be in a situation where your personal situation is compromised, as in you could have someone coming after your house. I know this is advice on the basis of foresight, at the end of the day, a 5 year lease term is a short term lease on the scale of things and your landlord has no options at the moment. It is unlikely in the short term that he will secure judgement against you or get another tenant, so he only has one real option and that is to work with you to resolve the situation and this means renegeotating the rent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Lplated wrote: »
    One suggestion may be to get together with other tenants in the Centre and form a kind of 'lobby group' - you may find that the landlord is more open to negotiation when faced with a mass walk out/mass refusal to pay rent or whatever - but this is a 'policitical' rather than legal solution.

    I was going to suggest something along the lines of this. You could "shame" him into being more realistic with you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    cormie wrote: »
    So if a personal guarantee is useless if you have no property, what's to stop somebody who has the likes of a house/lamborghini, just giving the deeds to a spouse/brother/somebody they trust and continuing to drive the car and live in the house?
    If you legally gave your house to your brother he'd be liable for substantial Gift Tax on it! It's also a highly risky thing to do anyway...you're giving your home away to someone else who you may have a big falling out with down the road. VERY few debtors will even contemplate risking this strategy. Giving it to your spouse is also highly risky (marriages fail, especially under financial strain!) but it would achieve nothing really as the courts would see the property as still being your property as a married couple.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    My advice OP is never give a personal guarantee when getting into a lease agreement, especially if you are trading as a company. At the end of the day, trading involves risk and you running a limited company offers you protection from that risk to a certain degree. I've been asked to offer a personal guarantee with a lease agreement before and I have refused to do so, on one occasion resulting on the deal falling through. My take on this is that running a business involves taking on a risk and your landlord is also taking on a risk when leasing a premises to you. This is an integral part of business and this thing in recent years where people try to insulate themselves 100% from risk, I don't agree with.

    If your business doesn't work out, against your very best effort and your best expectations, then don't be in a situation where your personal situation is compromised, as in you could have someone coming after your house. I know this is advice on the basis of foresight, at the end of the day, a 5 year lease term is a short term lease on the scale of things and your landlord has no options at the moment. It is unlikely in the short term that he will secure judgement against you or get another tenant, so he only has one real option and that is to work with you to resolve the situation and this means renegeotating the rent.
    As a landlord who's had a tenant overhold and cause significant loss of income I can understand 100% why landlords (including me) insist on a personal guarantee. It gives you that bit more certainty because believe me...when business turns down, the landlord soon becomes the lowest priority because if you stop paying your suppliers or utilities, they just cut you off and you're finished, whereas a landlord has an arduous process of going to the district court and then the circuit court to eventually get an ejectment order, all the while getting no rent and the tenant can keep trading.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭maxwell smart


    You could ask your landlord for a rent rebate. This is a nice little agreement that I've entered into for 3 premises our company are leasing. Basically he has not reduced the rent, however he is giving us a 50% rebate on our monthly payments. So he has not set a precident on reducing the rent and all 3 landlords still have a tenant, who should be able to do away with the rebate in 12 months time (hopefully).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭itsonlyme


    A friend of mine is looking to lease a unit at the moment, 35k per year, which is very reasonable for where it is. The landlord's Solicitor was looking for a Personal Guarantee and I told my friend not to give it and tell the Solr. that he has never given one in his life and was not going to start now!!!.

    I told him to do rent the property through their company.

    Does anyone know if a company signs a lease and things go pear-shaped with the business mid way through the lease, is the company then liable for the payment of rent for the duration of the lease?.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    itsonlyme wrote: »
    Does anyone know if a company signs a lease and things go pear-shaped with the business mid way through the lease, is the company then liable for the payment of rent for the duration of the lease?.
    Yes, of course! A lease is a contract-the company promises to pay rent to the landlord for x years and the landlord promises to make his property available exclusively to the tenant for the same period. The landlord sacrifices control over his property for the duration of the lease. Would it be any more acceptable if the landlord got a better offer and told the tenant to get lost?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭DubTony


    murphaph wrote: »
    Yes, of course! A lease is a contract-the company promises to pay rent to the landlord for x years and the landlord promises to make his property available exclusively to the tenant for the same period. The landlord sacrifices control over his property for the duration of the lease, ensures that the tenant signs a full maintenance lease, therefore being forced to paint the building every 3 or 4 years, fix everything that goes wrong whether it's his fault or not, pay all insurance costs associated with the building so that if the roof blows off the landlord won't have to stump up to fix it, and should the tenant break the lease, for any reason whatsoever, the landlord, having insisted on a personal guarantee, will get a lean on the tenant's house. Would it be any more acceptable if the landlord got a better offer and told the tenant to get lost?

    Fixed that for you Philip. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    murphaph wrote: »
    As a landlord who's had a tenant overhold and cause significant loss of income I can understand 100% why landlords (including me) insist on a personal guarantee. It gives you that bit more certainty because believe me...when business turns down, the landlord soon becomes the lowest priority because if you stop paying your suppliers or utilities, they just cut you off and you're finished, whereas a landlord has an arduous process of going to the district court and then the circuit court to eventually get an ejectment order, all the while getting no rent and the tenant can keep trading.

    A lot of people got into investment property in the last 10 years thinking it was a safe bet and normal business risks that are understood by real business people, didn't apply to their investment. Now you're learning a fundamental lesson in business that there are no safe bets out there and you're as exposed to risk and potential loss as every other business out there. Did you not understand, when you invested in property, that if your tenant defaults on the lease, you have to go to court to have the matter dealt with???
    itsonlyme wrote: »
    A friend of mine is looking to lease a unit at the moment, 35k per year, which is very reasonable for where it is. The landlord's Solicitor was looking for a Personal Guarantee and I told my friend not to give it and tell the Solr. that he has never given one in his life and was not going to start now!!!.

    I told him to do rent the property through their company.

    Does anyone know if a company signs a lease and things go pear-shaped with the business mid way through the lease, is the company then liable for the payment of rent for the duration of the lease?.

    Even if you are trading as a corporate body, if you give a personal guarantee and your company cannot meet its obligations under the terms of the lease, then you become personally liable for the rent due to the landlord. This means that judgement can be sought against you personally for the debt, because you have personally guaranteed the lease in addition to your company signing the lease. First rule of getting into a lease agreement is NEVER EVER give a personal guarantee.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    DubTony wrote: »
    Fixed that for you Philip. ;)
    Depends on the lease of course Tony but yes, if a landlord can get away with spending as little as possible and maximising his turnover, he will.....as would anyone in any businesses. It's ALL about thrashing out the best lease from each side's perspective. Prospective tenants are free to deal with another landlord and as Daragh correctly points out....property ownership/investment as a business brings its own pitfalls which can and are very expensive to sort. I'm not leveraged in the way Daragh seems to think I and I'm lucky....many landlords who took a chance and invested in property in recent years will of course now lose their investment.

    Buying property to let is a risky business-totally accept that and I know the legal pitfalls. It's business like anything else. It's for this reason that a landlord will seek to limit that risk by seeking personal guarantees (and usually gets them if the property has a high profile)

    To be honest, I'd consider myself a 'decent and honourable' landlord (both commercial and residential) and I repair my property asap when I'm notified of any issues. I am negotiating a new commercial lease at present and it will not contain such onerous conditions as you mention. I will commit to repairing the fabric of the building-the tenant will only be responsible for general upkeep. I know there are other landlords out there with a bad attitude, same as many tenants. Let's let the good landlords find the good tenants and leave the chancers find each other. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    murphaph wrote: »
    Buying property to let is a risky business-totally accept that and I know the legal pitfalls. It's business like anything else. It's for this reason that a landlord will seek to limit that risk by seeking personal guarantees (and usually gets them if the property has a high profile)

    It is a risky business now, but many people didn't think it was over the last 10 years when the banks were telling every gully that came though the bank door, that it was a "no brainer!" I will never understand people who invest in property. If everyone just bought what they needed for themselves, we'd be a lot better off than we are now. This crap over the last few years of hoovering up residential and commercial property just so you can say that you have it, has us in the mess we are now in with our economy. It was completely selfish carry on that we will spend the next number of generations trying to sort out...

    OP, if someone asks you for a personal guarantee, walk away. It's a tenants market now and will remain so for a good while yet. Upwards only rent reviews, Full Repairing and Insuring (FRI) leases, these are all a thing of the past now that the birds have come home to roost for our national property hero's who have wrecked our economy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I had a big reply but I won't. Suffice to say, landlords provide a service the world over. People can deal with whomever they like or they can buy their own premises if they don't want to rent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭DubTony


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    First rule of getting into a lease agreement is NEVER EVER give a personal guarantee.

    That's a great point Darragh, but there are things to consider.

    Take my business. If I see a c-store that's badly run and I think there's the strong possibility that I can improve business (by improve I mean at least double the turnover), I'll have to make an offer to the tenant before I ever see the lease. After that's been thrashed out, I then have to negotiate with the landlord. If he demands a personal guarantee, I either give that or walk away, but by walking away I give up on the opportunity that I've identified. The fact that most landlords want personal guarantees reduces the number of oportunities out there if you're never willing to sign that guarantee. Sometimes you need to play with the hand you're dealt.

    Now don't get me wrong. I don't agree with personal and bank guarantees. I agree that most landlords have a risk averse attitude and that's the reason they are in property, they see it / saw it as a safe bet. No business is or should be risk free. We set up companies for many reasons and one of those is to protect ourselves if things go pear-shaped. But with so many suppliers and landlords trying to insulate themselves from normal business risk, we either run the added risk of bankrupting ourselves because a property owner feels that he shouldn't have to worry about how he pays his mortgage, or we don't trade.

    Catch 22 ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    DubTony wrote: »
    That's a great point Darragh, but there are things to consider.

    Take my business. If I see a c-store that's badly run and I think there's the strong possibility that I can improve business (by improve I mean at least double the turnover), I'll have to make an offer to the tenant before I ever see the lease. After that's been thrashed out, I then have to negotiate with the landlord. If he demands a personal guarantee, I either give that or walk away, but by walking away I give up on the opportunity that I've identified. The fact that most landlords want personal guarantees reduces the number of oportunities out there if you're never willing to sign that guarantee. Sometimes you need to play with the hand you're dealt.

    Now don't get me wrong. I don't agree with personal and bank guarantees. I agree that most landlords have a risk averse attitude and that's the reason they are in property, they see it / saw it as a safe bet. No business is or should be risk free. We set up companies for many reasons and one of those is to protect ourselves if things go pear-shaped. But with so many suppliers and landlords trying to insulate themselves from normal business risk, we either run the added risk of bankrupting ourselves because a property owner feels that he shouldn't have to worry about how he pays his mortgage, or we don't trade.

    Catch 22 ?

    I agree with you there Tony. In an ideal world, the playing field would be more level. The problem with starting up a business in Ireland is that you very often get a gimp like mentality from banks and landlords, this kind of "take it or leave it" attitude. Thankfully this seems to be getting erroded now, as banks and landlords are being brought back down to the cloud that the rest of us have been living in over the last number of years.

    OP, if you are starting up a business, you are already probably risking your own capital. Say you're investing 50K in a start-up. Your landlord will probably want his 1st quarter rent up front in advance. If you're in a 40K a year rent situation, you're handing over 10K before you even see the keys...

    All business involves risk and if you are dealing with a landlord who doesn't understand risk and wants to have the option of chasing you out of your family home if your business doesn't work out, then the best thing to do from the outset is avoid ending up in a situation like this by keeping your business and personal life separate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    a landlord who doesn't understand risk and wants to have the option of chasing you out of your family home
    Knowing a bit as I do about this stuff....this never happens. No court will make an order of sale for an unsecured debt. (A bank gets repossession as they are the first charge on the mortgage loan, above the occupier, and are in fact the real owners until the mortgage loan is redeemed). An order of sale sought by a landlord is pointless on a mortgaged property as the bank gets first dibs on the money-their mortgage loan must be redeemed before the landlord/creditor would get a penny as the bank is the first charge on the mortgage. Also, the courts will have made an installment order on the tenant long before this step, often a token amount of a few dozen euro a month and so long as the debtor tenant maintains these payments, no further action is possible. It is simply not a viable option for landlords to seek what you suggest. Technically possible-practically impossible. Landlords usually just lose out in the real world Darragh, which is why they have reacted with the tightest leases they can produce. At the end of the day though, a tenant can default on their rent an take literall years to eject. Who do you really think the law favours? If the law (both in residential and commercial) was a bit more balanced and defaulting tenants could be ejected in a reasonable timeframe then landlords might be a bit more 'relaxed'.

    This is all a legacy of a reactionary set of judgements made after independence which were made in reaction to british absentee landlords. These mostly don't exist anymore yet the court precedence means landlords are not well protected by law, not nearly as well protected as tenants. Believe me....I am currently down a sum in the tens of thousands from ONE tenant who decided simply not to pay his rent. He is still trading in my premises. The law says I must wait until I get my order for possession before I can just go in and fcuk him out. But if you want to carry on believing that landlords all look like this then carry on...

    evil-landlord-704036.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    murphaph wrote: »
    Knowing a bit as I do about this stuff....this never happens. No court will make an order of sale for an unsecured debt. (A bank gets repossession as they are the first charge on the mortgage loan, above the occupier, and are in fact the real owners until the mortgage loan is redeemed). An order of sale sought by a landlord is pointless on a mortgaged property as the bank gets first dibs on the money-their mortgage loan must be redeemed before the landlord/creditor would get a penny as the bank is the first charge on the mortgage. Also, the courts will have made an installment order on the tenant long before this step, often a token amount of a few dozen euro a month and so long as the debtor tenant maintains these payments, no further action is possible. It is simply not a viable option for landlords to seek what you suggest. Technically possible-practically impossible. Landlords usually just lose out in the real world Darragh, which is why they have reacted with the tightest leases they can produce. At the end of the day though, a tenant can default on their rent an take literall years to eject. Who do you really think the law favours? If the law (both in residential and commercial) was a bit more balanced and defaulting tenants could be ejected in a reasonable timeframe then landlords might be a bit more 'relaxed'.

    Not at all, commerical property prices (and on the same basis, commercial property rents), have been driven sky high by opportunistic investors in recent years. This has all fed into us being uncompetitive as an open economy, and now we are all paying the price for this rampant greed that has been going on in recent years with regard to property acquisition in Ireland.

    You conveniently neglected to mention the fact that someone who gave a personal guarantee can be chased for judgement secured against equity in a personal residence. They can have a judgement made against them that can be enforced at some future date.

    The smart thing to do is research your business plan well and maximise your chances of success and if someone asks you for a personal guarantee, say, "next"...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Not at all, commerical property prices (and on the same basis, commercial property rents), have been driven sky high by opportunistic investors in recent years. This has all fed into us being uncompetitive as an open economy, and now we are all paying the price for this rampant greed that has been going on in recent years with regard to property acquisition in Ireland.
    Property is just a commodity Darragh. You buy, sell lease it like anything else. The only difference is that land cannot be manufactured. Please note that property prices have skyrocketed in places other than Ireland....including Poland where many of our jobs have disappeared to!
    You seem set on blaming landlords for all the ills in irish society and that's you prerogative but it's simply not the case. You never said whether or not you'd ever pushed your margins to a point you didn't really need so I assume you have...like many (most?) businesspeople around the world in the last decade of CREDIT FUELED decadence.
    Darragh29 wrote: »
    You conveniently neglected to mention the fact that someone who gave a personal guarantee can be chased for judgement secured against equity in a personal residence. They can have a judgement made against them that can be enforced at some future date.
    I didn't forget it. I mentioned it in a previous post! It is a wholly different matter to secure judgement against a debtor who wants to walk away from their debt and to "chase that person out of their family home" which is what you suggested is a regular occurence. It's not regular and it in fact never happens. Are you now suggesting that someone should be able to open a business, fail in that business and walk away from the debts that business took on with complete impunity? Do you not feel that leads to wreckless behaviour and poor management? How would you feel if one of your debtors owed you many tens of thousands of euro and they wished to walk away, would you not attempt to secure judgement against them or would you happily go down the tubes with them? If you were a landlord you'd seek personal guarantees too.
    Darragh29 wrote: »
    The smart thing to do is research your business plan well and maximise your chances of success and if someone asks you for a personal guarantee, say, "next"...
    If possible, yes. As Tony says though, in the real world most landlords will seek a personal guarantee and won't deal otherwise, especially as we enter recession. Some landlords with less prominent sites may deal with no personal guarantee if he's had a long void period.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭MrPillowTalk


    Lplated wrote: »
    Not legal advice, BUT - this is wrong, and a very dangerous risk to take.

    The only basis for a court to refuse judgment is if there is a valid defence to the application for judgment, and commercial mishap is not an accepted defence (unless by some miracle it was specifically included as such in the lease/contract).

    You also cannot rely on the landlord not seeking judgment on the basis you don't have large personal wealth - there are some creditors whose policy is to get judgment anyway on the basis that they may enforce it in the future if your situation improved.

    You're only real avenue is negotiation with the landlord. One suggestion may be to get together with other tenants in the Centre and form a kind of 'lobby group' - you may find that the landlord is more open to negotiation when faced with a mass walk out/mass refusal to pay rent or whatever - but this is a 'policitical' rather than legal solution.

    I wasnt offering legal advice only my own personal experience, I have quite a lot of commercial property, on some of it I have personal guarantees and some of it I don't. The main reason for the guarantee is to make a tenant think twice before renaging on the lease terms. If someone walked on a lease and after conducting searches they had assetts sure I would try and recover the debt, however if they had no personal wealth why would I go about spending extortionate ammounts on legal fees (high court costs circa 15k per day before I get the solicitors bill) to secure a judgement that might at some point in the future become exerciseable, it makes no sense.

    People walk on leases all the time, the upshot is the landlord gets stung thats just the nature of the business unfortunately, legally pursuing potless people on personal guarantees is foolish. Even in cases where you secure judgement on say someones private residence its very hard to ever execute as the bank allways have priority charge.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭delllat


    I wasnt offering legal advice only my own personal experience, I have quite a lot of commercial property, on some of it I have personal guarantees and some of it I don't. The main reason for the guarantee is to make a tenant think twice before renaging on the lease terms. If someone walked on a lease and after conducting searches they had assetts sure I would try and recover the debt, however if they had no personal wealth why would I go about spending extortionate ammounts on legal fees (high court costs circa 15k per day before I get the solicitors bill) to secure a judgement that might at some point in the future become exerciseable, it makes no sense.

    People walk on leases all the time, the upshot is the landlord gets stung thats just the nature of the business unfortunately, legally pursuing potless people on personal guarantees is foolish. Even in cases where you secure judgement on say someones private residence its very hard to ever execute as the bank allways have priority charge.

    my sentiments exactly,theres very little anyone can do to you if u havent got anything to get

    and theyre only going to waste more of their own time,money and patience chasing someone who has nothing to chase

    i would suggest to the op to work with the landlord if possible but honestly if you decided right now to stop paying rent and continue trading there theres very little he can do about it in the short term

    he probably knows this already and is just playing hardball but i would call his bluff if he wont agree to negeotiate


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