TK Maxx "flouting planning laws"

Sully

According to WLR FM, An Bord Pleanála has ruled that TK Maxx are "flouting planning laws" and as such the County Council has put an enforcment notice requiring them to step selling everything except clothes. This puts at risk the workforce in TKMaxx as a result of the order.

This will make the whole "pro city center" people very happy to see that the retail park has suffered a major blow. Somebody suggested by text that each retailer who opens outside in the retail park should also open a shop in the city center. Madness imo.

EDIT: I believe that, according to posters, the above is not entirely correct. TKMaxx are not permitted to sell clothes but can sell eveything else (such as household goods and toys).

c - 13

Even if they do suffer enough of a blow and pull out of the retail park whats that going to accomplish though ? Its still not going to entice people back into the city centre magically.

sunnysoutheast

Good.

So, Sully, your argument would be that companies can ignore planning laws, as long as they provide some jobs?

Developments such as this have killed off City centres all over the world. It makes a mockery of having a retail strategy if companies believe they can just ignore it.

SSE

ziedth

I'm truly in the pro-city centre camp but I wouldn't be happy to hear this by any means. Its hard enough to get work in the region at the moment for the poor people working out there.

Will they have to close down because of this and re-apply?

Aquos76

Sully wrote: »

According to WLR FM, An Bord Pleanála has ruled that TK Maxx are "flouting planning laws" and as such the County Council has put an enforcment notice requiring them to step selling everything except clothes. This puts at risk the workforce in TKMaxx as a result of the order.

This will make the whole "pro city center" people very happy to see that the retail park has suffered a major blow. Somebody suggested by text that each retailer who opens outside in the retail park should also open a shop in the city center. Madness imo.

I think you have it the wrong way aroung Sully, The problem is the clothes, they are not allowed to sell them. The planning was for household goods but clothes do not fall into that catorgory.

The enforcement notice is for them to remove all clothing for sale from the store.

Cabaal

TK Max are known for selling discount clothes. what the hell did the council think they'd be selling? Did they think every other TK Max in Ireland and the UK sells clothes but somehow Waterford would be different?

It seems Waterford City is destined to shoot itself everytime there's any bit of progress, sad state of affairs.

sunnysoutheast

Really? They can't sell clothes in that unit??

SSE

kensutz

Cabaal wrote: »

TK Max are known for selling discount clothes. what the hell did the council think they'd be selling? Did they think every other TK Max in Ireland and the UK sells clothes but somehow Waterford would be different?

It seems Waterford City is destined to shoot itself everytime there's any bit of progress, sad state of affairs.

If you read it properly, Sully said that they can't sell anything except clothes. This means mirrors and home appliances. It's a long standing argument which is going on over a few months.

Aquos76

kensutz wrote: »

If you read it properly, Sully said that they can't sell anything except clothes. This means mirrors and home appliances. It's a long standing argument which is going on over a few months.

And if you read my post properly, you will see that Sully has it the wrong way around;)

I think you have it the wrong way aroung Sully, The problem is the clothes, they are not allowed to sell them. The planning was for household goods but clothes do not fall into that catorgory.

The enforcement notice is for them to remove all clothing for sale from the store.

Sully

Waterford wont magically get back to the old days if the retail park dies. Nobody wants to go to a city center where parking is expensive both on street and in City Square. I believe Kilkenny gives at least an hour free parking.

These type of developments, while not in the city center (due to no space and probably fees) are encouraging people to stay local and not go to the likes of Cork, Dublin or Kilkenny. Surrounding areas that do not have these stores are travelling down and are now shopping in Waterford. The city center can not offer these type of stores - so what, we refuse them? The suggestion that they should open two stores is also daft. Right now Waterford offers out of town shopping in addition to in town shopping (which isn't great). This means people will use both rather then going elsewhere that has all of the above.

I thought the planning for this area was daft personally. Waterford needs these stores badly to encourage more people. I'm sure if a bus was provided between the city center and the retail park on a regular basis it would increase activity in the center.

But for now - our city center is dying because of lack of space, enticement, expensive parking and I assume expensive fees. Not because of the retail park which should be designed to go hand in hand with each other.

People are loosing their jobs at a rapid rate in this country in addition to our own local issues and now the council want to enforce a planning law resulting in the store having to either reduce staff or pull out completely. This will have a big blow as people will stop coming here and for all those people who hate the retail park - people will stop going there also. But guess what? You wont see them back in the city center, they will go elsewhere for their shopping.

(Excuse the rant, its just something that has hit a raw nerve)

Sully

Aquos76 wrote: »

And if you read my post properly, you will see that Sully has it the wrong way around;)

Ah ****e. Perhaps so, ill take it that I have. I guess I misheard what the presenter said as I thought it was everything but clothes must go. Thinking about it, the other way around probably makes more sense :P

I think however, my point still stands and probably has more of a point now more then ever. People go out for the discounts, the baragain. Now moreso then ever. Thats the main attraction for TKMaxx and I cant see them trading on without being permitted to sell clothes as then its just another Harvey Normal with less goods.

Planning laws should not be broken, fair point. However, is the planning law itself really appropriate?

Kotek Besar

So which is it, they can sell everything except clothes, or they can sell only clothes?

EDIT: My post crossed with Sully's.

sunnysoutheast

Surely TK Maxx knew of the restrictions before they moved in so this was a calculated risk?

If planning allowed this sort of store in this location it would spell the final death knell for the city centre. They'd all move out.

Interestingly both of the TK Maxx's I've been to in the UK - Liverpool and Kingston - are very busy and in city centres, not out-of-town.

SSE

merlante

What exactly are they allowed to sell? Just clothes? If it's just clothes, then that's pretty much all they have in there.

TKMaxx is a great shop, as I think is the Next in Ardkeen. I find these days that if I'm shopping for clothes I take a walk in the city centre and then I get in the car, go to Ardkeen, then get back in the car, go to Butlerstown, and then back again. That's, what, a 10km round trip in the car, when all of this stuff should be in the city centre? Also a gigantic waste of my time.

The sooner that Newgate shopping centre gets built the better, then the likes of those shops can open in the city centre. It's a bit harsh to punish TKMaxx whilst there are currently no city centre units large enough to accomodate it, but the reality of the matter is that out of town shopping will not only kill the city centre but ultimately make are lives miserable due to the amount of driving we'll have to do, and time we'll have to invest, to compare prices on jackets or jeans or whatever. It's in the consumers best interest to offer the largest amount of choice in a single location.

I think that the council should nearly take a stake in the Newgate centre just to get it off the ground, if such a thing is legal.

Sully

Once again.. the city center died a long time ago, before the opening of these retail parks. I can not see how they "kill" it anyway as it doesnt offer the same stuff as is offered in the town center (TKMaxx being a minor exception).

You get restraunts, cafes, jewlrey shops, clothes shops, shoe shops.. big retailers like Debenhams and Dunness... all in the city center. Might not be much, but the center has more to offer (excluding free parking) then the Retail Park which serves much larger retailers offering a different type of service then can be offerd in the city center.

You get pockets of stores like in Ardkeen and soon to be Ferrybank making life easier for those living around it. No harm with that.

Driving time? Geez its not that bad. A quick spin out a decent road, easy to get parking, easy to get around etc. I think a bus service would be great going to and from as it would make life that bit easier for people and gives a lot more freedom. Problem is, council will loose money as people will park in the Retail Park for free and bus the rest of the way.

noby

Cabaal wrote: »

TK Max are known for selling discount clothes. what the hell did the council think they'd be selling?

To be fair that's not up to the council. They can only go on what's on the planning application.
Hopefully common sense will prevail here, whether that's a retention application, or whatever.

Cabaal

Sully wrote: »

Waterford wont magically get back to the old days if the retail park dies. Nobody wants to go to a city center where parking is expensive both on street and in City Square. I believe Kilkenny gives at least an hour free parking.

Kilkenny gives
2 hours free in Mark Cross if you buy 10e worth in Superquinn,
2 Hours free in McDonaugh Junction if you buy stuff in Dunnes...though think its free for first 2hours in general now

Both places are within 10-15min walking distance and offer a range of shops

I'm sure if a bus was provided between the city center and the retail park on a regular basis it would increase activity in the center.

I'd have to agree with this, at present is only for people with cars full stop

But for now - our city center is dying because of lack of space, enticement, expensive parking and I assume expensive fees. Not because of the retail park which should be designed to go hand in hand with each other.

Agreed, the center of waterford is sadly dying a slow slow death, lack of decent shops, decent [parking, cafes and there is also a percentage of people who are actually just lazy and want the ability to nearly park in a shop as they won't walk short distances

People are loosing their jobs at a rapid rate in this country in addition to our own local issues and now the council want to enforce a planning law resulting in the store having to either reduce staff or pull out completely.

Its nuts when you think about it alright, frankly if they do pull out I don't blame them one bit. A shop should not have to fight to do business in a area

Cabaal

kensutz wrote: »

If you read it properly, Sully said that they can't sell anything except clothes. This means mirrors and home appliances. It's a long standing argument which is going on over a few months.

As already covered, the argument is about clothes

The argument is confirmed by source
http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2008/10/31/story29568.asp

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Once again.. the city center died a long time ago, before the opening of these retail parks. I can not see how they "kill" it anyway as it doesnt offer the same stuff as is offered in the town center (TKMaxx being a minor exception).

You get restraunts, cafes, jewlrey shops, clothes shops, shoe shops.. big retailers like Debenhams and Dunness... all in the city center. Might not be much, but the center has more to offer (excluding free parking) then the Retail Park which serves much larger retailers offering a different type of service then can be offerd in the city center.

You get pockets of stores like in Ardkeen and soon to be Ferrybank making life easier for those living around it. No harm with that.

Driving time? Geez its not that bad. A quick spin out a decent road, easy to get parking, easy to get around etc. I think a bus service would be great going to and from as it would make life that bit easier for people and gives a lot more freedom. Problem is, council will loose money as people will park in the Retail Park for free and bus the rest of the way.

I try hard to remember these halcyon days when the city centre was supposedly 'alive'. It's not thriving, that's for sure, but is it any less busy that anywhere else? Kilkenny looks busy because it is so small and it has no pedestrian area. Kilkenny is a nightmare for shoppers imho, cars everywhere, people nearly falling onto the road off narrow footpaths. Waterford circa 15 years ago.

The parking argument is a red herring. There is always parking in the ALDI in the Glen, for example, but Waterford people have no legs apparently. There probably should be more parking, but lets face it, nobody is going to drive to Kilkenny over a few euros on the meter.

The internationally recognised rule of thumb on out of town shopping is to provide neighbourhood level shops in the suburbs but to keep comparison shopping outlets in the city centre. In our own national strategy, only Dublin was said to be large enough (only just) to support out of town shopping.

This is not a 'save the city centre argument' -- although it's that too -- this is a better choice for consumers, lower costs, lower commutes, denser development, good for the environment, good for the local economy, win win win view. Out of town shopping, sparse development, car dependency, etc., are the opposite. The danger of course is that all you actually see if your free parking space in the suburbs and the traffic in the centre. The leakage from the economy and from our own pockets as a result of the latter policy is invisible. A bit like global warming, which is another very serious thing that nobody gives a damn about.

JLemmon

I think we are forgetting that the likes of Tk Maxx and other big retailers like M&S, HMV etc.. couldn't get spaces in the city centre due to planning objections. So to open here they were forced outside.

Parking is expensive in town but you can walk.
The problem is choice, ever wonder why we have only one big book shop? One or two small music shops? No choice here at all, that what put me off town also it's gone very dirty in parts, i.e ballybricken. Ever see the tree growing out of jumbos takeaway? Really! Broken Xmas decorations, dirty buildings (besco).
It's just not a pleasure.

merlante

JLemmon wrote: »

I think we are forgetting that the likes of Tk Maxx and other big retailers like M&S, HMV etc.. couldn't get spaces in the city centre due to planning objections. So to open here they were forced outside.

Parking is expensive in town but you can walk.
The problem is choice, ever wonder why we have only one big book shop? One or two small music shops? No choice here at all, that what put me off town also it's gone very dirty in parts, i.e ballybricken. Ever see the tree growing out of jumbos takeaway? Really! Broken Xmas decorations, dirty buildings (besco).
It's just not a pleasure.

All good points. I think ultimately, we wouldn't have this thread if TKMaxx, the big Next, M&S, Waterstones, H&M and a few others were in the centre. People would go in and pay the charges and that would be the end of it.

As a matter of interest, what are the parking charges in Galway and Limerick? I understand of course that at the moment you get better value for your money in these places, but the Newgate centre has the potential to right a big wrong.

Cabaal

merlante wrote: »

I try hard to remember these halcyon days when the city centre was supposedly 'alive'. It's not thriving, that's for sure, but is it any less busy that anywhere else? Kilkenny looks busy because it is so small and it has no pedestrian area.

Kilkenny looks busy because it actually is busy, thats clear from looking at numbers in shops and cafes in and around all of Kilkenny, compare Kilkenny on a Saturday v Waterford on a sat its a lot busier in Kilkenny

In addition if you look at the main shopping area in Waterford v Kilkenny there's alot more empty premises if you compare red square area/arundal square to High street in Kilkenny.

Its sad to see it but its been going this way even during the boom years...high rents and poor planning I would imagine

robtri

Cabaal wrote: »

Kilkenny looks busy because it actually is busy, thats clear from looking at numbers in shops and cafes in and around all of Kilkenny, compare Kilkenny on a Saturday v Waterford on a sat its a lot busier in Kilkenny

In addition if you look at the main shopping area in Waterford v Kilkenny there's alot more empty premises if you compare red square area/arundal square to High street in Kilkenny.

Its sad to see it but its been going this way even during the boom years...high rents and poor planning I would imagine

it is sad to see and a lot of it comes down to exactly what you said, high rents and very poor planning,

but is saying that, if TX maxx are in breach of the planning laws, then the appropriate action needs to be made, even if it means closing the store....
just cause you don't like the law doesn't mean you can ignore it.... even if jobs are at stake.....

merlante

Cabaal wrote: »

Kilkenny looks busy because it actually is busy, thats clear from looking at numbers in shops and cafes in and around all of Kilkenny, compare Kilkenny on a Saturday v Waterford on a sat its a lot busier in Kilkenny

In addition if you look at the main shopping area in Waterford v Kilkenny there's alot more empty premises if you compare red square area/arundal square to High street in Kilkenny.

Its sad to see it but its been going this way even during the boom years...high rents and poor planning I would imagine

I really doubt, if we had actual figures to hand, that Kilkenny would be shown to have more shoppers on a Saturday than Waterford. Waterford city centre is much more spread out than Kilkenny, and shoppers aren't confined to narrow footpaths. McDonagh centre doesn't get particularly busy.

Also, a lot of the vacant premises in Waterford are in line for redevelopment, i.e. Egans, parts of Michael st., etc.

I'm not saying that Waterford is thriving, but it's holding its own. If you look at the shops in the centre today versus 5 years ago, there is a marked improvement in quality, at least imho. The rents, rates and planning issues do seem to be major problems though.

meldrew

One of the objectors to the T K Maxx is a well known local property developer and now shopping centre owner who is no stranger to having to apply for retention of planning permission , I seem to recall he was told to knock houses and a wall which are still standing the last time I looked .

durrus

Does it really matter who objected? The fact is that the shop was opened without the correct planning - there is not, to my knowledge, another TKMaxx in the country located in a retail park like the one in Waterford (Dublin excepted - as previously pointed out, it has the population to be able to sustain this exception.) I doubt the store will close but if it does then the grievance of the staff should be with their own management who 'took a flyer' on planning and thought it might not be noticed. We have laws for a reason and they cannot be flouted or overlooked on the basis of jobs - that would just open the floodgates to all kind of 'shyster' operations setting up without correct permissions on the basis that 'We're creating jobs'. TKMaxx is a highly professional global business that should have known better.

Bards

durrus wrote: »

Does it really matter who objected? The fact is that the shop was opened without the correct planning - there is not, to my knowledge, another TKMaxx in the country located in a retail park like the one in Waterford (Dublin excepted - as previously pointed out, it has the population to be able to sustain this exception.) I doubt the store will close but if it does then the grievance of the staff should be with their own management who 'took a flyer' on planning and thought it might not be noticed. We have laws for a reason and they cannot be flouted or overlooked on the basis of jobs - that would just open the floodgates to all kind of 'shyster' operations setting up without correct permissions on the basis that 'We're creating jobs'. TKMaxx is a highly professional global business that should have known better.

They're in a retail park on the outskirts of Tralee

Sully

TKMaxx always claimed that they did not breach planning permissions. Will be interesting to hear their reaction.

Cabaal

Bards wrote: »

They're in a retail park on the outskirts of Tralee

I believe they are also in a retail park just outside Limerick also

Freddie59

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Good.

So, Sully, your argument would be that companies can ignore planning laws, as long as they provide some jobs?

Developments such as this have killed off City centres all over the world. It makes a mockery of having a retail strategy if companies believe they can just ignore it.

SSE

This is almost surreal. You can sell what you like in the City Centre with impunity. Yet try to open a shop on the outskirts and a MAJOR retailer is punished.

What message is this sending out to other retailers considering locating here. We are in the middle of a recession, heading for a depression. AND WE'RE DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT A SHOP CAN SELL CLOTHES.

Moronic, imbecilic, and a host of like words come to mind. We had a Council Of Trade Unions, ably assisted by a member of the Green Party, stifling City Centre development.

Now we're telling people they can't locate on the outskirts either. Way to go lads - way to go. A bunch of clowns.

Freddie59

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Surely TK Maxx knew of the restrictions before they moved in so this was a calculated risk?

If planning allowed this sort of store in this location it would spell the final death knell for the city centre. They'd all move out.

Interestingly both of the TK Maxx's I've been to in the UK - Liverpool and Kingston - are very busy and in city centres, not out-of-town.

SSE

Any TK Maxx in Ireland is usually located in out of town developments in Ireland. Imagine if this attitude (or similar) had been rolled out across the country. No Liffey Valley.....no Blanch....no Dundrum.

http://www.tkmaxx.com/storefinder.php

Freddie59

durrus wrote: »

Does it really matter who objected?

Yes it does. If that objector, hypothetically, turned out to have a vested interest in undermining TK Maxx.

Remember, when Waterford Shopping Centre opened in 1974 it was practically an out of town centre. Short memories indeed.;)

sunnysoutheast

Freddie59 wrote: »

This is almost surreal. You can sell what you like in the City Centre with impunity. Yet try to open a shop on the outskirts and a MAJOR retailer is punished.

What message is this sending out to other retailers considering locating here. We are in the middle of a recession, heading for a depression. AND WE'RE DEBATING WHETHER OR NOT A SHOP CAN SELL CLOTHES.

Moronic, imbecilic, and a host of like words come to mind. We had a Council Of Trade Unions, ably assisted by a member of the Green Party, stifling City Centre development.

Now we're telling people they can't locate on the outskirts either. Way to go lads - way to go. A bunch of clowns.

In Ireland only Dublin, really, has the population to support major out-of-town shopping. The Council is attempting to protect what's left of the city centre by means of its retail strategy. The business case for the Newgate centre will be implicitly connected to this retail strategy - why build it if there will be no tenants as they have all moved out to the suburbs?

I can't believe all this panic over what is simply a discount retailer - they will be interested only in TK Maxx. Remember that many US towns and cities welcomed the arrival of Wal-Mart and their jobs - only to realise later that this was at the cost of their city centres.

SSE

dannydiamond

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

I can't believe all this panic over what is simply a discount retailer - they will be interested only in TK Maxx. Remember that many US towns and cities welcomed the arrival of Wal-Mart and their jobs - only to realise later that this was at the cost of their city centres.

This is about as absurd and irrelevant as comparisons get.

Cabaal

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

I can't believe all this panic over what is simply a discount retailer - they will be interested only in TK Maxx. Remember that many US towns and cities welcomed the arrival of Wal-Mart and their jobs - only to realise later that this was at the cost of their city centres.

SSE

Wal-Mart is one store that became a once stop shop for EVERYTHING, not exactly the same thing

sunnysoutheast

dannydiamond wrote: »

This is about as absurd and irrelevant as comparisons get.

No it isn't. The detrimental impact of out-of-town retail growth on city centres is well known - you can Google it as well as I can. This is exactly the same issue, just on a smaller scale.

I don't have any axe to grind with TK Maxx and I am not a flagbearer for anyone else, I simply want to see a compact city centre busy and thriving. Inappropriate out-of-town car-dependent development is not the way to go about it. Many cities around the world have proved this, but we seem determined not to learn from the mistakes others have made.

Anyway, not much point debating this further until the facts are established one way or the other.

SSE

sunnysoutheast

Cabaal wrote: »

Wal-Mart is one store that became a once stop shop for EVERYTHING, not exactly the same thing

That's true, bad example maybe, but when the stores became an alternative shopping destination to the city centre was when the centre started to die. There was only so much shopping spend to go round.

SSE

AdMMM

Pretty sure I typed this in a thread before but the argument is over the sale of household goods, not clothes. They're allowed sell clothes. Also please lets not jump on the City Council bashing bandwagon as this is a matter that's up to the County Council.

wmpdd3

No I'm afraid your wrong they are not allowed to sell clothing as it would be comparable shopping.

Sully

Had a glimpse at the local papers today. The county council did a vote of no confedence against the board after they refused two developments: Argos and Mother Care. The board claimed the land wasnt zoned correctly (a similar reason they have given in the past about developments in Tramore). They also said they had to act against TKMaxx and will work for a resolution but said it was unlikely.

The objector is your man Noel Frisby who has interests in that shopping center on Paddy Browns. He brought other applications in Butlerstown to the attention of the board also according to the Munster Express.

As for what is/isnt allowed be sold.. Afraid your also mixed up Adam as we all seem to be!

The board, in a ruling issued last week, found that TK Maxx at the Butlerstown Retail Park did not have permission to sell items such as clothes, toys and shoes because they do not meet a "bulky goods" classification.

Council takes action against TK Maxx store over planning contravention
By Ciaran Murphy

WATERFORD County Council has commenced enforcement proceedings against a TK Maxx outlet in Waterford after An Bord Pleanála found it had contravened planning laws.

The board, in a ruling issued last week, found that TK Maxx at the Butlerstown Retail Park did not have permission to sell items such as clothes, toys and shoes because they do not meet a "bulky goods" classification.

Sixty jobs at the store are now under threat, it is feared.

An Bord Pleanála investigated the sale of items at TK Maxx, following a complaint by local developer Noel Frisby, a director of Noel Frisby Construction Ltd who has interests in the Lisduggan Shopping Centre.

The board ruled that TK Maxx, along with a Mothercare outlet that was due to open at the park, contravened planning laws, as outlets at the park can only sell items that are deemed to be "bulky".

A spokeswoman for TK Maxx yesterday said: "We are extremely disappointed by this ruling. It is a very complex situation and we are currently working to find a resolution that will be in the very best interests of our store associates and our customers in Waterford."

Director of services at Waterford County Council, Brian White, said that the council had deemed Mothercare to be within the bulky goods classification.

"We are certainly working out the options with them and are trying to reach some conclusion that will save [those] jobs."

Mr White said the options that are there for TK Maxx were to "defend the case against them in court, to apply for planning permission for retention, or to look for some alternative solution".

However, Waterford’s county councillors expressed anger at the monthly meeting of the local authority on Monday evening and passed a motion of no confidence in An Bord Pleanála.

Waterford county councillor Pat Daly said: "One job is a lot to lose at the moment, but if we can protect, in any way, sixty jobs, it is the duty of all of us here to do it."

The Mayor of Co Waterford Tom Higgins criticised Mr Frisby at the meeting. He asked Mr White: "It is a bit rich, a Kilkenny man coming in, telling us what to do, isn’t it?"

Mr White replied: "Mayor, with respect, any member of the public has a right to insist that the planning regulations are enforced."

Proposals to rezone the land were considered unlikely to succeed.

Cllr John Carey added: "I have the utmost respect for Waterford planning and I think it is high time now that we called for disbanding of An Bord Pleanála because they’re certainly not doing us any favours."

In response Cllr Damian Geoghan said: "If we go along with the proposals [for a vote of no confidence] today, what we are saying is that there should be no appeals process in this country in relation to planning."

A spokesman with An Bord Pleanála yesterday confirmed that it "ruled that TK Maxx does not have the correct planning permission for what it is proposing".

Source: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/idgbmhsngb/rss2/

I agree with the Board. Clothes are hardly "bulky goods". Mothercare is borderline, but they sell clothes aswel as some slightly bulky goods. I think the Board should be doing a vote of no confidence against the council seeing as the problem would seem to lie with them. Seen the same problem in Tramore and similar comments.

j walsh

I know this isn't retail but its still planning laws, but if proper regulations on planning were followed, then there's a lot of work left to be done around the city on estates and private houses with builders long gone that are still not finished yet, now the law is the law and it should always be followed , but not one rule for one and one for another,
Surely they knew what they were going to sell when they applied for plannning orginally and object then rather then now when people could lose there jobs.

robtri

Sully wrote: »

Source: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/idgbmhsngb/rss2/

I agree with the Board. Clothes are hardly "bulky goods". Mothercare is borderline, but they sell clothes aswel as some slightly bulky goods. I think the Board should be doing a vote of no confidence against the council seeing as the problem would seem to lie with them. Seen the same problem in Tramore and similar comments.

how does this become the councils fault, this is soley TK Maxx's fault, you can't blame the council cause TK Maxx didn't read the conditions of opening up in that retail park.....

Sully

robtri wrote: »

how does this become the councils fault, this is soley TK Maxx's fault, you can't blame the council cause TK Maxx didn't read the conditions of opening up in that retail park.....

With regards to other planning applications mainly.

JLemmon

Freddie59 wrote: »

Any TK Maxx in Ireland is usually located in out of town developments in Ireland. Imagine if this attitude (or similar) had been rolled out across the country. No Liffey Valley.....no Blanch....no Dundrum.

http://www.tkmaxx.com/storefinder.php

Yeah I was going to say this, is it only waterford that these planning issues exist?
Take the Mahon point complex in cork, they have everything for sale there, so what's the deal?
How does this affect Next and Tesco, and even Paddy Brownes centre?
Non-bulky planning permission?
They are hardly city centre locations.
All the while the Waterford Retail Park in 6 cross roads sits empty, is this a bulky item only location? If not sure can't TK Maxx, Argos and mothercare jump in there?
Outside of more DIY places there is not many bulky shops, what's bulky about Halfords & Home Focus?

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

Had a glimpse at the local papers today. The county council did a vote of no confedence against the board after they refused two developments: Argos and Mother Care. The board claimed the land wasnt zoned correctly (a similar reason they have given in the past about developments in Tramore). They also said they had to act against TKMaxx and will work for a resolution but said it was unlikely.

The Board doesn't "claim" that the land was zoned incorrectly, the Board points out that the land was zoned incorrectly.

We get this every month from the Councillors whenever Bord Pleanala highlights cock ups that the Councillors made.

We also saw it in Dungarvan last year when they rezoned a piece of land out past the Waterford Crystal Factory. Instead of rezoning a contiguous block of land they leap frogged one farm and rezoned the next farm out the road. If they had rezoned both Farms they would have been uin compliance with the Law, but because they (yet again) did it half-assed, the Department of the Environment overruled them.

We saw it in Tramore with the Aldi decision - the incorrect rezoning was mentioned in the decision.

The Councillors only have three real executive powers, and rezoning is one of them (setting speed limits is another - don't get me started! :roll: ).

They can't honestly blame An Bord Pleanala when it is they themselves who keep making these silly mistakes.

Sully

If they keep making the mistakes, why isnt someone stepping in and putting a stop to this constant stream of problems? Surely the council cant be let make mess up after mess up and expect the voters to push them out during election periods only.

merlante

JLemmon wrote: »

Yeah I was going to say this, is it only waterford that these planning issues exist?
Take the Mahon point complex in cork, they have everything for sale there, so what's the deal?
How does this affect Next and Tesco, and even Paddy Brownes centre?
Non-bulky planning permission?
They are hardly city centre locations.
All the while the Waterford Retail Park in 6 cross roads sits empty, is this a bulky item only location? If not sure can't TK Maxx, Argos and mothercare jump in there?
Outside of more DIY places there is not many bulky shops, what's bulky about Halfords & Home Focus?

Mahon Point and other centres could be the death of Cork city centre yet. These developments encourage urban sprawl. Limerick is in a very precarious situation with almost all new developments being on the outskirts. Limerick city council is impoverished and Limerick city centre is at risk. Those who know Limerick better might be able to say more.

There's no problem with the bulky goods/warehouse stores being outside of town, because they need space and access for vehicles, more than other shops. There's also no problem with supermarkets and neighbourhood facilities, etc. being in the suburbs. But that's all that should be outside of the centre.

TKMaxx would be fantastic, say, where Dunnes are now outside of city square. They would do much better business, and so would all the other shops around. That's how things go when you have a critical mass of comparison retail in a compact area. Consumers get real choice and a much better shopping experience. Obviously, though, there's no space in the city centre at the moment and we are waiting on the Newgate centre.

In my opinion, when the Newgate centre is built, Waterford city centre will be one of the best shopping locations in the country. It'll be as vibrant as any of the other cities but will feature most or all of its retail in one place. This places it at an advantage to most other city locations, where circuitous road trips are increasingly required to hit certain shops on the outskirts. The city council's strategy is a smart one -- surprisingly enlightened actually, coming from a council that are allegedly thinking of postponing the paddy's day parade for the De La Salle game!

Sully

I wouldnt get carried away in thinking Newgate will be the best in the country. I could be wrong, but is it the largest retail space in Ireland for such stores? It also does depend on who moves in there.

mike65

meldrew wrote: »

One of the objectors to the T K Maxx is a well known local property developer and now shopping centre owner who is no stranger to having to apply for retention of planning permission , I seem to recall he was told to knock houses and a wall which are still standing the last time I looked .

That would be Noel Frisby.

http://buckplanning.blogspot.com/2009/03/council-takes-action-against-tk-maxx.html

merlante

Sully wrote: »

I wouldnt get carried away in thinking Newgate will be the best in the country. I could be wrong, but is it the largest retail space in Ireland for such stores? It also does depend on who moves in there.

It won't be the largest centre in the country, that's not really what I'm getting at. It's the fact that you'll have one of the best concentrations on retail in the country. You'll have Newgate centre, City sq., JR sq., and the main streets providing as much choice as you'll find anywhere. Smaller centres can't sustain this level of retail (as Athlone will probably discover) or don't have the town centre space. Larger centres are either opting for out of town shopping or are very busy, like Dublin's Henry st. area.

You could have all your shopping done in an hour and a half (if you were coming from outside of Waterford and doing a lot of shopping), having had as much choice as in any other location, whereas other locations will typically have less choice, be busier and more spread out, or will have retail spread across a few centres, meaning that shoppers don't see everything, get tired more quickly, and spend a lot more time than they want to finding what they want.

But even on its own, the Newgate centre will be big. M&S will definitely come in for starters, hopefully a TKMaxx, a Dixons, a Waterstones, etc., etc. It will be the most attractive location for retailers left in Ireland, because every other promising location was developed, and in many cases over-developed, during the boom. Waterford, however, is the fifth largest centre in the country and is relatively underdeveloped.

Trotter

What are the chances of TK Maxx actually closing their doors in their existing premises?

I enjoy going in there for a little wander, and I'm sick of people telling me I should shop in Waterford city centre in the midst of the smell and rubbish and general 1988 feel to the place. I dislike being in Waterford city centre, so I hope to God the crowd who know better than me about where I should spend my money don't win out and force me to go to town everytime I need a pair of trousers. Going to Waterford city to shop, for me, is a nasty experience.

I hope they leave TK Maxx alone, build more out of town shopping, and clean Waterford city centre up so maybe people might actually want to go there to spend money.