Airsoft Blacklist

captaindanwaldo

Should site owners and retailers use a Blacklist to monitor illegal and detrimental airsoft activity?

I read this post on boards after doing some research on possible ways to prevent the two major problems associated with airsoft from reoccurring.

- Participants refusing to call their hits,

- Participants understandingly attempting to use Illegal AEG’s.

This message was posted on the topic Time for airsoft lovers to take action!

Originally Posted by [DM]-TheDOC-
You knwo I'm one for second chances.

I remember the young lad in the warehouse a few weeks back, was cheating. He was like 15, his first game and maybe he thought " you know if i just dont take this hit, i can win the game for my team"

He was caught cheating, put out in front of everyone, and was sent to sit out.

You could see he was gutted, and you could see he was genuinely upset with his mistake.

The marshalls went over after the game, had a little chat ( little guy was really gutted and sorry) and let him back in. If you shouted " incoming bb" at him, he would have taken a hit. I've seen him since then play, and he has been straight as an arrow. He learned his lesson, and he will be better for it in the long run.

If a blacklist happens.

Step 1:
Player is caught cheating, they are immediatly expelled from the game.
Stept 2:
player is talked to, and warned, allowed back in start up of next game.
Step 3:
If player is caught again, they are tossed from the site, and name is recorded.
Step 4:
This players name is added to the blacklist, viewed by all site owners. This player receives a two weeks site ban.

This entails the player is not allowed to participate in airsoft games for two weeks, on sites of course that agree to the named scheme.
Step 5:
Upon ban lift, player is allowed back in to play, his name still on the blacklist, but listed under some category " back from suspension". This player is verbally warned that a close eye will be kept

Step 6:
Should he/she cheat again, they are expelled from airsoft sites for 3 months.
Step 7:
See step 5
Step 8:
Should player cheat again on his third occasion, he should be ****ing battered, but obviously, in this case, he will be jsut be airsoft site banned indefinetly.

Players who return from a site ban will have a period of 4 weeks to go without incident to be released from the state of "monitored".

Same goes for people caught with hot guns.

I believe that this is the significant step forward in eliminating such problems. I understand that it is all dependent on how alert and how aware site marshals are of such players and that in the end it is the marshal’s call whether a player has been involved in such inappropriate behaviour which would warrant a ban.

Establishing such a system which allows site owners, retailers and marshals to communicate freely among each other would make it much easier to weed out the few but very prominent players and groups who time and time again attempt to break the rules and laws set in place to govern the sport.

In addition to the guidelines above I think that there should be a private forum solely dedicated for the use of site owners, retailers and marshals. This would allow them to post images and further evidence of anyone blacklisted. Also by keeping this forum private I believe there would be a lesser fear of legal action and further reprisals.

Please comment and vote on the above

I believe that this is the significant step forward in eliminating such problems. I understand that it is all dependent on how alert and how aware site marshals are of such players and that in the end it is the marshal’s call whether a player has been involved in such inappropriate behaviour which would warrant a ban.

Establishing such a system which allows site owners, retailers and marshals to communicate freely among each other would make it much easier to weed out the few but very prominent players and groups who time and time again attempt to break the rules and laws set in place to govern the sport.

In addition to the guidelines above I think that there should be, (if one hasnt been established already) a private forum solely dedicated for the use of site owners, retailers and marshals. This would allow them to post images and further evidence of anyone blacklisted. Also by keeping this forum private I believe there would be a lesser fear of legal action and further reprisals.

Please comment and vote on the above

Airsoft Reloded

Fair play for starting this thread captaindanwaldo, The Warehouse and any other venue ran by Airsoft Reloaded will sign up to whatever system is made!

This should deffinitely be done!

senordingdong

For people using illeagal gear then yeah, I think they should be black listed, but if it was enforced on cheaters, I think we'd find the sport crippled.

Stercus Accidit

senordingdong wrote: »

For people using illeagal gear then yeah, I think they should be black listed, but if it was enforced on cheaters, I think we'd find the sport crippled.

Or improved?

I thought the other million page thread was sufficient? If a black list is to be implemented, it needs to be done right, which takes time and effort.

Its up to the site owners etc. to get this done properly, random naming and shaming on forums or banning players based on hearsay leaves alot of people legally liable.

BioHazRd

while i agree on the principle of blacklisting habitual cheaters, the idea of a private forum may be difficult to implement due to data protection act requirements. A private forum will also not protect the respective users from legal action should anyone wish to dispute their presence on the list.
I would let the site owners get together, have their meeting, get their legal advice and then act as they see fit.
As players, all we can do is keep playing honourably and report transgressions to marshalls / site owners and trust them to do the right thing

-PornStar-

Initially it may cripple the sport. But in the long run I reckon people will learn their lesson.

If there is blatant cheating I would rather not play. So it could be argued that airsoft is crippled right now.

If cheating isn't curbed there is a chance airsoft will just turn into a game of long range miniature ping pong. Where is the fun in that?

senordingdong

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Or improved?

I thought the other million page thread was sufficient? If a black list is to be implemented, it needs to be done right, which takes time and effort.

Its up to the site owners etc. to get this done properly, random naming and shaming on forums or banning players based on hearsay leaves alot of people legally liable.

Well yeah, since the majority of people who play are cheaters.

TheDoc

senordingdong wrote: »

Well yeah, since the majority of people who play are cheaters.

I can see your point. It does seem the majority out there are cheaters. But what is happening to the new incoming players. To the new waves of people joining the game.

They can come in and play two ways

A) Like I did. Read this forum in its early conception, read all the noobie stickies and see airsoft is a game about honour, responsibility and trust. That has gone out the window lately, but when I started, I went into the field, on my first day, knowing the rules, and know how to call a hit.

Like what is happening, people turn up for their first day, see lax a daisy chronographing, see loads of people cheating, and think its the norm, everything to win. Then the problem multiplies.

Stercus Accidit

senordingdong wrote: »

Well yeah, since the majority of people who play are cheaters.

My point is if thats the sport that will be crippled, cripple away, I'm not interested in playing with cheaters.

johnboysligo

for consistant cheaters a blacklist is the right way to go and if the cheater is a member of a team blacklist the team aswell.
I can only speak for myself but im never ever going to play on a skirmish site that doesnt have the right equipment right people and right attitude to keep games clean and players inline.

Boo Hoo to the blacklisted players poor you who didnt take your hits didnt follow the game rules or didnt abide by bang kill rules.
Boo Hoo to the skirmish site that cant or wont marshal events properly ill spend my money where im going to get quality service and value for money.
Heaven help the retailers selling hot airsoft equipment cause in my opinion there should be a formal complaint made first to the retailer then the IAA. The IAA should then regularly inform the DOJ on behalf of the customer. No ifs no buts.

Skirmish sites that maintain quality mashaling and proper enforcment of rules should be given an official endorsement from the IAA.

captaindanwaldo

senordingdong wrote: »

For people using illeagal gear then yeah, I think they should be black listed, but if it was enforced on cheaters, I think we'd find the sport crippled.

Even if that were the case Id rather play with 10 hit takers once a month than 1000 non hit takers every week…

BioHazRd wrote: »

As players, all we can do is keep playing honourably and report transgressions to marshalls / site owners and trust them to do the right thing

I believe that we have been doing that for far too long…for alot of us its killing the sport. The system whereby we just continue to play honourably and report any misconduct has been used since the dawn of the sport in Ireland and slowly it just appears to be getting worse, much worse.

Leftyflip

I agree with the system completely, something like this should stamp out cheaters a lot.

Airsoft Reloded

captaindanwaldo wrote: »

I believe that we have been doing that for far too long…for alot of us its killing the sport. The system whereby we just continue to play honourably and report any misconduct has been used since the dawn of the sport in Ireland and slowly it just appears to be getting worse, much worse.

I think Bio was just saying that players should act responsably themselves and let the site owners sort it out. I agree and I think there should be some system to punish site owners seperately!

ED E

What I'd worry about is getting a bad site op(not that I've met one to date). You go to a new site, for reason A SiteOp takes a disliking to you or site ops mate is thinks it would be fun to have you kicked out and then bam, you're in **** with all the sites.

I know it would be less effecient but I would only go for an independant blacklist system, ie each site has its own blacklist comepletely seperate from every other site(bar maybe in the case of AR, as they plan a group of sites AFAIK).

Stercus Accidit

TBH I think something along these lines will happen, but for now I'm only going to play at IAA affiliated sites, whos affiliation depends on their enforcing of the rules. I'll vote with my feet, and money.

fayer

johnboysligo wrote: »

Heaven help the retailers selling hot airsoft equipment cause in my opinion there should be a formal complaint made first to the retailer then the IAA. The IAA should then regularly inform the DOJ on behalf of the customer. No ifs no buts.

The IAA is obliged to report any illegal activity to the authorities. We have been in contact with the DoJ re people selling hot guns, have made reports to them on this topic and will continue to do so.

johnboysligo wrote: »

Skirmish sites that maintain quality mashaling and proper enforcment of rules should be given an official endorsement from the IAA.

They do, their is a list of them on irishairsoft.ie under affiliated venues. IAA affiliated venues are not sites that are making a political statement by affiliating, they are sites that have a submitted to a code of conduct and minimum standards to achieve the title of IAA affiliate. This open to any venue to apply for.

tonyj_mc

Have to say i was there the night when the 15 year old was made sit out a game, i don't understand the desire to cheat esp in games where you have respawns. I'd fully back a blacklist for repeat offenders

Fyr.Fytr

I agree with the concept


Just going on from what doc said, i was the same i read here first and sussed the whole thing out before i even set foot on a site, so i know what the craic was calling hits etc

Most new people dont, they follow on from what they see others doing, if they see cheaters theyll cheat, so if we stamp out the cheaters it leads for better gaming all rounds so be it.



100 honest players once a month -v- 100 cheaters every week, i know which ill choose anyday.

Also may i say credit where its due to the warehouse, top notch, always chronoing even if you play there every week, they "cheater check" from the towers and have a no-nonsense approach to cheathing, all of these methods lead to better gaming.

I havnt seen this type of marshalling on other sites, but then again the odds are in their favor with towers and a smaller area to marshall but theyre spot on.

Airsoft Reloded

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

What I'd worry about is getting a bad site op(not that I've met one to date). You go to a new site, for reason A SiteOp takes a disliking to you or site ops mate is thinks it would be fun to have you kicked out and then bam, you're in **** with all the sites.

I know it would be less effecient but I would only go for an independant blacklist system, ie each site has its own blacklist comepletely seperate from every other site(bar maybe in the case of AR, as they plan a group of sites AFAIK).

Thats well and good but an independent site can't do anything about these issues. Only all sites together can stop it!

Airsoft Reloded

tonyj_mc wrote: »

Have to say i was there the night when the 15 year old was made sit out a game, i don't understand the desire to cheat esp in games where you have respawns. I'd fully back a blacklist for repeat offenders

He didn't cheat for the rest of the day either, if he did it again I would have barred him but sure enough there was no need.

gunner_twotone

Well I think first time offenders = Firing Squad

Second time suspended
Third time expelled

If reported again on a different site, name and shame? Maybe even restrict their buying powers from the retailers?

Sod'o swords

Illegal guns yes.

Cheating, maybe, but not on the same list.

I think it would take away from the seriousness of having hot guns.
I think two lists, although double the work, so it's easy for me to say because i won't have to do any but i think would be the best bet.

Because if you look at it could read.

Mr X banned - Trying to use something classed as a fire arm in a game.
Mr Y banned - Didn't take his hits.

Of course i'm not saying cheating isn't bad, a problem, or that it should be over looked, i'm just saying one is much more important than the other.

Leftyflip

gunner_twotone wrote: »

Well I think first time offenders = Firing Squad

Second time suspended
Third time expelled

If reported again on a different site, name and shame? Maybe even restrict their buying powers from the retailers?

I thought the aim of the blacklist thing was to get rid of the firing squad due to the danger it posessed?
fully open to correction though

tonyj_mc

gunner_twotone wrote: »

Well I think first time offenders = Firing Squad

Second time suspended
Third time expelled

If reported again on a different site, name and shame? Maybe even restrict their buying powers from the retailers?

Really don't like the idea of the firing squad, think it can be stupidly dangerous and bloody sore, esp with more than a few people and it reeks of kids in a playground rather than a muture adut sport. Think we need to get away from looking like big kids, if there is a code of conduct blacklist its an organised way to punish the wrong doers whilst allowing honest players to see something is being done.

Airsoft Reloded

gunner_twotone wrote: »

Well I think first time offenders = Firing Squad

Second time suspended
Third time expelled

If reported again on a different site, name and shame? Maybe even restrict their buying powers from the retailers?

Firing squad is assault. We can't do it!

Lemming

Re cheating; nobody has quantified what counts as required behaviour to end up on any pan-site blacklist. So quantify. One hit not taken? Two? Three? One hit that you 'think' happened?

Remember, if you think you've hit someone and they don't budge ... you've probably not hit them. Further, how do you distinguish a quantifiable metric between an honest mistake vs. wholesale cheating? For example, in Coventry in early Feb; during lunchtime, I ran over to a skip to throw an empty MRE package into it. One of the girls with us decided to shoot me in the back for a laugh with her GBB. I came back and was genuinely perplexed when they asked if I felt "it". I hadn't heard or felt anything. So I went out again and waited for the second shot which did register. It wasn't in-game or anything, but there ye go .... is that enough to be blacklisted?

Personally speaking, I think the sites themselves can judge who is an offender and who is not; who has a reputation for cheating, etc. and who does not.

Regarding overpowered kit, by all means register it. I wouldn't call for a blacklist however since again I - and several others - can attest to the crazy goings-on at GTAC during the first gathering with the chronograph. So ... suddenly you're on a blacklist and barred for no reason other than air density, humitidy, etc. So is that enough to be blacklisted? Unless it's so over powered as to be outrageous e.g. 400fps+ etc., by all means take the player's details and the AEG details in question and circulate it so that the next site they turn up at can pay a little extra attention to the AEG and make sure it's been chrono'd.

I hear all these "BURN HIMMM, BURN HIMMM" suggestions, and no real follow-through on the shortcomings of any suggestions. You run the risk of seriously damaging somebody's reputation and once damaged it's not easily regained if ever. With no apparent comeback on those making the allegations.

And of course, such a system is left wiiiiiiiiide open to abuse by sites and other players. That shot you "think" hit someone as you ducked into cover probably didn't. Yet is that grounds to have someone blacklisted?

Yes I know some of what I've said is probably taken to the slight extreme but as I said, I have yet to see quantified metrics on what would earn someone a place on one of these blacklists.

Leftyflip

If someone manages to get banned from skirmishing from all sites how would we enforce the ban could they not just appear at a site and play? Or would there be an i.d system?

tonyj_mc

With regard to Overpowered, i've had guns chrono over and at no point have i tried to attempt to use them on the day, it meant using the backups, bt i wouldn't consider that a banable / postable offence. If i had tried to sneak the aegs back onto the site and use them i'd understand being banned from site.

With reagrd to not taking hits, anyone can make a mistake or have the bb hit a mag in a pouch but if you are cheater checked and you don't take it thats where the problems come in and it starts to get a bit more serious.

Personally i like the idea in the Warehouse that if you are caught you are taken out of the game and spoken to and its at the discrestion of the owners if you are let back in.

hoplite

Lemming wrote: »

Re cheating; nobody has quantified what counts as required behaviour to end up on any pan-site blacklist. So quantify. One hit not taken? Two? Three? One hit that you 'think' happened?

Well I'll try to respond to this one. The better marshals I have seen at sites will listen to complaints observe whats happening maybe honesty check with a single shot and have a discreet word on the first offense if warranted.

If a discreet word is not enough and the cheating behavior is observed again the player may be asked to sit out a game.

After another incident the player should be sent packing for the day and depending on the players attitude they may warrant a site ban for a period.

I think it needs to be handled sensibly and for the majority of people the discreet word is enough.

If after that you manage to get yourself excluded from a game and ultimately punted from a site the you have made an extra special effort to be an a$$hole for that day.

I'd also suggest that a discreet word is required for the Take Your Fing Hits brigade especially if a Marshal can see that bb's are not hitting the accused. Same sequence should apply to that behaviour including a random honesty check of the most vocal false accusers because shock horror they dont always practice what they preach :eek:

Spetzcong

johnboysligo wrote: »

for consistant cheaters a blacklist is the right way to go and if the cheater is a member of a team blacklist the team aswell.
I can only speak for myself but im never ever going to play on a skirmish site that doesnt have the right equipment right people and right attitude to keep games clean and players inline.

Boo Hoo to the blacklisted players poor you who didnt take your hits didnt follow the game rules or didnt abide by bang kill rules.
Boo Hoo to the skirmish site that cant or wont marshal events properly ill spend my money where im going to get quality service and value for money.
Heaven help the retailers selling hot airsoft equipment cause in my opinion there should be a formal complaint made first to the retailer then the IAA. The IAA should then regularly inform the DOJ on behalf of the customer. No ifs no buts.

Skirmish sites that maintain quality mashaling and proper enforcment of rules should be given an official endorsement from the IAA.

I agree with blacklisting players, I disagree with blacklisting entire teams because of the actions of one of their members, most teams will have their own disciplinary procedures for people who break the rules. One of the points in our team charter (for want of a better word) was that we would never cheat or deliberately use a hot AEG, if my name appeared on the blacklist I'd be booted off the team, I'm pretty sure the same goes for most of the other teams out there. Punish those responsible, not those associated with those responsible.

johnboysligo

Spetzcong wrote: »

I agree with blacklisting players, I disagree with blacklisting entire teams because of the actions of one of their members

My sugestions were mabe under the assumtion that being blacklisted would not be a instant ban from every site using the blacklist but instead serve as a three strikes rule for only the most serious and consistant rule breaking.
get caught once and youll earn a place on the blacklist get caught twice and youll earn a semi-permant ban with fixed time length as per rules broken get caught a third time and your might aswell sell your gear because no site in their right mind would have you back and no player in their right mind would play on a site that would allow you back.

So puting an entire team on a blacklist sure its harsh but if someone on my team decided to behave like a little prick he would have me and everyone he/she/it got blacklisted to answer too.

Lemming

Just wanted to throw in something that I forgot to mention earlier;

As much as we can all argue the academic merits of banning x, y, or z and/or how we'd go about doing it, at the end of the day most of us haven't an authoritive notion of what works best for the individual sites. Only the site-owners and their staff are best placed to make that determination.

So whilst this thread has had some interesting posts, I am conscious of the fact that whatever gets posted is the equivalent of whistling dixie.

johnboysligo

Lemming wrote: »

I am conscious of the fact that whatever gets posted is the equivalent of whistling dixie.

Tell any industry be it service or production that their customers opinions dont matter and youll get laughed out of the room.

Lemming

johnboysligo wrote: »

Tell any industry be it service or production that their customers opinions dont matter and youll get laughed out of the room.

You assume that the customer's opinion is reasonable and/or feasible. But it was good of you to take my comment out of context of the rest of the post. Allow me to reiterate;

Lemming wrote:

As much as we can all argue the academic merits of banning x, y, or z and/or how we'd go about doing it, at the end of the day most of us haven't an authoritive notion of what works best for the individual sites. Only the site-owners and their staff are best placed to make that determination.

Now, you can insist that a business does this or that (and yes, as much as the sites may be run for a love of airsoft, they are also businesses), it is up to them to decide what works best for them. Your demands or suggestions may not be either feasible or legal, or may leave them wide open to litigation at some point (which I believe an out-and-out implementation of a blacklist would do).

As I said before (and I hope I don't have to repeat it again); the sites are the ones best placed to determine what is the best course of action for their site(s) in dealing with contentious issues.

johnboysligo

Lemming wrote: »

You assume that the customer's opinion is reasonable and/or feasible. But it was good of you to take my comment out of context of the rest of the post. Allow me to reiterate;



Now, you can insist that a business does this or that (and yes, as much as the sites may be run for a love of airsoft, they are also businesses), it is up to them to decide what works best for them. Your demands or suggestions may not be either feasible or legal, or may leave them wide open to litigation at some point (which I believe an out-and-out implementation of a blacklist would do).

As I said before (and I hope I don't have to repeat it again); the sites are the ones best placed to determine what is the best course of action for their site(s) in dealing with contentious issues.

bit short of me alright but im not exactly wrong am i.
im not insisting nor am i demanding anything this entire idea of a blacklist could fall appart tomorrow. ill do my talking with my money should such a thing happen.

Lemming

johnboysligo wrote: »

bit short of me alright but im not exactly wrong am i.

Not exactly right either ...

im not insisting nor am i demanding anything this entire idea of a blacklist could fall appart tomorrow. ill do my talking with my money should such a thing happen.

You'll do what? Take your custom elsewhere if a blacklist isn't implemented? If that's so, in other words "Do what I want or else". That's a demand. If the idea of a blacklist falls apart (which I strongly suspect it will on grounds of practicality), I think you'll find yourself running out of places to play rapidly.

captaindanwaldo

My suggestions were maybe under the assumption that being blacklisted would not be an instant ban from every site using the blacklist but instead serve as a three strikes rule for only the most serious and consistent rule breaking.

Also I would suggest that only allowing each site to make one strike against a person would eradicate the fear of inappropriately blacklisting players due to personal grudges, in that respect it takes 3 individual sites to blacklist you to lead to an all out ban.

Also can anyone clarify how “Management Reserves the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone” signs work? And would they be applicable in this situation...

Hivemind187

I've got to agree with Lemming here. I think a lot of this is the usual hysterics we have come to expect in the airsoft community.

You'll notice that there were not too many posts about cheating before last week - now it seems everyone is baying for blood. Might I ask, if boards.ie is the information clearing house for information on airsoft in Ireland and there is a large number of people here who play regularly - none of whom are owning up to being cheaters then who, precisely is doing the cheating?

I personally think that a lot of this "cheaters cheaters cheaters" stuff is ammounting to a witch hunt stirring people up to fever point with phantoms. That and a spoonfull of hipocrisy.

Ttwo weeks abck I was marshalling at HRTA. there was one individual who took it upon himself to start screaming abuse at another player about taking hits. I radioed PK and had him talk to the bloke.

I later caled the guy as hit. His excuse? "Oh, I couldnt feel it on my backpack" and he walked off as though he were utterly vindicated.

EXACTLY the same thing had happened with the individual he was shouting at. BB impacts on something he couldnt feel.

You see where I'm going with this? This "blacklist" is an excuse for a witch-hunt. There is no way to garauntee that innocent people wont wind up on it regardless of how many strikes you add.

It's also a noose around the neck of any venue or retailer involved in it because they are making an accusation against another person which defames them in the eyes of their peers. I dont know how to make this any clearer - it doesnt matter if you are right or not, without the evidence to back it up you are going to lose any case taken before a court.

What, precisely, is wrong with a simple phone call between venue operators mentioning "X, y and z were busted cheating here today, you might want to keep an eye out fr them yourself".

Maybe if people weren't so stupidily ****ing partisan about everything the simple solution might have a chance.

Stercus Accidit

I agree with the above, keeping an eye on a player for a few games if he has been caught in the past, and if he comes back clean, forget about it.

You need some discretion and generally, most sites do this themselves already, its just not yet circulated to others.

If it is, it should be just a "keep an eye on this guy, chrono his gun", and ban on a local basis if they break your rules.


The first guy turned away from a site because "the other guy said you're a cheater" is very capable of taking legal action. How would you feel about not being allowed skirmish based on hearsay, ture or not, it needs backup?

Let alone the fact not everyone in this community is reasonable and above false accusation.

I'd echo the sentiment that people seem to be jumping on the witch hunt bandwagon, sometime boards reminds me of a tabloid paper, anyone else ever feel that way?

The sites will deal with cheaters themselves, or lose business, circulating warnings may be ok, but banning outright without evidence, wont work.

hoplite

Yep I'd agree that probably enough has been said at this point. Strong and consistent marshaling and getting rid of childish firing squads will make me happy.

As I've said in my previous post you'd have to act like an awful ejiit to get excluded from any of the sites I skirmish at and if you did it would be well deserved.

Me parachutes out of this thread

captaindanwaldo

The first guy turned away from a site because "the other guy said you're a cheater" is very capable of taking legal action.

But if he was turned away by staff/management who caught you breeching the rules of the site or affiliated site then would that be the same case? I would never condone a blacklist if every tom, dick and harry could plaster it with names of players they considered to be not calling their hits. I assumed it would only be used in the case where a marshal catches partisipants themselves...

senordingdong

captaindanwaldo wrote: »

Even if that were the case Id rather play with 10 hit takers once a month than 1000 non hit takers every week…

I agree with you in principal, but like all games/hobbies/interests, it needs the 'support' (financial or otherwise) of the masses to survive.

hairball

captaindanwaldo wrote: »

But if he was turned away by staff/management who caught you breeching the rules of the site or affiliated site then would that be the same case? I would never condone a blacklist if every tom, dick and harry could plaster it with names of players they considered to be not calling their hits. I assumed it would only be used in the case where a marshal catches partisipants themselves...

There is no need for anything as dramatic as a blacklist.As has already been said above the threat of sitting out a game or the sheer humiliation of being told to leave the site is enough to quell even the most unruly players.
The site i play/marshall at has instituted these rules and while we've had to ask some players to sit out a game, we've never yet asked anyone to leave the site.

Airsoft Reloded

Lemming wrote: »

You'll do what? Take your custom elsewhere if a blacklist isn't implemented? If that's so, in other words "Do what I want or else". That's a demand. If the idea of a blacklist falls apart (which I strongly suspect it will on grounds of practicality), I think you'll find yourself running out of places to play rapidly.

While I understand that you are just trying to get the point across that the site owners are the ones best placed to do something, I think customers are in the right in saying that I will not attend your site unless I am given assurances that 1, No hot guns are present and 2, you do not allow cheaters on site just to keep the money flowing.

Skirmishers should attend a site knowing that if they make a valid complaint it will be handled and the site owner won't just say ah sure the other lad comes more often (hence more money) so **** it!

You both have valid points, I think the system is workable and needed if not just to reasure our players that we are watching and that we are at least trying our best to stamp out the messing!

Airsoft Reloded

hairball wrote: »

There is no need for anything as dramatic as a blacklist.As has already been said above the threat of sitting out a game or the sheer humiliation of being told to leave the site is enough to quell even the most unruly players.
The site i play/marshall at has instituted these rules and while we've had to ask some players to sit out a game, we've never yet asked anyone to leave the site.

We have asked a lot of people to leave our site at this point and our regulars appreciate it. Obviously there would have to be some sort of built in deterant to stop site owners pushing their own agenda and using this system to settle personall grudges.

We ask people to sit out games first (obviously) but some people don't learn.

This system clearly has enough support, proven by the ther thread and the amount of interested parties in this one. There is only like 5 anti posters here. I have no idea how many are pro!

Spetzcong

Yeah a far better solution than a blacklist would be for more people to give up their own time and marshal, the problem stems from the ratio of marshals to players, in the example Hive gave above a marshal pointed out to the player that he had been hit when he hadn't noticed it himself. Whether people are deliberately cheating because they're dishonest and think they'll get away with it, or whether it's an honest mistake a larger and more high profile marshalling presence will help negate the problem.

If there is to be any sort of blacklist at all, it should be restricted to people who try and use illegal AEGs at skirmishes. Even then I doubt it'd be an easy thing to make actually work.

If everyone here who feels so strongly about the sport being ruined by cheaters were to give up their gaming time and do some marshalling then I bet the problem wouldn't be half as bad as it's currently being made out to be. Personally I'm going to ask about getting a little training in marshalling next time I'm at HRTA and will try to donate at least one days marshalling a month to the airsoft community.

Airsoft Reloded

Spetzcong wrote: »

Yeah a far better solution than a blacklist would be for more people to give up their own time and marshal, the problem stems from the ratio of marshals to players, in the example Hive gave above a marshal pointed out to the player that he had been hit when he hadn't noticed it himself. Whether people are deliberately cheating because they're dishonest and think they'll get away with it, or whether it's an honest mistake a larger and more high profile marshalling presence will help negate the problem.

If there is to be any sort of blacklist at all, it should be restricted to people who try and use illegal AEGs at skirmishes. Even then I doubt it'd be an easy thing to make actually work.

If everyone here who feels so strongly about the sport being ruined by cheaters were to give up their gaming time and do some marshalling then I bet the problem wouldn't be half as bad as it's currently being made out to be. Personally I'm going to ask about getting a little training in marshalling next time I'm at HRTA and will try to donate at least one days marshalling a month to the airsoft community.

Not being smart but the concept that skirmishers will give up their time to marshall (for free, or even for one free game) is an even more unlikely answer than the blacklist system.

Your not going to get many people to do it, maybe for national events yes but not just for Saturday or Sunday skirmishing!

Spetzcong

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

Not being smart but the concept that skirmishers will give up their time to marshall (for free, or even for one free game) is an even more unlikely answer than the blacklist system.

Your not going to get many people to do it, maybe for national events yes but not just for Saturday or Sunday skirmishing!

Given the strength of feeling expressed against cheating in the not one, but two threads we have here on the subject I don't think that it's that implausible that people feel strongly enough about doing something about it to be prepared to give up some of their own time to try and help put a stop to it.

Perhaps you're right though, maybe people only feel strongly about it so long as they don't actually have to do anything about it themselves.

Airsoft Reloded

Spetzcong wrote: »

Given the strength of feeling expressed against cheating in the not one, but two threads we have here on the subject I don't think that it's that implausible that people feel strongly enough about doing something about it to be prepared to give up some of their own time to try and help put a stop to it.

Perhaps you're right though, maybe people only feel strongly about it so long as they don't actually have to do anything about it themselves.

Thats exactly it and sure people shouldn't have to, we the site owners should sort our own problems. We shouldn't be putting that burden on our customers, they just want to skirmish, go home and have some cool stories to tell their mates!

hairball

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

We have asked a lot of people to leave our site at this point and our regulars appreciate it. Obviously there would have to be some sort of built in deterant to stop site owners pushing their own agenda and using this system to settle personall grudges.

We ask people to sit out games first (obviously) but some people don't learn.

This system clearly has enough support, proven by the ther thread and the amount of interested parties in this one. There is only like 5 anti posters here. I have no idea how many are pro!

It's a pity you've encountered so many people you've had to ask to leave the site, but fair play to you for being stringent about it. This is my point though, once the site is doing their job, as you guys clearly are, then why is there a need for a blacklist to control cheating? If a guy gets asked to leave one site and then proceeds to visit another where he again tries to cheat and is then asked to leave that site - well eventually either he gets the message and cops on or simply runs out of sites to play on.
I'm afraid i have to agree with some of the previous posts that pointed out that a blacklist is merely complicating things and/or is prone to be the cause of mistakes/false accusations being made.If all sites are reading off the same sheet infractions -wise, there'll be no need for anything more drastic.

Busta Hyman

this should be extended to people caught in illegal skirmishes