The ELV Debate.

thomond2006

What do ye all think about the introduction of the Exprimental Law Variations into rugby this season? Have they improved/disimproved the game?



The proposed law amendments are:

• At the scrum, all backs except for the two scrum-halves must be at least 5 metres behind the hindmost foot of the scrum, instead of level with it as allowed in the current laws.
• Either side can use as many players as they like in the lineout, at any time, providing they fit between the 5-metre line and the 15-metre line.
• The opposing hooker in a lineout no longer has to stand between the 5-metre line and touchline; he can stand anywhere he wishes as long as he conforms to the laws.
• On a quick throw in the ball can be thrown straight or back towards the defenders' goal line, but not forwards towards the opposition goal line.
• If the ball is passed or run back into the 22 and then kicked out on the full before a tackle, ruck or maul is effected, the resulting lineout is taken from where the kick was made. However, if the kick bounces into touch, the lineout is taken from where the ball went into touch, as in the present laws.
• The maul can be collapsed by defending sides without incurring a penalty if the forward momentum of the attacking side has been neutralised or reversed, subject to maintaining safety.
• The corner flag, currently situated where the try line meets the touchline, will become part of the field of play. Under the current laws, a try is disallowed if a player touches the corner flag while attempting to touch the ball down, because the flag itself is in touch.

IMO, the ELVs have ruined the game, I miss shouting "HEAVE" at maul time. :(

chupacabra

Keep the 5 meters behind the scrum law and dump the rest. Simple as.

Serenity Now!

thomond2006 wrote: »

In any event, players must come into the breakdown in an onside position, and only players who are on their feet are allowed to play the ball. The side that takes the ball into the breakdown loses it if they do not recycle possession

There are no ruck law variations in operation in Northern Hemisphere professional competition.
If you're going to pluck something from a wiki, do some research on the subject afterwards. (clue: check the IRB website first)

thomond2006

Serenity Now! wrote: »

There are no ruck law variations in operation in Northern Hemisphere professional competition.
If you're going to pluck something from a wiki, do some research on the subject afterwards. (clue: check the IRB website first)

Okay, I'll edit it.

outwest

keep 5 metre scrum rule.
an extra front row sub should be added also. a joke how some teams let the probs fake injurys if there getting hammered in a scrum.W*sps are the big sheater in this case.

thomond2006

outwest wrote: »

keep 5 metre scrum rule.
an extra front row sub should be added also. a joke how some teams let the probs fake injurys if there getting hammered in a scrum.W*sps are the big sheater in this case.

Wasps were on the receiving end this year in HEC against Leinster, they were killing the "gouys" in the scrum, two Leinster props then were "unfit to continue" , uncontested scrums follow and Wasps lose their advantage plus SOB comes on, giving Leinster extra pace.

outwest

ya i was delighed it happened cos i remember they did tat a few times in the big games against the tigers. its called karma.

tat why the extra sub is needed.
to stop that from happening.

ScholesyIsGod

Same to happened to Wasps again today against Irish.

Id keep the 5 metre behind the scrum, the quick line out law and the rule that hitting the flag is not being in touch.

Collapsing the maul needs to be penalised again all it means now is that the defending team pulls it straight down and leave more players out in the defensive line, it slows the game down and leads to less trys being scored because the attacking team never gets the chance to draw in the opposition forwards with a good shove and it usually ends up with slow ball coming out.

Chucky the tree

I really hope the EELV's they are using in the Super 14 are rolled out and kept. At first I was spectical but from what I have seen they have been a big help in provinding more attacking play.

toomevara

I can live with them just please, please, please dear god *cries out to heaven* "bring back the Maul!!!!"

In fact is there anyway we can start an online petition to "bring Back the Maul"..any rugby/computer spods out there with the power to make it so....

Serenity Now!

toomevara wrote: »

I can live with them just please, please, please dear god *cries out to heaven* "bring back the Maul!!!!"

In fact is there anyway we can start an online petition to "bring Back the Maul"..any rugby/computer spods out there with the power to make it so....

The maul will end up being a trade-off item, in my opinion. The Northern Hemisphere unions accepting the bulk of the 29 variations in use in the Southern Hemisphere for the return of sanctions for pulling down a maul.

big dan

toomevara wrote: »

I can live with them just please, please, please dear god *cries out to heaven* "bring back the Maul!!!!"

In fact is there anyway we can start an online petition to "bring Back the Maul"..any rugby/computer spods out there with the power to make it so....

Do the IRFU ELV survey.

The extra prop won't happen. The refs need to learn how to ref the scrum properly.

Webbs

After seeing now almost a full season of the new rules I would keep them all. Teams will learn in time how to maul but in a different more fluid fashion.
Was never a big fan of the maul as felt it a negative attacking option, to me rugby is about competing with the ball carrier for the ball, the maul never gave the defending team that option, but that is just a personal opinion

I do like the fact that the ball is kept in play more often and that attacking teams are getting a little more advantage from these rules at scrum time etc.
All this nonsense about the kicking ping-pong being the fault of the ELVs is rubbish as there are no changes to the ruck laws just that they are far more strictly reffed.

big dan

Webbs wrote: »

After seeing now almost a full season of the new rules I would keep them all. Teams will learn in time how to maul but in a different more fluid fashion.
Was never a big fan of the maul as felt it a negative attacking option, to me rugby is about competing with the ball carrier for the ball, the maul never gave the defending team that option, but that is just a personal opinion

I do like the fact that the ball is kept in play more often and that attacking teams are getting a little more advantage from these rules at scrum time etc.
All this nonsense about the kicking ping-pong being the fault of the ELVs is rubbish as there are no changes to the ruck laws just that they are far more strictly reffed.

If the defending team don't join the maul then they can tackle the ball carrier at the back of the maul.

keane2097

I love the new quick lineout rule and they bringing the ball back into your own 22 rule - anything that encourages teams to keep the ball in hand and on the field of play is a good thing imo...

MikeHoncho

Webbs wrote: »

All this nonsense about the kicking ping-pong being the fault of the ELVs is rubbish as there are no changes to the ruck laws just that they are far more strictly reffed.

Declan Kidney says otherwise: http://sixnations.ireland.com/rugbyunion/story/0,25337,1004_4992931,00.html

Blured

Like one of the posters above said - bring back the maul. Personally I think this has been the most disruptive ELV.

Now that you can collapse mauls without penalty - it means that if there is a maul situation, the opposition team does not have to commit the numbers and can fan out in defence, which leads to there being less space out wide leaving teams with not many options - which usually leads to kicking - which in turn leads to the kicking ping pong battles we see in 90% of the games

Chucky the tree

The kicking ping pong game will stop when they bring in the ELV the south hempishpere are using now.

MikeHoncho

MikeHoncho wrote: »

Declan Kidney says otherwise: http://sixnations.ireland.com/rugbyunion/story/0,25337,1004_4992931,00.html

Declan Kidney is right in one aspect but the reason that I listed below is the major reason we see the ping pong.

The reason team do the ping pong thing is because the ruck is now being reffed properly,its not an elv.

This means that attacking teams would rather kick away possetion than risk running the ball and giving away a penalty.

The way to stop this is to get rid of the penalty in this situation and turn it into a free kick,like the super 14 elv's.
This means team will run the ball because if they do give away a penalty then its only a free kick,so they arent getting as punished.


This single rule change would make the Elv's so much better,its so unbelievably stupid they havent brought it in.They simply do not work unless you go the whole hog.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The kicking ping pong game will stop when they bring in the ELV the south hempishpere are using now.

Exactly.

Amabokke

thomond2006 wrote: »

What do ye all think about the introduction of the Exprimental Law Variations into rugby this season? Have they improved/disimproved the game?




The proposed law amendments are:

• At the scrum, all backs except for the two scrum-halves must be at least 5 metres behind the hindmost foot of the scrum, instead of level with it as allowed in the current laws.
• Either side can use as many players as they like in the lineout, at any time, providing they fit between the 5-metre line and the 15-metre line.
• The opposing hooker in a lineout no longer has to stand between the 5-metre line and touchline; he can stand anywhere he wishes as long as he conforms to the laws.
• On a quick throw in the ball can be thrown straight or back towards the defenders' goal line, but not forwards towards the opposition goal line.
• If the ball is passed or run back into the 22 and then kicked out on the full before a tackle, ruck or maul is effected, the resulting lineout is taken from where the kick was made. However, if the kick bounces into touch, the lineout is taken from where the ball went into touch, as in the present laws.
• The maul can be collapsed by defending sides without incurring a penalty if the forward momentum of the attacking side has been neutralised or reversed, subject to maintaining safety.
• The corner flag, currently situated where the try line meets the touchline, will become part of the field of play. Under the current laws, a try is disallowed if a player touches the corner flag while attempting to touch the ball down, because the flag itself is in touch.

IMO, the ELVs have ruined the game, I miss shouting "HEAVE" at maul time. :(

Hi, new poster but long time reader here, rugby player and big springbok and irish supporter


I believe that with every new introduction of rugby laws/changes it always takes a while for new rules to be accepted as its understandable. Therefore it might take another few years before the ELVs will show results.

I for one support it as I believe it is now up to the attacking team to be creative and to create the space. For years everyone complained that defensive rugby is boring especially the way England played in the last few world cups. The IRB then introduced these laws to speed it up so if a teams wants to become the best they would need to adapt and create that space.

I disagree with Kidney - it is not up to the IRB to create the space, it's up to the teams to do that themselves. The problem in NH is that they don't do as much offloading in the tackle and that is something they can change to create the space.

Amabokke

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The kicking ping pong game will stop when they bring in the ELV the south hempishpere are using now.

I remember when the ELVs were introduced in the south and teams in the super 14 played ping pong. It was so frustrating but move forward to now and already you can see teams are now willing to attack and take the risks rather than play it safe.

sm.org

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The kicking ping pong game will stop when they bring in the ELV the south hempishpere are using now.

If they bring that in here I'll stop watching rugby. This years S14's is the worst in living memory. All this free kicks nonsense , its not seven rugby anymore just glorified sevens.

Serenity Now!

sm.org wrote: »

If they bring that in here I'll stop watching rugby. This years S14's is the worst in living memory

No, it most certainly isn't. Its one of the best ever. Running rugby with the setpieces of scrummaging and lineouts without having to keep plucking the ball from row F all the time. If that is the antithesis of what you think of rugby union then by all means, stop watching.

toomevara

sm.org wrote: »

This years S14's is the worst in living memory. All this free kicks nonsense , its not seven rugby anymore just glorified sevens.

I sky plussed a couple of s14 games, watched them recently and I have to say if thats the future of rugby union as the great Sam Goldwyn said "include me out!"...its a structureless free-for all, which despite the fact that it's undeniably fast and frenetic still somehow manages to be deeply unsatisfying and unattractive, and when all is said and done very,very boring....the free-kick, free-for-all is a step too far..it was a bold experiment and I understand the rationale behind it but for me personally it doesn't work..

I'd be happy enough with the NH variant ELV's with the proviso that the rolling maul is rendered un-pulldownable....

If we go down the SH route, I'll abandon union all together and stick to league which does open, fast flowing, exciting rugby well through the structure provided by the set of six...

toomevara

big dan wrote: »

Do the IRFU ELV survey.

The extra prop won't happen. The refs need to learn how to ref the scrum properly.

Thanks big dan but have already done both the IRFU and the RFU ELV surveys....

Amabokke

sm.org wrote: »

If they bring that in here I'll stop watching rugby. This years S14's is the worst in living memory. All this free kicks nonsense , its not seven rugby anymore just glorified sevens.

It depends on what you as a spectator want to get out of a rugby match - in south the supporters enjoy the feast of tries so for us it's not an issue. What exactly do you expect out of a s14 match? 1-2 tries per game, forward mauling? Rugby is about scoring tries otherwise what is the point of playing or watching it.

So far 130 tries have been scored with an average of 4.8 per match with a total of 27 matches.

Amabokke

toomevara wrote: »

I sky plussed a couple of s14 games, watched them recently and I have to say if thats the future of rugby union as the great Sam Goldwyn said "include me out!"...its a structureless free-for all, which despite the fact that it's undeniably fast and frenetic still somehow manages to be deeply unsatisfying and unattractive, and when all is said and done very,very boring....the free-kick, free-for-all is a step too far..it was a bold experiment and I understand the rationale behind it but for me personally it doesn't work..

I'd be happy enough with the NH variant ELV's with the proviso that the rolling maul is rendered un-pulldownable....

If we go down the SH route, I'll abandon union all together and stick to league which does open, fast flowing, exciting rugby well through the structure provided by the set of six...

Not sure I understand why people want to see more scrums, line-outs, etc. just to make rugby a pc game. What do you get out of a maul and pulling down -sounds like you want rugby to become like wrestling?

toomevara

Amabokke wrote: »

Not sure I understand why people want to see more scrums, line-outs, etc. just to make rugby a pc game. What do you get out of a maul and pulling down -sounds like you want rugby to become like wrestling?

I guess its that fantastic mix of skill, speed, aggression, brute strength, tactical thinking and technical excellence which attracts me to rugby...in this respect as a field sport its utterly unique...The rolling maul, when properly executed is a thing of rare beauty and skill and as exciting to me as a well executed back move or a well worked try....the rolling maul is a singular throwback to the roots and tradition of rugby union and as such we dispense with it at our peril.....

I would have thought keeping the rolling maul with its snarling aggression and ferocity would make rugby a less 'pc' game as you so cryptically put it....removing it is a sop to those who want to make rugby as transparently simple to the mong brigade as chav-ball is....nope...you want to watch and appreciate rugby you've got to put some effort in...and that I like,,that obdurate refusal to dumb down to accommodate dimwits who cant be arsed to exercise their brains for five minutes is something I love about rugby.....

sm.org

Serenity Now! wrote: »

No, it most certainly isn't. Its one of the best ever. Running rugby with the setpieces of scrummaging and lineouts without having to keep plucking the ball from row F all the time. If that is the antithesis of what you think of rugby union then by all means, stop watching.

With all honesty you're just obssessed with anything southern hemisphere, good/bad or indifferent.

Amabokke

toomevara wrote: »

I guess its that fantastic mix of skill, speed, aggression, brute strength, tactical thinking and technical excellence which attracts me to rugby...in this respect as a field sport its utterly unique...The rolling maul, when properly executed is a thing of rare beauty and skill and as exciting to me as a well executed back move or a well worked try....the rolling maul is a singular throwback to the roots and tradition of rugby union and as such we dispense with it at our .....

Not too many teams can do that very well so that leaves you with a handfull of teams that can execute it well as well as only their spectators get to enjoy it.

I would have thought keeping the rolling maul with its snarling aggression and ferocity would make rugby a less 'pc' game as you so cryptically put it....removing it is a sop to those who want to make rugby as transparently simple to the mong brigade as chav-ball is....nope...you want to watch and appreciate rugby you've got to put some effort in...and that I like,,that obdurate refusal to dumb down to accommodate dimwits who cant be arsed to exercise their brains for five minutes is something I love about rugby

I don't think any rugby supporter wants it to become transparently simple as you will always have scrums, line-outs some form of mauling, etc. The difference is now that you will have a higher score rate and speed of the game is lifted, which lifts the intensity of watching it for any supporter.

Looking at forwards mauling up for 5 mins before the backling can have a lash at the opposition is hardly excercising your brain, try and see if you can create gaps and score tries is something that will make you think!

Serenity Now!

sm.org wrote: »

With all honesty you're just obssessed with anything southern hemisphere, good/bad or indifferent.

Don't be bloody stupid. What a wholly unqualified, baseless thing to say.

Chucky the tree

toomevara wrote: »

I sky plussed a couple of s14 games, watched them recently and I have to say if thats the future of rugby union as the great Sam Goldwyn said "include me out!"...its a structureless free-for all, which despite the fact that it's undeniably fast and frenetic still somehow manages to be deeply unsatisfying and unattractive, and when all is said and done very,very boring....the free-kick, free-for-all is a step too far..it was a bold experiment and I understand the rationale behind it but for me personally it doesn't work..

I'd be happy enough with the NH variant ELV's with the proviso that the rolling maul is rendered un-pulldownable....

If we go down the SH route, I'll abandon union all together and stick to league which does open, fast flowing, exciting rugby well through the structure provided by the set of six...

You want fast free flowing rugby yet you want to bring the maul back to what it was? Any time a team got a pen they'd either kick the 3 points or kick to touch and just stick up the jumper of the forwards. Watching aobut 16 fast lads touch each up in a sweaty mess isnt my idea of fast free flowing rugby.

The S14 is excellent. The NH kick the ball so often is because they realise how important field position is and now that the refs are stricter and the break down running the ball from deep and risking getting isolated and giving away 3 points just isnt worth the risk so teams punt it down the field. The S14 isnt perfect, but it's definitly the right way to go.

Amabokke

sm.org wrote: »

With all honesty you're just obssessed with anything southern hemisphere, good/bad or indifferent.

I recently saw the thread created by a mod about what they can do to improve this forum. For starters, why does every thread have to turn into an issue about who's right/wrong or better. Why not throwing something constructive back on what you think?

Don't think he meant everything south is good/bad - he responded to Toomevara (who mentioned that this was the worst s14) simply that it was not.

toomevara

Chucky the tree wrote: »

You want fast free flowing rugby yet you want to bring the maul back to what it was? Any time a team got a pen they'd either kick the 3 points or kick to touch and just stick up the jumper of the forwards. Watching aobut 16 fast lads touch each up in a sweaty mess isnt my idea of fast free flowing rugby.

They're not mutually exclusive surely? The rolling-maul as pointed out by amabokke is very diificult to execute...and not easily done,its not as if the game will suddenly transmogrify into rugby circa 1903 with its re-introduction. Surely there's room in the union game for both worlds....? If the likes of BOD are calling for it back as he did in last weekends Observer, you know something's not quite right!

The S14 is excellent. The NH kick the ball so often is because they realise how important field position is and now that the refs are stricter and the break down running the ball from deep and risking getting isolated and giving away 3 points just isnt worth the risk so teams punt it down the field. The S14 isnt perfect, but it's definitly the right way to go.

I'll be honest with you chucky, I've only watched two games this season, so I'll take in a few more, maybe I've got it wrong. I'm definitely open to the suggestion that the reason the ELV's aint working up here is because of a paucity of creative attacking intent given the innately conservative style we play (French and a few notable others here and there excepted)

Chucky the tree

If the new ELV's from the SH are brought in they I wouldnt mind seeing the maul come back.

corny

For me the game ceases to be Rugby Union under the SH ELV's. This obsession with scoring loads of tries in every game is ridiculous. Every bit of 'evidence' i've read that supports the ELV's leads with "1 million tries were scored last weekend in the S14 hurrah"! It's a shame a new game had to be created to let this happen.

They fail to tell you the reason why too? You're getting more tries because big forwards are knackered chasing kicks end to end and are exploited by nippy backs as a result. It's not encouraging attacking play at all. The Warratahs kick the ball more than any NH side i've seen ffs. Aimless stupid kicking too.

I've watched as many S14 games as i could stomach this year and all i see is a game wanting to be Rugby League. After 10 years these rules would destroy Union, the need for fitter and fitter players would push the game into producing 15 number 7's running around with huge workrate trying to play Rugby League with none of the structures League has to help it. Don't kid yourselves lads this would be a new direction and the direction of the game under these rules hasn't even been discussed.

Tactical Kicking would be an obselete skill after a while, lineouts would continue to decrease in importance until eventually the Aussies push for a tap restart instead of a lineout.

If you like try fest tit for tat games of Rugby watch League don't try and turn a game that has stood the test of time into an abomination.

toomevara

corny wrote: »

For me the game ceases to be Rugby Union under the SH ELV's. This obs

If you like try fest tit for tat games of Rugby watch League don't try and turn a game that has stood the test of time into an abomination.

It may be ceasing to resemble Rugby Union, but I can tell you it sure as sh1te ain't anything like Rugby League either!

Its rugby Jim. but not as we know it..almost rugby-lite...

damselnat

toomevara wrote: »

The rolling maul, when properly executed is a thing of rare beauty and skill and as exciting to me as a well executed back move or a well worked try....the rolling maul is a singular throwback to the roots and tradition of rugby union and as such we dispense with it at our peril..........

Eloquently said

toomevara wrote: »

you want to watch and appreciate rugby you've got to put some effort in...and that I like,,that obdurate refusal to dumb down to accommodate dimwits who cant be arsed to exercise their brains for five minutes is something I love about rugby.....

+1

I think the loss of the maul is a nothing short of a tragedy to be frank. Was at an interview with POC recently and I coulnd't have agreed more with him when he said that this is the single worst rule of the ELVs (obviously would be from Munster's point of view, but), and also when he said he thought it would have been far better to bring in all the ELVs and test them as they were designed to be played (ie, together) rather than this half-baked trial of half of them.
I am in favour of a more flowing, less denfense-orientated style of play, but I think, while the ELVs certainly encourage a faster form of play, it is not necessarily more positive. And all this rubbish about the amount of tries scored - for me, at least, rugby is not about how many tries are scored, but how they are scored. I'll take a well-played, low scoring game over a fast but dull try-fest any day, thank you very much!

pucan

corny wrote: »

The Warratahs kick the ball more than any NH side i've seen ffs. Aimless stupid kicking too.

I hope you are not basing that on last Friday?

toomevara

damselnat wrote: »

rugby is not about how many tries are scored, but how they are scored. I'll take a well-played, low scoring game over a fast but dull try-fest any day, thank you very much!

QFT, Nail on the head....and this is where I worry about loosing the soul of the game in an effort to attract fans to the game who's commitment and understanding is shaky at best....let's not chuck the baby out with the bath water...

Beau

All I know is that the game has become less enjoyable to play. I can't really put my finger on it but something isn't quite right, I hate all the kicking thats for sure.

RONOC08

corny wrote: »

If you like try fest tit for tat games of Rugby watch League don't try and turn a game that has stood the test of time into an abomination.

Eww league id hate to see union end up like league I find it boring and lacking any spark or creativity.Personally I dont mind the new ELV's yes itl take a while to get used to but the game will benefit from them overall btw the free kick rule would improve the situation imo

Serenity Now!

RONOC08 wrote: »

Eww league id hate to see union end up like league I find it boring and lacking any spark or creativity

No spark or creativity?? LOL!
How do you think backlines are unlocked in the first place? Which sport has rugby union plucked coaches from to instruct on defending and breaking backlines?

If you're going to slam a sport, try qualifying what you say about it. It might be boring to you but saying RL is uncreative and lacking spark is complete and utter tosh. Try watching State of Origin for a start then stick around for the NRL playoffs or even the British comp, the Challenge Cup.

To be the people who say RU is becoming RL , answer this all-too-often unanswered question: Why do the crowd at a game roar in applause when a team opts for a penalty over the line for a lineout rather than a 3 pointer? Because they want to see trys. They want to see the ball in play.
Teams kicking the ball from end to end has f**k all to do with the ELVs. It is affected by the ruck which, here, is unaffected by any law variations.
Grow some balls, run the thing or take it into contact.

toomevara

Serenity Now! wrote: »

No spark or creativity?? LOL!
How do you think backlines are unlocked in the first place? Which sport has rugby union plucked coaches from to instruct on defending and breaking backlines?

If you're going to slam a sport, try qualifying what you say about it. It might be boring to you but saying RL is uncreative and lacking spark is complete and utter tosh. Try watching State of Origin for a start then stick around for the NRL playoffs or even the British comp, the Challenge Cup.

QFT, just beat me too it, yet another woefully ill-informed and prejudicial anti-league post...sigh, when will people actually watch the sport and make their own mind up instead of parroting idiotic and inaccurate stereotypes...League lacking creativity or spark? Now I've heard it all...most of modern union backplay, defence and attack, is as straight steal from league..(not as well executed of course but hey-ho)

amacachi

toomevara wrote: »

QFT, just beat me too it, yet another woefully ill-informed and prejudicial anti-league post...sigh, when will people actually watch the sport and make their own mind up instead of parroting idiotic and inaccurate stereotypes...League lacking creativity or spark? Now I've heard it all...most of modern union backplay, defence and attack, is as straight steal from league..(not as well executed of course but hey-ho)

Hold on toomevara, you appreciate both codes of Rugby? Looking around here I thought that that wasn't allowed!

The Union I've seen late has been getting on my nerves big time, it's very, very little to do with the rules and all to do with the players and coaches, and partly with the referees.


*EDIT*
The only rules I would like to see introduced would be quicker setting-up of the scrum, sick of waiting 2 minutes and 3 attempts for them to ****ing get set up, less time to hand the ball back once tackled, and stopping players taking the ball from a ruck and then going straight to ground to hold onto the ball and use up time at the end of a match.

Webbs

I had posted earlier that I didnt think the ping pong was a result of the ELVs and was more about refs being strict at the breakdown, but having watched analysis this week (Against the Head, I think) I admit that I was wrong and it looks like one of the big reasons may be down to the 'no pass back into the 22' that may be a big cause of this ping pong, while initially thinking this would keep ball in play longer and result in attacking counter play it has done the opposite.
Also as teams dont want to counter attack and give away a penalty, maybe the rule should be that ruck offences in the 22 carry a penalty and outside that a free kick as in the SH

corny

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Teams kicking the ball from end to end has f**k all to do with the ELVs.

With no threat from the maul these days forwards are effectively flooding midfield closing down space. Getting caught behind the gainline on an all to regular basis for the attacking as a result really isn't an option so teams end up kicking the ball away. Being unable to find a decent touch from your own 22 invariably leads to aimless kicking duals too. Theres 2 situations where the ELV's have had a negative impact.

I'd ask what ELV has actually improved the game (bar the 5 metres at scrum). Not the ideal now the actual practical application of an ELV comparing this year to last year? I know these things are subjective but i can't believe anyone could suggest the game of rugby, as a spectacle, has improved.

Amabokke

We just gonna have to agree to disagree.

Let's face it, the North keeps thinking they're getting wiser and the South IS getting wiser. The gap is just getting bigger. Unless the North comes up with a different game plan, solutions, attacking options for their teams they will always be the underdogs and losers during international matches.

So, can any Northern supporter explain what ELV changes they believe will improve the game here and ensure more winnings over the South - my guess is not much!

Serenity Now!

corny wrote: »

I'd ask what ELV has actually improved the game (bar the 5 metres at scrum). Not the ideal now the actual practical application of an ELV comparing this year to last year? I

Having found the answer, you would then be able to ask yourself the following question:

What affects a game more? Its laws or the tactics employed by its protagonists?

If you say the former then I just give up...:rolleyes:

Serenity Now!

Amabokke wrote: »

We just gonna have to agree to disagree.

Let's face it, the North keeps thinking they're getting wiser and the South IS getting wiser. The gap is just getting bigger. Unless the North comes up with a different game plan, solutions, attacking options for their teams they will always be the underdogs and losers during international matches.

So, can any Northern supporter explain what ELV changes they believe will improve the game here and ensure more winnings over the South - my guess is not much!

Here's what I think will happen:

In March after the 6N is concluded, the unions will convene and review the season so far, compare with that of the S14 so far and draw each of their own conclusions.
In July when they meet up to decide on what to implement, there will be a face-off between the SANZAR (well mainly Aussie, NZ unless a Sth African team does well in the S14) and Pacific Nations.
The SH unions will want the full 29 variations brought in. The NH unions won't but they will want the maul variation quashed.
I reckon a trade-off will ensue. We get the crooked-arm sanctions for naughty deck play at the ruck worldwide but we also get the maul back.

I can't see any variations other than that of the maul being scrapped and I see the NH competitions implementing more from the set of 29 used south of the equator.

Webbs

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I can't see any variations other than that of the maul being scrapped and I see the NH competitions implementing more from the set of 29 used south of the equator.

I think that Ireland, England, Italy and possibly Scotland will want to bring back the Maul, not sure about Wales and France. Though I see a lot of politicking going on behind the scenes for sometime to come