Double standard,football and tv.

cuppa

Just wondering every week there are links put up for football matches in the soccer forum.
Now if someone put up a link for a tv show it would be closed.
Can some one tell me the difference.

rgds
Cuppa

DeVore

Many of the links to the soccer games are legit.

Almost none of the links to tv-shows are legit.

If one of the former is not legit and is brought to the attention of the mods we will remove it.

This thread has a very short life span.

DeV.

cuppa

so sky streams and setana streams are legit

Sherifu

Iraq goals aren't sanctioned by the EPL?

Hobart

cuppa wrote: »

so sky streams and setana streams are legit

I use the streams sometimes, I've never seen one from sky or setanta tbh. I think it's been made clear enough for you, if you have an issue with a post in soccer or elsewhere, report, and the appropriate action will be taken.

Just because something is hopped all over in one forum, it does not necessarily transfer that it will be treated the same way in another. You try talking about how hypocritical the Koran is in Islam is for example, and you'll be (rightly) hopped all over. Try the same in Humanities, and you'll get a different reception.

If you are insinuating that the Mods/Admins might turn a blind eye to something potentially illegal here, your barking up the wrong tree, in fact your not actually barking up a tree, have a look up, it's probably a bus stop.

cuppa

I like watching the soccer streams,I was just wondering whats the difference between a tv stream and a soccer stream.

Hobart

cuppa wrote: »

I like watching the soccer streams,I was just wondering whats the difference between a tv stream and a soccer stream.

DeVore wrote: »

Many of the links to the soccer games are legit.

Almost none of the links to tv-shows are legit.

DeV.

Where are these sky streams and setanta streams? I didn't know setanta did streams tbh.

cuppa

Thats the point they dont do streams.people stream them to the links that are posted.

Spear

cuppa wrote: »

Thats the point they dont do streams.people stream them to the links that are posted.

Setanta do streaming on their own sites. These are the only sites legally permitted to do so. Anyone streaming content from Setanta outside of the official Setanta sites is doing so illegally.

GuanYin

We discussed this last week with the Admins and Boards.ie Overlords (and our resident legal consultant ).

There is no actual legal issue with stream links and many of them are perfectly legitimate in certain regions. There are some that I can watch freely in the US (ESPN shows Champions League online) that you can't in Europe, unless you have an application or proxy. We can't moderate whether people use such issues and we have enough foreign boards.ie members that I don't think it would be right or fair to limit streams to a region.

We do monitor for obvious illegal activity with streaming, but this is a moral decision by boards.ie and not anything that we could get in trouble for.

So yes, we are aware of it, we've made the issue known to the bosses, but soccer streams are not like TV streams in any way in terms of the legality.

Doctor DooM

I know this is none of my business or anything, but isn't an important point here that yes, there ARE double standards between different forums? It might be easy enough for new posters to miss that.

eagle eye

There are legal streams of tv shows for viewers in certain regions such as the BBC Iplayer for UK viewers and the many sites in the US such as NBC and Hulu.
There are also illegal sites.

Its exactly the same as soccer.

GuanYin

eagle eye wrote: »

There are legal streams of tv shows for viewers in certain regions such as the BBC Iplayer for UK viewers and the many sites in the US such as NBC and Hulu.
There are also illegal sites.

Its exactly the same as soccer.

I commend your ability to read and repeat.

eagle eye

GuanYin wrote: »

I commend your ability to read and repeat.

I took your post as only applying to sports.

So yes, we are aware of it, we've made the issue known to the bosses, but soccer streams are not like TV streams in any way in terms of the legality.

I'm saying that there are legal tv streams which is exactly the same thing as soccer.

eagle eye

I contacted a soccer forum moderator 7 days ago regarding my own concerns about the soccer stream links.

I post this for the owners of this site to view and maybe seek further clarification from someone on the legal side.

My personal belief regarding linking directly to a soccer game is that you are on dodgy ground.
I believe that linking to a site that has links on it is safe.

Imo the same applies to tv shows.

I can give examples of what I mean. Dev if you read this and have any questions post here or pm me and I can give you a demonstration of what I mean.

Dont be at yourself

We discussed this last week with the Admins and Boards.ie Overlords (and our resident legal consultant ).

There is no actual legal issue with stream links and many of them are perfectly legitimate in certain regions. There are some that I can watch freely in the US (ESPN shows Champions League online) that you can't in Europe, unless you have an application or proxy. We can't moderate whether people use such issues and we have enough foreign boards.ie members that I don't think it would be right or fair to limit streams to a region.

We do monitor for obvious illegal activity with streaming, but this is a moral decision by boards.ie and not anything that we could get in trouble for.

So yes, we are aware of it, we've made the issue known to the bosses, but soccer streams are not like TV streams in any way in terms of the legality.

To be fair, the links frequently posted on the soccer forum are not to legitimate, legal streams. They are clearly of an illegal nature.

This is dangerous ground for boards.ie. The rights-holders have been taking more and more of a stand on this, and they have been putting sites offline.

GuanYin

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

To be fair, the links frequently posted on the soccer forum are not to legitimate, legal streams. They are clearly of an illegal nature.

This is dangerous ground for boards.ie. The rights-holders have been taking more and more of a stand on this, and they have been putting sites offline.

No, some are. Some are merely geo-locked (I believe the term is) streams redirected. This is not a legal threat to boards.

Again, legal clarity on the issue was sought, we know the score. You think given our other attempts to maintain the soccer forum, we would risk the forum on this?

Ponster

GuanYin wrote: »

Again, legal clarity on the issue was sought, we know the score. You think given our other attempts to maintain the soccer forum, we would risk the forum on this?

Wouldn't it be a good idea to share this legal clarity with the rest of the moderators? I've brought this topic up 3 times over the past 2 years and it's always been avoided without a clear decision being made by staff. If that's changed I'd like to know.

Geo-locked streamling TV shows are against the rules but geo-locked sports channels aren't?

Could you please link to a Boards.ie post where a legal stream is listed? I am unable to tell the difference between legal and illegal in this case.

Doctor DooM

I've asked the ComMas to look into the posting of copyrighted materials for youtube. I'll add a request about steaming footie/ tv too?

EDIT: Just did, can't hurt.

DeVore

There are no definites in the world of law but we have been given very clear assurances that we are not responsible for the legality of what is linked to on Boards. In fact we've known this from the start, we simply CHOSE to limit bittorrents and other links of that nature, simply because I dont believe its a sustainable system of music and media production.

So, we take a "we dont want illegal links here" approach simply from a Good Citizenship point of view. However in certain circumstances I wouldnt have a problem with someone linking something copy-free like How Battlestar Galactica Killed Television (an excellent piece every media manager should watch, the guy is very clever, though its a touch dated now).

So the question becomes one of legitimacy and how we determine it. On review I believe that many of the sports links are legit and ok. Some are obviously NOT and they will be removed. If you are concerned, report the post and it will be reviewed.

This is not really much different its just that Bittorrents are so hard to check and so often illegitimate that we put the burden of proof on the linker. With the sports it seems more common to be legit (notice that rather then using Bittorrent, they stream from sites... a practise which tends to indicate a higher degree of legitimacy).

We do have double, triple and quadruple standards around here. What you can say in AH would get you banned from PI. I dont have a problem with that, I'm a big-boy

But in terms of linking to video i dont see a particular difference here except that we are less suspicious of sports links.

What would be your solution?

DeV.

eagle eye

I personally believe that the following is a much safer route. I have to give examples to make this clear.

You can have a rule saying that no direct links to streams, torrents etc are allowed and still let people have the information required. I hope you are not going to ban me for giving examples here.

At the moment people can do this.

The soccer is on here http://www.justin.tv/feria_tv/popout


Whereas this is a lot different and safer imo.

The soccer is on here http://www.myp2p.eu/broadcast.php?matchid=31960∂=sports


As you can see the first one is providing a direct link to a stream whereas the second one is providing a location where the streaming links are available.

And don't sit there watching Basil now.:)

Fair enough I removed them links.

DeVore

I understand what you are saying but its really semantics. I'm not concerned about the legality of "linking", I'm concerned about the legality of whats LINKED to.

Faulty Towers is copywritten material and so shouldnt be linked to in any manner if we are to be Good Citizens [tm].


It just seems to me that sports links tend to be more commonly legit then say bittorrents.


DeV.

Ponster

DeVore wrote: »

It just seems to me that sports links tend to be more commonly legit then say bittorrents.

I find this very hard to believe. Why would it be more legal for me to broadcast a match from SkySports on justin.tv and link to it here than do the same thing with SkyMovies ?

You're confusing several things here. No one is talking about bittorrents. It's the difference between the way that sports (and poker) streams are allowed while TV isn't.

5starpool

Can we not just leave things as they are and move on to the next topic?

Dont be at yourself

I don't understand, either.

When justin.tv or ustream (or iraqgoals, or any of the dozens of sites linked to in the soccer forum) stream Sky Sports or Setanta or ESPN Asia, they are breaking the law. They don't have any agreements with the right-holders, and the streams aren't 'geo-locked' - they are universally illegal.

Boards.ie linking to them may or may not be illegal. However, I don't really understand why a laisez-faire attitude is taken in regard to soccer streams, while the games/music/film/TV forums have always been extremely heavy-handed in its attitude towards piracy and linking to illegal content. Surely it's a case of in for a penny, in for a pound?

Spear

5starpool wrote: »

Can we not just leave things as they are and move on to the next topic?

Making a decision after some aggrieved copyright holder sues boards.ie isn't going to help anyone, other than line the pockets of some corporate law firm.

Ponster

5starpool wrote: »

Can we not just leave things as they are and move on to the next topic?

I can understand your willingness to put the matter aside as a ban on these type of links would hit the poker forum more than the other sports.

I'd prefer to see it trashed out a little more. Maybe with an example?
I'm not saying I'm for or against and have often posted links to myp2p and explined to others how sopacst/tvants/etc work. But I can't understand how this rule can be one of the rules that applies in one forum (TV) yet not in another (sports).

DeVore

Sorry, perhaps I havent been clear.

If there is a link to something which you consider illegal or copywritten, you should report it.


However, Eircom have been known to advertise over Pokertube.com and they seem perfectly legit and have made arrangements with the rights holders.

If Justin.tv is showing something which is illegal, report it and it will be dealt with.

DeV.

invincibleirish

Most of the soccer links are to games not shown in the UK & Ireland on TV. The rights holders for the territories we live in choose not to show the games.

American Movies & TV will be shown in Ireland, the rights holders do not want anyone to see them.

We just want to watch our team killjoys.

Dont be at yourself

Most of the soccer links are to games not shown in the UK & Ireland on TV. The rights holders for the territories we live in choose not to show the games.

That's of no consequence, really. Rights-holders can do what they want with the rights. Just because they choose not to show them, it doesn't mean it's open season for everybody else.

We just want to watch our team killjoys.

Yeah, great. See also:

We just want to watch a new movie, killjoys.
We just want to listen to the latest albums, killjoys.
We just want to play free videogames, killjoys.

Online streaming of sports may have slipped under the radar in the past, but make no mistake: it is a huge issue now. It has been raised at EU level, and broadcasters like Sky - who pay huge sums for these rights - are going to protect their investment.

5starpool

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Online streaming of sports may have slipped under the radar in the past, but make no mistake: it is a huge issue now. It has been raised at EU level, and broadcasters like Sky - who pay huge sums for these rights - are going to protect their investment.

Yes, but it is a legal issue for the sites hosting them not to the sites linking to it.

There have been 'legal' issues before that cannot be (rightly) discussed on boards, but people have been encouraged to write about it in a blog and link it in their sig. How is that much different?

invincibleirish

Eventually the PL and everyone else will come up with an Itunes for football that is the ultimate solution to this current gap between product offered and wanted. The rightsholders have not kept up with the times.

In the meantime no one loses when people get to see their team play online when they otherwise would not.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Yeah, great. See also:

We just want to watch a new movie, killjoys.
We just want to listen to the latest albums, killjoys.
We just want to play free videogames, killjoys.

Not really applicable, you can buy all those here. There is no facility for people to watch their team if the rights holders are not televising it here. They can watch it on the internet as a substitute.

Spear

5starpool wrote: »

Yes, but it is a legal issue for the sites hosting them not to the sites linking to it.

That was Pirate Bay's defence and they're still looking at the possibility of prison time. If linking to illegal material is tolerated, what's the difference beteen boards.ie and TPB?

5starpool

DeVore wrote: »

There are no definites in the world of law but we have been given very clear assurances that we are not responsible for the legality of what is linked to on Boards.
.
.
.
DeV.

5starpool wrote: »

Yes, but it is a legal issue for the sites hosting them not to the sites linking to it.

Spear wrote: »

That was Pirate Bay's defence and they're still looking at the possibility of prison time. If linking to illegal material is tolerated, what's the difference beteen boards.ie and TPB?

.

Dont be at yourself

5starpool wrote:

Yes, but it is a legal issue for the sites hosting them not to the sites linking to it.

I'm not sure that that has been tested in court. However, numerous sites linking to content hosted on justin.tv or ustream etc have had cease-and-desists from rights-holders.

There have been 'legal' issues before that cannot be (rightly) discussed on boards, but people have been encouraged to write about it in a blog and link it in their sig. How is that much different?

Is it then OK to link to torrent sites and so on? There is a line somewhere, and boards.ie needs to be careful not to overstep it. Better to be over-cautious on an issue like this than not.

The games boards have a zero-tolerance policy on linking or discussing warez. The film and music boards are equally heavy-handed. The TV boards go as far to prohibit the mentioning of .torrent filenames. Why should the soccer forum exist in a bubble?

What benefit does linking to dodgy content bring to boards? If the links are legal, let them stay. If they're linking to illegal streams, then delete the posts. Legally and morally, it's the way to go.

Dont be at yourself

Invincible Irish wrote:

Eventually the PL and everyone else will come up with an Itunes for football that is the ultimate solution to this current gap between product offered and wanted. The rightsholders have not kept up with the times.

Hey, guess what? UEFA, Sky and Setanta do stream football online. But, you know, you have to pay for it. Just like you pay for stuff on iTunes. They're not going to 'wake up' to a business model of spending billions on rights and giving them away to cheapskates on the internet. It's you who needs to wake up.

It's a horribly naive and self-centered view to think that 'oh well, that's how the market's going now, the rights holders need to wake up to it.' The emergence of P2P and bittorrent over the last 5-10 years may have led to people expecting to get everything they want for free. However, companies - and more to the point, the people they employ - rely on money from TV subscriptions, cinema tickets, album sales, videogame sales, TV deals, advertising and so on.

Helix

Spear wrote: »

Setanta do streaming on their own sites. These are the only sites legally permitted to do so.

sky stream sky sports for anyone who has an account with them

invincibleirish

Are they not just streaming their TV channels or are they actually showing all the games?

Mossy Monk

Just their channels.

invincibleirish

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Hey, guess what? UEFA, Sky and Setanta do stream football online. But, you know, you have to pay for it. Just like you pay for stuff on iTunes. They're not going to 'wake up' to a business model of spending billions on rights and giving them away to cheapskates on the internet. It's you who needs to wake up.

Yeah but you can't watch most of the games i want to watch on UEFA, Sky & Setantas website. No domestic broadcaster shows them. In time the clubs & the PL will come up online season tickets.

Dont be at yourself

Yeah but you can't watch most of the games i want to watch on UEFA, Sky & Setantas website. No domestic broadcaster shows them. In time the clubs & the PL will come up online season tickets.

There are reasons why broadcasters don't broadcast every game by every team. For one, the football associations will not allow it - they've been very delicate in managing the impact of TV on attendances at the ground. It would be fantastic if we could buy a 'season ticket' for our favourite team, to watch all their games live. In time broadcasters may move that way.

Until then, however, the answer is not to resort to watching the games illegally. And if that is the solution, at least have the courtesy not to put a website like boards.ie in jeopardy when a simple google-search will throw up the links you're looking for.

redout

The Setanta links are more often than not the United States Setanta and not the the Irish one. Sky Sports links ? not that I have seen.

opr

If someone comes into my kitchen and steals a knife then goes and stabs someone with it. Lets say i didn't lock my kitchen door can i be held responsible in any part for the stabbing ?

Opr

SantryRed

I've seen many Sky Sports links. Loads for the Carling Cup Final last weekend.

I don't understand how boards wouldn't be on dodgy ground. Take the Liverpool game last weekend. That game was available on Setanta Sports 1 and not Setanta Ireland which is the freeview channel on normal NTL.

Instead of people paying subscriptions to watch the game legit, there was many streams put up in that thread. How is that legal?

invincibleirish

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

There are reasons why broadcasters don't broadcast every game by every team. For one, the football associations will not allow it - they've been very delicate in managing the impact of TV on attendances at the ground. It would be fantastic if we could buy a 'season ticket' for our favourite team, to watch all their games live. In time broadcasters may move that way.

Until then, however, the answer is not to resort to watching the games illegally. And if that is the solution, at least have the courtesy not to put a website like boards.ie in jeopardy when a simple google-search will throw up the links you're looking for.

Hang on you're deeming it illegal, not boards. Online season tickets will come in time or similar deals like they have for NFL and the like.

In the meantime i can't see any reason why the practice can't continue, particularly as other sites like you mention have the links, if they can post them then so can boards.

tony1kenobi

opr wrote: »

If someone comes into my kitchen and steals a knife then goes and stabs someone with it. Lets say i didn't lock my kitchen door can i be held responsible in any part for the stabbing ?

Opr

Yes, unless you were uploading live sporting events from television to the internet at the time. Then it's a grey area.

SantryRed

I don't think online season tickets will ever come about for people living in the UK unless it costs more than a season ticket for going to games.

DeVore

Your understand of what is and isnt legal is very relevant if we were living in your head, unfortunately what is and isnt legal in the real world is considerably different to what people "presume". Often to our detriment as a society...

The server which serves the content is the issue here. As I understand it (and I am not a lawyer) the offence occurs when the material is rendered on your screen. Until then its 1s and 0s. (This is certainly how it is for paedophile material).

We are not in any way shape or form involved in the request for the data, nor for the subsequent serving of the data. None of it comes through our servers nor is it stored on our servers nor is it transmitted through our servers. Technically we are simply not involved in the requesting or transmission of copywritten material.

We are not required by law to ensure anything we are linking to is copywritten, we are only required to manage what is stored and transmitted from our servers. At the very most we may have a duty of care not to "aid and abet" but I have made it clear that if anything is brought to our attention as being copywritten, we will act upon it. That however, is a moral/ethical decision which we take. It is not, to the best of my knowledge and our legal advice, a legal requirement.

You could ask this on the Legal Discussion forum if you wanted too, I'm sure they could point you the right way to some further reading.

DeV.
ps: this thread wont see out the night.

joe123

cuppa wrote: »

Just wondering every week there are links put up for football matches in the soccer forum.
Now if someone put up a link for a tv show it would be closed.
Can some one tell me the difference.

rgds
Cuppa

What the hell was the point in making this post?? My god some people :mad:

SantryRed

DeVore wrote: »

We are not in any way shape or form involved in the request for the data, nor for the subsequent serving of the data.

I could be reading this wrong but what if someone leaves a post saying any streams lads? Followed by someone giving them the link. Is that not being involved in the request of data?

Charlie

Threads like these, and the nosey neighbours that occupy them, make me very sad indeed.