Vaccines - Now my daughter won't be getting the vaccine

JonnyMaguire

http://www.naturalnews.com/025760.html

So a drama is created. The government uses reverse psychology on the people. We can't afford a cancer vaccine scheme for all young females. Of course the people cry out.

Well I won't ever willingly take any vaccine, with justification as the link will show.

Quiet Lurker

I am really sorry to see that you are having huge difficulty distinguishing between fact and fiction. Fact is that millions and millions of people are saved annually by immunisations. Come with me tonight and meet the children and adults who are permanently disabled physically and mentally by TB, meningitis, measles and listen to their mothers beg you not to get caught in the trap they did. It's not worth it. James Bond sells books and films but SMERSH is not real.

JonnyMaguire

Quiet Lurker wrote: »

Fact is that millions and millions of people are saved annually by immunisations. Come with me tonight and meet the children and adults who are permanently disabled physically and mentally by TB, meningitis, measles and listen to their mothers beg you not to get caught in the trap they did.

Those people to which you refer, are they living in conditions of poverty??

I assume so, therefore tackle the cause not the effect.

RobFowl

Sorry Johhny but for naturalnews.com read quack central.

Take anything you read there with a truckload of salt

Sleipnir

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Those people to which you refer, are they living in conditions of poverty??

I assume so, therefore tackle the cause not the effect.

Er, not all of them no.

The "cause" of the illnesses mentions is not due to poverty, it's due to an infection. Where you live does not dictate whether or not you are capable of picking up an infection.
Are you saying that the cause of measles is living conditions?

Quiet Lurker

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Those people to which you refer, are they living in conditions of poverty??

I assume so, therefore tackle the cause not the effect.

Not in the slightest at all. Normal people whose children contracted meningitis, TB and measles in the community. Never will live a fully independent life again from being perfect normal toddlers. Some people want to believe quack stuff rather than see the real evidence.

seamus

Poverty doesn't cause sickness, it simply helps it to spread due to poorer sanitary conditions and inability to purchase medicines and vaccines.

JonnyMaguire

Sleipnir wrote: »

Er, not all of them no.

The "cause" of the illnesses mentions is not due to poverty, it's due to an infection. Where you live does not dictate whether or not you are capable of picking up an infection.
Are you saying that the cause of measles is living conditions?

Tell that to those in the second world war. It is the decisive factor. Improved standards of living, clean water, drainage and so on were the factors that reduced disease outbreaks since the early 20th century.

Measles. Now explain this to me. If a virus is continually adapting, as we are told to be the case. How can a vaccine target a virus like this?

Take the flu vaccine. It is given out every year, only to find six months later that it had no effect whatsoever on flu cases.

seamus

Where are you getting the idea that measles is continually adapting?

Besides, many diseases come from a family of virii/bacteria which share similar traits and are therefore susceptible to similar types of antibodies. The most famous of these being smallpox - people were given chickenpox as a vaccine against smallpox. And it was wiped out. So even if a virus is continually adapting, for many people the normal antibodies which they may have had against the ancestor pathogen may work perfectly well against the new one.

Take the flu vaccine. It is given out every year, only to find six months later that it had no effect whatsoever on flu cases.

I don't think they would waste their money if they found out it was useless. You probably mean that six months later some people who had the vaccine contract a new version of the illness. That's flu for you.
Also note that colds and flu are not the same thing. Getting the flu jab before Christmas won't protect you from getting a cold.

ZYX

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Take the flu vaccine. It is given out every year, only to find six months later that it had no effect whatsoever on flu cases.

Flu vaccine works on the flu but not on colds. Most people think flu and cold are the same thing. I have never had flu in my life, neither has my wife, children or siblings. The majority of people on this site have probably never had the flu. Basic symptoms of flu are feeling like death, wishing you were dead, saying things like "I have never been so ill in my life". Flu tends to last 3-4 weeks.

JonnyMaguire

seamus wrote: »

I don't think they would waste their money if they found out it was useless. You probably mean that six months later some people who had the vaccine contract a new version of the illness.

This is big government we are talking about. When did logic ever come into any decision. You remember the voting machines?

http://www.thelocal.se/17956/20090303/

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article730576.ece

Yes that is what I mean. So what is the point of a shot if the virus, being a living organism, adapts to beat the vaccine.

seamus

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

This is big government we are talking about. When did logic ever come into any decision. You remember the voting machines?

You've kind of proven my point. You're trying to suggest that there's something sinister and intelligent behind a mask of lies, when the people who purportedly organised it are incapable of effectively putting some basic systems in place.

Yes that is what I mean. So what is the point of a shot if the virus, being a living organism, adapts to beat the vaccine.

Because Influenza is an exceptionally infectious and vicious illness. It has relatively high fatality rates for children, ill people and the elderly and it's contagiousness means that if left to its own devices, can spread rapidly and kill millions. Like it did back after WWI.
By vaccinating people against the latest strain to have appeared, that risk is mitigated until another strain arises. New strains arise all the time, but people are at most risk coming into winter, which is why the flu vaccine is given out then.

A little light reading, which also effectively details why there's a vaccine every year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza

JonnyMaguire

seamus wrote: »

Because Influenza is an exceptionally infectious and vicious illness. It has relatively high fatality rates for children, ill people and the elderly and it's contagiousness means that if left to its own devices, can spread rapidly and kill millions. Like it did back after WWI.
By vaccinating people against the latest strain to have appeared, that risk is mitigated until another strain arises. New strains arise all the time, but people are at most risk coming into winter, which is why the flu vaccine is given out then.

A little light reading, which also effectively details why there's a vaccine every year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza

Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.

professore

ZYX wrote: »

Flu vaccine works on the flu but not on colds. Most people think flu and cold are the same thing. I have never had flu in my life, neither has my wife, children or siblings. The majority of people on this site have probably never had the flu. Basic symptoms of flu are feeling like death, wishing you were dead, saying things like "I have never been so ill in my life". Flu tends to last 3-4 weeks.

I agree with this. I have had flu once in my life. Couldn't get out of bed for 2 weeks. Glands swollen everywhere, profuse sweating, temperature through the roof. If you tell your friends "I'm dying with the flu" at work then you're not.

professore

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.

Well you just go back to reading entrails and chanting at the moon. Me, I'm going to the doctor if I'm sick and vaccinating my children.

seamus

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.

You have linked two articles:
1. That shows that Sweden bought too much of last year's vaccine. Now it's useless. Shock, horror, that's what adaptation does.

2. The second is 3 years old and talks about an experimental vaccine for an extremely low-incidence version of influenza.

Basically, neither article says anything about the effectiveness of the flu vaccine.

Did you just Google "flu vaccine useless" and post the first two links you found? Did you even read them?

AtomicHorror

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

http://www.naturalnews.com/025760.html

So a drama is created. The government uses reverse psychology on the people. We can't afford a cancer vaccine scheme for all young females. Of course the people cry out.

Well I won't ever willingly take any vaccine, with justification as the link will show.

How exactly can you be sure you can trust that source? Have you looked at the case in detail? Examined the evidence for harm, benefit or conspiracy?

Did you know that there was no possible way for the virus that was used to have ended up in a commercial vaccine? This was a mistake in pre-clinical research. The virus was to be given to ferrets and would never have been in line to enter humans regardless of the results. Not at trial stage, and certainly not on a mass vaccination scale.

Now think about that. If as the article suggests, this was a deliberate attempt at population control then it was a totally retarded one. Far more retarded than some intern mixing up two similar-looking cryo vials. Baxter knew where those samples were headed- to an animal lab. Are they trying to control the population of bred-for-research ferrets? And Baxter knew that a breach like this would be reported widely and damage their reputation. So we're expected to believe that they risked all that to kill a cage full of ferrets.

Although a massive blunder was made by Baxter, not one human was infected. Not one person was harmed. And the only people in harms way were vaccine researchers. The safety protocols at the next level (containment) ensured that and ensured their safety. Should Baxter get off scot-free? Hell no. They clearly need to identify and fix a problem in their viral storage system. They deserve a lot of flak over this. But conspiracy theories help nobody. In fact they result in people not taking medicines that will demonstrably help them.

Now if you want to base your decision about your health or your kids' health on the word of a website so flaky they'd draw such ludicrous conclusions then think you need to seriously reconsider how you go about accepting information. Because it seems like you do it on the basis of authority. Rejecting that of the government and accepting that of those who pose as the rebels. It's never that simple. Search out the evidence for yourself, and leave the scare mongers on both sides to their own devices.

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Tell that to those in the second world war. It is the decisive factor. Improved standards of living, clean water, drainage and so on were the factors that reduced disease outbreaks since the early 20th century.

No, the decisive factor is the presence of the pathogen. That makes the pathogen the cause, poor living conditions an exacerbating factor and widespread disease the effect. You can be as filthy as you like if there are no bugs around. We can't dismiss any of the factors that lead to disease out of hand. Nor do we. Public hygiene matters, but so does a strong immune system and so does the elimination of pathogens. All three are massively interconnected. None should be ignored, including vaccination which tackles two of those factors.

aoibhebree

Shouldn't this be in the conspiracy theories forum? :rolleyes:

AtomicHorror

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.

Please provide the data from a large-scale randomised and placebo-controlled trial which supports that assertion.

ZYX

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.

What links. You have a link to an article about Tamiflu which is not a vaccine. Your other article is about a vaccine for bird flu.

darjeeling

aoibhebree wrote: »

Shouldn't this be in the conspiracy theories forum? :rolleyes:

Yes, only the OP is banned from there on suspicion of re-registering to get round previous bans. Link.

AtomicHorror

aoibhebree wrote: »

Shouldn't this be in the conspiracy theories forum? :rolleyes:

Hell yes. +1 for a move to the asylum.

John

The tin foil hat does nothing!

Quiet Lurker

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.

Anyone who noticed the effects of the flu that hit Ireland and UK at Christmas will assure you that the people who got sick were children and young adults. In general a minority of old people got sick from the flu. This is because of the efficacy of the flu vaccine this year. This is the first time that I have seen such a definitive line of effect.

Please stop ranting with non evidence based posts.

cumhachtnamara

Sleipnir wrote: »

Er, not all of them no.

The "cause" of the illnesses mentions is not due to poverty, it's due to an infection. Where you live does not dictate whether or not you are capable of picking up an infection.

look at all the major areas in the world where there are epidemics, all of them are third world countries. poverty is not the cause of the disease but it is the cause of the epidemics because the people are unable to afford all the fancy new vaccines that we have developed against the diseases. any vaccines that they get are ones that would not be used here under any circumstance. all the methods they have of testing for diseases are so outdated that it is impossible to even classify the strain of a particular virus. so yes, poverty does cause disease

tallaght01

I agree that poverty causes disease. Poverty is one of the biggest causes of ill health worldwide.

Part of the reason for that is poor tertiary hospital based care.

But a huge part of the reason poverty is inextricably linked with disease is because the poor don't get vaccinated.

The flu vaccine changes regularly, as different strains emerge. That's true, but there's nothing you can do about it. You can sit there and whinge about how western vaccines for the flu only work for a year, or you can get the very safe booster.

Measles doesn't really change in terms of the important proteins that are responsible for immunity, so that's not a problem there.

Your articles don't really give any good information one way or the other about the safety or effectiveness of vaccines in the human population. Neither does natural news.

The large scale randomised trials do, though.

Vaccination and good sanitation have been the two most important influences on health improvement in the last 100 years.

You're free to make your own vaccination choices. But remember the danger that your kids will be to pregnant women and babies etc when they get measles, or rubella.

So, if you're going to rely on non-science to make these choices, please do it responsibly.

Capt'n Midnight

Remember the MMR / autism vaccine scare ?

Turns out all the other trials found no link. But lots of money wasted on extra reports and higher insurance costs and legal trials, maybe £15m in the UK alone. As a rough rule of thumb health / road spending is about €1m to save a life...

The medical council in the UK is investigating the people involved in the original report.

Maybe it had to do with £400,000 funding by lawyers, this money came from the the UK legal aid fund so some people may have had to go without free legal aid.

3 people died here in 2,000 because they weren't vaccinated.

There is a slight risk in having a vaccination, but unless the vast majority of the rest of the population have taken the vaccination you are at greater risk by not taking it. Also you are putting others at risk by not having a vaccination. And unless you have been vaccinated you'd be best advised not to go to counties that don't have high levels of vaccination or having any contact with people from those countries.


A simple question to ask your doctor is if their children are vaccinated.

nesf

tallaght01 wrote: »

You're free to make your own vaccination choices.

If there was ever something that people shouldn't be given a choice about...*

That bloody MMR scare meant that I ended up getting Whooping Cough at 5.


*Yes, I appreciate the ethical problems with mandatory vaccinations; however, irresponsible people not vaccinating their children don't just hurt their children.

tallaght01

nesf wrote: »

If there was ever something that people shouldn't be given a choice about...*

That bloody MMR scare meant that I ended up getting Whooping Cough at 5.


*Yes, I appreciate the ethical problems with mandatory vaccinations; however, irresponsible people not vaccinating their children don't just hurt their children.

I didn't say he SHOULD have the right. I said he DOES have the right.

I take your point, but I do have some problems with the concept of forcibly medicating people.

femur61

nesf wrote: »

If there was ever something that people shouldn't be given a choice about...*

That bloody MMR scare meant that I ended up getting Whooping Cough at 5.


Because of the scare my childs son got the measles and then straight away got meningitis, thankfully there was no brain damage but he is completely deaf in one ear. A friend of my husbands has been left with brain damage because of meningitis, and my friends brother died of measeles.

Yes, the indcidence of autism has gone up but mainly because of diagnositcs nowadays, not because of the MMR. How many people (I'm 41) did we have in nationail school that were "a bit slow" that now we know that were autistic.

tallaght01

femur61 wrote: »

nesf wrote: »

If there was ever something that people shouldn't be given a choice about...*

That bloody MMR scare meant that I ended up getting Whooping Cough at 5.


Because of the scare my childs son got the measles and then straight away got meningitis, thankfully there was no brain damage but he is completely deaf in one ear. A friend of my husbands has been left with brain damage because of meningitis, and my friends brother died of measeles.

Yes, the indcidence of autism has gone up but mainly because of diagnositcs nowadays, not because of the MMR. How many people (I'm 41) did we have in nationail school that were "a bit slow" that now we know that were autistic.

Nail on the head, I reckon. I can think of a bloke I went to at school who I'm sure was autistic, but he was just labelled as being weird and slow.

Did your grandson have measles meningitis????????

nesf

tallaght01 wrote: »

I take your point, but I do have some problems with the concept of forcibly medicating people.

Same here but my main problem is that most people aren't in a position to make an informed decision on it since they have no scientific or medical training. For instances where it doesn't adversely effect others, let them choose, but where things like herd immunity is at stake I don't think it's as clear.

Capt'n Midnight

World population in 1900 was 1,650 million.
Smallpox killed 300 million people in the 20th century.

Vaccination has now eradicated smallpox. And no one now needs to be vaccinate against a disease that no longer exists.

Rubella Measles and Mumps are human only diseases, if we vaccinated everyone now then future generations would not need to worry about the disease of the vaccine.

DrIndy

This should be in the conspiracy forum.

eth0_

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

Yeah, and you look at the articles I have linked. The flu vaccine is useless.

You clearly know zip about the flu vaccine. It is not to PREVENT the flu - that would be next to impossible - it is to reduce the severity of the flu, to reduce the number of deaths in the elderly and very young.

norrie rugger

ZYX wrote: »

Flu vaccine works on the flu but not on colds. Most people think flu and cold are the same thing. I have never had flu in my life, neither has my wife, children or siblings. The majority of people on this site have probably never had the flu. Basic symptoms of flu are feeling like death, wishing you were dead, saying things like "I have never been so ill in my life". Flu tends to last 3-4 weeks.

Been there, done that!!!

christ, that was a horrible time.
Sweats, shakes, pain in every joint, could not move. Felt roasting but take the sheets off immediately freezing. I just am glad tha tthe body forgets most pains it has, all I can really remember is the fact that I knew that I was buggered royally

norrie rugger

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

http://www.naturalnews.com/025760.html

So a drama is created. The government uses reverse psychology on the people. We can't afford a cancer vaccine scheme for all young females. Of course the people cry out.

Well I won't ever willingly take any vaccine, with justification as the link will show.

I just love the way that people are willing to listen to some quack with "Real Life" examples.

Of course, Ignore all of us who have dedicated years of our life to reading about, studying, experimenting and, in a lot of cases here, treating viruses.
Ignore proven scientific methods, based on a single paper that has been torn to shreds experimentally.
Lets all go back to chewing leaves, for they are great at healing us. Ignore that we have taken that leaf, examined it, found the healing compound in it and purified it to maximise its potency.
Lets ignore the millions of people saved to date due to Smallpox vaccine (even if I have great reservations, in giving Jennings any admiration).
The millions of people no longer crippled by polio.

Nope, some new age person has "discovered" that crystals bury into subspace to release the "awsome power of the Nth dimension" to heal everything from ingrown toenails to superbugs.

Grow up, read some balanced articles on topics, stop listening to every anti-establishment quack out there and make an informed decision

Mr. Incognito

OP has to be a troll.

How can you counteract thousands of studies, experiences and proven results with two linked articles from notorious conspiracy websites.

Do you even understand with a vacination is? It's a weakened from of the virus that your body can produce antobodies to fight. In effect you are making yourself sick to a weakened infection so that your body has the tools to fight a stronger infection. There are drug companies shipping versions of the avian flu, right now as vacinnations against it. These vacinnations are expensive as they had to research a method of gestating the flu. The normal procedures are to incubate the flu in bird eggs but the avian flu killed them. The breakthrough was genetically modifing the flu so that it did not kill the eggs it was gestating in.

As a parent your paranoia is disturbing, not that you would mistreat your children but in your niavety you actually think that you are protecting them. I implore you to so some research, real research, not on these crazy websites into vacinnations and then google the 1918 avian flu that pretty much wiped out a huge chunk of the worlds population. If you genuinely care about your daughter you will want to do what's best for her.

Capt'n Midnight

Thanks to vaccination Polio is nearly gone

http://www.polioeradication.org/history.asp Holland had cases after places like Haiti , Bolivia eradicated it. Even "failed states" have eradicated polio.

1995
* Cease-fires are negotiated in Afghanistan (for the third consecutive year) to allow children to be immunized during National Immunization Days.

1992 - 1993
* A polio outbreak in the Netherlands, among a group who refuse to be immunized for religious reasons, proves that imported poliovirus still constitutes a threat wherever immunity levels are low.
* The virus spreads to Canada.

1991
* The last indigenous case of polio occurs in the Americas in September. He is a three-year old boy called Luis Fermin Tenorio living in Junin, Northern Peru.

http://www.polioeradication.org/content/general/current_monthly_sitrep.asp

Polio eradication will only succeed if the necessary funds are made available, and with strong political commitment in polio-affected countries. More than 10 million children will be paralysed in the next 40 years if the world fails to capitalize on its >US$5 billion global investment in eradication.

Make that more than 10 million children will be paralysed if we allow people to go un-vaccinated for selfish reasons.


Measles is now gone in the Americas, but ...
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e501a1.htm

Even after elimination of endemic transmission in 2000, imported measles has continued to create a substantial U.S. public health burden; of the 501 measles cases reported during 2000--2007, one in four patients was hospitalized, and one in 250 died.

Thus far in 2008, five U.S. residents and five visitors have been documented as acquiring measles abroad. Of these 10 persons, nine acquired measles in the WHO European Region.

Dr Galen

anyone else notice the increase in quackery we've had on here lately?

nesf

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

OP has to be a troll.

No unfortunately there are people out there that have faith against all reasonable argument. It's an annoying facet of human nature to say the least.

sam34

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

anyone else notice the increase in quackery we've had on here lately?

they usually disappear once their links are shown to be rubbish and they are asked for proper proof.

if people can back up their claims with reliable, validated evidence, then i think its great to see this place becoming more diverse.

however, when its just snake oil bulls**t, i think they should be sent packing.

samson09

JonnyMaguire wrote: »

http://www.naturalnews.com/025760.html

So a drama is created. The government uses reverse psychology on the people. We can't afford a cancer vaccine scheme for all young females. Of course the people cry out.

Well I won't ever willingly take any vaccine, with justification as the link will show.

Jonny,

I know you are right and I know how it feels like your banging your head against a brick wall. You have to remember that people have been literally brainwashed into believing everything that they are told by doctors, scientists and even government. It is beyond some people (especially older people) to change how they view the world around them. All you can do is try and show people the truth, if they cant see it thats not your fault.

You can lead a horse to water....

taram

samson09 wrote: »

Jonny,

I know you are right and I know how it feels like your banging your head against a brick wall. You have to remember that people have been literally brainwashed into believing everything that they are told by doctors, scientists and even government. It is beyond some people (especially older people) to change how they view the world around them. All you can do is try and show people the truth, if they cant see it thats not your fault.

You can lead a horse to water....

Well I'm not old, I'm 23. I believe what I've seen with my own eyes, and if the science is reproduced by reputable sources in reputable journals, I'll believe it too, as it can be reproduced by myself if I had the training and money, therefore the truth. Can the quack science say that? Would bet everything on a no. Government I'm skeptical of, and rightly so though

People can believe what the hell they want, but if your child gave my sister (unable to vaccinated) measles because you refused to immunise your child due to a dodgy webpage saying not to and she was seriously damaged or killed by it, I honestly don't know what I'd do due to my anger. Vaccinations don't affect one person, they affect everyone that person is in contact with.

Dig a tiny bit into anyone's history and they'll say how one of the many diseases we have vaccines for affected their family or friends when they weren't vaccinated. Worse I had as a child was chicken pox, and I'm grateful for it.

samson09

taram wrote: »

Well I'm not old, I'm 23. I believe what I've seen with my own eyes, and if the science is reproduced by reputable sources in reputable journals, I'll believe it too, as it can be reproduced by myself if I had the training and money, therefore the truth. Can the quack science say that? Would bet everything on a no. Government I'm skeptical of, and rightly so though

People can believe what the hell they want, but if your child gave my sister (unable to vaccinated) measles because you refused to immunise your child due to a dodgy webpage saying not to and she was seriously damaged or killed by it, I honestly don't know what I'd do due to my anger. Vaccinations don't affect one person, they affect everyone that person is in contact with.

Dig a tiny bit into anyone's history and they'll say how one of the many diseases we have vaccines for affected their family or friends when they weren't vaccinated. Worse I had as a child was chicken pox, and I'm grateful for it.

You obviously have no idea what is happening now do you? Could you even consider for one moment that you are wrong? I dont have to time argue with you, so keep believing whatever you want. No skin off my nose buddy.

taram

samson09 wrote: »

You obviously have no idea what is happening now do you? Could you even consider for one moment that you are wrong? I dont have to time argue with you, so keep believing whatever you want. No skin off my nose buddy.

I am often wrong, so can consider that quite easily. But what exactly is happening that the world at large is ignorant to? Hmm?

samson09

taram wrote: »

I am often wrong, so can consider that quite easily. But what exactly is happening that the world at large is ignorant to? Hmm?

We are being lied to since the day we were born. Ok, I know you think this is B.S. but just hold on for a second. To illustrate my argument, consider what happened in New York On Sep.11. Bin Laden arranged for planes to fly into World Trade Centre right? Hold that thought and now go to you tube and search for the following: Zeitgeist 9/11.

Unless you are totally incapable of indepenent thought you will see where this is going. Well?

sam34

conspiracy theories is that way

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>

sam34

samson09 wrote: »

I dont have to time argue with you, so keep believing whatever you want. No skin off my nose buddy.

excellent argument, btw :rolleyes:

taram

samson09 wrote: »

We are being lied to since the day we were born. Ok, I know you think this is B.S. but just hold on for a second. To illustrate my argument, consider what happened in New York On Sep.11. Bin Laden arranged for planes to fly into World Trade Centre right? Hold that thought and now go to you tube and search for the following: Zeitgeist 9/11.

Unless you are totally incapable of indepenent thought you will see where this is going. Well?

I've read a good bit about that, and am highly suspicious about the US government's actions, but already declared my skepticism for the government 4 posts ago But I saw your post on cervical cancer vaccines and I don't agree with mandatory vaccination for that, I do for those diseases that would be rampant all over society on and off if not for vaccination. The science is there to see how it affects those who get it, and those who don't, you can recreate those results, and see the proof for yourself. I used to immunise oranges (long story) and the difference in the crops was frightening, just one infected orange being accidently left into a untreated batch often meant the batch was wiped out. Now apply this to my own health and the health of those I love, I'll pick tried and proven vaccinations.

norrie rugger

ok 11/9 (I hate the American way of dates) has raised its ugly head and Zeitgeist has been mentioned.

Really would hope that this thread is deleted/locked or moved to the quack forum.

All of us with Science and Medical backgrounds are part of Da Man. We are brainwashing the ignorant public. Regardless of the fact that we all are vaccinated and have/intend to have our kids vaccinated.