Looking For Landscape / Garden Design

hardly work'n

We have been trying to find the right Landscape Designer / Garden Designer. We tried onlinetradesman and pick a pro without much joy. Have rung around locally but they start at €200 for a site consultation that is before they even sit down at the computer to design anything. Then the drawings are between €500-€800 plus your vat! So a €1000, for some drawings. That's before we even plant a plant. We looked at quite a few portfolios & they all looked the same with little veriation from designer to designer.

So we were thinking maybe a student would be the way to go. That brings us too. Does anyone know a student of landscape design / arctiture or garden design? It's a fairly large garden & we want something a bit different & funky so there is a lot of freedom.

Kashkai

We've a half acre of garden to landscape too and we've been trying to get a landscaper for the past 12 months but no joy. Most of the landscapers we rang never bother to show up (75% or so), and the majority of those who do actually show up are not true landscapers, i.e. they ask you what you have in mind and then price accordingly without even offering alternative ideas/suggestions - imo these guys are just pavers who'll lay your patio without taking the planting aspect into account. This is ok if you are sure of what you want but if you want someone to give you fresh ideas and draft a design that encompasses the paving, planting, water feature, lighting etc and tie it in to your house/garden's size/scale and orientation, then a true landscaper is the only way to go. I suppose its like building a house, you can either get an architect designed home (i.e. landscaper) or you can pick a plan out of a book and hand it to a builder to follow (i.e. paver).

We've only managed to actually meet one true landscaper and while we liked his ideas, he was just outside what we could afford and so we are still searching for someone who'll give us what we want while being within our budget. Remember you'll probably be looking at this paving/planting for a good few years and if you try to cut corners now, you'll be annoyed every time you look at it over the coming years while wondering what could have been. BTW, our neighbour paid €1,000 to a garden designer to draft a plan for the whole garden and then brought in a paver to do the hard landscaping only. She wants to do the planting herself.

Sonnenblumen

hardly work'n wrote: »

We have been trying to find the right Landscape Designer / Garden Designer. We tried onlinetradesman and pick a pro without much joy. Have rung around locally but they start at €200 for a site consultation that is before they even sit down at the computer to design anything. Then the drawings are between €500-€800 plus your vat! So a €1000, for some drawings. That's before we even plant a plant. We looked at quite a few portfolios & they all looked the same with little veriation from designer to designer.

So we were thinking maybe a student would be the way to go. That brings us too. Does anyone know a student of landscape design / arctiture or garden design? It's a fairly large garden & we want something a bit different & funky so there is a lot of freedom.

I think your research is flawed, hence your disappointment. You should probably try google to identify better sources ie professional sites.

€ 1,000 for a garden design would in my estimates good value, but not if you don't like it. Onus on you is to do your homework, I would be very surprised to learn of anyone claiming to be a professional willing to do speculative design.

Aspirations and affordability are frequently in conflict, reducing professional levels to drive costs downs will have implications for project scope and quality of end results.

hardly work'n

I have googled & googled looked at "professional" sites. And I have done my research. Looked at portfolios, which all look very similar. I still do think €1000 is dear for just your drawings. I could understand if that included the site visit/survey & costings. One thing that I have noticed when you say you are doing the work yourself & are not looking for them to "project manage" your garden, again the price can jump!

We were thinking of a student for a couple of reasons, fresh ideas is the major one, cost is another. Plus, to give someone a chance. We have already picked out certian design ideas that we like & ones we do not like. And yes we are looking into years down the line for a garden that we can enjoy & use. But if your not happy with who designs it, then you will never be happy with it. Plus I don't want to waste my time or anyone elses on designs that I don't like.

hardly work'n

[quote=Sonnenblumen;59318957

Aspirations and affordability are frequently in conflict, reducing professional levels to drive costs downs will have implications for project scope and quality of end results.[/quote]

Aspirations & Affordability are not in conflict here. Finding a Decent landscape designer is what we are looking to do! Wether it be student or professional. All I was saying is for €1000 we were not getting value for money.

Sonnenblumen

hardly work'n wrote: »

I have googled & googled looked at "professional" sites. And I have done my research. Looked at portfolios, which all look very similar. I still do think €1000 is dear for just your drawings. I could understand if that included the site visit/survey & costings. One thing that I have noticed when you say you are doing the work yourself & are not looking for them to "project manage" your garden, again the price can jump!

We were thinking of a student for a couple of reasons, fresh ideas is the major one, cost is another. Plus, to give someone a chance. We have already picked out certian design ideas that we like & ones we do not like. And yes we are looking into years down the line for a garden that we can enjoy & use. But if your not happy with who designs it, then you will never be happy with it. Plus I don't want to waste my time or anyone elses on designs that I don't like.

You make very valid points and one in particular is an old chestnut, whereby clients are not overly happy with paying one person for the design (many garden designers do not build) but paying someone else to build and managing all the various elements therein or sometimes retaining the original designer on a retainer to provide client with a project management service. The latter approach involves the client paying more and projects potentially taking longer to complete. The design stage will most likely involve producing working drawings which is also expensive but required in order for a Third Party to implement according to plan. The extra costs which burden the client are generated in order to facilitate additional PM discussions etc.

A much more cost effective and time efficient approach would be to consult with a company which offers both design & build services and during the design stage it should be possible to determine what level of detail is required for implementation and simultaneously identify cost savings which may be better spent on implementation than producing over engineered drawings?

In your instance as you wish to do some/most of the build, I would still recommend you talk with a company who has good experience of both designing and building. You may believe that a student might offer fresh thinking (I would largely disagree) but the same student more likely has little experience and first hand knowledge of implementation. There are many testimonies around of poor design but probably more of poor execution.

An experienced designer/landscaper ensures that at least from an industry standard perspective the final design can be implemented and at the very least taht there will be no 'design' surprises/shocks during the implementation stages(s).

Finally, without knowledge of site, conditions and probable design direction, it is difficult to say whether a design fee of a € 1,000 is expensive. One could expect little below €500 +, so you might have to review your design fee expectations? Finally, I agree there is absolutely no reason why design fees should increase simply because the client is prepared to do build without any PM input. I would be very suspicious of any designers seeking extra costs from client simply because the project is 'ring fenced' for design only. Such individuals are not being professional.

More research!!

Zack21

Il be honest snice i turned 16 i've been working with the owner of model garden centre, which is also does landscaping. Over the year's while working with him he's done some really great designs on gardens. At the moment we've put together a small website with some basic information, but at the moment im hoping to put more pictures of landscaping jobs that we've done in the past. As i said thow the man that i work for has great ideas for gardens and especially gardens the suit the need of the owner.

If you want some information look at snippity, but as i said we've only got the website up and running so there's hardly any information about landscaping until i get set up and finished college for the summer

well worth a call thow and for any other queries don't hesitate to ask

The Sweeper

Zack, please be aware that self promotion and advertising are against the rules on boards.ie. You cannot promote your business through this site. Hence I've snipped the website - feel free to continue to contribute to the forum, but less of the business name-dropping please.

old boy

take a look at the b.b.c. gardening website, you can do a design on your p.c. then look at other gardening websites that offer similar services. then you can design your own, buy your plants, plant your own, its away more satisfying, a hell of a lot cheaper too. also why not visit some gardens, take their ideas home with you. the garden should be an expression of you, not some bland thing someone put togeather to take your money.

Sonnenblumen

old boy wrote: »

take a look at the b.b.c. gardening website, you can do a design on your p.c. then look at other gardening websites that offer similar services. then you can design your own, buy your plants, plant your own, its away more satisfying, a hell of a lot cheaper too. also why not visit some gardens, take their ideas home with you. the garden should be an expression of you, not some bland thing someone put togeather to take your money.

Do you need a torchlamp?

hardly work'n

old boy wrote: »

take a look at the b.b.c. gardening website, you can do a design on your p.c. then look at other gardening websites that offer similar services. then you can design your own, buy your plants, plant your own, its away more satisfying, a hell of a lot cheaper too. also why not visit some gardens, take their ideas home with you. the garden should be an expression of you, not some bland thing someone put togeather to take your money.

Had a look at that. It's good fun. Did a really rough mock up so far & called into our local garden centre & got some really great advice on different plants we could use. We have already got the outdoor kitchen layed out with string & are fiddling around with that & have started picking out plants & patterns to put them in.

Ellechim

One of the Irish gardening magazines (not the Dermot O'Neill one) has a write in and ask for a design service - where you write in with photos and state what you're looking for and they come back with a design and planting schemes.

Also, shows like Bloom have design forums where you can come with sketches/photos and they will give you advice on how good it is.....at least they did the last two years, but you had to book in advance.

Diarmuid Gavin's book on garden design is really good to.

The thing about having a funky design is that at the end of the day you want to create an extension of your house where you can sit have a glass of wine, eat breakfast/lunch/dinner/read a book, etc.

Think about a seating/dining area where it gets the morning sun, and where it gets the evening sun.

Think about structures you like: a fountain, pond, a pergola, windbreaks, maybe you want to erect a hammock or a playhouse. Perhaps a mirrored wall, a fake wall, gating, fencing, a mosaic feature, sundial.......

In terms of planting schemes, the crocus and bakker websites give you suggestions of borders for spring/summer etc....

Think about planting some trees: creating a small orchard (buy one of each of self pollinating apple and pear, etc): make sure to put in some evergreens otherwise you will have a barren landscape.

Get some good gardening books and scour them.....

Also, visit the NAtional Garden Exhibition centre - it has lots of fab gardens and will give you the ideas (they also give you a brochure with plans of all the gardens) it's in Kilquade just off the N11, http://www.gardenexhibition.ie/ - I just had a look, they have a 'meet the designers' day on 4th April......

Do you know anyone who has a 'good eye' - sometimes these people can come up with unusual ideas......

I do find it's much more fun planning and trying these ideas yourself.......

Best of luck and enjoy....

Ellechim

Moderator - I'm not affiliated to any of these things by the way! Just things I've found useful..........

monke

hi
how are you, i am currently studying landscape design and done a few gardens and the clients have been very happy. if you are still looking you can [PM me for my email address] .

old boy

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Do you need a torchlamp?

elaborate please.

old boy

hardly work'n wrote: »

Had a look at that. It's good fun. Did a really rough mock up so far & called into our local garden centre & got some really great advice on different plants we could use. We have already got the outdoor kitchen layed out with string & are fiddling around with that & have started picking out plants & patterns to put them in.

plus if you are not happy with the placement of plants you can move them in the autumn or next spring
also the markets and car boot car boot sales are usually cheaper for plants, also fetes etc always have plants not readily advailable, and the expert knowlage of the stall owner is always free,
cottage garden plants are only euro 3.50 in my neck of the woods, make a border with them they flower year after year, and fill out really well.
amazon .co.uk has many easy to read gardening books for beginers from about euro 2.00 upwards.
look up a edwardian gardener, a ms jekyll her first name escapes me.

monke

whats with the torchlamp?

Sonnenblumen

monke wrote: »

whats with the torchlamp?

You're studying landscape design and wondering 'what's with the torchlamp'?
Are you still looking?

monke

yes i am studying design,finished in july. have no idea what you are on about though?
maybe you could elaborate

aka_Ciaran

hardly work'n wrote: »

We have been trying to find the right Landscape Designer / Garden Designer. We tried onlinetradesman and pick a pro without much joy. Have rung around locally but they start at €200 for a site consultation that is before they even sit down at the computer to design anything. Then the drawings are between €500-€800 plus your vat! So a €1000, for some drawings. That's before we even plant a plant. We looked at quite a few portfolios & they all looked the same with little veriation from designer to designer.

So we were thinking maybe a student would be the way to go. That brings us too. Does anyone know a student of landscape design / arctiture or garden design? It's a fairly large garden & we want something a bit different & funky so there is a lot of freedom.

Hi OP, I'm in the same boat. Want to get the garden sorted but it seems to be costly to get a landscape gardener and then builders/pavers etc in. If you find anyone good or an alternative way of doing things I'd be interested in finding out some details....cheers

Sonnenblumen

aka_Ciaran wrote: »

Hi OP, I'm in the same boat. Want to get the garden sorted but it seems to be costly to get a landscape gardener and then builders/pavers etc in. If you find anyone good or an alternative way of doing things I'd be interested in finding out some details....cheers

A more cost effective way would be to hire a landscape designer who also provides construction services, ie a specialist deisgn & build co. At this point you'll probably have difficulty finding a suitable landscaper with any spare capacity before the summer.

Sonnenblumen

Itsmepaulo wrote: »

Try these guys, they are very helpful, and if they cant do what you want they will make sure you are sorted. They designed my garden. they do great work and it only cost me 300 euro for a 3d design. Ask for paul
www.outdoor_living.ie
regards

According to the info on that website, they are 'retailers' and no references whatsoever to landscape design.

If anyone is seeking professional garden design & construction, there is really only one site providing details of relevant professionals throughout Ireland and that is: www.alci.ie

All ALCI (Association of Landscape Contractors of Ireland) members are vetted, professional service providers, legitimate business operators with all the necessary Employer & Public Liability insurances in place (all checked annually).

There is no reason why anyone should have any problems trying to locate a professional landscaper within their local area.

We are also alci members but are not available for any new projects.

aka_Ciaran

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

There is no reason why anyone should have any problems trying to locate a professional landscaper within their local area.

We are also alci members but are not available for any new projects.

Of course there's no problem getting a professional landscaper, but you're missing the point. The gist of this thread and one I also posted in a similar vein is that professional landscapers are too expensive. What we want is someone that will do a job for a reasonable price i.e. maybe a student / trainee etc. If you look back at the first message in this thread you'll see what the OP was quoted and that all the quotes they got were too expensive.

Sonnenblumen

aka_Ciaran wrote: »

Of course there's no problem getting a professional landscaper, but you're missing the point. The gist of this thread and one I also posted in a similar vein is that professional landscapers are too expensive. What we want is someone that will do a job for a reasonable price i.e. maybe a student / trainee etc. If you look back at the first message in this thread you'll see what the OP was quoted and that all the quotes they got were too expensive.

Hold your horses there a minute, this thread was well developed on a number of points before you entered the discussion. So sorry, I am aware from the outset what the points are and there are several, including cost of design/drawings, landscaping costs, using a student for 'fresh thinking' (whatever that means) etc etc . You think 'landscaping' is expensive, well so what, landscaping is not for everyone, most people accept that professional services cost more and you would certainly expect to get more from a professional service provider. Your case is another angle, you're looking for a reasonable price, and implicit in your analysis is that professional landscapers are not reasonable! Which is a different point entirely on 'the value for money' or 'affordability. So are you looking for a 'reasonable' job but not done by a landscaper?


Finally how will you know a good job from a bad job, if your only criteria is what it might cost? Be better to just grow a lawn.

aka_Ciaran

The thread was started on one point, the OP getting quotes from various landscape designers that were too expensive, close to 1000 euro just for drawings, and I happen to agree. You stating that 'There is no reason why anyone should have any problems trying to locate a professional landscaper within their local area' is irrelevant and misses the point completely. I'm thinking a good designer should come up with a design in one full day, so a grand for a days work?? You also told the OP that his research was flawed and he needed to do more, but he has done quite a lot from what I can see.

You seem to think a student would be incapable of fresh thinking and unable to do a good job...I'm sure there are quite a few that would disagree. Students in all disciplines are usually at the forefront of their chosen field so 'fresh thinking' means exactly that...coming up with new ideas and new ways of doing things. Someone that has been in the game for a long period of time might be unwilling or unable to adapt to new techniques and ideas.

So if landscaping isn't for everyone, is it just for the rich? If it were cheaper then maybe more people would avail of it. You're right, I don't think professional landscapers are reasonable...1000 euro for some drawings is very unreasonable in my opinion, and the opinion of friends and others I have discussed the high costs of landscapers with. It's not different to 'value for money' - 1000 euro for a days work isn't value for money in my book. I'm looking for a good job done for a good price, whether that be a seasoned professional or a student starting off their career.

I think it's important to help students and those starting out on their careers, especially the way the economy is now, and in return I would hope to get a good job done for a lower cost than those expensive professionals who seem to charge huge amounts for very little.

Sonnenblumen

If you're right you'll have no problem finding a solution? A design costing €1,000.00 might appear expensive, I've no idea of the site and reqs. Do a design in 1 day, yes very possible. But are you confusing drawing time with production.?An experienced designer might define the design in a 'few hours'
but is going to charge more than the 'few hours' input. There is nothing wrong in charging for experience and ability, and to look at the clock only is wrong.

But many professionals have charge outs > € 1,000.00/day. Bob the Plaster would be €500.00+ /day, PR consultants charge € 165.00+/hour, and on and on....

Many gardens can be designed for < € 1,000.00 but looking for value in 'Mickey Mouse' sites is what I meant by a flawed approach.

You have a very narrow interpretation of what is value and relating creativity to age/lack of experience is simply silly and naieve.

That's why many gardens are so poorly, people have failed to grasp the difference between value and cost. In a way your comments remind me of dentistry, every dentist aspires to eliminate tooth decay. But you will hear people whingeing about dental costs, some vote with their feet, and are happy to bear witness with missing teeth etc, many fortunately realise the value of dental hygiene, maintenance etc and increasingly orthodontics is no longer beyond the reach of people who might not consider themselves 'rich' but are happy to make the investment.

So perhaps Sir, might I interest you in "a set of false teeth?" Much more affordable than ...........

hardly work'n

I have been following the post I started with a lot of interest. Well I did find myself a designer and guess what the price was for the drawings €250. Yes €250 and I have to say I am over the moon with them. Our site is quite large at over an acre. Not only did we get a great set of drawings but on the drawings it has the name of each plant, a photo plus what the long term care for each plant is. ie what time of year to trim.

He came out to us for his first visit and we talked for about 2 1/2 hours about what we wanted for our garden and what we expected. Then he took several samples of soil around the site. He had a small ph test kit and we where delighted to find out we have great soil and will not have to be adding a lot of supplements to it. He did not do the drawings after the first visit becouse we were in the middle of building a wood burning outdoor oven and outdoor kitchen & sitting area (mad in ireland I know).

So he came back a second time when the outdoor kitchen and seating area where finished & that's when he started doing the measurments of the garden and the drawings in earnest. We walked thru the garden together and he took notes the whole time we spoke. That took another two hours. By the end of the week he had dropped off the drawings and I handed over the €250. It was an excellent service at an excellent price.

And what impressed me the most was that on the drawings there were a list of the local nursierys and who had the best prices!! Now that is service. So as Sonnehblumen seems to think paddy the plaster getting €500 per day. I know a lot of paddy the plasters and none of them ever ever got €500 per day!!

And the main reason that we wanted a landscape designer is becouse I don't like lawns and grass some people love them But I don't!

Sonnenblumen

Good for you, the designer must enjoy bananas!

aka_Ciaran

hardly work'n wrote: »

I have been following the post I started with a lot of interest. Well I did find myself a designer and guess what the price was for the drawings €250. Yes €250 and I have to say I am over the moon with them.

250 is a lot more realistic well done, goes to show what can be done if people shop around. Good luck to those who pay it, but 1000 euro for drawings is complete nonsense.

PC

hardly work'n wrote: »

I have been following the post I started with a lot of interest. Well I did find myself a designer and guess what the price was for the drawings €250. Yes €250 and I have to say I am over the moon with them. Our site is quite large at over an acre. Not only did we get a great set of drawings but on the drawings it has the name of each plant, a photo plus what the long term care for each plant is. ie what time of year to trim.

He came out to us for his first visit and we talked for about 2 1/2 hours about what we wanted for our garden and what we expected. Then he took several samples of soil around the site. He had a small ph test kit and we where delighted to find out we have great soil and will not have to be adding a lot of supplements to it. He did not do the drawings after the first visit becouse we were in the middle of building a wood burning outdoor oven and outdoor kitchen & sitting area (mad in ireland I know).
So he came back a second time when the outdoor kitchen and seating area where finished & that's when he started doing the measurments of the garden and the drawings in earnest. We walked thru the garden together and he took notes the whole time we spoke. That took another two hours. By the end of the week he had dropped off the drawings and I handed over the €250. It was an excellent service at an excellent price.

And what impressed me the most was that on the drawings there were a list of the local nursierys and who had the best prices!! Now that is service. So as Sonnehblumen seems to think paddy the plaster getting €500 per day. I know a lot of paddy the plasters and none of them ever ever got €500 per day!!

And the main reason that we wanted a landscape designer is becouse I don't like lawns and grass some people love them But I don't!

Well done hardly work'n...I've been watching this thread with great interest as I'm in the same boat.
Is there any way I can get the name of this 'Designer' as I would love him to have a look at my 'jungle' and hopefully make some sense of it.
Cheers...pc

old boy

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Good for you, the designer must enjoy bananas!

why do you keep matching expensive with quality

The Sweeper

hardly work'n wrote: »

I have been following the post I started with a lot of interest. Well I did find myself a designer and guess what the price was for the drawings €250. Yes €250 and I have to say I am over the moon with them. Our site is quite large at over an acre. Not only did we get a great set of drawings but on the drawings it has the name of each plant, a photo plus what the long term care for each plant is. ie what time of year to trim.

He came out to us for his first visit and we talked for about 2 1/2 hours about what we wanted for our garden and what we expected. Then he took several samples of soil around the site. He had a small ph test kit and we where delighted to find out we have great soil and will not have to be adding a lot of supplements to it. He did not do the drawings after the first visit becouse we were in the middle of building a wood burning outdoor oven and outdoor kitchen & sitting area (mad in ireland I know).

So he came back a second time when the outdoor kitchen and seating area where finished & that's when he started doing the measurments of the garden and the drawings in earnest. We walked thru the garden together and he took notes the whole time we spoke. That took another two hours. By the end of the week he had dropped off the drawings and I handed over the €250. It was an excellent service at an excellent price.

And what impressed me the most was that on the drawings there were a list of the local nursierys and who had the best prices!! Now that is service. So as Sonnehblumen seems to think paddy the plaster getting €500 per day. I know a lot of paddy the plasters and none of them ever ever got €500 per day!!

And the main reason that we wanted a landscape designer is becouse I don't like lawns and grass some people love them But I don't!

Guys, in fairness, what's described in the above post is 4.5 hours of onsite investigation followed by the time required to prepare the drawings. Given the detail described, I'm going to estimate that the drawing prep took at least one day - eight hours. So that's €250 for 12.5 hours of work, working out at €20 an hour.

On top of that is the landscapers own expenses, assuming they're self-employed, so the unpaid time travelling to the site, the petrol for the car, the car itself, so on, so forth.

There is a degree to which you have to speculate to accumulate, and perhaps the designer described in the above description knows that, with the level of detail he provides, he's guaranteed a job out of 9/10 of his quotes, but €20 an hour is not a long-term sustainable payment model for a professional landscape gardener.

When you run your own business you ALWAYS put in more time than you get paid for and the trick is to be able to minimise that output and maximise your returns. As a result, don't just rate drawings as "too expensive" without understanding that there's a price to be put on time and effort and yet another price on expertise. Subsequently if you want someone who knows what they're doing, has extensive experience with different situations and will landscape design properly, with an understanding of different soil types and drainage requirements, for instance, as opposed to just what looks pretty, then be prepared to pay for it.

hardly work'n

As far as making €20 per hour I would say he probably made more than that. Yes he did spend 4 1/2hrs on site. But on the second visit he did the measurements & looked at the drainage becouse there is an odd slope on the property. By the time we were done with the second walk around he had a rough drawing of plants & design. We very much felt part of the design process. Also we spoke a lot about why we would put different plants in different areas. I rang him yesterday to ask him how long after it took him to put everything onto paper after. It took him about 3 hours to do the final drawings so a total of 7 1/2hrs. So at €33 per hour. That's not bad in my book!
And the best part is he put the price on the drawings for him to come in and complete the garden with his crew. Which unfortantly is way out of our budget. And what we will be doing is working in sections. I think there is good value out there if you look. And you don't have to pay someone €80 per hour to get a good service. I have a friend who is an interior designer and he once said charge them enough and they won't complain! So just becouse something is very expensive doesn't mean that it is good. I think I got great value for money. A design we were a part of making our own. I spent almost a year looking for the right person at the right price to design our garden. And now we are delighted and have started planting.

The Sweeper

But see even now - and while it's good you got a good design and value for money - he's a landscape gardener and a set of drawings are only a part of what he does. His final design is out of your price range, so you haven't carried through on the work he started designing for you, so he's actually lost out in your scenario.

I think that's part of the reason why landscape drawings can be so expensive - who knows, for every ten sets of drawings you do, you might come out with only two jobs - if even. Some landscapers are bound to price the time, effort and expertise that goes into drawings with that consideration in mind.

The problem with this thread appears to be that half of the posters believe that the work involved in site visits and drafting isn't worth the price tag placed on it, and the others who work in the industry have the full picture and see the drawings as only a single part of the whole business and subsequently not a loss leader - or not if you want to keep eating at any rate!

One thing that is true is that you WILL find a great variance in price when you request quotes - it's the same in any industry. I'm getting my front garden stepped in a three-tier terrace, with eco-wood sleeper retaining walls, plus a 3m x 10m gravel driveway. There is $1,350 difference between my highest quote and my lowest quote, and the lowest quote guy is the only one who mentioned vital things like drainage, anchoring the walls, using gypsum on the clay, mixing through mushroom compost, preparing the beds for planting...

aka_Ciaran

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

But see even now - and while it's good you got a good design and value for money - he's a landscape gardener and a set of drawings are only a part of what he does. His final design is out of your price range, so you haven't carried through on the work he started designing for you, so he's actually lost out in your scenario.

He hasn't really lost out, he's got roughly 33 euro an hour for his troubles, and most designers seem happy to do plans only, even if the client doesn't follow through. And as you said yourself you have to speculate to accumulate. Chances are that as the OP is very happy with the drawings he will recommend this guy to friends and family and whoever else comes around and sees the garden when it's finished. So for the designer this is a form of advertising and promotion, therefore well worth his while doing plans for this price. A lot of businesses spend fortunes on advertising and marketing with no tangible results to show.

Sonnenblumen

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Guys, in fairness, what's described in the above post is 4.5 hours of onsite investigation followed by the time required to prepare the drawings. Given the detail described, I'm going to estimate that the drawing prep took at least one day - eight hours. So that's €250 for 12.5 hours of work, working out at €20 an hour.

On top of that is the landscapers own expenses, assuming they're self-employed, so the unpaid time travelling to the site, the petrol for the car, the car itself, so on, so forth.

There is a degree to which you have to speculate to accumulate, and perhaps the designer described in the above description knows that, with the level of detail he provides, he's guaranteed a job out of 9/10 of his quotes, but €20 an hour is not a long-term sustainable payment model for a professional landscape gardener.

When you run your own business you ALWAYS put in more time than you get paid for and the trick is to be able to minimise that output and maximise your returns. As a result, don't just rate drawings as "too expensive" without understanding that there's a price to be put on time and effort and yet another price on expertise. Subsequently if you want someone who knows what they're doing, has extensive experience with different situations and will landscape design properly, with an understanding of different soil types and drainage requirements, for instance, as opposed to just what looks pretty, then be prepared to pay for it.

Majd,

Thats an excellent post with all points very well made.

Sonnenblumen

old boy wrote: »

why do you keep matching expensive with quality

Charge too little and you will soon be out of business, charge too much and you will also run out of business. The pricing strategy is within these two extremes, and for us quality and expertise will always be at the higher end.

We have overheads, but we have great skills, and we provide a top quality service. The demand for our services is sufficently robust to confirm our pricing is right and this is evident in demand exceeding availability.

In the case of the OP, he got a design on the cheap, the service provider obviously took a gamble, he sold on an OTT service for what was paid, and failed to get the instal contract. He was either naieve and/or silly on how he approache dthis project. In the end the client led him down the garden path? How many € 250.00 jobs does he need to sustain his business? Or how many can he afford to do before going bust? How does he pay his crew if he's on-site offering the sun, moon and stars for € 30.00/hr or less?

A one trick agent might last on € 30.00/hr but not for long.

In the real world, bar some exceptions, the truth is you get what you pay for!

hardly work'n

Firstly as the OP I just want to make sure every one is clear. All we wanted was drawings. We were always going to do the physical work ourselves and source the plants ourselves. We knew in advance that we were going to be doing a very large amount of planting and that we would have some bargining power going into the bigger nurserys with a bulk order.

Our designer knew in advance that it was for drawings and drawings only! We also knew going in that we would not be able to afford to get someone in to do the work. But by him putting in the price of him doing the work just confirmed what we alread knew. We are landscaping over an acre of land with no lawns. So there is quite a cost in planting involved. We also knew and our designer knew that it would be done in sections. And some sections just get to go wild!

So in that respect I do not think €30per hr is a very low price I think it is a very fair price to pay. We did not ripe him off or lead him on in any way shape or form in thinking that there was a chance he would get "the job". I would be delighted if I made €30 an hour. And I would say a lot of people in Ireland or around the world would be delighted with that.

Again I was looking for drawings and drawings alone. I was very up front with every designer I contacted about only wanting drawings and that we were doing all the labour and sourcing of plants ourselves.

I am surprised that some of you think that a person can not make a business work or feed himself on €30 per hour. And for that matter I think we have all been around long enough to know that you will not get a crew of workers in plus all your plants for €30 per hour. This post was origanally about getting some drawings for a very large site that we could do ourselves over time and develop our garden at a pace that we could afford with out having to go to the bank and take out a second morgate to pay someone to do it in a couple of weeks. Where it will probably take us a year or two to get it all completed.

aka_Ciaran

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

In the case of the OP, he got a design on the cheap, the service provider obviously took a gamble, he sold on an OTT service for what was paid, and failed to get the instal contract. He was either naieve and/or silly on how he approache dthis project. In the end the client led him down the garden path? How many € 250.00 jobs does he need to sustain his business? Or how many can he afford to do before going bust? How does he pay his crew if he's on-site offering the sun, moon and stars for € 30.00/hr or less?

A one trick agent might last on € 30.00/hr but not for long.

In the real world, bar some exceptions, the truth is you get what you pay for!

???

So anyone that gets a set of drawings and doesn't go for the full package in terms of doing the work is leading the landscaper up the the garden path? How is 30 euro per hour 'on the cheap'?

?Cee?view

I have to say that I find this thread somewhat incredible.

The OP came on asking for advice. The insults that he has been subjected to have been unwarranted. He's been accused of "leading [the designer] up the garden path" and the designer he employed has apparently been consigned to eating bananas!

Some valid points have been made with regard to certain business models being unsustainable, but the inference that shopping around is contemptible would certainly leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Personally, I have an acre and a half that needs some serious design input. I would gladly pay €1,000 to have it designed professionally. That is my choice and right, as much as it would be my choice and right to try to get the same design for €250. However, I would never want to deal with some of the attitudes displayed here by "professionals", regardless of what they charge.

monke

churchview, you are dead right. i am also a designer as is one other person on this post.I always been told that my prices are to cheap but that is my choice and my work is just as good as anybody else doing the same work. some people are just a ignorant and arrogant on this point and think if you are cheap,the work is not as good as them because they are expensive. Your work could look crap to me. At the end of the day it is only the people involved in the project that have the right to complain or. pass judgement on prices and quality

Sonnenblumen

aka_Ciaran wrote: »

???

So anyone that gets a set of drawings and doesn't go for the full package in terms of doing the work is leading the landscaper up the the garden path? How is 30 euro per hour 'on the cheap'?

If a designer pitches for a project and offers design for an unusually low price of € 250 for 1 acre site and has not further part in it , well perhaps he/she was desperate to earn some money, build portfolio etc I don't know.

If on the otherhand the designer is happy producing designs for 1 acre site for € 250.00 well thats really his/her business but I seriously wonder where they will be in the medium term. €30 .00/hr might be OK for a one man band or a lifestyle operator but not for someone intent on retaining a construction crew? Incidentally did the OP mention if the fee included VAT?

There might be plenty of one man shows probably happy to earn € 30.00Gross/hr, but in my opinion that's not sustainable in the longer term for running a business (no matter what the business is). That's why it's cheap. It would be interesting to know how many if any of the critics are running a business?

Sometimes for a full design+build project the design fee can discounted or even wiaved. Sometimes at quote stage teh prospective might ask for a free design? HELLO? IMO, there are plenty of small designers and small landscapers around the country either struggling to find work or doing 'itsy bitsy work' and there is little wonder why.

That's the great thing about free enterprise, competition rules apply and there's much more at stake than price.

Sonnenblumen

monke wrote: »

churchview, you are dead right. i am also a designer as is one other person on this post.I always been told that my prices are to cheap but that is my choice and my work is just as good as anybody else doing the same work. some people are just a ignorant and arrogant on this point and think if you are cheap,the work is not as good as them because they are expensive. Your work could look crap to me. At the end of the day it is only the people involved in the project that have the right to complain or. pass judgement on prices and quality

Disagree, as is evident in many design disciplines, there are professional bodies there to promote good codes of practice but also to promote greater awareness of good design practice an dthe value of retaining good designers. But there is no open door policy to joining these bodies. No one has to demonstrate a prescribed level of competency which involves submitting examples of work which are then scrutinised by experienced designers. Another popular form of having one's work open to scrutiny is entering awards and competitions. Some cynics might argue that winning design awards is (commercially) a kiss of death. But if you believe you are in fact a good designer/landscaper, why would you not wish to have your work endorse by the industry but within the public domain? What's wrong with having your work open to scrutiny by peers etc, it might be part ego-massage but it might also provide valuable feedback?

The real judge however is of course the paying client. But sometimes a client might be the victim of poor service and/or poor value for money. Are you suggesting that in such instances that this be kept between client and service provider?

Much more important to demonstrate a passion for what you do, and to do it with obvious pride, and in doing so, exceed client expectations.

monke

Not at all,if the work is poor well then it should be made aware. there are so many landscapers that get work and sometimes you wonder how. i have a question, did his price include construction plans, ie drainage, levels, what materials to be used

mikom

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Incidentally did the OP mention if the fee included VAT?

Readers should note that in this instance the term VAT refers to Value-Added-Tax not Very-Arrogant-Tax.

hardly work'n

Yes, just in case anyone is intersted I did pay the vat on the 250!! And again all I wanted was the drawings. And every landscape designer I spoke with I made it very clear we just wanted drawings. Again we were going to do all the planting and labour ourselves. The person we hired is a professional and not a lifestyler or however you put it.

And for that matter didn't RTE do a program on do you want to be a garden desginer?? Where they took 5 or 6 people who never designed a garden or had any training to design gardens for a prize? And if you check on the net several of those people are now "garden designers".

I am sorry for some of you who seem to be quite offended that I got a very good job at a very good price. If I could I would put all the designers info up on this site for everyone to see. Becouse I think people are now looking for better value for there money. And the other thing is he is quite busy for several reasons number one he is very good, number two he offers good value for money and number three and I think most important he gets to know his clients. Takes the time to involve them in the design process which makes it your garden not theirs.

So for those who are upset or offended that I recieved good value again I do feel quite sorry for you.

?Cee?view

hardly work'n,

Among the latest thinly veiled insults that are being thrown at you, there was actually a sensible question.

Did he include structural drawings, materials, specs etc?

Maybe you've answered this, but I can't find it and I'd be keen to know. My own garden is quite sloped and will likely require some "engineering type" solutions, hence my interest.

Sonnenblumen, I do run a business. I am aware that businesses in my same sector (and other sectors) can be run very differently, with varying overheads. For instance, a one man band could survive on much less per hour than a fully upscaled enterprise with resultant higher overheads. The one man band could contract people when needed to take on more extensive jobs. In this context, what's to say that the OP wouldn't take on workers/labourers/subbies or whatever you want to call them from job to job rather than as full-time employees? It's just a different business model which these days has the advantage of not having a fixed and inflexible overhead.

aka_Ciaran

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Disagree, as is evident in many design disciplines, there are professional bodies there to promote good codes of practice but also to promote greater awareness of good design practice and the value of retaining good designers.

Who's to say that the designer in question that provided the 250 euro plans isn't a member of a professional body? Sounds like the OP's designer has adhered to good design practice and is a good designer.

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

The real judge however is of course the paying client. But sometimes a client might be the victim of poor service and/or poor value for money. Are you suggesting that in such instances that this be kept between client and service provider?

That doesn't really make sense, no-one is suggesting that. A person could just as easily be a victim of poor service and value for money if they pay 1000 euro for plans.

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Much more important to demonstrate a passion for what you do, and to do it with obvious pride, and in doing so, exceed client expectations.

Judging by the OP's postings this is exactly what his designer has done, and without charging an arm and a leg for it.

The Sweeper

Folks, mark me carefully here:

If you have a problem with posts on this thread, report them. Any more on-thread bitching and I will infract or ban every poster who cannot get their head around that fact. Sonnenblumen has very strong opinions on this matter that he/she it has expressed strongly, and I'm seeing snipey responses from the side who believe that expensive drawings are a rip off as well, and it's unacceptable.

Keep it civil and stop the swiping, all parties.

This is an argument about value, and as the OP, hardly work'n, I would recommend that you don't take the path of over-reading into what's been posted here and accusing people of being somehow unhappy that you got good value for money.

I also don't support the argument that a designer is not good just because they are cheap, but I don't want to see any more arguments that have no more merit than "cheap = crap and pricey = great".

This is a good thread - I would recommend some of you review your comments so it doesn't end up locked.

dardevle

.


really enjoying this thread....like all other facets of the design and build construction sector ...landscaping is also going through the spin cycle of changes that is the recession,what once was is no more.
it seems to me that the op upon doing the necessary research seems to have gotten a good deal,well done... i also believe that 12-18 months ago
it would not have been possible to get this service at this price without the high risk of "cowboy factor".
like many of the rest of us, professionals are also feeling the pinch and consequently are having to cut their coat to suit the cloth...as sonnenblumen has said research is the best tool in the quest to find value and quality.


.

hardly work'n

churchview wrote: »

Did he include structural drawings, materials, specs etc?

Maybe you've answered this, but I can't find it and I'd be keen to know. My own garden is quite sloped and will likely require some "engineering type" solutions, hence my interest.
quote]

Our site is a bit unsual, in shape and terrain, the front half used to be an old road, but 30 odd years ago they took a very bad hair pin bend out of it to straightened the road. The farmer that we bought the sight from used to "winter" his cattle in that field (I'm not sure what that means. But I would say with all that cow manure is why we have such good soil:)). So there is a rather stange drop off halfway across the front that is in the shape of the hair pin bend. The farmer had left the old stone wall in place but knocked it down level with the old road and tore out the tarmac. The field was origanally lower slightly lower than the road. Our designer gave us the option of taking out the stone and using railway sleepers to reinforce it making it look more defined.

We opted to keep the old stone there in it's place. So we might have had to get some "engineered" drawings had we decided to go for the railway sleepers. I hope that answers your question.