Students' Union 'strike' referendum

Breezer

I know there's already many threads on fees, but the latest one has gotten a bit derailed and I'd really like to focus on the forthcoming referendum about fees. If the mods disagree I guess the topics can be merged.

For anyone unaware of what's proposed, the text of the referendum can be read here and the Yes manifesto here.

Am I the only one that thinks this is total lunacy? I'm anti-fees, I'm generally pro-SU and I'm certainly against the majority of the policies Fianna Fáil have put in place over the last 12 years, but seriously, a 'strike' by students, where we sit around campus and watch films? The only message that's going to send out is that we've given ourselves a day off!

If we're going to do anything, I think more marches and a co-ordinated campaign to lobby Batt O'Keeffe and local Government TDs would be a much better approach. Do I think it will do any good? Probably not, because I think at this stage Fianna Fáil knows the game is up and will do precisely what it likes, but at least it would send the right message.

As for it not affecting lectures and tutorials, I'm sorry, but it will affect me. 90% of my lectures are given by hospital consultants and other guests who are not in the employ of UCD and have to fit the lecture in around their already busy schedules. My tutorials take place off-campus, in about 6 different hospitals, where not only do hospital staff have to be available, but also patients who have kindly agreed to meet with us and allow us to interview or examine them. We also have an extremely tight class schedule due to the fact that this part of the course finishes in 3 weeks, and any student who's had to reschedule even one tutorial so far this semester has found it extremely difficult to do so. I realise this doesn't apply to 99% of students but it affects a lot of Health Science students.

Anyway, rant over. Anyone else got a different take on this? I'm open to being convinced of the strike's merits, but only if I hear a damn good argument.

spudington16

Breezer wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks this is total lunacy? ... a 'strike' by students, where we sit around campus and watch films? The only message that's going to send out is that we've given ourselves a day off!

If we're going to do anything, I think more marches and a co-ordinated campaign to lobby Batt O'Keeffe and local Government TDs would be a much better approach. Do I think it will do any good? Probably not, because I think at this stage Fianna Fáil knows the game is up and will do precisely what it likes, but at least it would send the right message.

I'm in full agreement that this is a totally inappropriate form of fighting fees. We'll do our reputation as 'sponging' students no good by conforming to stereotypes and dossing for a day. Admittedly the battle against fees is essentially lost at this point (let's be realistic, folks) but I believe organised marches are a better way of getting our message across.

Furthermore, any SU backing of this is ludicrous; what kind of message does it give to waste our current free education by not attending classes?

passive

Anyone got the time to get a "no" campaign going? or even put up some posters by the blob? I'll be Ron-ing most of the candidates, because of the over-simplistic rabble rousing fees side to their manifestos (presidents especially), but I have too many essays to do this week to put any effort into this pro "going-to-****ing-class" campaign.

Incidentally, if the classes are still running, and it's a case of these tools physically blocking my access to lectures or tutorials, they will be the recipients of strong words.*

*written on my knuckles .

Breezer

passive wrote: »

Anyone got the time to get a "no" campaign going? or even put up some posters by the blob?

Not by myself, I'm in the aforementioned hospitals for tutorials half the time between now and Thursday. If I can get a group of committed people from a decent spread of faculties together between now and then I may (please note the emphasis) consider it, but I reckon most people who are anti-strike would also be pro-fees, so I have my doubts as to whether this would work. Any anti-strike, anti-fees, non-Health Science takers out there?

Incidentally, if the classes are still running, and it's a case of these tools blocking my access to class, they will be the recipients of strong words.*

*written on my knuckles .

I've been wondering about this myself, will there be a 'strike breaker' mentality? No word as to whether the staff would actually support this, so classes could well go ahead, although it's worth remembering that the lecturers are public servants and may well be in the mood to embarrass the government.

Mushy

spudington16 wrote: »

Furthermore, any SU backing of this is ludicrous; what kind of message does it give to waste our current free education by not attending classes?

From what I understand of it, it'll happen in conjunction with a UCD SIPTU protest against the pension levy, so there would be no classes that day anyway(whenever/if ever it goes ahead).

Otherwise, I'm kind off very indifferent to it. It wouldn't be the best way, but at a crucial time, I can't think of any other way.

Breezer

Mushy wrote: »

It wouldn't be the best way, but at a crucial time, I can't think of any other way.

As I suggested: more marches, protests outside the Dept. of Education, letters with a sh*t load of signatures sent to Batt O'Keeffe, copied to local Fianna Fáil and Green TDs. We could also organise meetings, inviting government figures so that views could be exchanged (these invitations would no doubt be ignored, but that's no reason not to issue them). All of the above could be co-ordinated with other colleges and universities to achieve a more prolonged national campaign that would be a lot less likely to leave a bad taste in the public's mouth.

Mushy

Breezer wrote: »

As I suggested: more marches, protests outside the Dept. of Education, letters with a sh*t load of signatures sent to Batt O'Keeffe, copied to local Fianna Fáil and Green TDs. We could also organise meetings, inviting government figures so that views could be exchanged (these invitations would no doubt be ignored, but that's no reason not to issue them). All of the above could be co-ordinated with other colleges and universities to achieve a more prolonged national campaign that would be a lot less likely to leave a bad taste in the public's mouth.

One reason why I can't see more marches working is that it would still leave a bad taste in the public's mouth. If we were to be seen as 'sponging' for that day, then what would they say if traffic was brought to a standstill through the city for another march? Would also leave a bad taste unfortunately.

The other proposals I would agree on though.

Breezer

Mushy wrote: »

One reason why I can't see more marches working is that it would still leave a bad taste in the public's mouth. If we were to be seen as 'sponging' for that day, then what would they say if traffic was brought to a standstill through the city for another march? Would also leave a bad taste unfortunately.

Fair enough, good point. But there's still room for lots of ideas that don't involve students staying in bed all day (because let's face it, that's what the majority will do if this goes ahead).

delta_bravo

Mushy wrote: »

From what I understand of it, it'll happen in conjunction with a UCD SIPTU protest against the pension levy, so there would be no classes that day anyway(whenever/if ever it goes ahead).

But surely not all staff are in siptu? I presume lecturers have their own union although they may go out on sympathetic strike. I am completely against it but like most on the thread and am pro fees so i would say we are in the minority.

I really dont see the purpose of it and am quite annoyed that it hasnt been really publicised. Id say the bar will be packed on the day of it.

abelard

The referendum doesn't have "SU backing". Referenda can be called by SU Council, but this one was called by an independent student (or students, I don't know) collecting the required amount of signatures from UCD Students.

The SU (by which I mean the Sabbats, exec, Council etc.), as such, is neutral on the referendum. Assistance is provided to an official agent for each side of the campaign. Thus far, an official yes agent has come forward, and has thus been given support in printing a manifesto. Noone has come forward asking to be the official no agent, so no material has been produced.

Red Alert

I think the way to protest would not be to take a day off, but have a mass demonstration in town on a Saturday and bring the city centre to a standstill.

El Siglo

A strike by students will do as much good as a strike by toddlers, I'm against the reintroduction of fees but this is a retarded course of action. Even the marches were a joke with placards like "Free Joseph Fritzl" and "Less Fees, More Gees", this is going to either:

-> provoke no response, maybe a little rté coverage on the 6-1 news or the 5.30 news on tv3, with feck all else said

Or

-> it's going to make student's look like a bunch of wasters, and may turn the general public (with the exception of indymedia types) against the anti-fees 'movement' (This is more of a possibility akin to the miners' strike of the 80's in England and Wales, especially the way rté and tv3 like to cut things in the governments' favour)

You see student's don't really have any bargaining chips, not like the OAP's and public service workers who are guaranteed to vote and are fairly important to the running of the country. Student's are seen as an economic drain to put it bluntly who don't turn out consistently to vote.

More protest marches, sit-ins, disrupt the dáil, talk to your local opposition td etc... but definately not a 'strike'.

Maybe if they introduced fees we could borrow money from anglo irish!

simonrooneyzaga

If this is passed and the strike goes ahead, will there be a barricade of **** trying to stop me from going to % tutorials?

Mushy

Breezer wrote: »

Fair enough, good point. But there's still room for lots of ideas that don't involve students staying in bed all day (because let's face it, that's what the majority will do if this goes ahead).

Yeah, this is what I ws trying to get at, as in, it needs better ideas to bring more attention on it.

delta_bravo wrote: »

But surely not all staff are in siptu? I presume lecturers have their own union although they may go out on sympathetic strike. I am completely against it but like most on the thread and am pro fees so i would say we are in the minority.

I really dont see the purpose of it and am quite annoyed that it hasnt been really publicised. Id say the bar will be packed on the day of it.

Oh I'm not pro-fees, I don't want them introduced, but do think there could be better ways at bringing the situation to their attention. And yes, the bar would be packed...wouldn't help one bit.

El Siglo wrote: »

A strike by students will do as much good as a strike by toddlers, I'm against the reintroduction of fees but this is a retarded course of action. Even the marches were a joke with placards like "Free Joseph Fritzl" and "Less Fees, More Gees", this is going to either:

-> provoke no response, maybe a little rté coverage on the 6-1 news or the 5.30 news on tv3, with feck all else said

Or

-> it's going to make student's look like a bunch of wasters, and may turn the general public (with the exception of indymedia types) against the anti-fees 'movement' (This is more of a possibility akin to the miners' strike of the 80's in England and Wales, especially the way rté and tv3 like to cut things in the governments' favour)

You see student's don't really have any bargaining chips, not like the OAP's and public service workers who are guaranteed to vote and are fairly important to the running of the country. Student's are seen as an economic drain to put it bluntly who don't turn out consistently to vote.

More protest marches, sit-ins, disrupt the dáil, talk to your local opposition td etc... but definately not a 'strike'.

Maybe if they introduced fees we could borrow money from anglo irish!

This would be a similar stance to mine. Don't think as much focus has been put on this as some other things by the media(who are undoubtedly very powerful in these situations), although in saying that, students haven't shown themselves to be too great at getting the point across(look at the example of placards in post above). I know I wouldn't take a protest seriously if it had these slogans.

So no to a 'strike' for me.

Mushy

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

If this is passed and the strike goes ahead, will there be a barricade of **** trying to stop me from going to % tutorials?

Oh wouldn't it be ironic, they say re-introducing fee's would block 3rd level education, and then they try block you going to tutorials? Throw that in their face nd they've no counter-arguement, and only takes roughly 5 seconds of your time.

To answer your question, there better not be!

delta_bravo

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

If this is passed and the strike goes ahead, will there be a barricade of **** trying to stop me from going to % tutorials?

Tell them education is a right and not a privilege and by definition they are opressing your human rights

simonrooneyzaga

Mushy wrote: »

Oh wouldn't it be ironic, they say re-introducing fee's would block 3rd level education, and then they try block you going to tutorials? Throw that in their face nd they've no counter-arguement, and only takes roughly 5 seconds of your time.

To answer your question, there better not be!

Nevertheless, ill be bringing a weapon in should they feel the need to obstruct. 5 Iron would seem appropriate to disperse the leftist crowd.

Tom65

I agree with what's been said so far. A strike isn't a consistent campaign tactic, it's a kneejerk reaction. A thorough campaign would consist of what people have already said: letters to TDs, get some in for debates, occasional protests.

If we do that, and they still introduce legistlation for fees, then you get to the protest, 'civil disobedience' malarky. Assuming you're against fees.

El Siglo wrote: »

Even the marches were a joke with placards like "Free Joseph Fritzl" and "Less Fees, More Gees", this is going to either:

Ah now, "Less Fees, More Gees" is fairly funny...

El Siglo

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

Nevertheless, ill be bringing a weapon in should they feel the need to obstruct. 5 Iron would seem appropriate to disperse the leftist crowd.

You wouldn't need a weapon, they're all a bunch of hippy sociology knobs (no offence intended to anyone doing sociology), just tell them "I'll fookin deck ya if ya down't get out me fookin waiy, ya gune!", wearing a celtic jersey might add to this as well!:D

Mushy

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

Nevertheless, ill be bringing a weapon in should they feel the need to obstruct. 5 Iron would seem appropriate to disperse the leftist crowd.

I'd go with my favoured 7-iron:D

El Siglo wrote: »

You wouldn't need a weapon, they're all a bunch of hippy sociology knobs (no offence intended to anyone doing sociology), just tell them "I'll fookin deck ya if ya down't get out me fookin waiy, ya gune!", wearing a celtic jersey might add to this as well!:D

Yeah, better be no offence to that sociology comment:D

lemon_sherbert

I completely agree, I haven't talked to anyone in college yet who agrees with it, though then again, not too many have heard of it either. I have no intention of missing a class, I only have every subject one day a week, plus tutorials. To miss a class means missing an exam question. I'm not willing to do that in the name of a campaign that is poorly organised, and not all too convincing.

The way the majority of the SU candidates are approaching it is driving me insane, no to any cutbacks, no to registration fees, no to fees for non-EU students - this isn't reasonable. When the money isn't there for teachers and special needs assistants in primary schools, the government are never going to stump up more money!

I think at this point, if we are to have any hope of staving off fees, we have to bring something to table. We need to suggest places that cutbacks can be acheived with the least overall impact. I think there need to be contingency plans in place in case fees do come back, inviting private funding for scholarships and grants.

Breezer

lemon_sherbert wrote: »

I think at this point, if we are to have any hope of staving off fees, we have to bring something to table.

You're 100% right. Initially, I opposed fees in any form, but I'm coming round to the idea of some sort of graduate tax, provided it's implemented in conjunction with some badly needed shaking up of the 3rd level sector (e.g. Brady being allowed to engage in massive retail therapy for things that were neither wanted nor needed). And yes, I know I'm parroting the Fine Gael party line there but it makes sense to me. The problem is that this is medium to long term thinking. The government is thinking short term on this one, and once upfront fees are back they'll be here to stay.

Anyway I'd like to keep this more related to the strike rather than fees in general, there's enough on those in the other thread. It's good to see a few other anti-fees, anti-strike people here too, it gives me a faint glimmer of hope that this might not actually be passed. I'm not holding my breath though, I can see a heck of a lot of first years (and others) voting for a free holiday.

Out of interest, when did people first hear about this? I saw something about it on the fees thread on Saturday, but it wasn't until this morning that I saw anything about it in college, and people seem to be saying similar things.

Mushy

Breezer wrote: »

You're 100% right. Initially, I opposed fees in any form, but I'm coming round to the idea of some sort of graduate tax, provided it's implemented in conjunction with some badly needed shaking up of the 3rd level sector (e.g. Brady being allowed to engage in massive retail therapy for things that were neither wanted nor needed). And yes, I know I'm parroting the Fine Gael party line there but it makes sense to me. The problem is that this is medium to long term thinking. The government is thinking short term on this one, and once upfront fees are back they'll be here to stay.

Anyway I'd like to keep this more related to the strike rather than fees in general, there's enough on those in the other thread. It's good to see a few other anti-fees, anti-strike people here too, it gives me a faint glimmer of hope that this might not actually be passed. I'm not holding my breath though, I can see a heck of a lot of first years (and others) voting for a free holiday.

Out of interest, when did people first hear about this? I saw something about it on the fees thread on Saturday, but it wasn't until this morning that I saw anything about it in college, and people seem to be saying similar things.

As said before, I'm still anti-fees, yet strike won't help. I will admit that I heard of this potential strike a long time ago(3 weeks ago), and signed some petition on the spot. But thinking about it now and knowing more about it, i'd vote against it.

Civpro

delta_bravo wrote: »

Tell them education is a right and not a privilege and by definition they are opressing your human rights

lol

Chakar

I'm actually amazed at the irony of it, since third level education is supposed to be a "right" as they claim. Nevertheless I'll vote against it, and hope it doesn't pass. But if it does, I won't be upset as it'll give the Government more political capital to reintroduce fees, which I'm favour of along with the NUI Galway 'Rag Week' fiasco.

delta_bravo

Chakar wrote: »

along with the NUI Galway 'Rag Week' fiasco.

That seems to have caused irreparable damage to the anti fees campaign as public opinion of students as lazy, troublemaking alcoholics was pretty much justified in galway last week

1968

I completely support this referendum and will be urging all my mates to vote YES.

We've signed the petitions, sent the letters, had the lake side rally, had the public meetings, blockaded and protested against visiting FF TDs, held mass protests in town and occupied government offices. We've been ignored.

It is now time to take the next step.

A complete mass walk out of all UCD students and a 24 'shutdown' of the college (linked with the planned INTO strike on March 30th or a SIPTU Education Branch strike) would send a very very strong message to the government.

The idea of a Student Strike is regularly and effectively used by the 'student movement' all over the world including Canada, Italy, France etc...

Breezer

1968 wrote: »

We've signed the petitions, sent the letters, had the lake side rally, had the public meetings, blockaded and protested against visiting FF TDs, held mass protests in town and occupied government offices. We've been ignored.

Some of those actions were a bit questionable too IMO...

A complete mass walk out of all UCD students and a 24 'shutdown' of the college (linked with the planned INTO strike on March 30th or a SIPTU Education Branch strike) would send a very very strong message to the government.

What message exactly? That we are willing to jeopardise the education we say we can't do without and need to have provided for us? I mean if a group of workers goes on strike, the resulting chaos highlights the fact that they are providing an essential service. If a group of students goes on 'strike,' well... what exactly happens, other than us inconveniencing ourselves?

The idea of a Student Strike is regularly and effectively used by the 'student movement' all over the world including Canada, Italy, France etc...

The Yes manifesto mentioned this; can you provide any specific examples as to when such a tactic was used, in what circumstances and to what effect?

1968

Breezer wrote: »

As I suggested: more marches, protests outside the Dept. of Education, letters with a sh*t load of signatures sent to Batt O'Keeffe, copied to local Fianna Fáil and Green TDs.

We've had local marches in Sligo, Dublin, Munster, Athlone etc.. Most SU have also collected thousands of signatures in various petitions.

I wish we could beat fees by just collecting signatures or having a picket outside the Dept. of Education but the government are very serious in bringing back fees and we must be serious in stopping them. I think a 24 student strike/shut down is a good step.

passive

1968 wrote: »

We've had local marches in Sligo, Dublin, Munster, Athlone etc.. Most SU have also collected thousands of signatures in various petitions.

I wish we could beat fees by just collecting signatures or having a picket outside the Dept. of Education but the government are very serious in bringing back fees and we must be serious in stopping them. I think a 24 student strike/shut down is a good step.

A good step how? For those of us who want to go to class, it's a bad step. For those of you naive enough to think it will actually change anything, it's a futile step. It's a good step for you, because you want to FIGHT THE POWER and stick it to the man (nice screenname, by the way, vive la France! Mai '68!).

But if they ignored your signatures (my god...really... are they done in pen!?), blocking the TD offices, protests with thousands (gasp, really, thousands!?) of people, why would they suddenly pay attention when you win the retard award by taking a day off college to (jesus, I can't believe this isn't a joke) show how important college is. Or do you just want to wrap a scarf around your face and maybe throw some **** at the pigs?

I'm Ronning all the presidents because none of them have the balls to say anything other than "no to fees." If someone said "Fees are happening, let's make sure it's implemented in the best way possible, and grants are improved accordingly" I'd vote for them, and would intend to turn up at the polls for reasons other than voting No to this stupid crap. Incidentally; boardsies, spread the word. NO to stopping us from going to college. NO to waving socialist party/SWP banners over SU marches. No to BS agendas. Turn up at the polls, vote NO to all that, and get yourself a "VOTED, SO PLEASE **** OFF" sticker to drown out the yelling and rabble rousing of the "political candidates"

Breezer

1968 wrote: »

We've had local marches in Sligo, Dublin, Munster, Athlone etc.. Most SU have also collected thousands of signatures in various petitions.

And all we can do is keep the pressure up so they know the issue isn't going to go away and that it will come back to haunt them at election time. Although I have my suspicions that the Fianna Fáil leadership has consigned itself to the inevitable at this stage, which is why I'm suggesting lobbying the local TDs.

I wish we could beat fees by just collecting signatures or having a picket outside the Dept. of Education but the government are very serious in bringing back fees and we must be serious in stopping them. I think a 24 student strike/shut down is a good step.

How exactly will it add to what has gone before, or make us seem more serious? If anything, it will make us look a lot less serious, laughable in fact, and it will weaken the whole campaign.

1968

Breezer wrote: »

Some of those actions were a bit questionable too IMO...

What message exactly? That we are willing to jeopardise the education we say we can't do without and need to have provided for us? I mean if a group of workers goes on strike, the resulting chaos highlights the fact that they are providing an essential service. If a group of students goes on 'strike,' well... what exactly happens, other than us inconveniencing ourselves?

The Yes manifesto mentioned this; can you provide any specific examples as to when such a tactic was used, in what circumstances and to what effect?

1) I agree. Petitions, letter writing and lake side rallies rarely achieves anything.

2 & 3) A 24 student walkout followed by either mass protests on campus and/or city centre would really rattle the government. I have to add that the USI have come out in favour of the idea of a National 24 Third Level Shutdown. The referendum in UCD is designed to help give USI a mandate to go for it. Student walkouts, strikes and college universities have long been used a tactic. Some recent examples:

2005 - Dutch secondary school students held a number of 24 hour student strikes and won concessions on planned education reforms.

2006 - French students striked in 68 out of 89 universities against
government's proposed French Contrat Première Embauche (Contract of First Employment) law, which would have permitted large employers to sack 18-26 year-old workers without notice, and without explanation. The government backed down.

Chilean students striked to remove the university admissions test (PSU) fee amongst other things. The government met most of the demands.

2007 - Israeli college students held over a month long strike against the proposed increase of tutition fees which saw the government back down.

Breezer

If I remember correctly, at least the French one had massive public support in that the Contrat Première Embauche was hugely unpopular. I can't see the same level of support being given in Ireland, partly because compared to the French we're hopeless at protesting and partly because everyone has their own problems right now, and they see another group getting hit with something as one less thing they'll get hit with. I honestly believe this strike will weaken any semblance of public support students currently enjoy.

passive

1968 wrote: »

1) I agree. Petitions, letter writing and lake side rallies rarely achieves anything.

2006 - French students striked in 68 out of 89 universities against
government's proposed French Contrat Première Embauche (Contract of First Employment) law, which would have permitted large employers to sack 18-26 year-old workers without notice, and without explanation. The government backed down.
.

They strike every f*cking year though. I lost 6 weeks of class to it last year, and they lost in the end. Just 'cos it worked one time, doesn't mean it's going to work here. And their universities are a mess.

1968

Breezer wrote: »

I can't see the same level of support being given in Ireland...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/almost--60pc-say-college-fees-are-bad-idea-1658202.html

Only 21% of the public support the reintroduction of student fees.

[That's from a Irish Independent/Millward Brown IMS poll.]

spudington16

Is it too late for a group to submit to act as official agents for the no side and put out material to that effect? The SU emailed all students yesterday about the issue and it was the first I'd heard of the referendum.

passive

spudington16 wrote: »

Is it too late for a group to submit to act as official agents for the no side and put out material to that effect? The SU emailed all students yesterday about the issue and it was the first I'd heard of the referendum.

Probably not too late to get a couple of posters up, if you have the time.

Tayto2000

1968 wrote: »

Only 21% of the public support the reintroduction of student fees.

Big surprise, people who would be asked to pay fees aren't in favour of them! That's why abolishing them was such a winner with the public in 1996... I don't think the public was too keen on bin taxes either and they still got brought in. There's a parallel with the abolition of rates in the 70s there too.

So as Breezer pointed out, I have yet to hear a credible suggestion from FEE or indeed the USI as to what should be done about the hole in 3rd level funding. Taking a no to fees position is fine, but I still haven't heard anything beyond that stance... What is being brought to the table?

A strong message will be sent by a one day strike - what is this message? Nobody has yet been able to articulate what message will be sent by a day of students 'striking'. Personally, I don't think Irish students taking a day off is going to have much effect beyond reinforcing the national sterotype that NUIG (un)helpfully reminded everyone of last week.

panda100

Breezer wrote: »

As for it not affecting lectures and tutorials, I'm sorry, but it will affect me. 90% of my lectures are given by hospital consultants and other guests who are not in the employ of UCD and have to fit the lecture in around their already busy schedules. My tutorials take place off-campus, in about 6 different hospitals, where not only do hospital staff have to be available, but also patients who have kindly agreed to meet with us and allow us to interview or examine them. We also have an extremely tight class schedule due to the fact that this part of the course finishes in 3 weeks, and any student who's had to reschedule even one tutorial so far this semester has found it extremely difficult to do so. I realise this doesn't apply to 99% of students but it affects a lot of Health Science students..

A one day shut down of UCD will have absolutely no effect on your medical studies.
What will is the onslaught of cutbacks medicine students will be facing in the coming months and years.

I heared last week that UCD students now have to find there own surgical and medical roation's in final year? Good luck with that, as (public) hospital teams across the country become more and more burdened and stifled with a lack of resources.

Last week 99% of IMO members balloted in favour of strike action. Medical students must stand with all NCHD's in their strike action. The attacks on their working conditions and training conditions will have an absolutely detremential effect on the education of medical students.

The IMO strike will more than likely coincide with the ICTU national day of action planned for 30th March. As the Yes referendum material states ' The referendum commits the union to work with the staff and their unions to organise this shutdown in conjunction with the staff. A meeting of siptu members in UCD agreed to call for a one day strike,we should work to comnine these actions.If we succeed in having united action,then there wont be a class to miss'.

Medical students instead of bleating pathetic excuses like 'we (the Irish) are hopeless at protesting' should resoundly say yes to this referendum. A shutdown of UCD will demonstrate the enormous power of students, that we can have a say and will have a say in our future.

Many UCD students on boards seem to be in denial about how serious this recession is. This economic crisis will not be over in a year or two,estimates are that it will be at least a decade until we see even a slight bit of economic growth.
So we may be students now, but wether you leave UCD this year or in three years your chances of finding a job will be nil to none.
If we follow breezers suggestion of a graduate tax or full fee's as touted by others on here, this means that innovative, young, well educated people who can give so much to society will be staring into a bleak future of crippling students debts and the dole queue.

If UCD students commit to a 24 hour shutdown of UCD, then education would become a key issue for the goverment with other schools and colleges following suit.

Tom65

Breezer wrote: »

Some of those actions were a bit questionable too IMO...

What message exactly? That we are willing to jeopardise the education we say we can't do without and need to have provided for us? I mean if a group of workers goes on strike, the resulting chaos highlights the fact that they are providing an essential service. If a group of students goes on 'strike,' well... what exactly happens, other than us inconveniencing ourselves?

The Yes manifesto mentioned this; can you provide any specific examples as to when such a tactic was used, in what circumstances and to what effect?[/QUOTE

+1

People who are calling for a strike miss the point. Strikes work for workers because it denies the country a service. That's what makes the transport workers strong. If university students strike, it's saying we value our free education enough to take a day off. It makes absolutely no sense. It won't be have the government trembling.

1968 wrote: »

1)
2006 - French students striked in 68 out of 89 universities against
government's proposed French Contrat Première Embauche (Contract of First Employment) law, which would have permitted large employers to sack 18-26 year-old workers without notice, and without explanation. The government backed down.

This wasn't solely an educational issue though. The unions were very much involved as it affected the worker's rights.


Even civil disobedience would make more sense than striking. As long as the government isn't consulting with students or the USI, there's a argument to be made for forcing a debate.

mad lad

Tayto2000 wrote: »

So as Breezer pointed out, I have yet to hear a credible suggestion from FEE or indeed the USI as to what should be done about the hole in 3rd level funding. Taking a no to fees position is fine, but I still haven't heard anything beyond that stance... What is being brought to the table?

A publicly funded education system with tuition fees paid for through a progressive tax system. Combine this with programs aimed at adressing the barriers to education at earlier levels (like school rentention initatives, proper language support services, an adequately funded National Educational Welfare Board to reduce truancy, the back to education allowance, childcare grants for VTOs, a decent grant system etc).

The only 2 countries in the OECD that have substantially increased the ratio of people from lower socio-economic backgrounds entering tertiary education are Sweden and the Netherlands - they've done it through taxation. It's empirical, look for any of Clancys stuff in the library on access to education.

If you can provide examples of countries in which the introduction of tuition fees has helped to increase equality of access, I'm all ears.

simonrooneyzaga

panda100 wrote: »

A one day shut down of UCD will have absolutely no effect on your medical studies.
What will is the onslaught of cutbacks medicine students will be facing in the coming months and years.

I heared last week that UCD students now have to find there own surgical and medical roation's in final year? Good luck with that, as (public) hospital teams across the country become more and more burdened and stifled with a lack of resources.

Last week 99% of IMO members balloted in favour of strike action. Medical students must stand with all NCHD's in their strike action. The attacks on their working conditions and training conditions will have an absolutely detremential effect on the education of medical students.

The IMO strike will more than likely coincide with the ICTU national day of action planned for 30th March. As the Yes referendum material states ' The referendum commits the union to work with the staff and their unions to organise this shutdown in conjunction with the staff. A meeting of siptu members in UCD agreed to call for a one day strike,we should work to comnine these actions.If we succeed in having united action,then there wont be a class to miss'.

Medical students instead of bleating pathetic excuses like 'we (the Irish) are hopeless at protesting' should resoundly say yes to this referendum. A shutdown of UCD will demonstrate the enormous power of students, that we can have a say and will have a say in our future.

Many UCD students on boards seem to be in denial about how serious this recession is. This economic crisis will not be over in a year or two,estimates are that it will be at least a decade until we see even a slight bit of economic growth.
So we may be students now, but wether you leave UCD this year or in three years your chances of finding a job will be nil to none.
If we follow breezers suggestion of a graduate tax or full fee's as touted by others on here, this means that innovative, young, well educated people who can give so much to society will be staring into a bleak future of crippling students debts and the dole queue.

If UCD students commit to a 24 hour shutdown of UCD, then education would become a key issue for the goverment with other schools and colleges following suit.

god that must have taken ages to write... Pity nobodies going to read it as its full of sh1te.

delta_bravo

panda100 wrote: »

If we succeed in having united action,then there wont be a class to miss'.

That makes no sense, thats not a strike at all then for students. It would be like getting fired from a job and telling your old boss youre not coming in tomorrow in protest.

El Siglo

panda100 wrote: »

A one day shut down of UCD will have absolutely no effect on your medical studies.
What will is the onslaught of cutbacks medicine students will be facing in the coming months and years.

I heared last week that UCD students now have to find there own surgical and medical roation's in final year? Good luck with that, as (public) hospital teams across the country become more and more burdened and stifled with a lack of resources.

Last week 99% of IMO members balloted in favour of strike action. Medical students must stand with all NCHD's in their strike action. The attacks on their working conditions and training conditions will have an absolutely detremential effect on the education of medical students.

The IMO strike will more than likely coincide with the ICTU national day of action planned for 30th March. As the Yes referendum material states ' The referendum commits the union to work with the staff and their unions to organise this shutdown in conjunction with the staff. A meeting of siptu members in UCD agreed to call for a one day strike,we should work to comnine these actions.If we succeed in having united action,then there wont be a class to miss'.

Medical students instead of bleating pathetic excuses like 'we (the Irish) are hopeless at protesting' should resoundly say yes to this referendum. A shutdown of UCD will demonstrate the enormous power of students, that we can have a say and will have a say in our future.

Many UCD students on boards seem to be in denial about how serious this recession is. This economic crisis will not be over in a year or two,estimates are that it will be at least a decade until we see even a slight bit of economic growth.
So we may be students now, but wether you leave UCD this year or in three years your chances of finding a job will be nil to none.
If we follow breezers suggestion of a graduate tax or full fee's as touted by others on here, this means that innovative, young, well educated people who can give so much to society will be staring into a bleak future of crippling students debts and the dole queue.

If UCD students commit to a 24 hour shutdown of UCD, then education would become a key issue for the goverment with other schools and colleges following suit.

I'm just after reading that and I must say that it's a big pile of sh*te!

The strike, like the protests will do nothing. I guarantee that!
Very simple logic:
Student's are recipients of services,
ergo students (current undergraduates) do not provide a service (yet),
student's don't contribute to the tax base as yet,
therefore, we've no chips to play, the country will still run as usual, and instead of the usual wasters pissing about in the student bar, it'll be 30-40% of the college.
The best course of action is simply lobbying the opposition especially labour considering their popularity.
Try an hold out till the next general election, long time unless there is a vote of no confidence in the government (kind of like what happened in the 80s), so this could be sooner than you think.
If the fees come back, boycott them i.e. this is where you might see the militant types coming out.
Striking now won't have the desired effect.
I was thinking though, for university students, they haven't really produced any groundbreaking ways of 'fighting fees', it's much of the same stuff that was done before, maybe no FEE people but it's nothing spectacular, just an observation.

Tayto2000

mad lad wrote: »

A publicly funded education system with tuition fees paid for through a progressive tax system. Combine this with programs aimed at adressing the barriers to education at earlier levels (like school rentention initatives, proper language support services, an adequately funded National Educational Welfare Board to reduce truancy, the back to education allowance, childcare grants for VTOs, a decent grant system etc).

Most of this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, we are talking about third level tuition here, not Primary and Secondary. I hesitate to use the word in this setting since it gets thrown around so much, but I think that access to free primary and secondary education should be a right. Since there is now a huge hole in the public funds (Which were effectively getting cut every year anyway due to forced increase in student intake without any funding increase), how will taxation cover University funding? There's a reason Brady et al have been driving Universities in more of a commercial money making direction - funding is inadequate. This is highly unlikely to improve anytime soon for obvious reasons.

mad lad wrote: »

The only 2 countries in the OECD that have substantially increased the ratio of people from lower socio-economic backgrounds entering tertiary education are Sweden and the Netherlands - they've done it through taxation. It's empirical, look for any of Clancys stuff in the library on access to education.

I assume you mean Patrick Clancy? I'm not a sociologist and I'm not familiar with the education system in either country, I'll obviously have to do some reading... but I suspect that there's more to that story than 'They don't pay fees'. Perhaps they have proper core 3rd level funding?

mad lad wrote: »

If you can provide examples of countries in which the introduction of tuition fees has helped to increase equality of access, I'm all ears.

Oh, I'm sure that fees don't help to increase equality of access. But free fees hasn't helped either - what's your explanation for the failure of government subsidised fees to increase equality of access here? We've had 12 years of taxpayers subsidising students, why are the majority of students from the same economic background and feeder schools? Numbers are up, but equality of access doesn't come from fees or the lack of them, it has to come from a different direction. Things you mentioned - back to education allowance, childcare grants for VTOs, a decent grant system are good examples which are unconnected to the fees argument.


Panda, 1968 etc - maybe it might be more sensible to call the proposed action a boycott rather than a strike? There's no withdrawal of services, you are disdaining a provided service in protest. But I still haven't heard what the message that will be sent is... If you can't articulate it yourself, why do expect the government to listen?

Dave!

tbh this will just strengthen the belief that students take their education for granted and use any excuse to avoid going to lectures.

If I were bothered I would vote NO.

Notorious

Isn't there talk of both students and lecturers striking on the same day? So in effect wouldn't they both render each other useless? Lecturers strike and refuse to teach, students strike and refuse to learn. If anything, this would just lessen the impact of the lecturers strike since the students won't be there to learn anyway, no?

Breezer

panda100 wrote: »

A one day shut down of UCD will have absolutely no effect on your medical studies.

Ultimately no, but it will inconvenience me in the short term, and I don't see why I should vote for something that will both inconvenience me and have the detrimental effects I've already outlined regarding the message students are sending.

What will is the onslaught of cutbacks medicine students will be facing in the coming months and years.

...

Last week 99% of IMO members balloted in favour of strike action. Medical students must stand with all NCHD's in their strike action. The attacks on their working conditions and training conditions will have an absolutely detremential effect on the education of medical students.

That's not the issue being discussed here.

pathetic excuses like 'we (the Irish) are hopeless at protesting'

That's not an excuse, pathetic or otherwise. It's a statement of fact. We don't pull together behind protesting groups the way the French, for example, do, and I honestly believe a 'strike' will do more harm than good. We should continue, as I have stated, to explore other options in order to make our feelings known.

A shutdown of UCD will demonstrate the enormous power of students, that we can have a say and will have a say in our future.

Again I ask "what power?" If the bus drivers go on strike, the city/country grinds to a standstill. That's power. If students don't go to class, everyone else goes about their business as usual.

Many UCD students on boards seem to be in denial about how serious this recession is.

Quite the opposite. I'm fully aware of how bad it is, and that the government needs to pull in revenue wherever it can. I've already stated on other threads that I believe 3rd level education should be free, and therefore I don't want a ridiculous stunt like this destroying the credibility of the anti-fees campaign, thereby handing the government our education on a plate.

If we follow breezers suggestion of a graduate tax or full fee's as touted by others on here, this means that innovative, young, well educated people who can give so much to society will be staring into a bleak future of crippling students debts and the dole queue.

Panda, please explain your logic here. While I agree with you that full fees will disenfranchise the less well off, I fail to see how paying a proportion of your income in tax, an income that will still be higher than a non-graduate's, for a set period of time, equates to "a bleak future of crippling students debts and the dole queue."

Let me be absolutely clear on this: I do not support blanket fees. I would, faced with the evidence that free fees is no longer sustainable, support a 'graduate tax', if it were to be accompanied by reform of the 3rd level sector, a reform that would benefit students. I see it as a medium to long term measure. If it is brought in now, and it persuades the government to remove blanket fees from the agenda, then as far as I'm concerned that's a victory for everyone.

What I don't support is a stunt that I believe will annoy large numbers of people and put the government off listening to students altogether.

conor2007

whoever came up with or goes along with the student strike idea

does not deserve to continue studying
im sorry
but whatever they have gotten so far obviously hasnt worked in enhancing their

logic

---

in response to the ''show the power of the students'' comment
how? if its a strike from work - yes - it hurts business

in college - you show up and do the work or you don't
a strike will proove nothing - and is embarassing it was even contemplated

?

First, it is the governments responsiblity to provide solutions to the problems facing this country, Cowan get five grand a week for this responsibility he should actually earn it!! For those of you wondering about tax revenue I'll remind you that this govenrment is notorious for getting poor value for money, look at the 180million cost plus contracts secured by the CFI before the last budget and unless you are Paidi O'Shea kissing FF ass in an interview to the Sunday Indo much of the tax revenue from proerty went on some thing called Section 23 http://www.constructireland.ie/articles/0209block.php.

Second here is, again, the link to the referendum manifesto http://www.ucdsu.ie/websitedocs/manifestoes/referendumyes.jpg. Note how it says that the "referendum commits the Union to work with the staff and their unions to organise this shutdown". So they'll be no need to bring in daddy's golf club to violently enter lecturs of dubious value.

Why a shutdown? Well the simple fact of the matter is that FF has accepted theiy'll lose a load of County Council seats that they don't care about and the only march they have reacted to is the pensioner's one. If we show we're willing to join our educators on a shutdown then it shows we're serious enough to get registered and vote.

This 'strike' isn't about depriving ourselves of education, it is about standing in solidarity with those who wish to educate us!

Shorty

Notorious wrote: »

Isn't there talk of both students and lecturers striking on the same day? So in effect wouldn't they both render each other useless? Lecturers strike and refuse to teach, students strike and refuse to learn. If anything, this would just lessen the impact of the lecturers strike since the students won't be there to learn anyway, no?

Wait, how does that work? The teaching staff and education workers are coming out in strike, the students are having a one day "shut down" both in conjunction with and in support of this action, as explicitly stated. Surely by coming out this shows a level of support and also a boost in confidence to the the staff as well as highlighting a common thread between the introduction of fees and the cutbacks the education workers are facing. Perhaps even that there is a mutual benefit and interest in this shared support, some people choose to call this "solidarity".

Most of the 'arguments' on this thread (the majority of them being merely cynical statements of opinion rather than arguments) regarding protest don't actually show the ineffectiveness of protest and direct action but merely that there is a lack of a tradition, history or culture of this in Ireland, and for most students and people under the age of 30, this is true with no experience or conception of it, together with the very particular form of politics in Ireland owing to the particular history of the state. Thankfully culture isn't static but dynamic, fluid and constantly changing through human agency. There are and have been numerous examples used in this thread of protest in general and student protests in particular, covering a wide range of activity, that have actually been successful, however this is up against this very lack of culture, tradition and history as well as the level of Irish insularity where even events in Europe seem alien and strange providing no evidence or argumentative proof of success. In many ways this is ingrained and attitudinal and I'm not sure where to even begin in arguing. The fact that the (potential) national strike on March 30th is a first of sorts in the history of the state rather than the relatively common occurence it is in most other European countries speaks volumes. If and when it happens and hopefully in conjunction with the support of students and parents, we'll see where the argument goes from there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgHobOo9v4Y