Wel all have to take the pain, so what about Corporation Tax?

Darragh29

Apparently we are looking at income tax increases imminently. Grand. Household water charges are also coming along soon apparently, grand. A property tax, grand. 3rd level fees will be coming back apparently, grand.

Now all I'm asking is all those business leaders/owners driving 08 Range Rovers and BMW X5's, and they are the poor one's, what about the extremely wealthy businesses putting Porches and DB9's under their MD's arses. What's the story there???

WHy are we not hearing about a rise in our world leading rate of Corporation Tax which is and has been for many years, a hugely generous 12.5%. How about pushing that up to 15%???

Is our government now that afraid of our various multinational guests in this country, The American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland and Ibec, that we cannot increase Corporation Tax, even though we are now taking 80 Euro a week from Gardai, nurses, etc???

When will we see big businesses shouldering the wheel???

jhegarty

Our low corporation tax is the only reason for most of the multinationals are here.

Increasing it is the last thing the government should do.

Darragh29

jhegarty wrote: »

Our low corporation tax is the only reason for most of the multinationals are here.

Increasing it is the last thing the government should do.

This country is much larger than the multinationals. We can't be pandering to big business to the detriment of the whole economy.

ejmaztec

Darragh29 wrote: »

Apparently we are looking at income tax increases imminently. Grand. Household water charges are also coming along soon apparently, grand. A property tax, grand. 3rd level fees will be coming back apparently, grand.

Now all I'm asking is all those business leaders/owners driving 08 Range Rovers and BMW X5's, and they are the poor one's, what about the extremely wealthy businesses putting Porches and DB9's under their MD's arses. What's the story there???

WHy are we not hearing about a rise in our world leading rate of Corporation Tax which is and has been for many years, a hugely generous 12.5%. How about pushing that up to 15%???

Is our government now that afraid of our various multinational guests in this country, The American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland and Ibec, that we cannot increase Corporation Tax, even though we are now taking 80 Euro a week from Gardai, nurses, etc???

When will we see big businesses shouldering the wheel???

Directors/employees with those get stung good and proper under the Benefits in Kind rules.

Perhaps they should increase Corporation Tax. Paying cheap Corporation Tax was obviously of minimal value to companies like Dell, the low rate not compensating enough for the high labour and other running costs.

BrianD

Darragh29 wrote: »

This country is much larger than the multinationals. We can't be pandering to big business to the detriment of the whole economy.

What else does this nation do? We have no real industry or economic activity now to speak of - especially after 10 years of selling houses to each other. The multinationals create wealth and this wealth is used to buy local goods and services.

DublinWriter

Darragh29 wrote: »

This country is much larger than the multinationals.

I beg to differ.

RealityCheck

Darragh29 wrote: »

This country is much larger than the multinationals. We can't be pandering to big business to the detriment of the whole economy.

That would be all fine and well if we had a sizable real indigenous economy. Most of our economy is built on low corporation tax. Increasing it would'nt amount to that much anyway since most of them are not making much profit. Personally I would be with you if we had a real economy but sadly at this moment we dont. We could however slowly build one but it would take years.

IRLConor

Raising Corporation Tax would hurt more than just the multinationals, it would hurt indigenous Irish business too. Doing that at a time when they're hurting already would be very stupid. Companies providing much-needed jobs need to be protected at all costs.

The other option would be to introduce a higher rate of Corporation Tax for those companies with profits above a certain amount. The catch with this is that the companies with high levels of profits will just move their tax base elsewhere.

I don't think you can raise Corporation Tax and win.

Iwasfrozen

I wouldn't be up for increasing Corporation Tax but instead Taxing more of the Business's profits and paying allmost all of it back with certain "Clawback" restrictions e.g employing a cetain number of people, not leaving the country etc.

hardCopy

We need the multinationals a lot more than they need us, be nice to them because if Microsoft, Pfizer, Intel or Wyeth leave in the morning we really are doomed.

Darragh29

A 15% Corporation Tax rate is still extremely generous. It could be frozen at 15% for the next 5 years to stop MNC's running out of the country.

It seems we all have to take a hit except big businesses. And who bankrolls Fianna Fail??? Big businesses...

Darragh29

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I wouldn't be up for increasing Corporation Tax but instead Taxing more of the Business's profits and paying allmost all of it back with certain "Clawback" restrictions e.g employing a cetain number of people, not leaving the country etc.

Corporation Tax is a tax on company profits, nothing else...

Darragh29

hardCopy wrote: »

We need the multinationals a lot more than they need us, be nice to them because if Microsoft, Pfizer, Intel or Wyeth leave in the morning we really are doomed.

We've seen recently how fickle they can be.

eoinbn

"Now all I'm asking is all those business leaders/owners driving 08 Range Rovers and BMW X5's"

It sounds like you are talking about small/local businesses who probably don't even qualify for corporation tax.

It's certainly something that shouldn't be rushed into, but everything should be considered going forward.

Darragh29

eoinbn wrote: »

"Now all I'm asking is all those business leaders/owners driving 08 Range Rovers and BMW X5's"

It sounds like you are talking about small/local businesses who probably don't even qualify for corporation tax.

It's certainly something that shouldn't be rushed into, but everything should be considered going forward.

Well if you are a corporate body and make a profit, you have a Corporation Tax liability. I don't see why this cannot be increased in a fair and equitable way...

RealityCheck

Darragh29 wrote: »

It seems we all have to take a hit except big businesses. And who bankrolls Fianna Fail??? Big businesses...

Yes but they are mostly property developers not multinationals. And anyway all the property developers are broke and hence we have the banking farce.

lostexpectation

your damn right, if everybody has to take the pain everybody hast to take the pain, that what he's said, including corporations, what other taxes do business pay? er rates, they have gone up havn't there in some places.


i beleive an impact spokesperson made the OP's point on tv3's political party last week.

seriously what if we'd reduced are corporation tax at the time to 13% instead of the 12.5%

would the world come crumbling down like everyone likes to say it would.

anonymous_joe

Darragh29 wrote: »

Now all I'm asking is all those business leaders/owners driving 08 Range Rovers and BMW X5's, and they are the poor one's, what about the extremely wealthy businesses putting Porches and DB9's under their MD's arses. What's the story there???

Why are you mentioning their cars? What's the point of that?

Low corporate tax is what fuelled a lot of our economy, raising it would be akin to economic suicide at a time when we're in enough bother as it is.

If the minimum wage gets lowered to account for certain reduced living costs then our economy can recover sooner and more people can get jobs.

Berti Vogts

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well if you are a corporate body and make a profit, you have a Corporation Tax liability. I don't see why this cannot be increased in a fair and equitable way...

Because, like it or not, we would be cutting off our nose to spite our face. Maybe it was set too low in the past but raising it would send out all the wrong signals to the investment community which we hear so much about.

The average small company in Ireland also has to deal with close company rules so it is not as simple as saying that they are all taxed at 12.5%. They also have to get the money out of the company and pay themselves a salary which is taxed like anyone else.

hardCopy

Darragh29 wrote: »

We've seen recently how fickle they can be.

Which is exactly why we can't afford to p*ss them off. Unfortunately we can't afford to be fair or equitable these days.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Berti Vogts

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't think it would go down too well in Washington

silverharp

Darragh29 wrote: »

A 15% Corporation Tax rate is still extremely generous. It could be frozen at 15% for the next 5 years to stop MNC's running out of the country.

It seems we all have to take a hit except big businesses. And who bankrolls Fianna Fail??? Big businesses...

you just seem to want to punish a particular group to make you feel good. Transferring wealth from the private sector to the state is a destruction of wealth and would destroy more jobs. Also given transfer pricing you would start loosing the free money the state gets.

You should really be thinking about how to make the "pie" bigger instead of moving deckchairs around the hmm...I'll leave the Titanic reference out for now:pac:

RealityCheck

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It might work if we reduce the cost of doing business here by about 30% Competitiveness is key.

Darragh29

lostexpectation wrote: »

your damn right, if everybody has to take the pain everybody hast to take the pain, that wha the's said, including corporations, what other taxes do business pay? er rates, they have gone up havn't there in some places.


i beleive an impact spokesperson made the OP's point on tv3's political party last week.

seriously what if we'd reduced are corporation tax at the time to 13% instead of the 12.5%

would the world come crumbling down like everyone likes to say it would.

+1

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Why are you mentioning their cars? What's the point of that?

Low corporate tax is what fuelled a lot of our economy, raising it would be akin to economic suicide at a time when we're in enough bother as it is.

If the minimum wage gets lowered to account for certain reduced living costs then our economy can recover sooner and more people can get jobs.

Because it is a sign of wealth. If you can afford trophy cars, you cannot argue that a 2.5% rise in CT would kill your business...

Possibilities wrote: »

Because, like it or not, we would be cutting off our nose to spite our face. Maybe it was set too low in the past but raising it would send out all the wrong signals to the investment community which we hear so much about.

The average small company in Ireland also has to deal with close company rules so it is not as simple as saying that they are all taxed at 12.5%. They also have to get the money out of the company and pay themselves a salary which is taxed like anyone else.

We could send out a clear signal that we will not increase it again within 5 years and that would address those concerns about sending out the wrong signals. I can't understand your argument above about close company rules, etc. CT is 12.5% for all companies, regardless of size.

Iwasfrozen

Corporation Tax is a tax on company profits, nothing else...

Which is why I'm proposing a change...

Darragh29

RealityCheck wrote: »

It might work if we reduce the cost of doing business here by about 30% Competitiveness is key.

There ya go, excellent idea... Win-win...

Berti Vogts

Darragh29 wrote: »

We could send out a clear signal that we will not increase it again within 5 years and that would address those concerns about sending out the wrong signals. I can't understand your argument above about close company rules, etc. CT is 12.5% for all companies, regardless of size.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/ct/close-companies.html.

Have a read.

turgon

What a ridiculous suggestion.

RealityCheck

Darragh29 wrote: »

There ya go, excellent idea... Win-win...

No it isnt. It will never happen. The fact is we need to reduce wage costs by a massive amount. But how can that be done when so many have bought into the pyramid scheme that was the housing boom? People still have to pay mortgages on the value of the houses when they bought them. I honestly cannot see any credible alternative in centre right politics. The only real alternative is an all out revolution:)

Darragh29

Possibilities wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/ct/close-companies.html.

Have a read.

I still don't get your point, what has that got to do with Corporation Tax??? Profit is still profit, tax on profit is still tax on profit.... What you are referring to there is how Revenue deal with taxation of loans to directors or loans that are forgiven or taxation of distributions to shareholders. If a company makes 100,000 Euro profit, it has a Corporation Tax liability at the moment of 12,500 Euro. This remains the case regardless of whether the company is a "close company" or otherwise. What I'm suggesting is that if we upped the CT liability to 15K per 100K profit, I don't see how this cannot be interpreted being a positive contribution towards our economic renewal and recovery.

Of course all the vested interests will come out and say, "that is sending out the wrong signals", grand, fix the new rate for 5 or 10 years, end of argument...

Berti Vogts

Darragh29 wrote: »

I still don't get your point, what has that got to do with Corporation Tax??? Profit is still profit, tax on profit is still tax on profit.... What you are referring to there is how Revenue deal with taxation of loans to directors or loans that are forgiven or taxation of distributions to shareholders. If a company makes 100,000 Euro profit, it has a Corporation Tax liability at the moment of 12,500 Euro. This remains the case regardless of whether the company is a "close company" or otherwise. What I'm suggesting is that if we upped the CT liability to 15K per 100K profit, I don't see how this cannot be interpreted being a positive contribution towards our economic renewal and recovery.

Of course all the vested interests will come out and say, "that is sending out the wrong signals", grand, fix the new rate for 5 or 10 years, end of argument...

"A surcharge of 20% is payable on the total undistributed investment and rental income of a close company. Close "service" companies are also liable to a surcharge of 15% on one-half of their undistributed trading income".

What part of that paragraph is unclear?

Nodin

Darragh29 wrote: »

Apparently we are looking at income tax increases imminently. Grand. Household water charges are also coming along soon apparently, grand. A property tax, grand. 3rd level fees will be coming back apparently, grand.

Now all I'm asking is all those business leaders/owners driving 08 Range Rovers and BMW X5's, and they are the poor one's, what about the extremely wealthy businesses putting Porches and DB9's under their MD's arses. What's the story there???

WHy are we not hearing about a rise in our world leading rate of Corporation Tax which is and has been for many years, a hugely generous 12.5%. How about pushing that up to 15%???

Seems reasonable.

Berti Vogts

Darragh29 wrote: »

Of course all the vested interests will come out and say, "that is sending out the wrong signals", grand, fix the new rate for 5 or 10 years, end of argument...

The vested interests like those working in MNCs?

bmaxi

Obama is already talking about increasing taxes on U.S. companies who send jobs abroad. The main reason U.S. companies operate here is low corporation tax, coupled with access to the E.U., it is our major selling point.
I think it would be disastrous to increase it and when the details of Obama's intentions are known, we really should be lowering it to compensate.

Darragh29

Possibilities wrote: »

"A surcharge of 20% is payable on the total undistributed investment and rental income of a close company. Close "service" companies are also liable to a surcharge of 15% on one-half of their undistributed trading income".

What part of that paragraph is unclear?

I'm not talking about undistributed investment of rental income, or surcharges of 15% on one half of undistributed trading income. I'm talking about Corporation Tax and nothing else. Please read the thread title.

vinylbomb

Darragh29 wrote: »

Because it is a sign of wealth. If you can afford trophy cars, you cannot argue that a 2.5% rise in CT would kill your business...

For every person driving an X5 (IMHO they are mainly self employed - builders, publicans etc) theres a dozen more driving Civics or Focus' or Datsuns or whatever. And you can be guaranteed that in some way/shape/form they are reliant on multinationals being present here. Raise corporation tax and its those people who end up losing their job, because you erode the profit margins of their employer, which is already probably wafer thin given our lack of competitive-ness.

Its a ill-thought suggestion that kinda sounds a bit lefty to me.

Berti Vogts

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm not talking about undistributed investment of rental income, or surcharges of 15% on one half of undistributed trading income. I'm talking about Corporation Tax and nothing else. Please read the thread title.

They go completely hand in hand. It is disingenuous to ignore it.

Darragh29

Possibilities wrote: »

The vested interests like those working in MNCs?

I used to work for an MNC. These companies can well afford to pay. Of course they will tell you that they can't but the truth is that they can. 15% CT is still extremely generous. Cowen is telling us that those who can afford to pay more will be shouldering the greater burden. As usual he is talking the talk but cannot walk the walk and talking out of both sides of his gob again.

Darragh29

Possibilities wrote: »

They go completely hand in hand. It is disingenuous to ignore it.

They don't and this isn't the economics forum. A company at the end of a financial year has a net profit that is subject to Corporation Tax. This is currently taxable at 12.5%. It seems that every tax heading will be increased except this particular tax. I don't think that this is fair...

Berti Vogts

Darragh29 wrote: »

They don't and this isn't the economics forum. A company at the end of a financial year has a net profit that is subject to Corporation Tax. This is currently taxable at 12.5%. It seems that every tax heading will be increased except this particular tax. I don't think that this is fair...

For god's sake, it's a form of CT...change the record.

Raising CT would be daft and counter productive.

Mr.Micro

Darragh29 wrote: »

I used to work for an MNC. These companies can well afford to pay. Of course they will tell you that they can't but the truth is that they can. 15% CT is still extremely generous. Cowen is telling us that those who can afford to pay more will be shouldering the greater burden. As usual he is talking the talk but cannot walk the walk and talking out of both sides of his gob again.

Too right, he will have to check with the golden circle and the cronies before he does anything that might affect them.

IRLConor

Darragh29 wrote: »

I used to work for an MNC. These companies can well afford to pay. Of course they will tell you that they can't but the truth is that they can. 15% CT is still extremely generous.

It doesn't matter whether the MNCs can or can't afford to pay. They don't want to and when you're that big you get to choose where you pay your tax. Raise the tax by enough and they'll move, it's not like they have a negative-equity mortgage and kids in school to keep them here. :rolleyes:

Darragh29

Failure to make companies pay more is to continue pandering to businesses. Pandering to vested interests is what has us in this complete mess. I didn't see a box to tick for Microsoft or Google on the ballot sheet last time I voted.

We ALL have to chip in here and take some of the pain, only apparently YET AGAIN, except for the wealthy.

Berti Vogts

Darragh29 wrote: »

Failure to make companies pay more is to continue pandering to businesses. Pandering to vested interests is what has us in this complete mess. I didn't see a box to tick for Microsoft or Google on the ballot sheet last time I voted.

We ALL have to chip in here and take some of the pain, only apparently YET AGAIN, except for the wealthy.

Yeah, lets tell all them MNCs to go where the sun don't shine:rolleyes:

Darragh29

IRLConor wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether the MNCs can or can't afford to pay. They don't want to and when you're that big you get to choose where you pay your tax. Raise the tax by enough and they'll move, it's not like they have a negative-equity mortgage and kids in school to keep them here. :rolleyes:

None of us want to pay more tax, it's time to get real and if we are going to bother fixing this mess in the first place, then everyone is going to have to contribute. That means increases in EVERY tax heading. Businesses cannot be allowed to call the shots here, I'm saying this as a business owner. We can't continue pandering to vested interests that threaten us. If you don't want to stay here, fine, go back to the US where the Corporation Tax rate is over 30%.

This is what has brought us here, a politcal class that has pandered to every whim and cry of businesses. Now we are nearly broke. It's time to grab the liarodi's and get back in control of the bridge again.

IRLConor

Darragh29 wrote: »

Failure to make companies pay more is to continue pandering to businesses. Pandering to vested interests is what has us in this complete mess.

"Pandering to businesses" -> "Pandering to vested interests".

I see what you did there.

Yes, pandering to vested interests is a bad thing. Pandering to all business, in a non-discriminatory way, is precisely what the government should be doing. We desperately need more jobs in this country and punishing those who create jobs is not the way to go about it.

Darragh29

Possibilities wrote: »

Yeah, lets tell all them MNCs to go where the sun don't shine:rolleyes:

No, let's communicate to them that they have had it extremely extremely well for the last 15 years in Ireland. We now have a major problem with the economy that requires them to contribute a bit more. We will continue to make Ireland a low tax economy for companies, and when things are looking better, we will lower the rate again. We won't rise it above 15% betweeen now and 2019, so they don't have to worry about us inching the CT rate up to 30% plus. Fair is fair lads, when times are good, you made a killing, now we need to face up to reality and revisit the figures for a few years.

Pride Fighter

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Ireland_tax_comparision.jpg

Interesting graph there. But the nations our corporation tax rate are compared to have a huge indigenous manufacturing base. As we have no indigenous industry or natural resources our corporation tax has to be low to attract investment. We should lower it to 10% IMO. I know it is a liberal economic move but a certain amount of liberal economics are necessary to create wealth, wealth which in turn will provide free medical cards for over 65's and under 18's and a comprehensive health insurance plan for those working.

IRLConor

Darragh29 wrote: »

None of us want to pay more tax,

True, but most of us don't get a choice.

I do, since I have no mortgage, no kids and a skillset that's still in demand. I can move if the tax burden here becomes onerous. Most people aren't that lucky though.

The bigger the company, the more likely they'll be in the position to bugger off.

Why are you so fixated on raising taxes though? Surely it would make sense to reduce government expenditure instead? At least that way you don't put as many jobs at risk!

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm saying this as a business owner.

And I'm saying this as someone who used to be a business owner. Corporations have no loyalties to countries, they'll move to wherever suits their interests best. You can't say:

Darragh29 wrote:

Fair is fair lads, when times are good, you made a killing, now we need to face up to reality and revisit the figures for a few years.

and honestly expect them to stay! Do you really believe that they think that they owe Ireland something?

eoinbn

Darragh29 wrote: »

Failure to make companies pay more is to continue pandering to businesses. Pandering to vested interests is what has us in this complete mess. I didn't see a box to tick for Microsoft or Google on the ballot sheet last time I voted.

We ALL have to chip in here and take some of the pain, only apparently YET AGAIN, except for the wealthy.

You aren't thinking this one through.

Microsoft/Google/Dell/Intel etc didn't elect the clowns in FF that got us into this mess, so why should they be 'putting their shoulder to the wheel'? If we try and get mobile multi-nationals to pay for our wn mistakes then they will show us how mobile they really can be. Lets not forget it was these companies that got our country up and running, before FF starting pumping it with steroids.

edit: It's not like these companies are making a forunate atm. Some of the worlds biggest companies are really struggling atm and laying off tens of thousands. Raising taxs on companies that are losing money isn't going to improve our finances and will just make them think twice about relocating so that they can maximise profits when the world economy comes back. The best thing we can do is to make sure that when it comes back that our costs are down so that we can compete for the jobs that these companies will be offering.