How often would you like to play milsim.

hrta

After reading this post, by DOC, it got me thinking, how often would you like to see a milsim game run.

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

I'm a milsim lover no doubt about it.

I always say that airsoft would be a better game if there was ammo limits everywhere in every game, and that midcaps where the standard.

It is just not going to materialise anytime soon.

I think its sad personally, that I now HAVe to bring hicaps to a weekend skirmish, because if I keep my midcaps, I get hockeyed around, and I'm sick of reloading them so often.

Milsim is what airsoft is all about. I maybe still newish to the game ( 1 year airsoft in a week or two :P) But from the start I felt milsim was what airsoft was. It wasnt box mags, it wasnt drum mags, it wasnt 25rps guns. It was realistic scenarios, realistic tactics and medic rules, ammo limit and midcaps.

I've experienced a brief introduction to milsim here in Ireland, largely thanks to paul and those who write the scripts for the games. I went to PR2, and frankly, airsoft has been ****e since i came back. I have long considered stopping playing, to play only milsim, cause ive a pain in my tits with normal skirmishing, the box mags, the cheating, the general ****e that goes along with it.

Masada

I'd play milsim every weekend if i could. I'm not that keen on typical skirmishing anymore really,.,:)

Puding

as much as i can, and lucky enough to get milsim most weekends:D

Hivemind187

I'll be up to the site tomoro and I'm happy to run a few Conquest games ... maybe even a few scenario games if people are up for it.

Dread-Lock

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I'll be up to the site tomoro and I'm happy to run a few Conquest games ... maybe even a few scenario games if people are up for it.

I wouldn't say no to that.
MilSim is the reason I got into airsoft.

c-90

not that i go to hrta that much but u never know,

in my opinion milsim is why airsoft started and the usual "capture the flag" type skirmishes played usually are down to lack of planning and effort and games are tought up in a few minutes on the spot.

most players i know would love for airsoft to be 100% milsim and, we try to keep it that way. :cool:

Dar

MilSim is great fun, but I still love skirmishing though. I prefer games with ammo limits though, it makes for a more dynamic game.

Still though, unlike Doc, it'll be a cold day in hell before I start using high caps .

sci-ops

While I agree with what is being said and the fact that I would love to play milsim every time, I think it's a sad truth at the minute that most people don't have mid-caps (or at least not many). Why do I say that? Well, just about every AEG is sold with at least 1 hi-cap magazine. Most people who want to skirmish, will buy at least 1 more mag, usually hi-cap, because they don't know better at the time and turn up at various sites around the country to find most people using hi-caps. I blame the retailers:P

Killinator

I dont see a problem with high-caps in milsim games as long as you could carry only one or two mags(depending on capacity), the winding generally takes longer than putting in a new mag anyway,
I wanted mids for my m16, but there wasnt a single site with them in stock when i needed them

Masada

thats very true, although i remember having similar conversations about a year ago when there were even less people using midcap magazines, theres a lot more people using them nowadays.,

c-90

Killinator wrote: »

I dont see a problem with high-caps in milsim games as long as you could carry only one or two mags(depending on capacity), the winding generally takes longer than putting in a new mag anyway,
I wanted mids for my m16, but there wasnt a single site with them in stock when i needed them

hit the nail on the head there lad. ammo limits arent the most important factor for milsims

TheDoc

I'm not going to bore people and make their eyes squint with another post.

Everyone knows how I feel, and friends know how I feel about airsoft in Ireland.

At the end of the day it is what airsoft started as, its what airsoft is ment to be. Its not a niche game for elitists, it is what airsoft was created for, and what it is ment to be.

Airsoft is young here in Ireland, but already, we have turned it into a glorified paintball session on a weekend, where we mill through thousands of rounds like trigger happy mad men, capturing flags like we are playing halo.

When was the last game you played, where a team mate got hit, you you laid down a perimeter around him, and dragged him to cover, and applied a bandage.

When is the last time you got hit in the arm, and had to wield your gun single handedly until a medic got to you to heal you.

When was the last time you started ****ting yourself as you realised youd 10 rounds left, with 3 targets coming towards you.

I betcha it is far and few between. "Skirmish, skirmishsoft or airball is what we play every week. Airsoft is Milsim, it is not a skirmish.

We have endorsed a laxy daisy, repetitive, casual boring style of Airsoft that has become the norm. Play airsoft in any other country and you will see what I mean.

Milsim should not be a monthly event you look foward to, it should be the reason you strap on your boots and slap a mag in every weekend.

TheDoc

sci-ops wrote: »

While I agree with what is being said and the fact that I would love to play milsim every time, I think it's a sad truth at the minute that most people don't have mid-caps (or at least not many). Why do I say that? Well, just about every AEG is sold with at least 1 hi-cap magazine. Most people who want to skirmish, will buy at least 1 more mag, usually hi-cap, because they don't know better at the time and turn up at various sites around the country to find most people using hi-caps. I blame the retailers:P

Midcaps dont make milsim, although it very much helps, its more about the game type, the style of play.

In countries where milsim is the norm, cheating is a complete non existent myth.

In countries that are prodominatly skirmish countries, cheating is widespread, much like here.

StevieGriff

Its the realism that is attracting me to airsoft, and when I see videos of some yobbo with a C mag in a G36c spraying and praying it kinda turns me off and levels the differences between airsoft and paintball.

Masada

Killinator wrote: »

I dont see a problem with high-caps in milsim games as long as you could carry only one or two mags(depending on capacity), the winding generally takes longer than putting in a new mag anyway,
I wanted mids for my m16, but there wasnt a single site with them in stock when i needed them

See, you could say theres a disadvantage to having to wind the magazines, but sure that can be done before the game and a hicap will feed the majority of its contents on a single full wind.

Theres a distinct advantage to using hicaps, simply because if i am shooting at you and im using midcaps, i can run out pretty quick since ive less per mag, and i have to duck and cover, reload and attack again, whereas the guy with the hicaps has most of his ammo pooled into less mags, so can suppress for other players for longer.

Rob2593

i think once a month or once every 2 weeks something like that, its a good idea i have to say

DisasterIRL

To be honest, I would love to see more of these games, I don't think I would like average skirmishes to be replaced but they are so much fun

I was playing a single shot only game in fingal and it was great! The people that would usually dominate the game where left helpless as people moved more tactically and with more care for what they where doing.

I used to bring 6000 bb's to a skirmish and use them easily, since then I have started using single shot(when my gun allows it) more and careful bursts, I still do enjoy opening up(usually on people with invisible forcefields) but there is no need, I have gotten better at aiming and enjoying the game more

Down to just over 3000 pellets now :P
Not great but an improvement

Gatling

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

Midcaps dont make milsim, although it very much helps, its more about the game type, the style of play.

In countries where milsim is the norm, cheating is a complete non existent myth.

In countries that are prodominatly skirmish countries, cheating is widespread, much like here.

ok you want proper milsim ok who counts the 30bbs in the say 10 mags a realistic loadout should be , thats milsim, tactics ,loadouts,games
considering airsoft has been played since the 50's seem a lot of people must have missed some thing ,airsoft is a sport in various forms
ok we have the bog standard skirmishers who play for a bit of craic,
the milsimers who want realism but not going the whole hog,
then there the just turn up and shoot guys who dont give a toss either way ,

now ive only started getting into milsim ,conseidering first couple of skirmishes went through 10,000bbs:eek::eek:
now if i skirmish 3000 will last a few weeks ,

id like t see proper weekends of milsim ,with 2 large teams broken down into squads , each with proper commandand and control comms,
battle load outs ,missions ,

being that were still a young sport splitting into various fractions is typical of everything here ,somebody said it at rathbeggan last weekend ,being irish we can just do something we have to split everything up first ,

there is a future for milsim here hopefuly a big future ,

im hoping to see sites going milsim for a full weekend once a month,

as for cheaters its in all airsoft not just standard skirmishes , just ask anybody its the same names everyweekend ,same teams ,some are so call milsimer's
till people grasp Honour is the key word in airsoft we will always have cheats

Busta Hyman

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

When was the last game you played, where a team mate got hit, you you laid down a perimeter around him, and dragged him to cover, and applied a bandage.

apart from that .... id love to see you haul my fat arse towards cover in order to get me healed lolz.

but ive never done milsim but i do think its the way to move forward. in the WH im useing less and less rounds as weeks progress

TheDoc

Gatling wrote: »

ok you want proper milsim ok who counts the 30bbs in the say 10 mags a realistic loadout should be , thats milsim, tactics ,loadouts,games

Milsim gives a whole different aura and attracts a whole different type of person. It is where "honour" came form. There is about as much "honour" in irish airsoft as there was "honour" in the British Empire using rifles to fight Zulus.

I'd trust everyone in a milsim to have all the correct ammo loaded. Cause we are all there, wanting to be as realistic as possible, to enact, to do "military simulation"

Stretching that down the line, in places where milsim is king, everyone has real caps, so that eradicates that problem.

Beast ASI

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

It is where "honour" came form. There is about as much "honour" in irish airsoft as there was "honour" in the British Empire using rifles to fight Zulus.

Eh? Your suggesting that the British Empire should not have used guns to fight Zulu's and should have fought them hand to hand? :rolleyes:

It's a tactical advantage, you could apply the same to airsoft. Brits = Hicap/Boxmag users, Zulu's = Midcaps/Lowcaps. I mean, I would like to get rid of hicaps completely if it was possible but obviously you have to play within the rules of the game - It's the "rules" that would need to be tightened in that case as hicap users would just be using what they can to their advantage.

StevieGriff

But you cant really expect everyone to have a full stock of reaal caps, espically newbs like myself.. Airsoft isnt exactly a cheap sport to play.

Gatling

StevieGriff wrote: »

But you cant really expect everyone to have a full stock of reaal caps, espically newbs like myself.. Airsoft isnt exactly a cheap sport to play.

considering the state of play in the economy ,its going to be a bit of an ask ,
but it just need some time and some people with experiance running the events ,
more and more people will want to get involved , in the milsim side of the sport ,have to miss milsim sunday and phoenix rising ,:mad::mad::mad:

milsim offers a totaly new way to play airsoft ,

so please please vote more milsim

Hivemind187

Gatling wrote: »

considering airsoft has been played since the 50's ...

waitaminute ... whut?

Gatling

Hivemind187 wrote: »

waitaminute ... whut?

you woud have to be lurking wouldnt ya :p ok being around in some form or another since the 50's but not in the way we know it:)

Masada

Theres no need for this thread to go the route of "cheaters blah blah, bullet proof people, terminator" etc etc...
We all know there are a small number of people out there that want to win at all costs, even loss of respect. but that has nothing to do with regular skirmishing or milsim, no matter what game, these same types will cheat.

Me personally, I don't mind loosing. its the small battles within the game i really enjoy and a player can have 10 victory's in there yet still be the loosing side.

Milsim isn't as expensive as some would believe too, You'll pick up a box or about 7 midcaps from ehobby for about 30 quid. you don't need real caps at all. mids are the same only you have the option of high capacity. This, coupled with the fact that you wont be blatting out €20 worth or ammunition in a single days gaming makes milsim a wiser choice.

I know milsim wouldn't be to all players tastes, especially the new guys who are just enthusiastic to shoot people, but it would be great even to bring in a kind of semi-milsim for a game or two during weekend skirmishing. this could involve the use hicaps and whatever loadouts etc,

To make it more tactical we could have generous but not ridiculouslt tight ammo limits, maybe semi auto only games, holding multiple stragic points so your team are streched out and has to be tactical against the enemy etc. Mostly stuff we have tried before and has worked well. ROE was yet another really enjoyable experience and added a lot to the game. having to think before shooting at someone and knowing there's consequences for f&*k ups makes the whole game far more intense and enjoyable.

Dr_Pepper

Heres my 2 cents, its one of the old irish ones, hence its rather large size.

Speedball airsoft exists and has been bred into airsoft as it is. I recall many times hearing people boast that they have gone through 12,000 rounds in 1 day etc. Its not going anywhere so i'm not going to be against it.

I started playing in old HRTA 1, when i had 1 aeg, 1 battery and 4 midcaps.
Now it wasn't "MilSim" but by god it was emersive. I absolutely HAD to rely on the guy next to me, this lead me to form a team. God the games after that were some of the best games i have ever played. Myself, Dar and Boru splitting up and taking the noobs and regulars (yes Robster too), and co-ordinating attacks, defenses and these games were 100% EPIC.

Nowadays i have more mags than i can carry, more batteries than i use and more money to blag on ammo. But its not what got me in the first place. The emersion, the feeling as DOC pointed out fo "oh ****, i have 3 bb's left and 5 ppl coming at me" the "oh **** im F***ed! feeling, only to be saved by a wanderer who had your back the whole time". These were the reasons to play airsoft for me.

Having said that i still play, but i change it up. Each time i go to HRTA i try to run more "interesting" games, i.e 300 rounds, no silly "bang kills", single shot indoors etc. And each time i have done this, usually the second half of Sunday, it has been greatly received.

I belive its up to the marshals to change the games, to liven things up. A Marshall is not there to enforce rules, its a game of honor so there should be no need, but rather the marshal is there to help the game flow, to make it interesting.

I believe this would reduce the speedsoft approach to a skirmish. If this happened there would be no need for milsim each week which is 100% emersion, and the "void" or "elitist" nonsense would also disappear.

Admittedly so would stubby's with boxmags, but i don't think i'm the only one who would approve.

Masada

Death to the Stubby Boxmag!

Thrain

I ordered some mid caps from eirsoft last week, expecting them this week. 8 mags(100rd) for 54.99 or something? Not to be sniffed at, and they're spring mags, so no winding and no rattle! Win!

Stercus Accidit

Milsim means military simulation.

Who the fcuk airsofts to simulate counter strike with some infinite ammo cheat?

nerdiest analogy yet

amaughan

milsim is the only way myself and my team play airsoft.we only play skirmish style if someone requests it.this is because airsoft is ment to be milsim it was invented for this reason.the only problem we have when organising a milsim game is people turning up with high caps.it defeats the purpose of the game altogether.we go to an extent as to stock up a rediculus amount of real and mid caps to try and equip as many people as possible with the correct gear to save the game.what i propose is the setting up of a milsimmers thread for only the people that are able to milsim with the correct gear and state of mind.this would be good for arranging trips to any of the sites both in ireland and brittain.

Fallschirmjager

here is my tuppence worth,

i like milsim, but first and foremost i want to have a laugh. The last thing i want is someone shouting orders...if i want that i can get paid for it between monday to friday in work.

The issue with milsim is quite clearly demonstrated here. Some want midcaps and some other seem to be pushing for realcaps. Some will want military meals, some will want burgers, some will want diesel to burn half barrels of crap, some will want a flush toilet. Dramatic i know but good for an example.. I do agree with what Masada and Doc said, it does breed a real level of honesty. Getting caught cheating at that level you become a pariah and you tarnish your team name as well.

I think milsim (emphasis on the SIM part) is where the real fun begins but we do need to be mindful that it can easily become a very elitist game one that does not welcome new players very well because there is a huge hill to climb in learning fire and mave , audio and visual calls, playing mode, cover tactics etc etc etc.

personally i like both types of play. some times a good blast off is a laughing riot. However i believe milsim is actually what everyone will want to finally play in airsoft, but they have to find their own way there themselves and at their own rate.

I suppose a concern i would have and I have seen this happen before and indeed with some teams here already is they become an exclusive club, one that does not 'suffer fools' like new players or occasional players. One of the saddest things i saw was a guy ranting during the whole break in play at hrta about a new guy and how he didnt play properly. I have no idea how to avoid that other then for all teams to be very aware of it. The objective of airsoft should always remain fun, i think if you find that the milsim option is moving to a point where it does no longer appear to be fun for anyone around you or outside your team, then may i politely suggest you join the army and get paid for the real thing.

I voted 'once a month'. I think that will allow us to have huge flexibility in new players and still allow people to experience the real thing. as for high caps, personally i dont like them but i do own a few and i do bring them. 90% of the time i use mid caps and depending on the game play i can switch to hi-caps if the game needs it. As for the cost, sure getting mid caps can be expensive, but it is definitely worth it. The way i did it was to buy a mid cap any time i was buying something. Perhaps that is a sales opportunity for the suppliers here (i hope they are reading this)?? The real metal mid caps are 15-17 dollars and if you have an order wont add too much to the cost of a shipment. You would be surprised how quickly they build up. The other way is to use a hi cap, give it a full wind and empty it of all surplus rounds or leave it full and replace it with another hicap from your vest to simulate the mag changing requirement. The other good thing is limited rounds per game really force people to be more cautious and indeed in these times of recession if you go from 12,000 rounds a day to 1,000 that will pay for your mid caps and make you huge savings in the short and medium term.

Milsim will encourage us to new levels in the game, like communications, both radio and visual. PErhaps we need as amaughan has said a milsim thread to distribute ideas like comms, hand signals (cue...swat hand signal cartoon joke that did the rounds here a while ago!) and will let us get some really great games and rules in place.

OzCam

A most excellent post, Falls.

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

Some want midcaps and some other seem to be pushing for realcaps.

I've spent a fortune on midcaps, so I won't be buying any realcaps even if they're actually available. I'm, well, not exactly happy, but prepared to load only 30rd into them for certain games if necessary. If that's not good enough, sorry but the organiser will be losing a customer. Let's be at least semi-realistic about this lads.

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

believe milsim is actually what everyone will want to finally play in airsoft, but they have to find their own way there themselves and at their own rate.

I agree completely. Although I voted for twice a month, that's probably not really sustainable, and then only if HRTA specialise in MilSim. I don't think it will work if every site tries to do it so often. So maybe once a month per site is doable, especially if they can arrange the dates not to clash. Ahem. Then everyone will get the type of game they like somewhere, without too many of the type they don't like.

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

The objective of airsoft should always remain fun, i think if you find that the milsim option is moving to a point where it does no longer appear to be fun for anyone around you or outside your team, then may i politely suggest you join the army and get paid for the real thing.

Hear hear.

Remember the Sim. The advantage of not joining a real army is that you don't have to put up with the dren and poor wages that real soldiers do. And you can put the gun away and go back to real life any time you like. We all need to remember that.

I don't see the benefit of a special thread, it'll just get poisoned with arguments about purity. If you want to participate in MilSim discussion there are plenty of threads already, especially the threads for events like PR and Berget.

Hivemind187

Well if people are genuinely up for it I'll sort something out with Paul to get a regular MilSim night running at HRTA.

A weeknight, most likely a Tuesday or Wednesday from around 6pm to 9-10pm?

Shiva

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Well if people are genuinely up for it I'll sort something out with Paul to get a regular MilSim night running at HRTA.

A weeknight, most likely a Tuesday or Wednesday from around 6pm to 9-10pm?

I'd get back into weekeday skirmishing for that. Summers a-comin

Dave Joyce

Interesting thread, especially for a newbie like me:o, but although I haven't had a chance to get to a skirmish yet, I would like to get to one asap. However, I gotta agree with a lot of Falls post and although I would far prefer the idea of Milsim (as someone who hasn't even been to a skirmish yet:rolleyes:), newbies have to find their way to that way of play or a lot of people MAY be put off the sport altogether.

G3-Nut

look lads i know its only a minority down here in the south east, but if you guys held the milsim games only on weekdays wed never really see one, so would there be milsim games on some weekends too??

Hivemind187

G3-Nut wrote: »

look lads i know its only a minority down here in the south east, but if you guys held the milsim games only on weekdays wed never really see one, so would there be milsim games on some weekends too??

I dont see why not. There is a HRTA MilSim day coming up soon but if you mean a regular day-long skirmish on a weekend you'd have to ask Paul - I doubt very much he would be opposed to the idea.

G3-Nut

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I dont see why not. There is a HRTA MilSim day coming up soon but if you mean a regular day-long skirmish on a weekend you'd have to ask Paul - I doubt very much he would be opposed to the idea.

lol i meant milsim on weekends, like because of our transport and location, technically, we can never make plans, there was times where i found out on the morning of going, that we werent going lol...thats why the PK thinks im such a bad bailer, technically, i never definatley am going lol , so i dont even no if i can make it to this milsim, even though im planning, on doing so, i cant give names to paul because the lads could get put on duty or anyhting and i would have no transport:o

so hopefully, one day i make it up there, it will be a milsim day

Hivemind187

G3-Nut wrote: »

lol i meant milsim on weekends, like because of our transport and location, technically, we can never make plans, there was times where i found out on the morning of going, that we werent going lol...thats why the PK thinks im such a bad bailer, technically, i never definatley am going lol , so i dont even no if i can make it to this milsim, even though im planning, on doing so, i cant give names to paul because the lads could get put on duty or anyhting and i would have no transport:o

so hopefully, one day i make it up there, it will be a milsim day

You mean having a dedicated "MilSim Only" day on a regular weekend day?

If it were every second Sunday or one Saturday a month of something I could see it happening.

G3-Nut

Hivemind187 wrote: »

You mean having a dedicated "MilSim Only" day on a regular weekend day?

If it were every second Sunday or one Saturday a month of something I could see it happening.

yeah, basically all im asking is, there isnt gonna be a complete stop on dedicated milsims on weekends is there?

Hivemind187

G3-Nut wrote: »

yeah, basically all im asking is, there isnt gonna be a complete stop on dedicated milsims on weekends is there?

Good grief no!

I was only talking about having an additional day a week doing 3-4 hours of MilSim gaming for folks who would be up for it, not moving all MilSim to a weeknight.

Rogue-Trooper

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Well if people are genuinely up for it I'll sort something out with Paul to get a regular MilSim night running at HRTA.

A weeknight, most likely a Tuesday or Wednesday from around 6pm to 9-10pm?

That's a great idea -I'd be well up for that!

hrta

I,d never push for real caps, there's no need, you only have to load 30 rounds in a mid cap, and you have a real cap.

My objective, for airsoft, is always, to remain fun, for every one, new or old.

Has no one heard of, the jump test.

hrta

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Good grief no!

I was only talking about having an additional day a week doing 3-4 hours of MilSim gaming for folks who would be up for it, not moving all MilSim to a weeknight.

He who says, must now do.:D

hrta

The biggest problem with milsim games, is some people just never read up on the game rule's for the day, and i find that upsets the people that took the time to read them, and it holds up the games on the day, and it only takes one person, not to have read the rules, to upset every thing on the day, and all one has to do, if you cant rember is to print them off, and bring them with you on to the field, that way you have them to hand, if you need to check what you should be doing, and dont think you will look like a fool, in the real world you would have your orders printed, and you would have them on you, to make sure you where doing what you where ordered to do.

TheDoc

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Good grief no!

I was only talking about having an additional day a week doing 3-4 hours of MilSim gaming for folks who would be up for it, not moving all MilSim to a weeknight.

count me in good sir

night ops ftw

Masada

A night Op would be bleedin deadly., i'll never forget that experience of scuttling around in pitch black as an honorary Contractor that day. Then out of the darkness!


"Who the F%&k is Foxtrot Uniform?!"

Fiach Dubh

I'd play milsim every week if it was running. No question.

Necron99

I prefer a good old skirmish to a milsim most times as its great for blowing off steam but I enjoy the thrill of a more stratigic game every once in awhile as long as there thought out and planned right.:)

Dr_Pepper

hrta wrote: »

The biggest problem with milsim games, is some people just never read up on the game rule's for the day, and i find that upsets the people that took the time to read them, and it holds up the games on the day, and it only takes one person, not to have read the rules, to upset every thing on the day, and all one has to do, if you cant rember is to print them off, and bring them with you on to the field, that way you have them to hand, if you need to check what you should be doing, and dont think you will look like a fool, in the real world you would have your orders printed, and you would have them on you, to make sure you where doing what you where ordered to do.

The solution to this is in my post.
"try to run more "interesting" games, i.e 300 rounds, no silly "bang kills", single shot indoors etc. No huge story which people wont read or understand"

Full on MilSim can be done once a month.
But i would prefer to see a once a week "semi-milsim" game as above.