Climbing Tips

Raam

Some handy tips here: http://tourofireland.eu/climbing.pdf

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

Some handy tips here: http://tourofireland.eu/climbing.pdf

More here -- http://www.cptips.com/climb.htm

I like this site good bunch on information for alot of aspects of cycling.

Greyspoke

Embrace pain as your friend!

Raam

Greyspoke wrote: »

Embrace pain as your friend!

Aye, climbing is not meant to be easy

Diarmuid

lose weight!

scottreynolds

Diarmuid wrote: »

lose weight!

RU Taking to me.... that is some cheek.

Gavin

I decided to try and beat a time from one of the MAD lads on the MTB. From taylors up to where that road levels off. Kept at it fairly hard. My ears seemed to block up, my head started to feel dodgy and my legs got wobbley. I hit 181bpm which I haven't seen before. A torturous experience. But a fine sense of achievement.

Raam

From my own experience I find when doing a climb that it's best to take it handy enough at the start...let your body get conditioned to this new effort. Then once you are comfortable you can put the power down. If you go off too hard at the start it's very difficult to recover.

Chips Lovell

Raam wrote: »

From my own experience I find when doing a climb that it's best to take it handy enough at the start...let your body get conditioned to this new effort. Then once you are comfortable you can put the power down. If you go off too hard at the start it's very difficult to recover.

The Spanish say "start at the bottom like an old man and you'll reach the top like a young one".

Raam

el tonto wrote: »

The Spanish say "start at the bottom like an old man and you'll reach the top like a young one".

In Spanish please?

xz

Diarmuid wrote: »

lose weight!

Thats the tip I'm going with;)

DirkVoodoo

I have been following your last climbing advice Raam and its worked well, start out easier than you would like and work progressively harder as you advance up the climb. The mental division of a climb also works wonders, small achievable goals and all that jazz.

ROK ON

I guess people could go to one of Prof Conconi training camps in Northern Italy. Apparently, its great for improving folks climbing techniques.:D

short circuit

Just wondering ... is the only way to improve to keep doing hill repeats at the pace you can ... all of the online stuff suggests doing it at a hard enough pace at a decent cadence ... tried going upto view point today morning .. to get anyway up,I was already on the largest cog and I was just about getting up ... forget about the cadence .. I am already running a 34-27 lowest gear.

Should I just try to spin faster and stop mid way up if I fall apart and keep doing this till I can climb all of it in 1 go ... or is it a case of keeping it going even at a slower cadence .. and the more I climb .. the better I will get.

blorg

I would try to get up the hill in one go, set that as the main aim. That means pacing yourself and going slower, especially at the start, to save your energy. When you are comfortable getting up in one go you can start to work on doing it faster.

If you go slower at the start, you can even save enough to do a bit of a burst sprint at the end, this is very satisfying.

FrankGrimes

blorg wrote: »

I would try to get up the hill in one go, set that as the main aim. That means pacing yourself and going slower, especially at the start, to save your energy. When you are comfortable getting up in one go you can start to work on doing it faster.

If you go slower at the start, you can even save enough to do a bit of a burst sprint at the end, this is very satisfying.

+1 on that. I am far from being a good climber but I have definitely noticed that I am least bad when I avoid the inclination to give it my all when I first hit the climb. I used to try and stay in as tough a gear as I could (i.e. on the big ring at the front) and just pound it out for as far as I could, but have found that dropping it to the lower front ring (compact for me) earlier and just keep it spinning really makes a difference. It'll be a long time before I'm flying up hills but this approach will definitely helps as it keeps the effort level smoother throughout. But for reference, getting up to view point in one go for me is success.

short circuit

blorg wrote: »

When you are comfortable getting up in one go you can start to work on doing it faster.

My problem is defining comfortable .. when I see a few of you glide up to viewpoint ... I am not sure if I will be ever that comfortable ... if it means not puking when I get up there ... I might be good to up the ante a little bit ...

blorg wrote: »

If you go slower at the start, you can even save enough to do a bit of a burst sprint at the end, this is very satisfying.

Thanks for the vote of confidence on that sprint ... :cool: .. i thought I started off slow today ... ended up going even slower by the top

[quote=FrankGrimes;59245174just keep it spinning[/quote]

I think I might need a granny ring to spin upto view point ...

Atleast I didn't collapse at the top ... I was able to turn around and cycle into work. I think my goal by the end of this summer is to be able to do 5 intervals back to back upto viewpoint.

Raam

@short circuit: MAKE yourself go harder near the top. Just put the hammer down like you are getting off the bike and finishing for the day. Then recover. Repeat as neccessary, but remember to take your rest days.

short circuit

Raam wrote: »

@short circuit: MAKE yourself go harder near the top. Just put the hammer down like you are getting off the bike and finishing for the day. Then recover. Repeat as neccessary, but remember to take your rest days.

I was just now waving to you as I passed you on my sprint up to Kippure ... Oh please ... don't wake me up just yet.

Raam

short circuit wrote: »

I was just now waving to you as I passed you on my sprint up to Kippure ... Oh please ... don't wake me up just yet.

You might get your wish someday

ROK ON

I have a big problem of trying to give it all in a bigger ring (ie to save the smaller/granny ring for when I need it). Inevitably I get worn out and have to come off the bike for 30secs to get heart rate down to a level where it is not jumping out of my chest. Once you get off the bike, the momentum has been broken. Still sometimes I cant help it. But would echo, that key is to take it very easy and complete the climb in one go.

The climbs that I have found I am having more success on is due to (1) starting out easy (in the granny ring if needs be) and (2) breaking the climb up by visible markers.
I also find it easier it to NOT to look up at the top of the climb, but to focus on the next few road markers (ie broken white lines in middle of road/signposts/trees/anything). I find if I count from as far as I can see (say 8 white lines down as I pass them and start again), that it takes mind off the climb and focuses one on getting to the next white line (usually only a few meters away).

If you can, it is also easier to try and climb with someone else (a better climber). See how long you can match the cadence of the cyclist in front of you. Again, just a trick to keep the momentum going forward and to keep your mind on anything but the climb.
Might seem mad, but it works for me (WHEN I PUT IT INTO PRACTICE).

FrankGrimes

ROK ON wrote: »

I have a big problem of trying to give it all in a bigger ring (ie to save the smaller/granny ring for when I need it). Inevitably I get worn out and have to come off the bike for 30secs to get heart rate down to a level where it is not jumping out of my chest. Once you get off the bike, the momentum has been broken. Still sometimes I cant help it. But would echo, that key is to take it very easy and complete the climb in one go.

The climbs that I have found I am having more success on is due to (1) starting out easy (in the granny ring if needs be) and (2) breaking the climb up by visible markers.
I also find it easier it to NOT to look up at the top of the climb, but to focus on the next few road markers (ie broken white lines in middle of road/signposts/trees/anything). I find if I count from as far as I can see (say 8 white lines down as I pass them and start again), that it takes mind off the climb and focuses one on getting to the next white line (usually only a few meters away).

If you can, it is also easier to try and climb with someone else (a better climber). See how long you can match the cadence of the cyclist in front of you. Again, just a trick to keep the momentum going forward and to keep your mind on anything but the climb.
Might seem mad, but it works for me.

Some good tips there - as a fellow struggler on the climbs a lot of that is very relevant for me, thanks.

Raam

Well, if anyone wishes to have a session in Howth tomorrow evening, I shall be there doing 6 minute reps out of the village.

short circuit

ROK ON wrote: »

just a trick to keep the momentum going forward and to keep your mind on anything but the climb.
Might seem mad, but it works for me.

So for the wicklow 200, I need to get the man with the mankini to pace me up the climbs ... I am pretty sure I won't be looking up to the top of the climb ... and won't be thinking about the climb either ...

I might fall off laughing and break the momentum though ...

short circuit

Raam wrote: »

Well, if anyone wishes to have a session in Howth tomorrow evening, I shall be there doing 6 minute reps out of the village.

Did you look at the weather forecast for tomorrow ... at your weight .. you should be worried about being blown off into the Irish sea

Thanks for the offer all the same. I will take you up on a better evening ...

Raam

short circuit wrote: »

Did you look at the weather forecast for tomorrow ... at your weight .. you should be worried about being blown off into the Irish sea

Thanks for the offer all the same. I will take you up on a better evening ...

You're right. I hadn't checked the weather. I might have to postpone that till Wed. 50kph winds... no thanks.

scottreynolds

short circuit wrote: »

Did you look at the weather forecast for tomorrow

Never ever read the forecast .. it will only stop you cycling. I find winds are never that bad that you need to stop cycling....

Also.... in a race you don't get to choose the weather.

Raam

scottreynolds wrote: »

Never ever read the forecast .. it will only stop you cycling. I find winds are never that bad that you need to stop cycling....

Also.... in a race you don't get to choose the weather.

The bit that bothers me is tearing down past the church, shaving off speed, trying to see past that poxy skip that's blocking the road from the left, hoping that no one is coming out, while trying to avoid those stupid manhole covers, and keeping an eye out for cars reversing out of spaces, merging from the road to the left, avoiding all the potholes and pedestrians... and hoping a gust of wind doesn't blow me off course. Should be fine apart from that.

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

The bit that bothers me is tearing down past the church, shaving off speed, trying to see past that poxy skip that's blocking the road from the left, hoping that no one is coming out, while trying to avoid those stupid manhole covers, and keeping an eye out for cars reversing out of spaces, merging from the road to the left, avoiding all the potholes and pedestrians... and hoping a gust of wind doesn't blow me off course. Should be fine apart from that.

Don't forget the stuff blowing out of the skip. No your right... better to sit at home studying your weekend notes

blorg

One thing I'm picking up from a few of you here is this reluctance to use your granny ring or your lower gears. This is completely counterproductive. There is no "glory" in being able to go up a hill in a big gear if you would have gone up faster in an lower one. Use whatever gear gets you up the hill fastest/in one go. I don't think you should view the granny on a triple, if you have one, as a "bail out" gear, you should be using it as an integral part of your climbing. When you have the getting up hills in one go mastered, move on to the getting up hills fast and when you have that one down you could worry about being able to power up them

scottreynolds

blorg wrote: »

One thing I'm picking up from a few of you here is this reluctance to use your granny ring or your lower gears. This is completely counterproductive. There is no "glory" in being able to go up a hill in a big gear if you would have gone up faster in an lower one. Use whatever gear gets you up the hill fastest/in one go. I don't think you should view the granny on a triple, if you have one, as a "bail out" gear, you should be using it as an integral part of your climbing. When you have the getting up hills in one go mastered, move on to the getting up hills fast and when you have that one down you could worry about being able to power up them

This coming from a guy who turns up to a spin with 11-23 Standard to look tough.....

I think blorg 90% right but I always pick a minimum cadence say 60rpm and aim for that ... if I can spin higher then good but as blorg says don't go for the glory espacially if you have to stop -- thats more than counter productive its a bit silly.

short circuit

I have gone from a standard double to a compact on the front ... and a 11-23 (which the bike came with) to a 11-26 .... I am obviously not the one ashamed of the granny ring ... I think at some point you just have to grind out and get stronger

ROK ON

Lets say one is faced with a climb (say something like Wicklow Gap). Longish, and several changes in gradient.

My question is, should one be in the same front ring all the way (Granny, or smaller ring on compact/double), and then vary the back cog to maintain cadence?
Reason I ask is I often lose momentum when changing from say 34 to 30 (I have a triple), (as I am adding too many gear inches maybe??).
Whereas I rarely lose momentum when changing gears on the back ring.

So from what I am hearing here is that, start a climb in a very easy setting that will get you up the climb. In my case the 30 ring, not the 34. In that case I am (over) spinning at the early stage of the climb, and my spinning slows (optimises) during the tough stages of the climb?

Is this interpretation reasonable/correct?

Finally, where can I get a chart that shows gear inches for various combination. There are times when I am in, say, 34/25 and move to 30/25, when it may be more optimal to go to 30/21 for example???

Raam

ROK ON wrote: »

Lets say one is faced with a climb (say something like Wicklow Gap). Longish, and several changes in gradient.

My question is, should one be in the same front ring all the way (Granny, or smaller ring on compact/double), and then vary the back cog to maintain cadence?
Reason I ask is I often lose momentum when changing from say 34 to 30 (I have a triple), (as I am adding too many gear inches maybe??).
Whereas I rarely lose momentum when changing gears on the back ring.

So from what I am hearing here is that, start a climb in a very easy setting that will get you up the climb. In my case the 30 ring, not the 34. In that case I am (over) spinning at the early stage of the climb, and my spinning slows (optimises) during the tough stages of the climb?

Is this interpretation reasonable/correct?

Finally, where can I get a chart that shows gear inches for various combination. There are times when I am in, say, 34/25 and move to 30/25, when it may be more optimal to go to 30/21 for example???

Just try and keep a steady cadence all the way.

short circuit

ROK ON wrote: »

Lets say one is faced with a climb (say something like Wicklow Gap). Longish, and several changes in gradient.

My question is, should one be in the same front ring all the way (Granny, or smaller ring on compact/double), and then vary the back cog to maintain cadence?
Reason I ask is I often lose momentum when changing from say 34 to 30 (I have a triple), (as I am adding too many gear inches maybe??).
Whereas I rarely lose momentum when changing gears on the back ring.

So from what I am hearing here is that, start a climb in a very easy setting that will get you up the climb. In my case the 30 ring, not the 34. In that case I am (over) spinning at the early stage of the climb, and my spinning slows (optimises) during the tough stages of the climb?

Is this interpretation reasonable/correct?

Finally, where can I get a chart that shows gear inches for various combination. There are times when I am in, say, 34/25 and move to 30/25, when it may be more optimal to go to 30/21 for example???

This will help you calculate your gear inches
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/

You are probably going from a 39 to 30 .. not 34 to 30 on a standard triple.

On my compact 50-34 and a 12-26 cassette .. I find that I have to go down 3 cogs at the back when I move from 50 to 34 to get the next lower gear. Staying on the same cog at the back has me spinning like mad. So I go to 34 at the beginning of the climb and adjust the rear as it suits.

Also, if you move to a bigger chain ring at the front, its much harder for the derailer to move you back to the lower one when it gets difficult as the front derailer has the harder job of changing the part of the chain under tension ... while the rear derailer move the part which is not under tension.

Raam

ROK ON wrote: »

Lets say one is faced with a climb (say something like Wicklow Gap). Longish, and several changes in gradient.

My question is, should one be in the same front ring all the way (Granny, or smaller ring on compact/double), and then vary the back cog to maintain cadence?
Reason I ask is I often lose momentum when changing from say 34 to 30 (I have a triple), (as I am adding too many gear inches maybe??).
Whereas I rarely lose momentum when changing gears on the back ring.

So from what I am hearing here is that, start a climb in a very easy setting that will get you up the climb. In my case the 30 ring, not the 34. In that case I am (over) spinning at the early stage of the climb, and my spinning slows (optimises) during the tough stages of the climb?

Is this interpretation reasonable/correct?

Finally, where can I get a chart that shows gear inches for various combination. There are times when I am in, say, 34/25 and move to 30/25, when it may be more optimal to go to 30/21 for example???

I didn't really answer your question too good. The trick is to anticipate when you will need to change gear and do it before you really need it. This will help stop you loosing speed.

petethedrummer

ROK ON wrote: »

My question is, should one be in the same front ring all the way (Granny, or smaller ring on compact/double), and then vary the back cog to maintain cadence?
Reason I ask is I often lose momentum when changing from say 34 to 30 (I have a triple), (as I am adding too many gear inches maybe??).
Whereas I rarely lose momentum when changing gears on the back ring.

I have a compact(never counted the teeth). If I'm shifting to the smaller ring at the front I usually click down 2/3 on the back and I'm in roughly the same position. I dunno how advisable it is to shift both back and front gears at the same time, while going up a hill, but i do it anyway.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

I dunno how advisable it is to shift both back and front gears at the same time, while going up a hill, but i do it anyway.

You're releasing a lot of chain tension at once, and you may drop the chain.

I usually change up at the back before changing down at the front.

paddy's hill

I think the key is to hit the bottom of the climb and then get into the smallest gear that you are comfortable in. For a fast accent you will find that you will not vary the gears very much, but will be spinning at a cadence that is just above what is comfortable. For me this is about 65 but as the summer goes on it will increase to about 80 as I get fitter. 80 is my average on the flat as well. Since I retired from racing my cadence has not changed but I am pushing smaller gears now.

ryan_sherlock

Reiterating a couple of pieces of advice.

Say for a 5-10 minute climb, start off much easier then you think you should for the first minute or so. I ride with a power meter and it's really easy see how you can go overboard at the bottom of the climb when you are fresh. Don't worry - if you are pacing it right, the pain will come.

Another big thing, is to climb well, climb a lot. When I was prepping for this season in Gran Canaria I was climbing about 12,000m a week. (Most mountain bike races are hilly affairs) Riding climbs is different than riding on the flats - slightly different muscle recruitment.

Cadence - I have speed up my cadence a lot throughout the winter but especially climbing - around 85-90 on a steady 6-8% climb now - I find that I'm a lot fresher at the top when I get up and sprint for the finish. But when I'm on the mountain bke, there are so many times when it is so steep, your out of the saddle and churning 55rpm. It's great to have an aim of trying to pedal at a certain cadence (higher) on climbs but you'll always have times when you get 'stuck' in the wrong gear - so it's good to practice that too. A quick 'drill', one minute out of the saddle at 50rpm, one minute seated at 80rpm - keep switching over an 8 minute climb - don't go too hard - you shouldn't be dead at the top. Roll back down and repeat.

If you are practising for hill climbing in mass start races, then it's good to throw in a few climbs where you go to hard at the start - that's what happens racing

When I did the hill climb champs earlier in the year (I didn't know the course which didn't help), I made a real effort to keep it easy for the first minute or two - I though I did but looking back at the data I still went out way to hard and blew towards the end hurting my overall time.

Raam

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

When I did the hill climb champs earlier in the year (I didn't know the course which didn't help), I made a real effort to keep it easy for the first minute or two - I though I did but looking back at the data I still went out way to hard and blew towards the end hurting my overall time.

Ryan, are you doing the championships this year?

ryan_sherlock

Ryan, are you doing the championships this year?

Yeah - as long as it doesn't clash with something big. I don't know what hill it goes up this year but I'm going to ride it at least once before hand this year.

Last years course was great - would do it again anyway. I would love to see something like the Wicklow Gap or Sally Gap thrown in though. The climb in 2007 was 5-6 minutes with last years around the 9 minute mark. Pretty short...

Raam

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

Yeah - as long as it doesn't clash with something big. I don't know what hill it goes up this year but I'm going to ride it at least once before hand this year.

Last years course was great - would do it again anyway. I would love to see something like the Wicklow Gap or Sally Gap thrown in though. The climb in 2007 was 5-6 minutes with last years around the 9 minute mark. Pretty short...

I heard that it is possibly the same course as last year.

blorg

For something like the Wicklow Gap I would suggest changing down to the granny ring at the start of the climb, or at least after the gentle bit, before the bit where it ramps up. Key as Raam says is to change down into it before you have to. It's also an easier shift at that point as the chain won't be under so much tension and you are less likely to throw it. Don't hang on like crazy in the bigger ring until you are exhausted. With the largest cogs at the back the granny will also be more efficient than the middle ring- you will have a better chainline.

Say you have a 30 granny with a 12-X on the back. Even presuming you are going to avoid the smallest three cogs 12-13-14 due to cross-chaining issues (and practically you can use at least the 13 and 14 without rub), 30-15 will give you 26km/h at 100RPM, 21km/h at 80RPM. You could consider that sort of 21-26km/h range your top speed in the granny while still using a reasonable cadence. Now that is fast enough, there are not many parts of that climb you will want to be doing faster! There is a small flat-ish bit in the middle after the really steep part that in the future you may want to pop back into the middle ring for but to be honest it's short and you would be fine staying in the granny and taking it easy so you recover before it kicks up again.

I'd then stay in the granny until you get to the top. If you start feeling like you need to be in your middle ring before you get to the top of the Wicklow Gap, you no longer have any problems climbing

@scott- I have the 53/39 11-23 as standard on that bike and it is enough for me for Ireland now and definitely better for racing. I was racing Sunday so didn't want to be changing cassettes, a wider range is still preferable outside a bunch race I reckon.

But I am also fitter than I used to be and remember when I wasn't! I used a triple before (still do on my tourer) and did most of my climbing in the granny ring, indeed generally 30-24 or 27 with a high cadence. TBH I think a triple makes a hell of a lot of sense if you are not racing and want to climb.

Raam

blorg wrote: »

Don't hang on like crazy in the bigger ring until you are exhausted.

Indeed. Save your legs, not your gears.

blorg

@ryan- I remember reading on your blog that you wanted easier gearing than 39-25 for the Hill Climb Champs last year- would you have gone for a 27 or a compact do you reckon? Wicklow or Sally Gap would be a _lot_ less steep than Mamore Gap though it would certainly be interesting to have a race up them, they are very familiar to a lot of the Dublin members.

ryan_sherlock

@ryan- I remember reading on your blog that you wanted easier gearing than 39-25 for the Hill Climb Champs last year- would you have gone for a 27 or a compact do you reckon? Wicklow or Sally Gap would be a _lot_ less steep than Mamore Gap though it would certainly be interesting to have a race up them, they are very familiar to a lot of the Dublin members.

Yeah - I would take a 27, or a compact and a 27... That climb was very steep but there was also a huge headwind and rain. Smooth pedaling was important.

It would be cool to have a climb on one of the really well known climbs. Get some good figures for how fast the fast lads (and lassies) go up them - something to aim for.

I wanted to organize a little low key hill climb time trial some evening... Maybe the Cruagh climb... depends on numbers I guess. I took part in some low key hill climbs in the US. Everyone gets a start time (before hand) you turn up at the line 2 minutes before your start and then go... => not much traffic or hanging around on the line - a lot safer.

blorg

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

I wanted to organize a little low key hill climb time trial some evening... Maybe the Cruagh climb... depends on numbers I guess. I took part in some low key hill climbs in the US. Everyone gets a start time (before hand) you turn up at the line 2 minutes before your start and then go... => not much traffic or hanging around on the line - a lot safer.

Sounds good, I'd be well on for something like that, I would not fancy my chances mind! Cruagh would be a good steady climb, are you thinking start at the bottom just before it gets bendy and up to the viewing point? Straight up Three Rock from Tiknock could also be an option, lowe traffic and certainly isn't lacking in steepness. Could end at the barrier on the road inside the wood or could be continued to the masts with that seen as an obstacle

Civilian_Target

The killer is always that bit about 100m up when it suddenly gets steeper.

I always stay in the saddle and spin, until I can see the top point.

Raam

blorg wrote: »

Sounds good, I'd be well on for something like that, I would not fancy my chances mind! Cruagh would be a good steady climb, are you thinking start at the bottom just before it gets bendy and up to the viewing point? Straight up Three Rock from Tiknock could also be an option, lowe traffic and certainly isn't lacking in steepness. Could end at the barrier on the road inside the wood or could be continued to the masts with that seen as an obstacle

Are these road or off-road? If it's road, I'd be in.

blorg

All road- there is a paved road all the way to the top of Three Rock. A lot of elevation gain in a short distance with some very steep bits (the steepest bits being before the actual wood on Ticknock road.)