*** eircom and Internet Censoring ***

jor el

Following on from my earlier post, we've decided to lock the two eircom threads as they've either gone so off topic, both discussing the exact same thing which is pointless or so much incorrect information in them its not even funny.

So the idea behind this thread is ONLY to try and stop eircom, or other ISP's, from censoring what websites you can access based on IRMA's suggestions.

This thread is not for:
- Discussing the music industry's current business model
- Discussing that its OK to download copyright material

This thread is ONLY for discussing what can be done to stop eircom from censoring websites full stop, anything else is seen as off-topic and may be deleted so lets come up with ideas to stop this.

Before you post please read the following so you understand the latest announcement by eircom which was posted 24th February 2009 -

READ THIS before posting.

Ireland's largest ISP won't block The Pirate Bay -- the embattled
BitTorrent search engine and tracker -- absent a court order, a
spokesman said Tuesday.

Eircom is aware of copyright infringement issues but will not block
The Pirate Bay unless major record labels can obtain a court order
requiring it and other ISPs (Internet service providers) to do so, the
spokesman said.

Eircom recently avoided a trial with record labels EMI, Sony,
Universal Music Group and Warner Music Group. The labels took Eircom
to court to try to force the ISP to install traffic-monitoring
equipment that would have examined content of its subscribers in an
attempt to clamp down on illegal file sharing.

After eight days in court in January, Eircom opted to settle with the
labels. Eircom said it would not install content monitoring equipment
but instead agree to investigate subscribers suspected of file sharing
and disconnect them if their activity continued, the spokesman said.

Content monitoring is "not our business," the spokesman said. "We have
no interest in it."

Eircom will accept IP (Internet Protocol) addresses and other
information supplied by companies working for record labels that track
illegally traded content, the spokesman said. However, Eircom will not
turn over subscriber information to record labels.

The details of the agreement with the record labels are still being
worked out, such as the level of proof Eircom would find acceptable in
order to justify disconnecting a subscriber. Implementation of a
warning and disconnection system is a couple of months away, he said.

Eircom's terms and conditions for its subscribers will not change, as
the ISP has always had the right to cut off customers engaged in
illegal activity, he said.

The situation in Ireland mirrors other efforts the entertainment
industry has undertaken to try and shut down The Pirate Bay, which is
one of the most popular sites to obtain torrents, or small information
files, that coordinate the download of material via the BitTorrent
protocol.

In December, a Danish court upheld a ruling that required the ISP
Tele2 to block The Pirate Bay, in a case that was initiated by the
International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI). Tele2
was considering appealing the ruling.

The Pirate Bay is having its own troubles in Sweden. Four men are
standing trial this week on a charge of aiding with making material
available that is under copyright. They could face prison, and the
Motion Picture Association and IFPI are seeking around US$12.5 million
in combined damages.

Here is what I suggested earlier that we can all do

me wrote: »

Petition eircom to fight the court case, if and when it comes. Petition your ISP, if you're not with eircom, to fight any such action against them. Contact Digital Rights Ireland to see if there's anything being done, or to see if it can be started. Contact Ireland Offline group and see if there's anything they can do. Petition the minister for communications to get involved. Contact Comreg to see if there's anything they can do to get eircom to fight the court action. Contact the media to let them know of your concerns, and see if they're willing to get a public debate going. Radio shows like Gerry Ryan, Joe Duffy, Ray D'Arcy and The Last Word, would be a start.

Now, let the sensible debate begin...

skelliser

http://www.boycotteircom.com/

My name is URL

Sorry, I didn't know another thread existed when I made my earlier post.

On topic, those are good ideas jor el. There needs to be an Irish net neutrality lobby group set up, not just one that's focussed on Eircom. Is there already such a thing?

bobbbb

Upward Spiral wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't know another thread existed when I made my earlier post.

On topic, those are good ideas jor el. There needs to be an Irish net neutrality lobby group set up, not just one that's focussed on Eircom. Is there already such a thing?

You could start one.

Once Eircom start to lose customers by the thousand they'll back down.
They only ones who will stay will be those who know how to use proxies.

Duiske

We know Eircom's position (at the moment), as can be seen in jor el's post above. However, I think its likely that one or more of the other isp's may well try to fight this by contesting any application to the Irish courts, and if unsuccessful, possibly going to the European Court. This document DIRECTIVE 2000/31/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT is certainly going to be used in any challenge.
The relevant parts are Articles 12,13,14 and especially 15, which can be found on pages 12 and 13 of the pdf.

Apologies if this has been covered in the other thread.

skelliser

some more links
http://blackoutireland.com/
http://blog.blackoutireland.com/

At the moment the only organised group spreading awareness is this facebook group
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=53586632674

Spear

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/02/26/1235237810486.html

Similar attempts and ever more encompassing attempts in Australia failed. There was enough opposition, (only 10% of the public supported it) that even someone as clueless as a politician realised this was a very bad idea.

Gran Hermano

I'm interested in seeing what the other ISPs that are not Irish owned (Utv, BT and UPC especially) do as it'd be a case of them giving in to the
music companies in one of their markets and not in others.

Kenno90

if they even block one tiny website , i'm moving to a new ISP

Marlow

First of all, what Eircom has done or will do is nothing different, to what was happening first.

Honestly, the settlement has made no difference to before.

This article: http://www.pcworld.com/article/160114/irish_isp_we_wont_block_the_pirate_bay.html
has all the bits in there, which pretty much reflects what the majority of the ISPs will do about it.

The phone companies don't wiretap without a court-order. Starting to monitor and filtering traffic equals to wiretapping. And as the article says, Eircom, nor any other ISP will release customer data to IFPI, IRMA and the likes.

/M

skelliser

i understand tho that a garda superintendent or even the garda commissioner is the only person who can apply to the courts for a wiretap

Marlow

skelliser wrote: »

i understand tho that a garda superintendent or even the garda commissioner is the only person who can apply to the courts for a wiretap

Yes. And thus the task lies with the media industry to provide proof in the first place, sufficient proof, before a customer gets notified or disconnected.

While that all is on, Eircom will still not release your data or tap into your data. It's none of their business.

/M

Capt'n Midnight

bobbbb wrote: »

You could start one.

Once Eircom start to lose customers by the thousand they'll back down.
They only ones who will stay will be those who know how to use proxies.

*broken record*
If you move to another ADSL provider eircom still get line rental and wholesale rate. Eircom loose problem customers so it's win-win for them

skelliser

This is ideally what we should be following, a well organised continous campaign
http://creativefreedom.org.nz/blackout.html

bobbbb

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

*broken record*
If you move to another ADSL provider eircom still get line rental and wholesale rate. Eircom loose problem customers so it's win-win for them

If that was the case Eircom wouldnt be in the broadband business. They would only be in the line rental business

My name is URL

Just saw this on Twitter.

http://www.p2pnet.net/story/18639

Seems to be gathering alot of momentum and attention, which we could use for our benefit. How about somebody sets up a Twitter account? I can't because all of my email addresses are in use on the site for various projects. I'd be happy to design a customized bg image for it though, and help in any way I can.

EvaTheDiva101

When will this be put in place?
Or has it been put in place already?

Capt'n Midnight

bobbbb wrote: »

If that was the case Eircom wouldnt be in the broadband business. They would only be in the line rental business

most businesses have three types of customers
peaches, the ones you like nice profit from them
apples and oranges, not so much profit but lots of them
lemons, no one wants these - big downloaders , uppity complainers , legal risks and all that

supervixen

There are always options like using a proxy service like:
http://www.securstar.com/products_ssolo.php

A bit more expense but peace of mind

My name is URL

supervixen wrote: »

There are always options like using a proxy service like:
http://www.securstar.com/products_ssolo.php

A bit more expense but peace of mind

It's not about not getting caught doing whatever you're doing, it's about the possibility that a precedent will be set that other court cases regarding censorship will refer to. That could change the internet, not just in Ireland either.

Cabaal

bobbbb wrote: »

If that was the case Eircom wouldnt be in the broadband business. They would only be in the line rental business

Eircom is broken into Eircom Residential and Eircom Wholesale
Its no different to that in the UK were you have BT Retail and BT Openreach

There's money to be made but because Eircom basically owned the network and they are forced to share it they are also forced to split their business to allow other companys to use it.

Bottom line however is eircom still make money no matter what ADSL provider you get

On a slightly off-topic note, damn you jor el for stealing my thoughts...I wrote most of that first post

tanora78

This post has been deleted.

supervixen

Upward Spiral wrote: »

It's not about not getting caught doing whatever you're doing, it's about the possibility that a precedent will be set that other court cases regarding censorship will refer to. That could change the internet, not just in Ireland either.

I guess the big point is MONEY :rolleyes:
It seems that groups are interested to restrict the contend available via internet, this includes copyright issues as well as political issues like promoting terror and drugs and whatever and each group will push for restrictions....
At the moment for ISP to monitor traffic means spending money on it, but if there is a chance to lose more money in law suits they will maybe go for it.....
So it boils down to politics and legislation......
As I indicated above there is from a user perspective an easy way to stay clear of monitoring,and if people pick this up there is little point to enforce monitoring....just my 2 cents .....

bealtine

supervixen wrote: »

So it boils down to politics and legislation......

What I find fascinating is the lack of comment from our glorious Consumer Association and of course our pointless regulator, where are they?

The difference between here and a civilised country :

Norwegian regulator calls for support on net neutrality Thursday 26 February 2009 | 08:41 AM CET

The Norwegian Post and Telecommunications Authority is calling for providers to endorse the guidelines on network neutrality. A number of parties from the Norwegian Internet industry are already backing network neutrality guidelines drawn up by a working group headed by the Norwegian Post and Telecommunications Authority (NPT). The parties that are supporting the guidelines are Get, ICT Norway, Lyse Tele, the Norwegian Media Businesses Association, NextGenTel, the Norwegian Cable TV Association, Schibsted, Telenor, Telio Telecom, the consumer protection agencies Consumer Ombudsman and the Consumer Council of Norway, in addition to NPT. The guidelines define three principles that outline how network neutrality guarantees internet users control over their own internet connection. The network neutrality guidelines are based on three principles: internet users are entitled to an internet connection that enables them to send and receive content of their choice, use services and run applications of their choice, connect hardware and use software of their choice that do not harm the network; internet users are entitled to an internet connection that is free of discrimination with regard to type of application, service or content or based on sender or receiver address.

bealtine

bealtine wrote: »

Norwegian regulator calls for support on net neutrality Thursday 26 February 2009 | 08:41 AM CET

Here are the actual guidelines:

Norwegian Net Neutrality Guidelines

These can easily be transposed to the Irish situation.

skelliser

taken from digital rights ireland website
http://www.digitalrights.ie/


Looks like we got it wrong. When we wrote about the deal between Eircom and the music industry we believed (as the early reports seemed to say) that it only involved a “three strikes” system and that the daft notion of internet filtering was off the table. But the nastygrams sent to the other ISPs have now been leaked (thanks Michele) so that we can now see just what was agreed with Eircom and what the music industry is demanding that other ISPs do - and filtering is still on the table:

Leave aside for a moment the nonsense of sending this letter to a business - Blacknight - which doesn’t in fact provide internet access. The key words are these:

Eircom has agreed that it will not oppose any application our client may make seeking the blocking of access from their network to the Pirate Bay or similar websites …

Please confirm that Blacknight will also work with the record industry to end the abuse of the internet by peer to peer infringers … in the event of a positive response to this letter it is proposed to make practical arrangements with Blacknight of a like nature to those made with eircom.

In short, as Adrian Weckler puts it:

Irma is drawing up a list of websites it doesn’t like and Eircom will block them to all of its customers. And Irma is demanding that other ISPs do likewise, on pain of being sued.

Eircom says that it will only block a website if a court order requests it to. But it has undertaken not to oppose any application to a court… Our judicial system is an adversarial one: it depends on someone opposing the action for a judge to come to a conclusion. If the opposing party enters no opposition, a basic standard of proof will be enough to satisfy the court.

The net effect of this scheme, if it is allowed to go into effect, will be to impose an internet death penalty on two groups. On users, who will be cut off on the allegation of a private body, with no court involvement, and on websites, which could be blocked to Irish users based on a court hearing where only one side is heard. Damien Mulley makes the point well as usual:

So first they’ll start with the Pirate Bay. Then comes Mininova, IsoHunt, then comes YouTube (they have dodgy stuff, right?), how long before we have Boards.ie because someone quoted a newspaper article or a section of a book? And don’t think they’ll stop there too, any site that links to The Pirate Bay and the others on the hate list will probably be added to the list too…

I’m sure the business case for eircom was they didn’t want any more costly High Court actions with McDowell biting at their legs on the command of the music industry but this is going to open up a can of worms with IRMA demanding more and more attacks on how people surf the net, this is what it is in my view an attack on our freedom to read, our freedom to write, our freedom to move around the web. All so a very rich but rapidly becoming poor group of luddites can feel better for seeing the future and trying to fight it.

And of course the costs of communications with IRMA and of the filtering is going to be passed on to the consumer. The cost of blocking a single site will be almost nothing I suppose but as more sites get added and as the arms race between the pirates and the ISPs escalates, then it’ll become complicated and complicated costs more. So again the majority get to pay…

So what can you do about this? The first step is the most urgent. The other ISPs are at this very moment considering what steps to take. Although some (such as Bitbuzz) have been vocal in their opposition, caving in is the path of least resistance unless you show that this is an issue which matters to you and which determines where you’ll take your business. Contact your ISP - mark your email for the attention of their regulatory department - and let them know what you think. Contact emails for most ISPs are on the ISPAI website. Do it now - the decision on what to do will be made soon.

The next thing to do is to get involved with a group which will fight this. We’re currently working on a few ideas and will let you know soon. But in the meantime you should go to Blackout Ireland who have been quick off the mark with a plan to black out the Irish internet for a week from March 5th. The Digital Rights forum on Boards.ie has also been abuzz with this issue, as has this thread on Broadband.

Having done that, let the Minister for Communications - Eamon Ryan - know the damage that this is likely to cause. Don’t just rely on the civil rights arguments - business impact is more likely to get attention. Point out that if ISPs are forced to become the (unpaid!) copyright cops of the music industry, it will drive up their costs and set a dangerous precedent for other Irish internet businesses. Would you choose to establish an internet start up in Ireland if you thought you’d be made responsible for policing what your users do? Ask him to intervene to prevent irreparable damage to the Irish internet. Eamon Ryan’s email addresses are eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie and minister@dcenr.gov.ie but a paper letter (Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, 29-31 Adelaide Road, Dublin 2) or fax ((01) 678 2029 or 2039) are more likely to get attention. You can also ring the Minister’s office on (01) 678 9807 - if you do, be polite and succinct. If you’re a constituent of his (in Dublin South) be sure to mention that fact and that this issue will influence how you vote in the next election.

Donald-Duck

Spear wrote: »

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/02/26/1235237810486.html

Similar attempts and ever more encompassing attempts in Australia failed. There was enough opposition, (only 10% of the public supported it) that even someone as clueless as a politician realised this was a very bad idea.

I may be wrong, but in Australia the case was that everyone in the country had to go through a government proxy.

iamlegend2008

Hi

If there is anyone sitting on the fence on this issue, I read this and though it would be appropriate:

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

and a quick summary:

We are about to enter a situation where an australian owned company will block access to websites deemed "illegal" by various record labels. These record labels will be required to obtain a court order but since eircom will not object to any court order, any court action on behalf of the record label is likely to succeed.

One thing that I recommend is to take the time to explain the far reaching consequences of this to friends and neighbours whom may not be even aware of what is happening at the moment (but happily paying for broadband from their respective ISP). Their voices combined will speak louder than yours.

Perhaps including the blackoutireland logo (or whatever logo is chosen for this protest) in your email signums may also spread the message. Some of you control websites that you could also add the logo to.

The world is in a recession and people's attention is focussed on how they will provide for their families in the current climate. As such they may not have time for the concept of digital censorship and I do not believe its a coincidence as to the timing of this move by the record industry.

Apathy is the greatest enemy.

So lets get to work

uncle_sam_ie

So, If eircom starts censoring the web and I go around it like they do in China, will I be breaking the law or what?

Random googling brought me to this:


http://stephenspillane.blogspot.com/2009/02/i-have-joined-blackout-ireland.html

Next Thursday (March 5th) has been designated as Black Thursday and the campaign will run for one full week from then. It is hoped that that week people will contact their ISP's and the Minister of Communications on this issue.

Whats that about march 5th?


EDIT: Also, just to add, i don't think it'll ever work. People will not care about it, until it is actually enforced. Then there'll be murders.

Cabaal

Spon Farmer and Spear
Read the rules at the start of this thread, this thread is NOT for discussing illegal downloading rights and wrongs which has already been done to death with over 500 posts in other threads, it is about censorship ONLY.

Next person to start this type of debate gets infracted and if they continue gets banned

Please stay On-Topic

Cabaal,

Nody

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

So, If eircom starts censoring the web and I go around it like they do in China, will I be breaking the law or what?

Eircom is not the garda, nor do they write the law, hence you would only be breaking their T&C.

Wcool

Nody wrote: »

Eircom is not the garda, nor do they write the law, hence you would only be breaking their T&C.

Looking at Eircom's T&C http://www.eircom.ie/bveircom/pdf/BBStandardTandCsv2.pdf you are not even breaking Eircom's T&C if you would try to keep your internet traffic private from anyone, including Eircom.

blubloblu

Here's a sample letter you can send to Eircom to voice your feelings:
http://www.viewfromthequad.com/2009/02/26/a-sample-blackout-ireland-letter-to-the-isps

jor el

If eircom is to implement a website blocking structure, then I'd imagine they'll have to modify their terms and conditions to say something like "We reserve the right to block websites with certain content, etc, etc", and then get all existing customers to agree to this new term.

If it gets to that stage, then it'll be too late to do anything about it, and expressing your dissatisfaction would be a moot point. I hope eircom customers do not wait until then to do anything, such as canceling their account. The time for action against web censoring is now, before the sites get censored.

Hopefully the other ISPs will fight any court case. If you are a customer of an ISP that you believe may have received one of these IRMA letters, then you should contact them now and express your desire for them to fight it.

There is no case for blocking websites that have not been proven to be illegal. Let IRMA first prove that the torrent site's content is against Irish laws, and then take action. I still believe the action should be directed at the site in question though, and not a localised block on access, which really won't work anyway.

uncle_sam_ie

blubloblu wrote: »

Here's a sample letter you can send to Eircom to voice your feelings:
http://www.viewfromthequad.com/2009/02/26/a-sample-blackout-ireland-letter-to-the-isps

What we need is a very simple e-mail to send to all our friends explaining simply what is going on and the consequences. Then ask them to e-mail eircom, by including a short pre written message to eircom (so it will only take a min out of their time). Also, ask them to forward your e-mail to all their friends. Are hope would be to make this viral. If enough people spam Eircom's in-box then hopefully they'll get the message. I know at least 30 people around the world that would do it. But, it has to be short, to the point and easy for them.

Donald-Duck

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

What we need is a very simple e-mail to send to all our friends explaining simply what is going on and the consequences. Then ask them to e-mail eircom, by including a short pre written message to eircom (so it will only take a min out of their time). Also, ask them to forward your e-mail to all their friends. Are hope would be to make this viral. If enough people spam Eircom's in-box then hopefully they'll get the message. I know at least 30 people around the world that would do it. But, it has to be short, to the point and easy for them.

Say no to chainmail :mad:

Spear

I'm curious as to how Eircom intend to block any site. Previous attempts such as in Italy, involved local ISP's not returning valid DNS lookups for it. After a few weeks they gave up since it was pointless. It takes only a few seconds to stick in the DNS servers from OpenDNS or Level3. Anything beyond this, such as messing with routing tables is easily bypassed by proxy or Tor. Deep packet inspection means more equipment and costs for Eircom, which I doubt they'd tolerate. Has there been any mention of the technical approach from IRMA or Eircom?

tanora78

This post has been deleted.

Im starting to think Eircom wants to go bankrupt.


They controlled internet access for many years in Ireland, never had any push to provide BB nationwide.

Now they provide a shoddy service, overpriced services, over payed employees and now are going be one of the 1st ISPs to roll over and just accept these Nazi organizations ideals.


Tpb recently won yet another case in Sweden, as by Swedish law and irish for that matter the site is legal.

So how the hell can eircom just decide to start censoring a legal website.


I dont know how anyone is on eircom(besides people who cant get anything else)

eircom needs continue to loose customers in droves, they have a government attitude, like they can dictate the rules and content of the internet.


Ill be happy on the day that i hear eircom are going into administration and i feel it will be soon.


UPC are pumping money into there network, and with the no line rental and bundle packages they will suck up the market.
If they sorted out there CC and so on i would recommend it to everyone.

iamlegend2008

Hi

Further to my earlier post in this thread, here's a sample image that could be used to get the point across pretty simply

blockedbyisp.png

Im no graphic designer so apologies for the roughness of the image.

iamlegend2008

Are irish broadband/eircom connected? Don't know much (anything) about ISPs connections with each other (what I'm saying is, if Eircom enforce this, will it automatically apply to IBB aswell, or are they two completely seperate providers with no connection whatsoever, except that they are both in the same business?)

iamlegend2008 wrote: »

Hi

Further to my earlier post in this thread, here's a sample image that could be used to get the point across pretty simply

blockedbyisp.png

Im no graphic designer so apologies for the roughness of the image.

Its a good idea, I don't think it'd make much sense to people who have no idea what's going on. You'd need a small image (and url) that could be used as a signature, that would make people curios. suprised that blackout ireland group don't have a logo.

blubloblu

http://www.blackoutireland.com
Is up.
Provides information about the whole situation and ways you can help.

Has anyone here actually sent an email to their Internet provider?

blubloblu

Yes. And I know at least three others who have as well.

tanora78

This post has been deleted.

EvilMonkey

blubloblu wrote: »

http://www.blackoutireland.com
Is up.
Provides information about the whole situation and ways you can help.

It should be greenoutireland!

silvine

I emailed Eamon Ryan, Three and UPC there. I also asked for a callback. I will post back here and let you know how I get on.

I'd encourage everyone here to do so too. The ISPs will be deciding over the next few days what course of action to take.

andyrew120

andyrew120 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yeah, sent one to Irish Broadband (My ISP). I doubt i'll get a reply, although i think i was pretty nice in my email. I only used the word "bastard" three times. (Im joking, of course).

thebman

silvine wrote: »

I emailed Eamon Ryan, Three and UPC there. I also asked for a callback. I will post back here and let you know how I get on.

I'd encourage everyone here to do so too. The ISPs will be deciding over the next few days what course of action to take.

Ah now, I doubt IRMA bothered contacting three :P

tanora78

This post has been deleted.