[Wind] ESB is offering 19 cents per unit to the first 4,000 to sign up

nuttz

It's a pity it's 19c for the first 4000 people to sign up and not 19c full stop, as it will be while (year plus) before I get up and running, but I suppose it's better than nothing.


http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eyauauojaukf/

iei044775

4,000 is alot of installations, considering a very small percentage of sites are suitable for wind turbines I can't see 4,000 being installed in the short term. There are virtually only a handful of sites suitable for Hydro and it remains to be seen how popular Photovoltaic and CHP will become in Ireland.

The main concern is if a load of people starting importing sub standard turbines from low cost economies like happened in NI where they literally fell apart!!!

Lightning McQue

Folks

Does this apply only to wind?

What about micro-hydro and have any of ye installed a micro-hydro turbine?

Thanks

Lightning McQueen

odonoso

Where do you sign up and what are the condiions

betonit

can people start a business with this and have a few wind turbines etc and actually make a profit or is it just pay for the excess that domestic users have?

RKQ

This scheme is to be welcomed.
Personally I'm not convinced about the pay-back time of a turbine. The ability to sell excess back to ESB is a definite positive.

From experience, can anyone tell me the cost of a turbine, its payback time and its efficiency. (I can read the sales info but I genuinely interested in peoples personal experience, thanks)

1922

RKQ wrote: »

This scheme is to be welcomed.
Personally I'm not convinced about the pay-back time of a turbine. The ability to sell excess back to ESB is a definite positive.

From experience, can anyone tell me the cost of a turbine, its payback time and its efficiency. (I can read the sales info but I genuinely interested in peoples personal experience, thanks)

wouldnt mind knowing this myself....planning specs for a house and have a wild site...turbine would go well!!

gman2k

SEI website seems to be down tonight!

quentingargan

RKQ wrote: »

This scheme is to be welcomed.
Personally I'm not convinced about the pay-back time of a turbine. The ability to sell excess back to ESB is a definite positive.

From experience, can anyone tell me the cost of a turbine, its payback time and its efficiency. (I can read the sales info but I genuinely interested in peoples personal experience, thanks)

First the usual declaration of interest - I sell wind turbines, but more as an enthusiast than as a livelihood.

I've had a 2.5kw turbine for six years. Its not on a great site, so our payback time would be abysmal. I once worked it out at 74 years. For me at the time it wasn't all about payback - when I paid €20K for the turbine, I paid €550 for a car. Other people paid €550 for their leky and a lot more than €20K for their cars. We're about quits.

I've learned a lot about what does and doesn't work with them, and site is all important. You have to assess your site. There is a company in Dundalk who will do that for a fee, and they are independent of any turbine suppliers. They'll tell you your mean wind speed at a hub height of 11.5m and then you can make a rational decision about whether it will work for you (assuming you believe the power curves in the brochures.....)

Turbines got an awful name because people put them on rooftops of houses in built up areas. A turbine needs clean wind with no turbulence to work properly. If you have a good site, wide open to winds between sw and nw, it will pay for itself in all probabilitly. If you don't then its something you might do for philanthropic reasons, but not to save money.

By the way, that 19c is only on the first 3,000 KwHr Per year - check the ESB website which has the details. So large turbines are less likely to pay for themselves than smaller ones.

I also have a micro-hydro. If you have a good site, this is a no-brainer - cheap to install, and runs 24/7. But you must have a really high head of water down which you can bring a good size pipe.

odonoso

I hoping to install a DIY 1Kw over the next few week. Can't afford anything bigger and the moment
I have a fairly one sit to the south and west
I don;t thinkl i will produce enogh to sell bac to the ESB

gizmo555

quentingargan wrote: »

I also have a micro-hydro. If you have a good site, this is a no-brainer - cheap to install, and runs 24/7. But you must have a really high head of water down which you can bring a good size pipe.

Very interesting. I have a stream running along one side of my garden with a flow which varies between a trickle in high summer and a torrent when it has been very rainy.

I suspect my location is not really suitable, but how do you define "a really high head of water", what sort of set up are you running and how much power is it generating for you?

Thanks!

Odsox

Can anybody answer a quick question for those in the know.
Is a grid tie inverter connected directly to this new meter or can it be connected to the fuse box ?
Getting another wire to the wall inset ESB meter box would be a right pain.

quentingargan

Odsox wrote: »

Can anybody answer a quick question for those in the know.
Is a grid tie inverter connected directly to this new meter or can it be connected to the fuse box ?
Getting another wire to the wall inset ESB meter box would be a right pain.

The inverter is mounted beside the fusebox, and an additional fuse is installed as a feed in point. You need space for the inverter and two isolator switches, one either side of the inverter. You will, of course, have to get the cable from the turbine into that point as well. Q

quentingargan

odonoso wrote: »

I hoping to install a DIY 1Kw over the next few week. Can't afford anything bigger and the moment
I have a fairly one sit to the south and west
I don;t thinkl i will produce enogh to sell bac to the ESB

A 1kw water turbine, producing 1kw around the clock, generates more power per year than most 4kw wind turbines. That is well worth selling:rolleyes:

Odsox

quentingargan wrote: »

The inverter is mounted beside the fusebox, and an additional fuse is installed as a feed in point. You need space for the inverter and two isolator switches, one either side of the inverter. You will, of course, have to get the cable from the turbine into that point as well. Q

Thanks Quentin ... a follow up question, can the inverter be sited at the base of the tower in a waterproof shed and the 240v be fed to the fuse box (with suitable fuse and isolators)?
There is already mains electric in the shed for sync.

rathbaner

I have worked out that I can probably generate 7 amps continuously from a set up I hope to complete soon. But what I cannot figure out is what does a wire at the end of a pole in the field dripping 7 amps of juice become in Kwh when fed into the grid?

Anyone shed any light on this for me?

Odsox

7 amps at 220v is just over 1.5 Kw every hour you keep it going.
So about 36 Kw hours every day

quentingargan

Odsox wrote: »

Thanks Quentin ... a follow up question, can the inverter be sited at the base of the tower in a waterproof shed and the 240v be fed to the fuse box (with suitable fuse and isolators)?
There is already mains electric in the shed for sync.

THe voltage drop between the inverter and the consumer unit must be less than 1%, so you would need a suitable cable. It is generally considered best practice to keep the inverter close to the fuseboards and some standards insist that it be less than a 1m cable. However, I know of one company doing a wind turbine where the inverter is in the nacelle of the turbine, so it must be acceptable. Q

rathbaner

Odsox wrote: »

7 amps at 220v is just over 1.5 Kw every hour you keep it going.
So about 36 Kw hours every day

Yeah thanks, that's the formula. Is it really that simple? I was wondering whether you can plug a turbine genny straight into an inverter or whether it was necessary to store the charge in a battery first - to even out the flow....???

quentingargan

rathbaner wrote: »

Yeah thanks, that's the formula. Is it really that simple? I was wondering whether you can plug a turbine genny straight into an inverter or whether it was necessary to store the charge in a battery first - to even out the flow....???

The juice from the generator usually goes into some sort of controller before going to the inverter. That controller would need rectifiers as the inverter takes DC within a certain voltage range.

Aurora does a neat little wind box and inverter combination that does the whole lot, suitable for grid connection, and conforming to the EN standard. If you PM me, I will give you a link to their site.

Q

Cheeble

RKQ wrote: »

This scheme is to be welcomed.
From experience, can anyone tell me the cost of a turbine, its payback time and its efficiency. (I can read the sales info but I genuinely interested in peoples personal experience, thanks)

Try these:

http://www.warwickwindtrials.org.uk/2.html year long study in the UK in urban settings. Installation costs were from GBP1,800 to GBP5,500. Results disappointing mostly due to low wind compared to predictions, but also overoptimistic manufacturers power curves.

http://www.boost-energy.com/boost/Zeeland%20small%20wind%20turbine%20testfield%20(12m).pdf this is one manufacturers spin (pardon the pun) on the Zeeland trials, but David Sharman seems a reasonably straight talking guy. The site is shown her http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ5n9B1zLuY&feature=related they're on reasonably tall towers (13.5m? anybody?), but there are a lot of trees around.

Cheeble-eers

No6

quentingargan wrote: »

I also have a micro-hydro. If you have a good site, this is a no-brainer - cheap to install, and runs 24/7. But you must have a really high head of water down which you can bring a good size pipe.

Quentin can you send me any details of the micro hydro. I have a client currently building on a hill with a stream along the side of his site, maybe ok for wind but hopefully excellent for micro hydro

quentingargan

Cheeble wrote: »

Try these:

http://www.warwickwindtrials.org.uk/2.html year long study in the UK in urban settings. Installation costs were from GBP1,800 to GBP5,500. Results disappointing mostly due to low wind compared to predictions, but also overoptimistic manufacturers power curves.

http://www.boost-energy.com/boost/Zeeland%20small%20wind%20turbine%20testfield%20(12m).pdf this is one manufacturers spin (pardon the pun) on the Zeeland trials, but David Sharman seems a reasonably straight talking guy. The site is shown her http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ5n9B1zLuY&feature=related they're on reasonably tall towers (13.5m? anybody?), but there are a lot of trees around.

Cheeble-eers

I agree about poor sites totally. See todays Irish Times where I was quoted;

Mr Gargan said the tariff offered would make wind turbines viable in sites that have good wind conditions, but he warned those interested in the scheme to assess their site before deciding.

“A turbine needs to be wide open to wind from any direction between southwest and northwest. Turbulence from buildings or hedges upwind of it will decimate the productivity of any wind turbine.”

For about €250 an independent company in Dundalk will assess your site, or I am happy to provide the information so you can assess your own site using the basic tools available. Provided of course that the power curve from the manufacturer isn't full of porkies...

One Northern Ireland company who supplied rooftop turbines in Ireland actually took them all down again and refunded customers because they realised that they didn't work. I like that sort of integrity...:) But it is definitely not ubiquitous in the renewable energy sector...:mad:

Gaothfar

Thanks Quentin for the info. Have you considered a booklet: 'The Beginners Guide...'?
As regards the 'Small and Micro-Scale Generation Pilot Field Trials' (to give it its official handle), there are 4,000 in total but they are divided into sub-groups. In my case, Rural, Domestic under 6kW there are only 6 for the whole country.
Also: 'the application must be co-signed by the equipment supplier'. There must be a 'maintenance contract for 18 months'. 'The application must be co-signed by the organisation supplying and installing the equipment'. 'Evidence of appropriate insurance may be required'. 'Three letters of reference from companies with the specified generator model installed in sites similar to those proposed will be required.' 'Applications must include a feasibility study'. etc etc etc
In short this scheme is a bag of air to make Minister Ryan look like he's doing something when he's not.

quentingargan

Gaothfar wrote: »

Also: 'the application must be co-signed by the equipment supplier'. There must be a 'maintenance contract for 18 months'. 'The application must be co-signed by the organisation supplying and installing the equipment'. 'Evidence of appropriate insurance may be required'. 'Three letters of reference from companies with the specified generator model installed in sites similar to those proposed will be required.' 'Applications must include a feasibility study'. etc etc etc
In short this scheme is a bag of air to make Minister Ryan look like he's doing something when he's not.

This is what SEI and the civil service does to ensure that they don't get too many applications to process...

In reality, this isn't a grant - it is a long promised pilot. The grant to some extent is the 10c top up of the tariff for five years. This is not unlike the situation in Spain where they gave a 45c tariff for solar PVs and then after the first funding was used up, the next lot went down to a 31c tariff. The idea is that as the equipment becomes more popular (and theoretically cheaper) then the funding can fall accordingly.

I would prefer this to the UK where there is a grant scheme announced, and everyone is busy as hell until the funding ends. Then they all sit around waiting for the phones to ring. Grants can cause terrible supply/demand problems and usually end up funding a new Merc for the dealers, and not much else...

rathbaner

Isn't it the case then that there's no economic point in having a 2.5 Kw rated turbine for domestic use?

What you'd want is something that's a lot cheaper to install and connect say >€5k that's rated at ~500W, and that can exploit lower wind speeds?

Gaothfar

Even so Rathbaner, you'll have the cost of the installers, insurers, officially-sanctioned contractors etc which makes the whole thing uneconomical and therefore another Green Party dead-end.

gizmo555

Gaothfar wrote: »

Even so Rathbaner, you'll have the cost of the installers, insurers, officially-sanctioned contractors etc which makes the whole thing uneconomical and therefore another Green Party dead-end.

Gaothfar, you seem to be mixing up the pilot scheme to grant aid up to 75% of the capital cost of small & micro power generation you mentioned in your previous post, and the newly announced tariff of 19c/kWh up to 3,000 kWh annually, at which the ESB will buy excess power produced by domestic micro-generation from the 1st 4,000 households to sign up. The latter is not eligible for capital grant aid, but doesn't have to go through all the hoops you describe above.

https://www.esb.ie/esbcustomersupply/residential/energy_efficiency/micro_generation_tariff.jsp

Gaothfar

Thanks Gizmo. You're quite correct. But there are still some formidable hoops to go through.
Do you, or anyone else, have a rough idea of the cost of buying and installing a 2.5kW machine? Also the insurance and maintenance contracts required?
Would anyone with a turbine care to share their experience>
Regards,
G.

gizmo555

Haven't a clue about the likely capital costs. I wonder though - Bord Gais and Airtricity are now guaranteeing to undercut the ESB by 12% and its prices in turn are due to fall by 10% from May. Will some enterprising soul try to figure out a way to buy electricity from Bord Gais or Airtricity and sell it back to the ESB at a 4.5c/kWh profit?

Doctor_L

Gaothfar,

I have done some research on this and the reputable 2.5kw turbines that work at low wind speeds and stand up to gusty irsh weather are 10,000 Euros approx.

I tend to ignore the rating of the turbine and focus on the diameter of the blades and use wind swept area calculations.

I would also pay attention to the weight of the turbine, you need a strong turbine for irish weather e.g 90 Kgs plus so as to stand up to gusts of 20 m/s etc

Look for a turbine should engage and generate at low wind speeds

Quentin is right about the power curve and some companies imaginative figures. My wind swept area calcs have shown that nearly all manufacturers are paddig their figures at lower wind speeds especially the 4 - 6 m/s range.



I have been measuring windspeeds in my back garden using a wh0180 weather station with data logging for the past 10.5 months. I will be making the data available on my web site www.irishsilicon.com during May 2009.

I have good wind speeds but it is not completely open from the SW. Wind rose plots have reavealed that I have best wind speeds come from the S and SSW

I will face the dilemma do I install or not as I am worried about turbulence from the house as its only 25 meters away.

Liam

quentingargan

Gaothfar wrote: »

Would anyone with a turbine care to share their experience>Regards,
G.

Declaration of interest - I now sell turbines. But 6 years ago, when I bought my first turbine, I'd no notion of selling them, and I still went ahead and spent IR£20,000 on a 2.5kw machine knowing that its payback time on our site was ludicrous - especially as the ESB wouldn't buy our power so we had to use batteries.

I think we need to be honest about payback times. People buy houses (or at least they used to...) knowing that the mortgage repayments were one and a half times their rent. Why? Because they know the rent will go up, whereas the mortgage will eventually be cleared. If you believe electricity prices will rise, then the same economics apply and even a 20 to 30 year payback time at todays ESB prices might actually make sense. If you think there's no end to the amount of oil out there and that climate change is a myth put out by the folks who sell wind turbines, then you'd be mad to buy one.

Remember to factor in things like maintenance, replacement of blades after 10 years etc. I've no problem telling people that a turbine might have a 20 year payback time. That's 5% and at the moment, people have money with Rabo earning 3% or so after DIRT.

There are a few people out there with really good sites. For them the 19c rate makes turbines a no-brainer. Others might do it because they want to do the right thing, and if there is a very long term return, they can live with that. Q