Siptu Call off Bus Strike

dub_commuter

A threatened strike by SIPTU drivers at Dublin Bus from March 1 has been averted after talks at the Labour Relations Commission today.

SIPTU branch organiser Willie Noone said the company had agreed to enter direct talks with the union about its cost-cutting plan under the auspices of the LRC.

'The company has also agreed not to implement threatened job cuts and this has helped create a space within which talks can take place,' he said.
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Last month, Dublin Bus said 290 jobs would be lost as part of the company's cost cutting measures. It was also planning to withdraw 120 buses from its fleet.

RTE.ie

Cookie_Monster

What about NBRU then, will they be calling off their strikes?

Polar101

According to the RTE story, both unions have called off their strikes.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0225/economy.html

shltter

Polar101 wrote: »

According to the RTE story, both unions have called off their strikes.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0225/economy.html

For the moment anyway

It is absolutely ridiculous that this goes on for 6 weeks and now the company does what they were asked to do 6 weeks ago and starts talking.

Dub13

Yea it looks like Dublin Bus have backed down.

murphaph

shltter wrote: »

For the moment anyway

It is absolutely ridiculous that this goes on for 6 weeks and now the company does what they were asked to do 6 weeks ago and starts talking.

Private firms just make people redundant and that's that. 38000 jobs gone in January puts 290 bus drivers losing their jobs in perspective. Time for ye lads to take off the blinkers and see how rapidly this country is running out of money.

We don't have time for talks. The government and its semi-states needs to cut its cloth to suit its measure NOW!

dub_commuter

DB have managed to find their voice, no doubt they will lose it again:

Dublin Bus wishes to inform customers that the company and trade unions have accepted the proposals put forward by the Labour Relations Commission at today’s talks, and as a result proposed service changes have been deferred from March 1st for one week.

No industrial action will be taken by either trade union and the company will not implement it’s Cost Effectiveness Plan for that period. This is to allow for intensive discussions and negotiations between all parties using the services of the LRC commencing Monday 2nd March.

Thats the first official word they've published on their website.

shltter

murphaph wrote: »

Private firms just make people redundant and that's that. 38000 jobs gone in January puts 290 bus drivers losing their jobs in perspective. Time for ye lads to take off the blinkers and see how rapidly this country is running out of money.

We don't have time for talks. The government and its semi-states needs to cut its cloth to suit its measure NOW!

Its not just about redundancies it is about the company trying to change work practises that have been negotiated and approved by the Labour relations machinery of this state. The company or any company cannot unilaterally change terms agreed in the labour court without any discussion.

As for your comment that we don't have time for talks well talks are exactly what we are about to get unfortunately after a wasted 6 weeks in which the company refused to engage on the terms they have just agreed to engage on.

murphaph

Don't worry. The IMF are on the way. You can bleat on about the labour mechanisms (which pretty much only apply to the state and semi-state sectors) all you like while they TELL the government to cut the Dublin Bus workforce in HALF. But that's ok cos there'll be no jobs to ferry anyone to anyway. Do you really not see how serious the situation is yet?

Look at Jaguar Land Rover-company told them to keep the place going they'd need a 4 day week and radical changes to work practice. At least their union told them the truth and they agreed to try to hold on to their jobs. I reckon Dell workers would have readily agreed to radically alter their work practices had they been given the chance.

Perhaps a dose of IMF reality is really needed before some people in the state and semi-state jobs will realise there really is no money.

mikemac

Maybe management and the union can agree to let the LRC make a decision on this and they will be bound by it, no matter what happens.

There's a quick and easy solution and the LRC (or is that the Labour Court?) are experienced in these sort of things.

We just need the two parties to agree to the bound by the decision and no complaining afterwards if it doesn't suit.

shltter

murphaph wrote: »

Don't worry. The IMF are on the way. You can bleat on about the labour mechanisms (which pretty much only apply to the state and semi-state sectors) all you like while they TELL the government to cut the Dublin Bus workforce in HALF. But that's ok cos there'll be no jobs to ferry anyone to anyway. Do you really not see how serious the situation is yet?

Look at Jaguar Land Rover-company told them to keep the place going they'd need a 4 day week and radical changes to work practice. At least their union told them the truth and they agreed to try to hold on to their jobs. I reckon Dell workers would have readily agreed to radically alter their work practices had they been given the chance.

Perhaps a dose of IMF reality is really needed before some people in the state and semi-state jobs will realise there really is no money.

Cop yourself on will you the whole the IMF is coming you better agree to whatever we tell you is getting boring and it is condescending in the extreme.

You don't impose change you negotiate it if Dublin Bus had tried that 6 weeks ago we would be a lot further up the track rather than starting out on it on Monday.

Besides which we are not government employees when will you cop on to that and stop bleating on as if we were civil servants. Don't lecture me like you know more about the situation in Ireland and particularly in Dublin Bus than I do.

This is a game the company play it and so do the unions they demand all the cake when all they really want is a slice the unions tell them they can have none of it. And they mess with peoples lives for 6 weeks before they start to talk. In the end they get the slice they want and the unions can say they saved most of the cake.

shltter

mikemac wrote: »

Maybe management and the union can agree to let the LRC make a decision on this and they will be bound by it, no matter what happens.

There's a quick and easy solution and the LRC (or is that the Labour Court?) are experienced in these sort of things.

We just need the two parties to agree to the bound by the decision and no complaining afterwards if it doesn't suit.

Thats called binding arbitration and it has not come to that yet.

dfx-

shltter wrote: »

Its not just about redundancies it is about the company trying to change work practises that have been negotiated and approved by the Labour relations machinery of this state. The company or any company cannot unilaterally change terms agreed in the labour court without any discussion.

Maybe they can't but why shouldn't they?

The buses are not bringing in enough money to pay all the unionised employees, the government doesn't have the money to bail it out, there are efficiencies to be made, buses that are not needed..what part of this is difficult to see that changes and drastic changes must be made? The unions and certainly yourself seem to be determined to keep wages, workers and work practices..what exactly are the unions prepared to give?

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

AlekSmart

There is another somewhat less sensational reason as to why this little bit of arbitration managed to bring a bit of commonsense to bear.

Bus Atha Cliath operates a large and complex set of services which,if the Company`s original statements were correct,were to be effectively reconstituted over a 24 Hour period 28th Feb/1st March.

This "D-Day" was going to witness 120 vehicles withdrawn,290 staff made redundant and the issuing to the travelling public (Customers) of a comprehensively altered set of Timetable and Routing information.

As and of Wed Morning (24th Feb) there was no firm information available in Garages as to driver rostering and other associated information including detailed route schedules.

Staff enquiring as to their status were advised to wait for confirmation from Senior Management,who unsurprisingly were at various important meetings or were themselves unable to confirm or deny any of the many rumours.

To proceed as originally "Planned" would have been simply Madness of any sort...Private or Public.
The Company,is yet again,struggling to come to terms with Policy dictats from a Department of Transport which is itself awash with a sense of impending doom.

There is a growing Public awareness that a great part of the current CIE Road Passenger companies problems now derive from a Minister for Transport now firmly caught in a Conflict of Interest situation.

Minister Dempsey`s need to provide the various road building schemes with enough private motoring to justify it versus his supposed committments to expand and improve the scope of sustainable PUBLIC Transport.

This CoI situation is further exascerbated by the presence of the Public Private Partnership based Toll Road projects whose costings appear to have been based on traffic volumes now in serious doubt of being delivered.

This will leave those Private elements of PPP`s with some very unpleasant realities to face which will entail either substantially increased Tolls on what traffic there is OR to "hope" for a shift FROM a decreasing amount of lower grade Public Transport........which option is the easier for a Minister for Transport who coincedentally happens to be sole shareholder in the State`s Public Transport Service Provider ?

A form of sanity has indeed prevailed today Captain,but perhaps not quite as we know it !

As for the IMF appearing over the Horizon.....

Don't worry. The IMF are on the way. You can bleat on about the labour mechanisms (which pretty much only apply to the state and semi-state sectors) all you like while they TELL the government to cut the Dublin Bus workforce in HALF.

I would imagine that it would be relatively comfortable to support any State Run organizations which were shown to be capable of operating at or near the general norms for their particular sectors as would be obvious from their thumbing through the Deloitte Report on their voyage over......

murphaph

shltter wrote: »

Cop yourself on will you the whole the IMF is coming you better agree to whatever we tell you is getting boring and it is condescending in the extreme.

You don't impose change you negotiate it if Dublin Bus had tried that 6 weeks ago we would be a lot further up the track rather than starting out on it on Monday.

Besides which we are not government employees when will you cop on to that and stop bleating on as if we were civil servants. Don't lecture me like you know more about the situation in Ireland and particularly in Dublin Bus than I do.

This is a game the company play it and so do the unions they demand all the cake when all they really want is a slice the unions tell them they can have none of it. And they mess with peoples lives for 6 weeks before they start to talk. In the end they get the slice they want and the unions can say they saved most of the cake.

You really have no clue as to how serious the financial position is. That much is obvious. You are semi-state employees, working for a company that requires taxpayer subvention to pay you. I have no problems with taxes paying for public transport but just to reiterate-we need MAJOR cutbacks in ALL government expenditure or this country will go bust and the IMF WILL BE REQUIRED!!!

lostexpectation

all these people who spend their energy btiching about strikes that never happen lol

murphaph

lostexpectation wrote: »

all these people who spend their energy btiching about strikes that never happen lol

Haha, time will tell. ICTU is calling for a national strike, will that keep ya happy? What do you think the international financial community (the people we're currently borrowing off to pay wages) will make of that? Will they be likely to increase or decrease the interest rates we pay for our government debt? Strikes are no joke when your country's broke.

Zoney

murphaph:

Don't worry, we are unlikely to that quickly get to the situation that quickly that they are in Eastern Europe for example (don't forget our press is biased towards covering Ireland - due to being domestic or UK mainly - plus Eurozone is of more concern in Western Europe). We would be gone already if we had our own currency - fortunately we're in the Eurozone.

No good people re-enforcing the focus specifically on Ireland - for all the outrageous nonsense here. We are not referred to in isolation by those in e.g. Germany with concerns (i.e. will they have to bail out entire countries).

There's little reason for Dublin Bus workers to do anything apart from what they have done - most detractors would be doing the same in that situation. While good to hear the strike has been avoided for now, strike action at DB is not the biggest issue for this country right now, however unhelpful it might be.

shltter

murphaph wrote: »

You really have no clue as to how serious the financial position is. That much is obvious. You are semi-state employees, working for a company that requires taxpayer subvention to pay you. I have no problems with taxes paying for public transport but just to reiterate-we need MAJOR cutbacks in ALL government expenditure or this country will go bust and the IMF WILL BE REQUIRED!!!

What are you babbling about this has nothing to do with Government cutbacks

I suggest that you have a read around the threads and maybe comeback when you have figured it out.

murphaph

shltter wrote: »

What are you babbling about this has nothing to do with Government cutbacks

I suggest that you have a read around the threads and maybe comeback when you have figured it out.

Look.at.the.big.ger.pic.ture.

BAC is a state subsidised company. Less money in the exchequer due to private sector closures/bankruptcies/job losses means less money to spend on the buses, both through the farebox and through government subsidy. You can delude yourself that BAC is isolated from the real economy but eventually it'll become inevitible that you realise it is.

shltter

murphaph wrote: »

Haha, time will tell. ICTU is calling for a national strike, will that keep ya happy? What do you think the international financial community (the people we're currently borrowing off to pay wages) will make of that? Will they be likely to increase or decrease the interest rates we pay for our government debt? Strikes are no joke when your country's broke.

Again the reason why the interest rates have increased is because the likely hood off one or more of our banks collapsing and the state having to bail out the billions of euro. The interest rates are rising not based on the current amount of boring or because any union is threatening industrial action but because we have banks with potentially massive holes in their loan books these people are looking and they are concerned that we could not pay back the billions we would need when/if those banks collapse.

Address your ire at the people who caused the problem and their cronies in FF

shltter

murphaph wrote: »

Look.at.the.big.ger.pic.ture.

BAC is a state subsidised company. Less money in the exchequer due to private sector closures/bankruptcies/job losses means less money to spend on the buses, both through the farebox and through government subsidy. You can delude yourself that BAC is isolated from the real economy but eventually it'll become inevitible that you realise it is.

If the state wants to stop paying for uneconomical services then we will cross that bridge then but we are not there so nonsense about the IMF remains that nonsense.
And the current issue is not related to that it is related to

1 the removal of the excise rebate on oil
2 A drop in passenger numbers
3 The steep rises in the price of oil


Now 1 is a fact no getting around it

2 can be addressed by improved services not slashing them

3 the price of oil has already receded back to $40 a barrel


Then it comes to whether you actually believe the figures produced by Dublin Bus and the simple fact is they don't stack up you can read my older posts if you want to know why.

Undoubtedly there is a hole in Dublin buses finances and of course it has to be addressed but you achieve nothing by exaggerating the problems or by refusing to speak to your employees representatives.

Simple fact is that the company have wasted 6 weeks these issues could have been dealt with and we could be well on the way to addressing the hole in Dublin Buses finances but they displayed intransigence by refusing to speak to the unions.
So instead now we are only starting out on that road if the situation is as bad as DB management painted then surely we can not afford to waste 6 weeks not talking to each other.

murphaph

Who are you going to be ferrying around on these improved services shltter? fewer and fewer people need to get to jobs which no longer exist!

We should divert current spending (wages and diesel) to capital projects that make buses function as efficiently as in other european cities. More bus gates, more bus segregation, more QBC, fewer buses and fewer drivers to drive them.

Max Factor

Dub13 wrote: »

Yea it looks like Dublin Bus have backed down.

It is phrases like "backed down" rather than decided not to that get peoples backs up fwiw.

shltter

murphaph wrote: »

Who are you going to be ferrying around on these improved services shltter? fewer and fewer people need to get to jobs which no longer exist!

We should divert current spending (wages and diesel) to capital projects that make buses function as efficiently as in other european cities. More bus gates, more bus segregation, more QBC, fewer buses and fewer drivers to drive them.

Now before you **** yourself of a cliff in your deep depression

there are still nearly 2 million people working in this country there is still demand for public transport if it is not where people need it then it needs to be provided where people need it.

Jesus you would swear the whole country was unemployed listening to you talking the country down and exaggerating the problem does not make it any better it makes it worse.
Yes it is bad we are not under any illusions but this nonsense about the IMF etc remains that nonsense.

Dub13

Max Factor wrote: »

It is phrases like "backed down" rather than decided not to that get peoples backs up fwiw.

It seems to me that the Union wanted to talk to Dublin Bus management weeks ago about this and they refused,they have now decided to talk to the union.This to me is "backed down"

AlekSmart

Can we have some definitions please of a "Bus Gate".

As many differing one`s as possible,and taking into account our current position in terms of Public Transport Infrastructure.

MOH

shltter wrote: »

there are still nearly 2 million people working in this country there is still demand for public transport

In which case why threaten to disrupt all those people demanding public transport with indefinite strikes?

shltter

MOH wrote: »

In which case why threaten to disrupt all those people demanding public transport with indefinite strikes?

Do you really expect a reply to that kind of inane ****e???

MOH

shltter wrote: »

Do you really expect a reply to that kind of inane ****e???

No, asking questions for no reason is one of the few joys of my otherwise miserable existence. Still, thanks for your well thought out reply.

murphaph

shltter wrote: »

Now before you **** yourself of a cliff in your deep depression

there are still nearly 2 million people working in this country there is still demand for public transport if it is not where people need it then it needs to be provided where people need it.

Jesus you would swear the whole country was unemployed listening to you talking the country down and exaggerating the problem does not make it any better it makes it worse.
Yes it is bad we are not under any illusions but this nonsense about the IMF etc remains that nonsense.

It's not nonsense because if we don't make cutbacks in current expenditure RIGHT NOW we will be an untouchable in the eyes of the international credit market. Nobody will trust us to repay our debts so nobody will lend at anything other than extortionate rates. Check out the real world-Ireland is in the worst or second worst position in Europe! And when you strip out the state and semi-state employees (whose jobs only exist to serve the private sector) of your 2 milion employees and factor in how fast the private sector is contracting (38,000 job losses in ONE MONTH!) coupled with the fact there is no stomach for job and pay cuts in the public sector and everyone else (apart from you it would seem) can see we ARE on the edge of a cliff!

paulm17781

Hmmm, Murphaph is implying Dublin bus need to run a better public transport system.

Shltter (bus driver?) is arguing with him for some reason. Implying lots of drivers with bad routes is the way it should be.

It really shows the problems doesn't it.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

Hmmm, Murphaph is implying Dublin bus need to run a better public transport system.

Shltter (bus driver?) is arguing with him for some reason. Implying lots of drivers with bad routes is the way it should be.

It really shows the problems doesn't it.

No it shows you don't read what people write but make up what suits you I suggest you read what i wrote

there are still nearly 2 million people working in this country there is still demand for public transport if it is not where people need it then it needs to be provided where people need it.

And your pal is arguing that we need less buses because the IMF is coming

shltter

murphaph wrote: »

It's not nonsense because if we don't make cutbacks in current expenditure RIGHT NOW we will be an untouchable in the eyes of the international credit market. Nobody will trust us to repay our debts so nobody will lend at anything other than extortionate rates. Check out the real world-Ireland is in the worst or second worst position in Europe! And when you strip out the state and semi-state employees (whose jobs only exist to serve the private sector) of your 2 milion employees and factor in how fast the private sector is contracting (38,000 job losses in ONE MONTH!) coupled with the fact there is no stomach for job and pay cuts in the public sector and everyone else (apart from you it would seem) can see we ARE on the edge of a cliff!

But again you are arguing in the wrong place this dispute is not about government cutting current expenditure it has nothing to do with it. But by all means you can keep babbling on about it. Besides which just cutting expenditure will not solve the problem the government needs a broader revenue base but again that is a debate for elsewhere and has nothing to do with this either.

Second you are wrong Public servants and semi state jobs exist to serve the entire country not just one section of the country. And your continual attempts to paint the economic crisis as a battle between public and private sectors does nothing to solve the problems but is a good diversion from the actual cause of the problem.

And I have not said we are not in difficult times just that exageratting it and threatening people with the IMF justs means that it is difficult to take anything you say seriously. We are nowhere near needing the IMF and even if we did your scare stories simply do not stack up the IMF have lent 2.1 billion to Iceland which given the population of Iceland would be something similar to lending 24 billion to Ireland and they have not imposed any of the draconian measures on Iceland as they are not completely stupid and realise making massive cuts in public sector pay would not only destabilise the country but also make the current recession worse.

shltter

MOH wrote: »

No, asking questions for no reason is one of the few joys of my otherwise miserable existence. Still, thanks for your well thought out reply.

Well if you can manage a well thought out question I will respond in kind

paulm17781

shltter wrote: »

No it shows you don't read what people write but make up what suits you I suggest you read what i wrote

There's a paragraph where he said we need bus prioritisation, bus gates, integrated ticketing, smarter routes and you argue with him.

shltter wrote: »

And your pal is arguing that we need less buses because the IMF is coming

Pal? I've met him once in real life and he seemed a decent sort. I wouldn't say we're pals. I tend to agree with him here a lot as he speaks a fair bit of sense and understands the economic strife we're in and what's necessary to fix it. Rather than ramble on about his pals in the depot who may lose their jobs even though we need cut backs.

Also, he didn't say the IMF are coming. He implied if everyone refuses to take cuts, we will have no choice. That's economic facts dear. As he said, we'll see how well your strike does against that.

paulm17781

shltter wrote: »

But again you are arguing in the wrong place this dispute is not about government cutting current expenditure it has nothing to do with it. But by all means you can keep babbling on about it. Besides which just cutting expenditure will not solve the problem the government needs a broader revenue base but again that is a debate for elsewhere and has nothing to do with this either.

we're spending more than we are bringing in. Our credit rating is slipping, borrowing is becoming more expensive. Not because of banks, that rate is falling. Our country's credit rate is falling too. Look into the economics of that. Now, we can't borrow until we balance the books. This is not my opinion, it is fact.

shltter wrote: »

Second you are wrong Public servants and semi state jobs exist to serve the entire country not just one section of the country. And your continual attempts to paint the economic crisis as a battle between public and private sectors does nothing to solve the problems but is a good diversion from the actual cause of the problem.

We need to reduce salaries, I've been saying for 4 years that our minimum wage is too high. It is the governments job to lead in that. They can't make private industries lower their wages but they can make their own staff. Nearly all private sector workers have taken pay cuts in the last 3 months, myself included. The private sector are taking cuts as we have no choice. The public sector are being their usual whiney b itch selves.

shltter wrote: »

And I have not said we are not in difficult times just that exageratting it and threatening people with the IMF justs means that it is difficult to take anything you say seriously. We are nowhere near needing the IMF and even if we did your scare stories simply do not stack up the IMF have lent 2.1 billion to Iceland which given the population of Iceland would be something similar to lending 24 billion to Ireland and they have not imposed any of the draconian measures on Iceland as they are not completely stupid and realise making massive cuts in public sector pay would not only destabilise the country but also make the current recession worse.

Just wait and see until our black hole grows. Iceland's banks collapsed, the Euro has saved us so far. We have one of the biggest falls coming and we have no where near enough native industry to support us. Unless we start competing with Eastern Europe and China on wages, we're in serious trouble. The best way the government can drive down wages is???? The public sector, well done.

Now, keep calling everything anyone else says rubbish. Keep striking for your plot and screw the rest of us. Just don't expect people to support you other than "your pals"

MOH

shltter wrote: »

Well if you can manage a well thought out question I will respond in kind

Really?

You've got a problem with your management. The company isn't being run properly. You guys are in the front line taking any grief from passengers about shoddy services, while management don't have to face this, and to top things off, are trying to make your life worse by making changes which may (given I've no first hand knowledge) contravene previous agreements they made with you.

You believe that there's a demand for public transport - obviously, a lot of this demand comes from commuters.

Your solution is an indefinite strike.

So, in order to resolve your issues with your management, you seem to be quite happy to disrupt everyone else's ability to do their job. In doing so, you're putting your interests above theirs. Which is probably fair enough, from your point of view.

On the other hand, nobody else particularly cares about what issues you have with your management. Whatever sympathy you might have had is gone out the window as soon as you decide your problem is more important than theirs. Lots of them have their own problems with their own management treating them badly, about which you don't care. If (daft example) all the IT staff in every bank in the country decided to go on strike on a bank holiday Friday, and you couldn't pay for anything all weekend because you couldn't get any cash out, would you really care about what kind of issues they had with your management? I've worked in places where the staff were treated badly, where management continually wanted more for less, and I did what most people would do - I left and took my chances.

So, what makes Dublin Bus drivers so different from everyone else that justifies disrupting masses of commuters because of an internal issue between you and your management?

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

There's a paragraph where he said we need bus prioritisation, bus gates, integrated ticketing, smarter routes and you argue with him.

No he argued that we should cut the number of buses to do these I disagree with that there is no need to cut services and cutting services will not improve services

paulm17781 wrote: »

Pal? I've met him once in real life and he seemed a decent sort. I wouldn't say we're pals. I tend to agree with him here a lot as he speaks a fair bit of sense and understands the economic strife we're in and what's necessary to fix it. Rather than ramble on about his pals in the depot who may lose their jobs even though we need cut backs.

Also, he didn't say the IMF are coming. He implied if everyone refuses to take cuts, we will have no choice. That's economic facts dear. As he said, we'll see how well your strike does against that.

We need changes it is a matter of how that is achieved and the IMF have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

And i called you his pal as the 2 of you follow each other around here slapping each other on the back and posting the same thing

murphaph

shltter wrote: »

But again you are arguing in the wrong place this dispute is not about government cutting current expenditure it has nothing to do with it. But by all means you can keep babbling on about it. Besides which just cutting expenditure will not solve the problem the government needs a broader revenue base but again that is a debate for elsewhere and has nothing to do with this either.

I agree that we need a broader evenue base and I AM 100% READY TO PAY HIGHER TAXES TO SUPPORT THE UNFORTUNATES WHO LOSE THEIR JOBS! (I'm a real socialist you see, not a SIPTU/NBRU type socialist). We MUST drastically reduce current expenditure at the same time and you fall in that category-you are current government expenditure, whether you like it or not. If you think for one second that the Minister for Transport hasn't already directed CIE and her group of companies to find cost savings and quick, then you are deluding yourself.

shltter wrote: »

Second you are wrong Public servants and semi state jobs exist to serve the entire country not just one section of the country. And your continual attempts to paint the economic crisis as a battle between public and private sectors does nothing to solve the problems but is a good diversion from the actual cause of the problem.

I know that you didn't cause the crisis. I know that Johnny Civil Servant didn't cause the crisis. I know I didn't cause the crisis. We are in a crisis regardless and much as it angers me, we will not be able to get out of this by just pointing fingers at FF/The Bankers/The Developers etc. etc. etc. This is real life and your unions may like to tell you that a global worker revolution is on the way and we'll all live in a socialist paradise if we just hold our nerve but in reality that isn't the way out of this mess and we'll ALL have to take job cuts/pay cuts/increased taxes including those of you in the semi-state sector. By the way, the public service serves the rest of the public service by accident not design-the public service is there to facilitate private industry (the only sector of the economy which brings any real money into Ireland and we export 85% of our goods and services-that 85% is where your wages ultimately comes from shltter though you might not like to accept that!).

shltter wrote: »

And I have not said we are not in difficult times just that exageratting it and threatening people with the IMF justs means that it is difficult to take anything you say seriously. We are nowhere near needing the IMF and even if we did your scare stories simply do not stack up the IMF have lent 2.1 billion to Iceland which given the population of Iceland would be something similar to lending 24 billion to Ireland and they have not imposed any of the draconian measures on Iceland as they are not completely stupid and realise making massive cuts in public sector pay would not only destabilise the country but also make the current recession worse.

You have no idea what conditions the IMF has imposed on the Icelandic government. That will transpire. The IMF has a well deserved reputation for a slash and burn approach to fiscal management if they are expected to bail a country out. They will look at our public service and I absolutely promise you, they will demand large scale cuts before bailing us out. My ultimate point however is that if the likes of you were actually willing to make changes (you're not even losing your job!!) and pay more into the pot, we can get out of this together. Old fashioned union dinosaurs will happily bankrupt this country if they are allowed. I know of firms closed by SIPTU through a total lack of flexibility and I know ex-employees of these firms who blame SIPTU 100% for their job losses. Do you want to be one of those or will you accept a few work practice changes and hold on to your job? Do you even realise how many tens of thousands of people on the dole would gladly trade places with you and gladly accept ANY terms offered??

murphaph

shltter wrote: »

And i called you his pal as the 2 of you follow each other around here slapping each other on the back and posting the same thing

Boo hoo, is there no solidarity with your position on here? Maybe the works canteen or Liberty Hall is a better place to find similar views cos the majority here can see the writing on the wall. WE HAVE NO MONEY!

shltter

paulm17781 wrote: »

we're spending more than we are bringing in. Our credit rating is slipping, borrowing is becoming more expensive. Not because of banks, that rate is falling. Our country's credit rate is falling too. Look into the economics of that. Now, we can't borrow until we balance the books. This is not my opinion, it is fact.



We need to reduce salaries, I've been saying for 4 years that our minimum wage is too high. It is the governments job to lead in that. They can't make private industries lower their wages but they can make their own staff. Nearly all private sector workers have taken pay cuts in the last 3 months, myself included. The private sector are taking cuts as we have no choice. The public sector are being their usual whiney b itch selves.

Bull**** I don't know anyone that has taken an actual cut in basic pay they have lost out on bonuses etc but no cuts in basic pay. If you want to tell me I am wrong tell me what your pay cut was and where you work and then list some of the other companies that have cut pay as you say nearly all i expect a long list.

paulm17781 wrote: »

Just wait and see until our black hole grows. Iceland's banks collapsed, the Euro has saved us so far. We have one of the biggest falls coming and we have no where near enough native industry to support us. Unless we start competing with Eastern Europe and China on wages, we're in serious trouble. The best way the government can drive down wages is???? The public sector, well done.

Now, keep calling everything anyone else says rubbish. Keep striking for your plot and screw the rest of us. Just don't expect people to support you other than "your pals"

The euro has deprived us of being able to devalue our currency which would have been the obvious step look at the UK.
And you are off your head if you think we can compete with Eastern Europe and China for manufacturing jobs
Chinese wages are about $30 a week
And even in Poland the wage is around 100/€150 a week

Good luck with cutting wages to compete with that.



And of you go again with your public versus private diversion

shltter

murphaph wrote: »

I agree that we need a broader evenue base and I AM 100% READY TO PAY HIGHER TAXES TO SUPPORT THE UNFORTUNATES WHO LOSE THEIR JOBS! (I'm a real socialist you see, not a SIPTU/NBRU type socialist). We MUST drastically reduce current expenditure at the same time and you fall in that category-you are current government expenditure, whether you like it or not. If you think for one second that the Minister for Transport hasn't already directed CIE and her group of companies to find cost savings and quick, then you are deluding yourself.


I know that you didn't cause the crisis. I know that Johnny Civil Servant didn't cause the crisis. I know I didn't cause the crisis. We are in a crisis regardless and much as it angers me, we will not be able to get out of this by just pointing fingers at FF/The Bankers/The Developers etc. etc. etc. This is real life and your unions may like to tell you that a global worker revolution is on the way and we'll all live in a socialist paradise if we just hold our nerve but in reality that isn't the way out of this mess and we'll ALL have to take job cuts/pay cuts/increased taxes including those of you in the semi-state sector. By the way, the public service serves the rest of the public service by accident not design-the public service is there to facilitate private industry (the only sector of the economy which brings any real money into Ireland and we export 85% of our goods and services-that 85% is where your wages ultimately comes from shltter though you might not like to accept that!).


You have no idea what conditions the IMF has imposed on the Icelandic government. That will transpire. The IMF has a well deserved reputation for a slash and burn approach to fiscal management if they are expected to bail a country out. They will look at our public service and I absolutely promise you, they will demand large scale cuts before bailing us out. My ultimate point however is that if the likes of you were actually willing to make changes (you're not even losing your job!!) and pay more into the pot, we can get out of this together. Old fashioned union dinosaurs will happily bankrupt this country if they are allowed. I know of firms closed by SIPTU through a total lack of flexibility and I know ex-employees of these firms who blame SIPTU 100% for their job losses. Do you want to be one of those or will you accept a few work practice changes and hold on to your job? Do you even realise how many tens of thousands of people on the dole would gladly trade places with you and gladly accept ANY terms offered??

IMF Survey online: Is the IMF asking Iceland to cut back on spending?

Thomsen: We are not telling Iceland to tighten its belt in the middle of a recession. During the first year of the program, automatic fiscal stabilizers will be allowed to work. This means there will be an increase in the primary fiscal deficit from about ½ percent of GDP in 2008 to about 8½ percent of GDP in 2009. We in the IMF are not suggesting resisting this deterioration because we think it is wrong, in the face of a deep recession, to embark on fiscal consolidation.

Having said that, Iceland will need to consolidate its finances once the recession has bottomed out. Because of the banking crisis, Iceland has gone overnight from being one of the lowest indebted countries in Europe, to being among the highest indebted advanced countries in Europe: Taking care of the problems in the banking sector will probably cost the public sector about 80 percent of GDP. How exactly the government achieves this consolidation—through either expenditure cuts or higher revenues, or a combination of both—will be up to Icelandic authorities to decide.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2008/int111908a.htm

shltter

MOH wrote: »

Really?

You've got a problem with your management. The company isn't being run properly. You guys are in the front line taking any grief from passengers about shoddy services, while management don't have to face this, and to top things off, are trying to make your life worse by making changes which may (given I've no first hand knowledge) contravene previous agreements they made with you.

You believe that there's a demand for public transport - obviously, a lot of this demand comes from commuters.

Your solution is an indefinite strike.

So, in order to resolve your issues with your management, you seem to be quite happy to disrupt everyone else's ability to do their job. In doing so, you're putting your interests above theirs. Which is probably fair enough, from your point of view.

On the other hand, nobody else particularly cares about what issues you have with your management. Whatever sympathy you might have had is gone out the window as soon as you decide your problem is more important than theirs. Lots of them have their own problems with their own management treating them badly, about which you don't care. If (daft example) all the IT staff in every bank in the country decided to go on strike on a bank holiday Friday, and you couldn't pay for anything all weekend because you couldn't get any cash out, would you really care about what kind of issues they had with your management? I've worked in places where the staff were treated badly, where management continually wanted more for less, and I did what most people would do - I left and took my chances.

So, what makes Dublin Bus drivers so different from everyone else that justifies disrupting masses of commuters because of an internal issue between you and your management?

Basically what you seem to be saying is you have a grievance but sort it out without bothering me as I don't care.

Well of course you don't care I don't expect you to care however at the end of the day if you have a dispute with your employer and they are intent on breaching legal agreements negotiated and approved by the Labour Court and the employer refuses to discuss the matter with the employees elected representatives you are left with a choice

Just rollover and accept it or withdraw your labour in this case the threat of a withdrawal of Labour has at least made the company see the light and engaged in negotiations.

murphaph

shltter wrote: »

Bull**** I don't know anyone that has taken an actual cut in basic pay they have lost out on bonuses etc but no cuts in basic pay. If you want to tell me I am wrong tell me what your pay cut was and where you work and then list some of the other companies that have cut pay as you say nearly all i expect a long list.

My firm has told us that pay cuts will be requested at review time (end March). The private sector of course is not just employees, it's employers so many firms are taking vastly reduced profits as they are already paying minimum wage and can't legally reduce their wage bill effectively. Many of these firms (small shops etc.) will simply go to the wall and take all the jobs with them. Of course shltter, when a guy in the private sector loses his job he is taking a 100% pay cut. There were 38,000 such 100% pay cuts in January-is that not enough for you???

shltter wrote: »

The euro has deprived us of being able to devalue our currency which would have been the obvious step look at the UK.

The UK didn't devalue its currency. It just fell against the Euro because the UK is seen as high risk at the moment (as we would have been if we had our own currency, in fact we'd probably have a currency worth about as much as the Zimbabwe Dollar right about now).

shltter wrote: »

And you are off your head if you think we can compete with Eastern Europe and China for manufacturing jobs
Chinese wages are about $30 a week
And even in Poland the wage is around 100/€150 a week

So what do you suggest we do to bring in foreign currency? We need to export so what should we export? Bus journeys?

shltter wrote: »

Good luck with cutting wages to compete with that.

Wages need to be cut to a level at least on a par with Northern Ireland! We currently pay ourselves more than the rest of Western Europe. We can't even compete with Western Europe on wages, nevermind Poland. Something needs to be done urgently to restore some sanity to irish wages (including yours). Should we just tell Intel to pack up shop now or at least try to compete?

shltter wrote: »

And of you go again with your public versus private diversion

It's not a diversion. The public sector has shown no willingness to share the pain. You seem to expect your wages to remain static (or even increase!) and that the dwindling number of private sector employers and employees ahould foot the bill! Do you see any strikes mooted in the private sector right now? Why is that?

shltter

murphaph wrote: »

My firm has told us that pay cuts will be requested at review time (end March). The private sector of course is not just employees, it's employers so many firms are taking vastly reduced profits as they are already paying minimum wage and can't legally reduce their wage bill effectively. Many of these firms (small shops etc.) will simply go to the wall and take all the jobs with them. Of course shltter, when a guy in the private sector loses his job he is taking a 100% pay cut. There were 38,000 such 100% pay cuts in January-is that not enough for you???

Blather you claimed nearly all private sector workers took a pay cut I asked you what was yours and the answer is you have not taken one the rest of your answer is diversionary bull****.

murphaph wrote: »

The UK didn't devalue its currency. It just fell against the Euro because the UK is seen as high risk at the moment (as we would have been if we had our own currency, in fact we'd probably have a currency worth about as much as the Zimbabwe Dollar right about now).

It allowed its currency to devalue

murphaph wrote: »

So what do you suggest we do to bring in foreign currency? We need to export so what should we export? Bus journeys?

No we should start paying 50 cent an hour and give the chinese a run for their money :rolleyes:

murphaph wrote: »

Wages need to be cut to a level at least on a par with Northern Ireland! We currently pay ourselves more than the rest of Western Europe. We can't even compete with Western Europe on wages, nevermind Poland. Something needs to be done urgently to restore some sanity to irish wages (including yours). Should we just tell Intel to pack up shop now or at least try to compete?

What are my wages as a matter of interest

murphaph wrote: »

It's not a diversion. The public sector has shown no willingness to share the pain. You seem to expect your wages to remain static (or even increase!) and that the dwindling number of private sector employers and employees ahould foot the bill! Do you see any strikes mooted in the private sector right now? Why is that?

It is a diversion and an excuse for you to indulge in your favourite sport public sector bashing

dfx-

What's diversionary about pointing out the lack of money and hence jobs in Ireland by the 38,000 job losses in January alone? People who won't need the 78A every ten minutes. But let's keep those drivers and sack the management.

And what's diversionary about DB unions and employees not only thinking they have a right to be excluded from this job cull, but also to retain what was agreed in different conditions? Or that they didn't cause it so they shouldn't suffer..

Unless there's no answer to it, of course

shltter

dfx- wrote: »

What's diversionary about pointing out the lack of money and hence jobs in Ireland by the 38,000 job losses in January alone? People who won't need the 78A every ten minutes. But let's keep those drivers and sack the management.

And what's diversionary about DB unions and employees not only thinking they have a right to be excluded from this job cull, but also to retain what was agreed in different conditions? Or that they didn't cause it so they shouldn't suffer..

Unless there's no answer to it, of course

What is diversionary is the whole public versus private thing that certain elements are very keen to ferment.

Yes there has been 38,000 jobs lost in January but given that there is still in excess of 2 million working scrapping buses seems a little shortsighted.

DB drivers through their union are arguing for a fair redundancy as offered to other grades within Dublin Bus
And many of the conditions that Dublin Bus management are trying to change were agreed in worse times than this but irrespective of that the company has to engage the unions to negotiate any changes to our agreed terms of employment something they refused to do till last wednesday

markpb

shltter wrote: »

What is diversionary is the whole public versus private thing that certain elements are very keen to ferment. Yes there has been 38,000 jobs lost in January but given that there is still in excess of 2 million working scrapping buses seems a little shortsighted.

I never support public transport strikes but shltter makes a huge point here that people are missing. We _NEED_ public transport. Cutting it because the government made a hash of the route planning and the local authorities couldn't organise a bus lane if it killed them, is incredibly short sighted. If people are poorer because they're unemployed or have taken a pay cut, they need public transport more than ever. Removing buses and routes now will just make it harder for poorer people to get to work, will encourage middle income people to buy a car and pay more taxes and will hurt our infrastructure in the long term.

John Lynch wrote a stupid article in the IT a few weeks ago justifying the cuts because of the fall in numbers. He spoke as if there was no way DB could grow it's numbers because so many people had left Ireland. What about all the people sitting in cars beside you, dummy? Do you think they wouldn't take public transport if it was better? Do you think your numbers won't fall further if your service gets worse?

If we made the service better and more efficient, we could save money *and* have a better service. Instead the government opts for the slash and burn approach which destroyes public transport and rises VRT and petrol taxes.

AlekSmart

If people are poorer because they're unemployed or have taken a pay cut, they need public transport more than ever. Removing buses and routes now will just make it harder for poorer people to get to work, will encourage middle income people to buy a car and pay more taxes and will hurt our infrastructure in the long term.

One would have thought that line of thinking was self evident.
However,the Minister and the good Dr.Lynch appear to believe that the most pressing imperative for any recently unemployed person is to use their resources to buy a "little car".

If those persons are reluctant to do so then our dynamic duo are taking steps to ensure that any available Public Transport options are substantially reduced thereby "encouraging" the modal shift so necessary to placate the Ministers PPP and associated supporters.

John Lynch wrote a stupid article in the IT a few weeks ago justifying the cuts because of the fall in numbers. He spoke as if there was no way DB could grow it's numbers because so many people had left Ireland. What about all the people sitting in cars beside you, dummy? Do you think they wouldn't take public transport if it was better? Do you think your numbers won't fall further if your service gets worse?

I too was somewhat nonplussed by Dr Lynch`s Irish Times article.

I felt it was a somewhat spectacular Talking-Down of the CIE Road Passenger companies that bordered on corporate sabotage.

I would have preferred if My Chairman had mounted some form of defence of his Companies willingness to embrace change at all levels,already proven by a string of existing agreements.

Equally,I would have preferred my Chairman to reinforce to his Minister that the Deloitte Report had been largely supportive of the general performance of BOTH companies under his stewardship.

I would have appreciated it if my Chairman had utilized the Irish Times to seek a public apology from Minister Dempsey following the failure of the Deloitte team to find any real evidence of concealment or mismanagement,the suspicions of which had led to Deloitte being involved i the first place.

At no point in Dr Lynch`s article was there any mention of how the current and most likely ongoing reduction in our lifestyles could be harnessed to benefit his companies and the Public at large.

Whilst his junior middle management are wandering abroad dissemenating gloomy projections such as withdrawal of some 84X journeys due to poor patronage,the good Doctor could have allocated some minimal funding towards publicising the 84X in the East Wicklow region.

I rather suspect that there are one or two potential 84X customers in it`s general catchment area who are blissfully unaware of how for €1.80 they could journey into the City Centre in approximately one hour then transfer to any other Route and theoretically travel to Maynooth,Skerries or Blessington ON THE SAME €1.80 FARE.
It would cost more to run a bicycle !

However,for whatever reason Dr Lynch chose to focus rather more tightly on the readily apparrent financial situation,the gravity of which is Not at Issue from any quarter.

The CIE RP situation could well be said to be the Ireland Inc situation in microcosm whereby the presence of new modern infrastructure and willing labourforce is deemed far too simple a tool to utilize.