Can one now leave Eircom Internet service provider for breach of contract?

Run_to_da_hills

In a fascist move by Eircom, forced on by Irma, Irish internet users are to be blocked from accessing file swapping torrent websites, as internet service providers bow to pressure from the music industry.

This is obviously a far easier and cheaper option for them than to be chasing up IP addresses of illegal downloading offenders. Many of these torrent sites also provide an excellent source of free domain shareware and it is also not just confined to music as Eircom seems to imply

Surely this is a breach of contract by not providing the full services that you expected when you initially signed the contract and chose Eircom as your service provider.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=39782-qqqx=1.asp

Cabaal

Link you've posted is broken
I assume your reffering to this?

I#'d suggest you read your T&C's, if its outlined that eircom can do this then no you can't leave for breach of contract as you agreed to this when you first signed up.

Run_to_da_hills

Cabaal wrote: »

Link you've posted is broken
I assume your reffering to this?

I#'d suggest you read your T&C's, if its outlined that eircom can do this then no you can't leave for breach of contract as you agreed to this when you first signed up.

Fixed

MagicMarker

Well, I don't really download music a lot anymore. But if they block the torrent sites that I use for movies, then I'll simply leave Eircom.

Eircom will be the only one's who lose out here.

Run_to_da_hills

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well, I don't really download music a lot anymore. But if they block the torrent sites that I use for movies, then I'll simply leave Eircom.

Eircom will be the only one's who lose out here.

Edited it again to file swapping websites.

Cabaal

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well, I don't really download music a lot anymore. But if they block the torrent sites that I use for movies, then I'll simply leave Eircom.

Eircom will be the only one's who lose out here.

I wouldn't recommend you admit to downloading movies through torrent sites on an open forum like boards.ie...unless of course if these are not copyright movies your fine.

mickoneill30

There's a lot of torrent sites out there. IRMA / Eircom can block the main ones but there's plenty of alternatives. People were (and still are) using IRC and News to download music before torrents were around. While the music companies are jumping up and down over torrents those other two protocols are still working away.

MagicMarker

Cabaal wrote: »

I wouldn't recommend you admit to downloading movies through torrent sites on an open forum like boards.ie...unless of course if these are not copyright movies your fine.

Of course they're not copyrighted.

*shifty eyes*

Nody

A simple proxy website provider will get you around the filters of a ISP (which tend to be bad in the first place and rarely updated).

Iago

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well, I don't really download music a lot anymore. But if they block the torrent sites that I use for movies, then I'll simply leave Eircom.

Eircom will be the only one's who lose out here.

Good luck with downloading over dial-up. If you think that any other ISP in Ireland isn't going to follow suit if eircom agree to this then you're deluded.

eircom are the only ISP that don't cap or throttle customers when they go over their allowances. There have been rumours for the last 12 months that UPC are already throttling access to certain p2p addresses as it is.

if the eircom legal team couldn't find a way to win their case I'd doubt that perlico/bt/upc/whoever will have any more luck.

mickoneill30

Iago wrote: »

eircom are the only ISP that don't cap or throttle customers when they go over their allowances. There have been rumours for the last 12 months that UPC are already throttling access to certain p2p addresses as it is.

I'm with Irish Broadband. They don't have allowances (on their €50 plan anyway, don't know about the others). They don't throttle either.

I'm not a legal person by any means but EU rules like this seem to suggest that Eircom / IRMA might face some resistance.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/09/eu-parliament-judges-must-be-involved-in-three-strikes-rules.ars

mukki

Iago wrote: »

Good luck with downloading over dial-up. If you think that any other ISP in Ireland isn't going to follow suit if eircom agree to this then you're deluded.

eircom are the only ISP that don't cap or throttle customers when they go over their allowances. There have been rumours for the last 12 months that UPC are already throttling access to certain p2p addresses as it is.

if the eircom legal team couldn't find a way to win their case I'd doubt that perlico/bt/upc/whoever will have any more luck.

good point.......

you could use dial up to get the .torrent

ShooterSF

Iago wrote: »

if the eircom legal team couldn't find a way to win their case I'd doubt that perlico/bt/upc/whoever will have any more luck.

I think you're widely mistaken here. Eircom didn't lose a court case they agreed with another business to do this. This isn't a legal precedent. If any of these companies stands up to this they would most likely win or atleast have it thrown out. It's the equivalent of a record company suing eircom cause I played a copyrighted song over the phone to you. It's eircom's line after all.....

Iago

ShooterSF wrote: »

I think you're widely mistaken here. Eircom didn't lose a court case they agreed with another business to do this. This isn't a legal precedent. If any of these companies stands up to this they would most likely win or atleast have it thrown out. It's the equivalent of a record company suing eircom cause I played a copyrighted song over the phone to you. It's eircom's line after all.....

eircom initiated court proceedings to fight this, before those proceedings started they came to an agreement with IRMA. Now why would they do that if they believed they'd win the case? I'm guessing they looked at what was likely to happen and based on their chances of winning or losing the case made a call to make an arrangement outside of court.

Again my point is (and based on my assumptions above) if the eircom legal team started a court case and then based on the information they had and researched felt it would be better to come to an agreement with IRMA outside the court, I think it's unlikely that any other ISP will have any further success.

As for your last point I think you're widely off the mark. The whole "just a conduit" argument doesn't really hold sway from a legal point of view. Legally the judge wants to know 4 simple things

1. How much did the illegal uploading of files cost the industry?
2. Can you identify the sites and files that are having this effect?
3. Can you identify the users that are doing this?
4. Can you disconnect these users?

given that the answers to questions 2-4 are yes, eircom or any other ISP for that matter really doesn't have a leg to stand on. They are facilitating copyright infringement and as a business entity have to be seen to be willing to crack down on this illegal activity, in much the same way as they do for child porn etc.

Red Alert

What about the way that legal software like OpenOffice.org and Valve's Steam system uses P2P protocols?

mickoneill30

Red Alert wrote: »

What about the way that legal software like OpenOffice.org and Valve's Steam system uses P2P protocols?

That's one argument. But it's not hard to target sites like PIRATEbay. They don't really make any bones about their site being for illegal purposes.

I'd say Eircom will block a couple of sites as IRMA targets them. That'll leave Eircoms customers a couple of hundred other sites to choose from. IRMAs happy, Eircoms legally OK and customers that want to download music keep downloading music.

thefinalstage

"I swear, I thought it was legal. eircom block all the illegal sites don't they?!" /defense

ShooterSF

Iago wrote: »

eircom initiated court proceedings to fight this, before those proceedings started they came to an agreement with IRMA. Now why would they do that if they believed they'd win the case? I'm guessing they looked at what was likely to happen and based on their chances of winning or losing the case made a call to make an arrangement outside of court.

Because it was very clever. There is no way Eircom on their own can tell what you're downloading without joining the torrents themselves. There are plenty of legit torrents out there so proving you use torrent sites or p2p is not a legit reason to cut off someone's service. However they would likely have a problem with IRMA court cases over individual users IP addresses when IRMA put out their "plant downloads". This way however Eircom avoid further court issues by saying give us the IP address and we'll take care of it. They block a few heavy users (which they hate anyway) as proof they're taking action and they let the lil ones carry on and collect their bills. Perfect.

Again my point is (and based on my assumptions above) if the eircom legal team started a court case and then based on the information they had and researched felt it would be better to come to an agreement with IRMA outside the court, I think it's unlikely that any other ISP will have any further success.

On your assuptions probable, on mine possible. It would depend on what each company felt was in their best interests(based on my previous assumptions).

As for your last point I think you're widely off the mark. The whole "just a conduit" argument doesn't really hold sway from a legal point of view. Legally the judge wants to know 4 simple things

1. How much did the illegal uploading of files cost the industry?
2. Can you identify the sites and files that are having this effect?
3. Can you identify the users that are doing this?
4. Can you disconnect these users?

given that the answers to questions 2-4 are yes, eircom or any other ISP for that matter really doesn't have a leg to stand on. They are facilitating copyright infringement and as a business entity have to be seen to be willing to crack down on this illegal activity, in much the same way as they do for child porn etc.

Hmm Im not sure. For example question 2 should be: Can you identify the files that are having this effect? After all there are plent of sites hosting legit and illegal files. You can't tell if someone visits this site that they are breaking the law. Now the answer to question 3 becomes tougher. Can eircom tell exactly what file you download and if it is copyrighted? I don't think it's easy to do that (maybe Im wrong) Then the answer to 4 becomes irrelevant.

(Note: I don't have a problem if they stop people breaking the law. You know you're doing it so you should accept the decision but this tactic I don't like it gets around the whole innocent until proven guilty by removing the legal system from the issue)

Welease

thelastangryman wrote: »

"I swear, I thought it was legal. eircom block all the illegal sites don't they?!" /defense

I don't think ignorance has ever been an accepted defence in law

MOH

Iago wrote: »

eircom are the only ISP that don't cap or throttle customers when they go over their allowances. There have been rumours for the last 12 months that UPC are already throttling access to certain p2p addresses as it is.

Smart don't have a cap or throttle anything.

Iago wrote: »

As for your last point I think you're widely off the mark. The whole "just a conduit" argument doesn't really hold sway from a legal point of view. Legally the judge wants to know 4 simple things

1. How much did the illegal uploading of files cost the industry?
2. Can you identify the sites and files that are having this effect?
3. Can you identify the users that are doing this?
4. Can you disconnect these users?

given that the answers to questions 2-4 are yes, eircom or any other ISP for that matter really doesn't have a leg to stand on. They are facilitating copyright infringement and as a business entity have to be seen to be willing to crack down on this illegal activity, in much the same way as they do for child porn etc.

That's a completely different matter to blocking access to sites because someone *might* download something illegal from them.

JohnC.

http://www.betanews.com/article/EU_regulations_block_Italian_ISPs_from_blocking_Pirate_Bay/1223674947
http://torrentfreak.com/danish-pirate-bay-block-breaks-eu-law-080213/

Italy and Denmark tried blocking The Pirate Bay before, but it turns out it is illegal.

Pub07

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In a fascist move by Eircom, forced on by Irma, Irish internet users are to be blocked from accessing file swapping torrent websites, as internet service providers bow to pressure from the music industry.

This is obviously a far easier and cheaper option for them than to be chasing up IP addresses of illegal downloading offenders. Many of these torrent sites also provide an excellent source of free domain shareware and it is also not just confined to music as Eircom seems to imply

Surely this is a breach of contract by not providing the full services that you expected when you initially signed the contract and chose Eircom as your service provider.

http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS-qqqs=news-qqqid=39782-qqqx=1.asp

Lets be honest though, 99% of the downloads from torrent sites are basically illegal downloads of copyrighted material - movies, games, music, software. There's no point getting on your moral high horse over it when it's basically just outlawing illegal downloads. Not saying I like what Eircom are doing but it's like giving out about the government making it impossible for you to steal from a shop/bank/etc...your point seems to be "how dare they stop us from stealing copyrighted material"!

ch750536

Unfortunately, to combat this kind of move the torrent clients are moving over to using the same ports and transport as VOIP (traffic shaping I mean).

Downside, my VOIP will be blocked!

Nody

Pub07 wrote: »

Lets be honest though, 99% of the downloads from torrent sites are basically illegal downloads of copyrighted material - movies, games, music, software. There's no point getting on your moral high horse over it when it's basically just outlawing illegal downloads. Not saying I like what Eircom are doing but it's like giving out about the government making it impossible for you to steal from a shop/bank/etc...your point seems to be "how dare they stop us from stealing copyrighted material"!

Then let the GOVERNMENT go to court on it instead of having a companies benefitting from weak controls of truth randomly hand out punishment to people. If there is a crime comittied (and remember it is not stealing, this is a copy right violation, very important difference) then let the police prosecute people accordingly.

This is like allowing a company set up speed cameras and allow them to send out fines for people speeding with out going through the judical system. Want to guess how many "guilty" people they will find?

aidan_walsh

Kahless wrote: »

http://www.betanews.com/article/EU_regulations_block_Italian_ISPs_from_blocking_Pirate_Bay/1223674947
http://torrentfreak.com/danish-pirate-bay-block-breaks-eu-law-080213/

Italy and Denmark tried blocking The Pirate Bay before, but it turns out it is illegal.

As far as I can tell this case doesn't fall under the circumstances of either, as the courts are not ordering the site blocked as in the first link, nor is Eircom being held responsible for the actions of their customers as in the second. So it is not illegal (IMO, IANAL) on those grounds.

EDIT: Ah yes, IRMA will need to go through the courts with the list, so it may well fall under the remit of the first case. I wonder...

Run_to_da_hills

Pub07 wrote: »

Lets be honest though, 99% of the downloads from torrent sites are basically illegal downloads of copyrighted material - movies, games, music, software. There's no point getting on your moral high horse over it when it's basically just outlawing illegal downloads. Not saying I like what Eircom are doing but it's like giving out about the government making it impossible for you to steal from a shop/bank/etc...your point seems to be "how dare they stop us from stealing copyrighted material"!

Thats a sweeping statement. Plenty of people download legitimate shareware, game samples, free domaine classical music etc.

If every company started to take the law into their own hands we would have corporate anarchy. If service providers get away with this what next would they try, censorship of personal x rated websites and bad language from blogs?.

Jack Bauer999

Iago wrote: »

Good luck with downloading over dial-up. If you think that any other ISP in Ireland isn't going to follow suit if eircom agree to this then you're deluded.

eircom are the only ISP that don't cap or throttle customers when they go over their allowances. There have been rumours for the last 12 months that UPC are already throttling access to certain p2p addresses as it is.

if the eircom legal team couldn't find a way to win their case I'd doubt that perlico/bt/upc/whoever will have any more luck.

all this provides is more reason not to get your broadband with eircom, hopefully the other companoes dont follow suit (i havent heard of any of them
planning to) If they dont then eircom's broadband business is going to die a very quick death.

Pub07

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Thats a sweeping statement. Plenty of people download legitimate shareware, game samples, free domaine classical music etc.

Sweeping but true. Dont try and tell me that 99% of torrents aren't for copyrighted music, games, movies and software because 99% is probably a conservative estimate, it's probably closer to 99.9%. The examples you gave are all available with less hassle off normal websites. Who goes to a torrent site to find some little shareware program to fulfill a task they might have? No-one, they search google for say 'batch image converter' or 'mpeg avi converter' etc as its far handier and you can actually see some info on the app you are about to download.

As for game samples, thats laughable, if people use torrents its not to get a game sample, its to get the actual game. As for free domain classical music, thats ridiculous, you think torrents should be allowed so a few people can download some classical music songs, which they could get more easily on a normal website, which in the process leaves the gates open for millions of people to download copyrighted material.

If every company started to take the law into their own hands we would have corporate anarchy. If service providers get away with this what next would they try, censorship of personal x rated websites and bad language from blogs?.

Your right, if we allow this, whats next? Maybe they will ban the colour blue from all websites or maybe even get rid of the internet altogether!

The only company I can see trying to get something regulated is the one representing groups that are getting ripped off 24/7 by millions of people downloading copyrighted material. Its pointless trying to make Eircom and IRMA out to be the bad guys here when they are trying to stop illegal activity, the people downloading the copyrighted material are the ones in the wrong.

Nody

The only company I can see trying to get something regulated is the one representing groups that are getting ripped off 24/7 by millions of people downloading copyrighted material. Its pointless trying to make Eircom and IRMA out to be the bad guys here when they are trying to stop illegal activity, the people downloading the copyrighted material are the ones in the wrong.

You mean the same company that said radio would kill their business? That lobbied to not allow video recorders for private use? That sued a PRINTER at a university for file sharing? That sent a letter of cease and desist to a dead person? Yea, those are the good guys here.

And once again a private company has NOTHING to do in the law enforcement business. If there is a crime committed then the gardai should investigate and hand over to prosecution. It can then go up in court if the prosecutor thinks he can get a conviction. That is known as a legal system with checks and balances, it appears to be a new concept to you.

It is not up to a individual company to go after offenders and meek out justice as it see fit because it is a company. Companies are driven by this thing called profit which means that they will do anything, including lying in court, bullying people and general harassment to try to get their way. This has been proven over and over again as long as there has been companies out there and the music/movie industry has been one of the bigger offenders in this.

This is the banner on TPB and it sums it up nicely.

Pub07

So Nody, I take it you would be against Eircom blocking child porn if there was a way to do it? I mean if a crime is committed then the gardai should investigate and hand over to prosecution rather than Eircom moving to prevent the crime (creating or view it) happening in the first place.

calex71

half the country cries fowl now cuz there's no more free music on the connection they where foolish enough to sign up to in the 1st place and they dont realize that torrents are the easiest way to get caught obtaining said music and that they are not the only way to do so


Seriously though I can understand why eircom would block sites if they are going to be held liable for this. Any business would do the same. Would people prefer to be taken to court ??????? there was a whole piece on piracy in the 6-1 news to night did yee see it??? Sharron says piracy is wrong so we need to listen to her

Nody

Pub07 wrote: »

So Nody, I take it you would be against Eircom blocking child porn if there was a way to do it? I mean if a crime is committed then the gardai should investigate and hand over to prosecution rather than Eircom moving to prevent the crime (creating or view it) happening in the first place.

Heck yes! Why? Because a) Eircom will no be able to block me from accessing it (assuming I had an interest in it) short of blocking every proxy server on the Internet AND having a complete list of every site with child porn that is updated by the hour and b) it is not their job to prevent a crime but to report it to the appropriate authorities. A company will NEVER be able to properly do the job and even assuming they could some how manage to pull of A I could go to Usernet, IRC, Direct to Drive, DVD swapping etc. instead to get my "kick". All you end up with is a shady implementation of what is not allowed AND no way to actually know what I'm doing (what you're suggesting has been tried).

Net result? A implementation that limit the access for all users with out any effect to give a feel good feeling. Pretty much like certain newly set up American departments after 11/9 or the limits on liquid in the airport controls.

And if anyone thinks such a implementation would stop at torrent site or child porn sites is delusional. After torrent sites there will be a high profile case for rape/paedophile/terrorism/city racing which killed a lot of innocent. It turns out the person was watching on the Internet how to/got excited/wanted to try; the survivors/victims then starts to petition to have such sites added to the list as well. Then the police sees hey, this work, and want to add different sites that sell drugs/make bombs/<insert illegal or shady activity here> as well, for the good of society of course. Only problem is of course that fact that people tend to be careless and very few sites are black or white you start to block grey sites as well with legit, fully allowed material.

And there stands my objection, society should not be my nanny telling me what I can read or do. It can set laws for what it considers to be socially acceptable behaviour which I have to follow but it should not be allowed to say what I'm allowed to read, see or investigate. That is setting a very dangerous precedent and we have seen the after effect in 11/9, the airport security controls etc. that society is apt to knee jerk reactions AND inept on doing such a job properly. Net result is limited access for no gain, not a trade I'm willing to do.

MOH

Pub07 wrote: »

Sweeping but true. Dont try and tell me that 99% of torrents aren't for copyrighted music, games, movies and software because 99% is probably a conservative estimate, it's probably closer to 99.9%. The examples you gave are all available with less hassle off normal websites. Who goes to a torrent site to find some little shareware program to fulfill a task they might have? No-one, they search google for say 'batch image converter' or 'mpeg avi converter' etc as its far handier and you can actually see some info on the app you are about to download.

I've used torrents to download both game demos and (legal) free software, simply because I've got better speeds than elsewhere for large downloads.
It's a dangerous precedent blocking customers from specific websites on the basis that some (or even most) might use those to access copyright material. What's next? Suppose a dicussion board less moderated than boards allows discussion in one forum on how to get around such a block. Do Eircom ban access to that site?
Whatever about the 3 strikes thing, I can't see all the other ISPs going along with this.

Helix

aidan_walsh wrote: »

As far as I can tell this case doesn't fall under the circumstances of either, as the courts are not ordering the site blocked as in the first link, nor is Eircom being held responsible for the actions of their customers as in the second. So it is not illegal (IMO, IANAL) on those grounds.

EDIT: Ah yes, IRMA will need to go through the courts with the list, so it may well fall under the remit of the first case. I wonder...

for the second one, surely eircom ARE being held responsible for the actions of their customers... what else would irma be threatening to sue them for if they dont cooperate?

Run_to_da_hills

Incidental Eircom has backed off the blocking of Pirate Bay until such time as its is forced to do so by court injunction. Proper order.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/02/eircom-no-pirate-bay-blockade-until-we-get-a-court-order.ars

calex71

gotta love it

Clone

I thought I add my 2 cents

I understand the concerns about copyright infringements coming from a media creation background, but one good thing that has come out of downloading copyrighted music is that artists can't simply stick together a great studio album and sit back and watch the cash come in; They have to get out there and perform in front of their fans to make a real income and prove they actually can sing and do have a good voice.

These days Anybody can record an album and post produce it to sound like a top seller the real artists can get on the road an perform to the people who pay their wages.

With regards to sofware, I don't think software companies would have as many sales without pirate software. Students who persue careers in ITC industries can only learn from priated software as it prohibitively expensive to buy a version of a software which will be out of date by the time you've learnt it. These people generally go on to purchase a personal license or reccommend that their companies do.

qwertplaywert

Tbh if they keep pushing after torrents, other methods will just become more popular than they already are- i.e. newgroups, 1 click htp downloading, etc.

CorkFenian

Torrenting only for past year or so..Mainly for films, some top 10 ones but mainly documentaries.How much would people torrent here..I use the usual public sites....Have seen online talk of private ones??..Can someone explain for me my digitial footprint with regard to torrenting if I was to stop right now...Every time I research it, i feel fine about it..But friends who dont know anything about it always put the "You'll be caught" mentality on me...I use peer guardian 2 and tor..I know they're not 100% maybe a lot less...Would appreciate feedback on this...