Increasing socialist/left wing ideology

DJDC

It has become increasingly apparent in recent weeks both on this forum, the national media and elsewhere that there is an increasing tendency of people towards lashing out at the very concepts that define the capitalist system. Anyone earning well above average wage has come under attack and is seen as a root cause of this crisis. This has all happened before of course(Europe 1930's etc.) and is typical of any country that goes through an economic crisis as people react angrily to their current situation.

Is there a likelihood that Ireland could vote in a Sinn Fein/Labour coalition in the next election if the situation continues to deteriorate? What effect would the ensuing policies of high taxation on the rich, high corporate taxs etc have on the countries economy?

is_that_so

Extremely unlikely. SF have no policies worth talking about, are languishing in single figures and have some fairly inept politicians. To make any type of impact SF would need to be in the mid-teens. Despite the FF slide they have not managed to get anywhere near that. Also there are many, many people who would not entertain a vote for SF under any circumstances.

A little of what you are seeing is reactionary (right-wing) anger and law and order is the only thing preventing some from organising lynch mobs. Some of that anger is directed at the fact that lifestyles will have to change. What is also apparent is that there is a massive vacuum of leadership on the part of the government and into that is flowing anything and everything. Much of our daily news involves the shenanigans of bankers and their ilk and job losses. This means we get a lot of exposure to left-leaning groups and the trade unions who are past masters of pushing their own agenda.

What is also against it is the fact that we have never had a left-wing socialist government. Our preference is for centrist or at a push, left of centre government. This inevitably means FF or FG in the mix. Labour as a left of centre party could work with FG and if their numbers hold up and they win a lot of seats, they would be in a very good position to influence the direction of government.

thebigcheese22

DJDC wrote: »

It has become increasingly apparent in recent weeks both on this forum, the national media and elsewhere that there is an increasing tendency of people towards lashing out at the very concepts that define the capitalist system. Anyone earning well above average wage has come under attack and is seen as a root cause of this crisis. This has all happened before of course(Europe 1930's etc.) and is typical of any country that goes through an economic crisis as people react angrily to their current situation.

Is there a likelihood that Ireland could vote in a Sinn Fein/Labour coalition in the next election if the situation continues to deteriorate? What effect would the ensuing policies of high taxation on the rich, high corporate taxs etc have on the countries economy?

You sound like you want a McCarthy-like witch-hunt... :rolleyes:

asdasd

Since socialism in ireland invariably means transfering wealth from the ABCDE's in the private sector to the ABC's in the public sector it wont have much purchase outside that sector. I dont consider myself a socialist but I would have no problem with increases in inheritance taxes - since I will inherit nothing - and property taxes on the top 10%. but I have always believed that.

My only movement to the "left" is to believe that if we have to nationalize banks we should do it, and as fast as possible, that would have been a far left view about 2 years ago.

silverharp

asdasd wrote: »

but I would have no problem with increases in inheritance taxes - since I will inherit nothing

That a strange way of thinking though the merits of an issue.

asdasd

That a strange way of thinking though the merits of an issue.

True, but we all do it. To give a more measured response if makes a mockery of the "right wing" view of equality of oppurtunity - rather than outcome - if Paris Hilton gets billions for just being Paris Hilton, and I can get a tiny fraction of her lifestyle by working really really hard, or smart.

That said my ideology would be different were I her, or if I had a property in the top 10%.

People surround their self interest in whatever ideology fits.

P. Breathnach

asdasd wrote: »

People surround their self interest in whatever ideology fits.

That's true of most people.

I think it is also the case that many people do not even know what is in their best interests.

asdasd

I think it is also the case that many people do not even know what is in their best interests.

Yes, the working classes and their false conciousness. :-)

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think it is also the case that many people do not even know what is in their best interests.

I would add that my view of what is in my best interest includes a belief that my life is better if my neighbours are doing okay.

BroomBurner

asdasd wrote: »

Yes, the working classes and their false conciousness. :-)

It really depends on whether you're a prole or not...

OhNoYouDidn't

Good. The crony right have had their chance and destroyed the country probably for the rest of my lifetime. Time for another approach.

BroomBurner

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Good. The crony right have had their chance and destroyed the country probably for the rest of my lifetime. Time for another approach.

Have to say that I agree. Time to experiment a little. Unfortunately, the current main parties will just try to use patchwork governing to try to fix things and get them back to they way they were.

So, what political ideal would anyone like Ireland to follow next?

994

is_that_so wrote: »

Much of our daily news involves the shenanigans of bankers and their ilk and job losses. This means we get a lot of exposure to left-leaning groups and the trade unions who are past masters of pushing their own agenda.

A political group, pushing its own agenda? Whatever next!

thebang

DJDC wrote: »

It has become increasingly apparent in recent weeks both on this forum, the national media and elsewhere that there is an increasing tendency of people towards lashing out at the very concepts that define the capitalist system. Anyone earning well above average wage has come under attack and is seen as a root cause of this crisis. This has all happened before of course(Europe 1930's etc.) and is typical of any country that goes through an economic crisis as people react angrily to their current situation.

Just because we are unhappy with a few bankers does'nt really mean Marxism is coming in. I would'nt say people are against Capitalism just crony Capitalism.

mike65

In recent weeks an increasing number of threads have appeared suggesting the left shall rise again....blah blah blah.

If economic armageddon is the best hope for socialism that sugests the majority are not prediposed to the ideology.

mumhaabu

Ireland needs to move much further right not left.

Leftwing politics have been shown time and time again to not work and all they do is swell the national debt while leaving the state doing every single thing for the individual. Leftwing socialist politics basically means having the state control everything and having little economic freedom.

I laugh at mentions of a Lab/SF government his thankfully will never ever happen unless Fianna Fail starts some sort of Civil War. What is needed is an overall Majority FG government. We need tax cuts to stimulate the economy, we need to cut spending and cut out the quangos and crap the exsists.

We need less rules and laws but tighter regulation of certain industries, Banking, the legal proffession and Real Estate agents need to be regulated much more. Other regulators need to be abolished like ComReg who are useless.

We need to axe thousands in the public service and cut the wages of those remaining. We need to kill off useless projects and agencies such as the EPA and the various PC agencies such as the equality authority.

We need to lock down our borders and stop the migrant workers from the 12 new EU states from working here and reintroduce work permits. We need to look at the effects of immigration into Ireland at a time when our own kith and kin are leaving. All I see in various towns is loads of immigrants walking around hands in pockets all not working being supported by the Irish government at a time when our employees are beign taxed to extreme. Social Welfare needs to dismantled and slowly removed for all people but cut it for foreigners first.

We need to move to the right not the left and we will see our Celtic Tiger roar again, FF represents no view and exsist to line their own pockets. FF needs to have schism and have their few decent politicians join FG, an example being Cork based Noel O'Flynn. This guy basically sat out a vision of how broadband Ireland should be and it went entirely ignored by his own party. To those liberal lefties who argue for Socialism take one look at the United States a country which has seen an unprecedented economic boom from late 2002 up to 2008 and the economy of the US grew and grew every single year that President Bush was in power. His conservative policies led America on its greatest boom since WWII and weathered a war and domestic terrorism. The Democrats took the house with Nanci Pelosi (possibly america's most corrupt person) and then began this crisis.

If a teenager you are not a socialist you have no heart
If a 40yr old you are still a socialist you have no brain

Plus add to it the media brainwashing and the method used to teach our children in socialised education then it is no wonder that liberal leftwing ideas are on the rise. Amazingly within Russia now exists amongst the best hope for Capitalism and the Right having learned from the mistakes of past Bolshevism which left 100 million dead within their borders.

peasant

mumhaabu wrote: »

We need to lock down our borders and stop the migrant workers from the 12 new EU states from working here and reintroduce work permits. We need to look at the effects of immigration into Ireland at a time when our own kith and kin are leaving. All I see in various towns is loads of immigrants walking around hands in pockets all not working being supported by the Irish government at a time when our employees are beign taxed to extreme. Social Welfare needs to dismantled and slowly removed for all people but cut it for foreigners first.

Hello Adolf, long time no see

33% God

mumhaabu wrote: »

Ireland needs to move much further right not left.

Leftwing politics have been shown time and time again to not work and all they do is swell the national debt while leaving the state doing every single thing for the individual. Leftwing socialist politics basically means having the state control everything and having little economic freedom..

Oh hi there Mr.Strawman, long time no see.

We need to move to the right not the left and we will see our Celtic Tiger roar again, FF represents no view and exsist to line their own pockets. FF needs to have schism and have their few decent politicians join FG, an example being Cork based Noel O'Flynn. This guy basically sat out a vision of how broadband Ireland should be and it went entirely ignored by his own party. To those liberal lefties who argue for Socialism take one look at the United States a country which has seen an unprecedented economic boom from late 2002 up to 2008 and the economy of the US grew and grew every single year that President Bush was in power. His conservative policies led America on its greatest boom since WWII and weathered a war and domestic terrorism. The Democrats took the house with Nanci Pelosi (possibly america's most corrupt person) and then began this crisis.

This crises began when Greenspan cut interest rates in the Fed which sent us on this heady spiral towards the collapse of the banking system and the subprime crises that we see today.

As for the celtic tiger, his roars were only heard by some
The flood didn't raise all the ships. Average weekly disposable income rose only by 33.3% for the poorest 10% in the country (62.27 punts to 83.67 punts) between 1995-2000, while the richest 10% saw increases of 61.8% (695.31 to a staggering 1,125.22). Wages went from 70% of income to 60%, so profits jumped from 30% to 40%, showing that the Capitalists not only did well absolutely but also relative to wages. We also saw a 123% increase in homelessness during the boom (1996-2002).

dave-higgz

peasant wrote: »

Hello Adolf, long time no see

He's got a point. Immigration has worked so well for us because we had loads of jobs and none of the immigrants were on social welfare. They were contributing to society like all people should. However we're now at the stage where they are becoming a drain on our society. Those who are still in work or who are settled here for at least 10 years should be allowed to stay. Those who are on the dole who are only here a couple of years should not be entitled to social welfare and it is the duty of their country of origin to accept them back home and look after them with whatever help they can provide them.

peasant

Immigration hasn't worked well at all ...but that's not the fault of the immigrants.

What happened in effect was that immigrant workers were let in to build the houses that they would later rent at exorbitant prices.

All this did was to extend the building bubble some more (both in girth as well as duration) and make some more money for builders/developers and all their hangers-on.

Plus now we have thousands of empty/unfinished houses and other building projects

mike65

We'll be glad of all those empty houses in decades to come (thats the only good news looking forwards).

dave-higgz

peasant wrote: »

Plus now we have thousands of empty/unfinished houses and other building projects

Aww tell me about it. I had always wondered, even as a child in the early days of the boom, who is going to buy all of the apartments. We built more than we needed!!

ejmaztec

mike65 wrote: »

We'll be glad of all those empty houses in decades to come (thats the only good news looking forwards).

We'll have one each and there'll still be a few thousand left over.

ejmaztec

dave-higgz wrote: »

Aww tell me about it. I had always wondered, even as a child in the early days of the boom, who is going to buy all of the apartments. We built more than we needed!!

I suppose that the local authorities will somehow get their hands on them, and the tenants' private buyer neighbours will be even more rattled when their negative equity increases as a result.

Permabear

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DadaKopf

donegalfella wrote: »

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You have to be joking. It's very much the opposite, actually.

Permabear

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Diogenes

donegalfella wrote: »

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Possibly because the concept is an oxymoron.

But to suggest right wing opinions aren't expressed on Irish air waves, did you not hear Ulick Mc Evaddy on with Joe Higgins last week.

Permabear

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Diogenes

donegalfella wrote: »

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Awww did I sting?

Who's voice do you think is missing from Irish Airwaves at the moment? Some names perhaps? Brennan O'Connor? Eilish O Hanlon? Kevin Myers?

I think alot of the "Right wing intellectuals" are the same people who dismissed any notion of a recession or a collapse in the housing market as late as 6-12 months ago. Would you really fancy exposing yourself and the ass backward claims you were making about the economy, making any current theories or propositions looking risible.

These people are keeping their heads down at them moment, they're the turkeys that voted for christmas, best keep a low profile round about now.

Alan Greenspan, the golden calf of right wing economy theory, a man who's run down the economies of everywhere from Poland to most of Central America, yet still was lauded across the global. Alan Greenspan, the man, if you were to pick one single person to blame for the global recession, has been forced to admit his policies were "misguided".

You really think someone from Magill, or someone from IBEC, or the CIF is lifting their heads above the trenches right now?

deadhead13

DJDC wrote: »

Is there a likelihood that Ireland could vote in a Sinn Fein/Labour coalition in the next election if the situation continues to deteriorate? What effect would the ensuing policies of high taxation on the rich, high corporate taxs etc have on the countries economy?

What effect did a decade of a FF/PD coalition ultimately have on the countries economy?

Btw the idea that the Irish voters would elect a Sinn Fein/Labour coalition is laughable.

Permabear

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Diogenes

donegalfella wrote: »

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I've noticed you've fixated on that this one minor point, instead of explaining which Irish Right Wing Intellectuals are being censored on our airwaves.

And if you'll search the historical record, you'll find no group of people more critical of Greenspan's expansionary monetary policy and statist interventionism than right-wing libertarians.

Is this a stand up routine? I don't recall seeing many Right Wing Libertarians marching on anti IMF or WTO meetings.

No wait there was a group of young republicans building barricades in Genoa. no wait that was Ya Basta.

Leftwing opposition to the "free market" ideals of Greenspan has been the most vocal detailed and passionate political movement of the 90s/ early 2000s.

Consider this article, "The Mess Greenspan Leaves," published by the right-wing Ludwig von Mises Institute. It was written in December 2005 by right-wing economist Stefan Karlsson. I'll quote you this representative paragraph:



Does this not sound like a fairly accurate warning of what was to come?

Wow! You got an unpublished blogger. I'll see you that and raise you Joesph Stiglitz or Naomi Klein. Or I could go on.

Greenspan was chair of the federal reserve under the last three republican Presidents, to suggest that the right were the ones warning about this is laughable. They caused this.

Permabear

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nesf

Diogenes wrote: »

But to suggest right wing opinions aren't expressed on Irish air waves, did you not hear Ulick Mc Evaddy on with Joe Higgins last week.

Bluntly neither would be considered to be an intellectual by any stretch of the imagination.

Diogenes wrote: »

You really think someone from Magill, or someone from IBEC, or the CIF is lifting their heads above the trenches right now?

The editor of Magill Magazine was on Q&A last week ffs. Hardly something someone cowering in the trenches does. If you're going to make broad sweeping statements about things like the above at least have some idea of who has or has not be been active in public forums over the past few weeks/months.

Diogenes

donegalfella wrote: »

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No I made an off hand comment to that effect, I then asked you name some of these irish right wing intellectuals, that RTE are (to borrow a phrase) denying the oxygen of publicity. I've done this four times time. You've failed to do so, and in your consistent inability or unwillingness to name these censored towering intellectuals, is, rather funnily, effectively proving my glib aside.

So for the fifth time I ask, who are the "right wing intellectuals' denied a voice by RTE?

You'll find that most right-wing libertarians do not support the existence of the IMF or the WTO. Maybe you want to read up a bit about what libertarians actually believe before you make any more self-discrediting claims?

Firstly to be clear the post of yours I originally responded to referred to "right wing intellectuals" You clearly did not clarify it as "right wing libertarian intellectuals." Merely right wing. Secondly could you classify what your definition of Right Wing Libertarian is? Ron Paul? Ayn Rand?

You're you've started by saying "Why aren't we seeing right wing intellectuals on RTE?" and now you are saying "Why aren't we seeing a fringe movement of right wing political philosophy on RTE". You may as well say 'Why aren't the Workers Solidarity Movement getting airtime".

Let's see: Greenspan served 1 year under Reagan, 4 years under Bush Sr., 5 years under Bush Jr., and 8 years under Clinton. That changes your math somewhat, doesn't it? Yes, that's right—almost half of Greenspan's tenure as Federal Reserve chairman happened while a Democrat was in the White House. I love how you've tried to erase that fact.

I didn't, I say quite clearly that he's served under three different republican presidents. But hang on, you're the one saying you disagree with the politics and policies of the mainstream right, but now, seem to be defending them.

This is your cake donegal, do you want your cake, or eat your cake?

bigeasyeah

During times of duress many often resort to extreme ideologies.

Pride Fighter

I am glad the Irish are seeing more sense. Putting democracy in the hands of the people, not big business should be natural IMO. After all a multi-national will not be your friend and neighbour in your community. Putting people before bankers and big business seems to be the most humane political ideology IMO. I do not understand how people can cheerlead for big business when there are communities ravaged by crime and people losing their homes. Neo-Cons, Neo-Liberals got us into this mess with their waste and corruption. Social Democracy with the values of putting the common good ahead of the needs of the profiteers is the future of global politics.

Permabear

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Diogenes

bigeasyeah wrote: »

During times of duress many often resort to extreme ideologies.

Ah here hold on, they're Sinn Fein not the Taliban. Are they talking about raising corporate tax? Yes. Banning kites, music and laughter? No.

Talk like this dilutes the meaning of the word extremism.

nesf wrote:

The editor of Magill Magazine was on Q&A last week ffs. Hardly something someone cowering in the trenches does. If you're going to make broad sweeping statements about things like the above at least have some idea of who has or has not be been active in public forums over the past few weeks/months.

My apologises, I do live in the UK, I do try and keep abreast of current affairs back home, as I (was) planning on moving back there recently. I subscribe to a number of forums, and mailing lists, and regularly watch rte streaming (PS rte would it kill you not to have a loud stupid ad for the RTE guide in front of every news piece?) The Magill editor passed me by.

Would you know what day it was on, I'd actually quite like to see it.

Nodin

mumhaabu wrote: »

We need to lock down our borders and stop the migrant workers from the 12 new EU states from working here and reintroduce work permits. We need to look at the effects of immigration into Ireland at a time when our own kith and kin are leaving. All I see in various towns is loads of immigrants walking around hands in pockets all not working being supported by the Irish government at a time when our employees are beign taxed to extreme. Social Welfare needs to dismantled and slowly removed for all people but cut it for foreigners first. .

"kith and kin" eh? Well, Its always good to hear the thoughts of the Astaru movement. WWOD indeed.

mumhaabu wrote: »

We need to move to the right not the left and we will see our Celtic Tiger roar again,.

There was no such beast, really. Thats what they mean by "bubble".

mumhaabu wrote: »

. To those liberal lefties who argue for Socialism take one look at the United States a country which has seen an unprecedented economic boom from late 2002 up to 2008 and the economy of the US grew and grew every single year that President Bush was in power. His conservative policies led America on its greatest boom since WWII and weathered a war and domestic terrorism. The Democrats took the house with Nanci Pelosi (possibly america's most corrupt person) and then began this crisis.,.

Alternative history buff too?

The Americans had an even more ginormous "bubble". Nothing to do with Bush specifically, certainly nothing to do with Pelosi.

CiaranC

donegalfella, you tell us. Who ARE these right wing intellectuals?

Diogenes

donegalfella wrote: »

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Wow deflect the question much?

Let me remind you what you said

donegalfella wrote:

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You are the one claiming that right wing intellectuals are denied a voice by the state broadcaster. I'm merely asking who these repressed souls are?

Are you really trying to argue that a country that has elected a conservative right of center government consistently for over a decade, is being corrupted by left wing teachers and media? Do you have any idea how Joe Mc Carthy esque absurd that sounds?

So Joe, got the names of these 205 card carrying right wing intellectuals we are repressing?

BTW, in your ever so endearing manner you ignore a major point of my rebuttal again.

me wrote:

Firstly to be clear the post of yours I originally responded to referred to "right wing intellectuals" You clearly did not clarify it as "right wing libertarian intellectuals." Merely right wing. Secondly could you classify what your definition of Right Wing Libertarian is? Ron Paul? Ayn Rand?

You're you've started by saying "Why aren't we seeing right wing intellectuals on RTE?" and now you are saying "Why aren't we seeing a fringe movement of right wing political philosophy on RTE". You may as well say 'Why aren't the Workers Solidarity Movement getting airtime".

Are you referring to "right wing intellectuals" or "right wing libertarian intellectuals"?

Permabear

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CiaranC

donegalfella wrote: »

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Who are these right wing intellectuals being censored by the media?

Permabear

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asdasd

Probably we dont know who these right wing intellectuals are because they are censored from the media.

Of course right wing intellectuals get on the media - just not spittle flecked libertarians. Most economists are right wing, for instance. Business leaders - public intellectuals of a sort - are right wing. IBEC leaders. Right wing.

Also Tom Conney is a neo-con, an unusual philosophy for Ireland.

In any case the term right wing can mean any of these things

1) Nationalists, or anyone who opposes the libertarian argument on migration is "rightwing" even though the capitalist class is very pro-migration.
2) Conservatives - for example: Catholics even though they may oppose the nationalists on immigration ( or not), and free marketers on most everything ( porn, secularization, contraception, divorce etc.)
3) Libertarians - market driven fundies. Opposed to conservatives and nationalists ,as well as the left.
4) Neo-Cons - Israeli firsters. Generally in favour of a libertarian agenda unless we are talking about torture, statist invasions of Iraq, and pro-immigration unless immigrants are seeking the right of return to Israel. Not so popular in Ireland.

All these differences mean "right wing" is a useless term.

All of these groups get some time on RTE. Some get too much time.

Permabear

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O'Morris

donegalfella wrote:

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What about Moore McDowell? I saw him on Questions and Answers a few weeks ago and he wasn't too keen on the idea of a bailout. Isn't he a pro-market, anti-statist economist?

donegallfella wrote:

They have hosted a great deal of debate about how and where the government should intervene—and a great deal of sanctimonious warbling about the need to protect the most vulnerable in society—but the perfectly respectable position that the government should not intervene gets no airing. Why?

Probably because there aren't any. Can you name two high-profile economists or politicians in this country opposed to government intervention in the economy?

Permabear

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Diogenes

donegalfella wrote: »

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No wait sorry you said

you wrote:

I can't recall the last time I heard a right-wing intellectual interviewed on RTÉ.

I've merely asked you to name some of these silenced souls, You're the one being incredibly obtuse at this point. The closest thing you've come to a name is an obscure Swedish blogger.

So I ask again, simply, who are these right wing intellectuals who RTE are ignoring, or overlooking?

It's a really simple question.