To the public sector bashers, I refuse 2 be made feel guilty for making a good choice

achtungbarry

I am fed up with being scapegoated for the country's ills.

I am constantly hearing "You don't know how great you have it with a secure job, great pension etc.......

The answer is........... Yes I do know how lucky I am and hell yes I appreciate it.

And here's the thing, that's one of the major reasons I joined the public service three years ago.

I was told I was mad by my friends I was mad and that I could earn much more in private sector, which I could have.

But instead of thinking about what I could earn now I thought ahead. I thought ahead to the day when things wouldn't be so good and I knew that a public service job was the safest option long term.

This is why I refuse to be made feel guilty for having a relatively secure if not brilliantly paid job (26k).

I made my choice. I chose the public sector. I thought long term. And damn it, I made the right decision and I make no apologies for that !

I went through a very tough interview process, went back to learn Irish and went up against 250 other candidates and I got that secure job. Again I refuse to be made feel guilty.

As for the levy, I am more than prepared to pay my levy and do my bit and more again if needed down the line.

I favour freezing increments for as long as is needed.

I favour making public servants more sackable because yes there are people in the public service at all levels who I would sack today starting with the fat arse do nothings at the top as followed by those lower down the ranks. If you do a good job, you have nothing to worry about, if you are a lazy f###er..... Adios !

So no, I don't live in a bubble and yes I do know how lucky I am but I make no apologies for it.

Again, I made my choice.

To those whinging about how great we have it, why didn't you join the public service if you think it is great ? You had your chance when times were good.

I will make no apologies for making a good and sensible choice.

bobbbb

Why would i want to work in a place where the government could cut my wages in bad times and give me paltry pay raises in boom times just to appease me.

No thanks i'll take my chances in the private sector. More money, more mobility, more everything. Somewhere that actually pays good money and dioesnt just employ spin doctors to make out that they pay well.

population

Good honest post, but the thread title is inflammatory.

Why didnt I opt for a job in the public service??? Tried to in 2000 and despite passing all tests with flying colours and getting nothing but positive feedback about my interviews I didnt get the job.

The son of an existing staff member did

achtungbarry

population wrote: »

Good honest post, but the thread title is inflammatory.

Why didnt I opt for a job in the public service??? Tried to in 2000 and despite passing all tests with flying colours and getting nothing but positive feedback about my interviews I didnt get the job.

The son of an existing staff member did

You are right about the thread title so I toned it down after a few minutes of calm reflection.

population

Lol

Are you sure you are a public servant:D

Just kidding

achtungbarry

population wrote: »

Lol

Are you sure you are a public servant:D

Just kidding

Yes, some of actually can see the bigger picture.... but there are others among us..........

MG

OP is irrelevant. No one is scapegoating. It's a straight financial choice - can we afford to pay the public wage bill, yes or no. The answer is No.

*Honey*

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am fed up with being scapegoated for the country's ills.

I am constantly hearing "You don't know how great you have it with a secure job, great pension etc.......

The answer is........... Yes I do know how lucky I am and hell yes I appreciate it.

And here's the thing, that's one of the major reasons I joined the public service three years ago.

I was told I was mad by my friends I was mad and that I could earn much more in private sector, which I could have.

But instead of thinking about what I could earn now I thought ahead. I thought ahead to the day when things wouldn't be so good and I knew that a public service job was the safest option long term.

This is why I refuse to be made feel guilty for having a relatively secure if not brilliantly paid job (26k).

I made my choice. I chose the public sector. I thought long term. And damn it, I made the right decision and I make no apologies for that !

I went through a very tough interview process, went back to learn Irish and went up against 250 other candidates and I got that secure job. Again I refuse to be made feel guilty.

As for the levy, I am more than prepared to pay my levy and do my bit and more again if needed down the line.

I favour freezing increments for as long as is needed.

I favour making public servants more sackable because yes there are people in the public service at all levels who I would sack today starting with the fat arse do nothings at the top as followed by those lower down the ranks. If you do a good job, you have nothing to worry about, if you are a lazy f###er..... Adios !

So no, I don't live in a bubble and yes I do know how lucky I am but I make no apologies for it.

Again, I made my choice.

To those whinging about how great we have it, why didn't you join the public service if you think it is great ? You had your chance when times were good.

I will make no apologies for making a good and sensible choice.

+ 2 (told my husband about this and he agreed also).

achtungbarry

MG wrote: »

No one is scapegoating.

Are you you serious? Please tell me you are not serious ? No one ? No one at all ?

And every word is relevent as I am sick to death of being attacked over this.

hughs

There is a huge amount of waste in the public sector, no one can dispute this fact. The private sector creates the wealth and picks up the tab and pays for this waste. I dont know what sector you work in but if you are one of the many inefficient civil servants in your job and provide no benefit for the 26K you collect each year then you are fair game for bashing.

A lot of people out there including the 100,000 who were marching in Dublin today are still living in a dream. The reality is that the government are not even considering reversing the pension levy rather they are already looking at phase 2 which will involve staff cuts in public service and tax increases for all. This situation is going to get a whole lot worse.

achtungbarry

hughs wrote: »

but if you are one of the many inefficients civil servants in your job and provide no benefit for the 26K you collect each year then you are fair game for bashing.

"If" being the key word.

Read what I said about such ineffecient people before tarring me with their brush.

I have nothing but distain for the arse scratchers as they give me their reputation.

achtungbarry

hughs wrote: »

A lot of people out there including the 100,000 who were marching in Dublin today are still living in a dream.

I am simply amazed at your ability to know the minds of 100,000 people. Truly amazing.

*Honey*

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am simply amazed at your ability to know the minds of 100,000 people. Truly amazing.

And he knows all this from the comfort of his student bed too. It's an amazing ability.

Hughs, you state "The reality is that the government are not even considering reversing the pension levy rather they are already looking at phase 2 which will involve staff cuts in public service and tax increases for all"

What are you basing this on? A cite is required.

MG

achtungbarry wrote: »

Are you you serious? Please tell me you are not serious ? No one ? No one at all ?

And every word is relevent as I am sick to death of being attacked over this.

The public sector is not being scapegoated or attacked for the country's ills. The banking sector probably is when you hear of the front line staff being verbally attacked.

The public sector feel like they are being scapegoated, which is different from actually being scapegoated. Public anger towards the public sector is driven by their response to the crisis rather than their causing it.

MG

*Honey* wrote: »

And he knows all this from the comfort of his student bed too. It's an amazing ability.

Hughs, you state "The reality is that the government are not even considering reversing the pension levy rather they are already looking at phase 2 which will involve staff cuts in public service and tax increases for all"

What are you basing this on? A cite is required.

I'm guessing it's based on the reality of a 20Bn deficit and the IMF looking on

hughs

achtungbarry wrote: »

"If" being the key word.

Read what I said about such ineffecient people before tarring me with their brush.

I have nothing but distain for the arse scratchers as they give me their reputation.

OK - first of all, should have read your full post, apologise. However, can you not understand why people feel they want to bash you when every dog on the street knows that we are wasting billions in the public sector.

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am simply amazed at your ability to know the minds of 100,000 people. Truly amazing.

I'm not being smart but I don't know what they want. If they do not realise the seriousness of the deficit in the public finances, they are living in a dream world.

mikemac

MG wrote: »

The public sector is not being scapegoated or attacked for the country's ills. The banking sector probably is when you hear of the front line staff being verbally attacked.

Been there!
Hey folks, the lowly cashier with a Leaving Cert and on 24k isn't responsible for you not being able to pay your mortgage. Or your four credit cards or your car loan for a car you didn't need and dropped 10k in depreciation the first year you owned it

You'd have seen in the press:
"We own you now"
"You're lucky to have a job"

Maybe you do own a share of this bank and I'd agree I'm happy to have a job but it's attacking the wrong people. Those qoutes are mild tbh to what I've seen.
I don't post on boards slamming civil servants and take no joy in seeing brickies losing their job. Though they badly needed to drop their rates from a euro a brick

People are in a dream all right, blaming every sector but themselves.
So I tend to avoid these posts and realy, every thread is much the same as the next

hughs

*Honey* wrote: »

And he knows all this from the comfort of his student bed too. It's an amazing ability.

Hughs, you state "The reality is that the government are not even considering reversing the pension levy rather they are already looking at phase 2 which will involve staff cuts in public service and tax increases for all"

What are you basing this on? A cite is required.

I'm not a student. You are mixing me up with someone else. I work in the private sector.

It is obvious. As a country there is a limit to the amount of finance we can raise on the international money markets. We have a huge deficit and are competing with other countries for funding. The cost of our debt has already increased significantly above Germany. If we continue to spend recklessly, the money markets will simply stop lending to us and the government will have to step aside and let the IMF sort out the mess.

Yenwod

population wrote: »

Good honest post, but the thread title is inflammatory.

Why didnt I opt for a job in the public service??? Tried to in 2000 and despite passing all tests with flying colours and getting nothing but positive feedback about my interviews I didnt get the job.

The son of an existing staff member did

If it was exams for the civil service and you think that guy got a job coz he was the son of an existing staff member, that's complete rubbish!!


And couldn't agree more with the OP

colly10

I was told I was mad by my friends I was mad and that I could earn much more in private sector, which I could have.

What do you work at?

I am sick to death of being attacked over this.

Noone is being attacked for being public sector, only public sector workers who are moaning now about how tough they have it and talk about how come their being screwed when the private sector arn't and other such bs

Yenwod wrote: »

And couldn't agree more with the OP

He's saying something you want to hear, hardly surprising you agree

Yenwod

colly10 wrote: »

He's saying something you want to hear, hardly surprising you agree

No I agree with him as I too am a civil servant who took a pay cut to get a secure job and now get critisized that I have one.

I have no problems with the pay freeze and definitely think it should be easier to sack people in the public service coz there are a lot of lazy f*ckers in it.

And although I think the levy should be amended, I am willing to take that hit too.

jdivision

achtungbarry wrote: »

And here's the thing, that's one of the major reasons I joined the public service three years ago.

I was told I was mad by my friends I was mad and that I could earn much more in private sector, which I could have.

How do you know that? The public sector is already paid better than the private sector, as confirmed by the ESRI

colly10

Yenwod wrote: »

No I agree with him as I too am a civil servant who took a pay cut to get a secure job and now get critisized that I have one.

Who is criticising you? If your not giving out about how unfair the levy is then what could someone be criticising you about?

D.S.

OP - no one is scapegoating the public service. It is overpaid, inefficient, and huge waste of taxpayers resources. A huge amount of services offered could be delivered online with a much better and cheaper service.

Fair play if you had any "foresight" a few years ago. Your comment about the pay aspect though is complete nonsense. It's well reported from a number of sources that public sector pay is on average 35% more than equivalent private sector pay.

At the end of the day, the public sector is a colossal waste of money with v little return. It's definitely time for an overhaul and it's long overdue.

*Honey*

hughs wrote: »

I'm not a student. You are mixing me up with someone else. I work in the private sector.

Quite correct, apologies... I did get you mixed up with someone else.

Yenwod

colly10 wrote: »

Who is criticising you? If your not giving out about how unfair the levy is then what could someone be criticising you about?

like I said in my previous post, I think the levy should be amended. I do find it unfair...but I'm not saying it should be completely abolished.

I've had many criticisms of "at least you have a job..." etc. I have one coz it was my choice to go into the public service so like the OP said, don't try to make me feel guilty about it. Just coz I have a job, doesnt mean I have to roll over and take everything so easily.

D.S.

Yenwod wrote: »

Just coz I have a job, doesnt mean I have to roll over and take everything so easily.

This is a v fair point. You obviously don't like it and don't have to take it so easily..

Nevertheless, this needs to happen for a multitude of reasons.., and I hope for one that regardless of how the public sector reacts, the Government push ahead with these tough reforms. More reform is need though, and everyone is going to have to take a hit..

colly10

Yenwod wrote: »

like I said in my previous post, I think the levy should be amended. I do find it unfair...but I'm not saying it should be completely abolished.

I've had many criticisms of "at least you have a job..." etc. I have one coz it was my choice to go into the public service so like the OP said, don't try to make me feel guilty about it. Just coz I have a job, doesnt mean I have to roll over and take everything so easily.

It doesn't, but it's the private sector workers that pay your wages, now if their all being let go then theres no wages to pay you. The government are your employer and see that they can no longer afford to keep paying, but rather than getting rid of everyone their making cuts like levies.
So whether or not you feel that you don't have to roll over and take it, the money is not there, I can't understand why people don't get this.

Things are going to get much worse, levies is only the start, theres no choice here. People striking etc only makes the current situation worse

MG

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am fed up with being scapegoated for the country's ills.

I am constantly hearing "You don't know how great you have it with a secure job, great pension etc.......

The answer is........... Yes I do know how lucky I am and hell yes I appreciate it.

And here's the thing, that's one of the major reasons I joined the public service three years ago.

I was told I was mad by my friends I was mad and that I could earn much more in private sector, which I could have.

But instead of thinking about what I could earn now I thought ahead. I thought ahead to the day when things wouldn't be so good and I knew that a public service job was the safest option long term.

This is why I refuse to be made feel guilty for having a relatively secure if not brilliantly paid job (26k).

I made my choice. I chose the public sector. I thought long term. And damn it, I made the right decision and I make no apologies for that !

I went through a very tough interview process, went back to learn Irish and went up against 250 other candidates and I got that secure job. Again I refuse to be made feel guilty.

As for the levy, I am more than prepared to pay my levy and do my bit and more again if needed down the line.

I favour freezing increments for as long as is needed.

I favour making public servants more sackable because yes there are people in the public service at all levels who I would sack today starting with the fat arse do nothings at the top as followed by those lower down the ranks. If you do a good job, you have nothing to worry about, if you are a lazy f###er..... Adios !

So no, I don't live in a bubble and yes I do know how lucky I am but I make no apologies for it.

Again, I made my choice.

To those whinging about how great we have it, why didn't you join the public service if you think it is great ? You had your chance when times were good.

I will make no apologies for making a good and sensible choice.

This is all well and good but what were the 100,000 protesting about? Maybe it's them you should be blaming for any bad press the public sector gets

colly10

MG wrote: »

This is all well and good but what were the 100,000 protesting about? Maybe it's them you should be blaming for any bad press the public sector gets

Exactly, noone has an issue with the OP as the OP is not moaning about how bad he has it, it's only the public sector who moan about how bad they have it that wreck my head

givyjoe81

*Honey* wrote: »

+ 2 (told my husband about this and he agreed also).

Oh well if your husband says so lets all stop arguing... People, or more specifically public servants, please do pay attention to the IMF rumours and because in the forseeable future they could be deciding yours.. If you contintue to keep kicking and screaming about the levy which will see a relatively small loss, yes SMALL (in comparison to the many others losing their jobs), then you WILL suffer further in the long run. We are hurtling towards the situation Iceland finds itself and as i and others have mentioned before, there have been murmorings about IMF intervention.

hughs

givyjoe81 wrote: »

If you contintue to keep kicking and screaming about the levy which will see a relatively small loss, yes SMALL (in comparison to the many others losing their jobs), then you WILL suffer further in the long run. We are hurtling towards the situation Iceland finds itself and as i and others have mentioned before, there have been murmorings about IMF intervention.

Agree. The whole country needs to face up to the fact that we are all facing a fall in real incomes.

johnnyskeleton

MG wrote: »

OP is irrelevant. No one is scapegoating. It's a straight financial choice - can we afford to pay the public wage bill, yes or no. The answer is No.

achtungbarry wrote: »

Are you you serious? Please tell me you are not serious ? No one ? No one at all ?

And every word is relevent as I am sick to death of being attacked over this.

MG's point is one which seems to be getting lost in all this (some would argue that the government are encouraging the public/private feud in a divide and conquer strategy). It is unfortunate that the lower paid public servants are being hit, but it's the reality of a recession. And it's not a question of the public sector being scapegoated, the reality is that there is a widening gap between the government's income and expenditure. Pay cuts in the private sector will not close this gap (in fact they make it worse as less pay = less PAYE collected), so they have to make cuts in spending. There is no other way to balance the books, and fundamentally the government do have to balance the books.

mikemac wrote: »

Maybe you do own a share of this bank and I'd agree I'm happy to have a job but it's attacking the wrong people. Those qoutes are mild tbh to what I've seen.
...
People are in a dream all right, blaming every sector but themselves.
So I tend to avoid these posts and realy, every thread is much the same as the next

The angry mob doesn't care if they target the correct people or not, they just want to target someone easy. Sorry to hear that you're getting abuse due to the problems in the banks. I think if there was any reality to the Gardai investigating these matters and the DPP bringing prosecutions I don't think people would be lashing out as they do. But unfortunately, I don't think prosecutions are very likely.

gerry28

It would be easier to accept pay cuts and levies if the price of goods in Ireland came down to a more realistic level.

Why are we paying €2.40 for a loaf of bread when 6 years ago it was less than a euro, the crazy prices we had to pay for very average houses, probably the highest cost of medicine in europe, cars 50% more expensive than in the UK, clothes, electricity, chippies, restaurants..... everything over priced?

Why has the public not started to question this? why are we all arguing about the public service wages instead????

Also, Its management grades in the public service that are grossly over paid not your average worker on €25000, or €35000.

diverdriver

You know what I'm sick of? I'm sick of people, often government employees complaining about being scapegoated and how unfair it is that that they have to pay a levy even though it wasn't their fault.

Why don't you go and find a recently redundant parent with an ordinary mortgage and explain to them how unfair life has been to you? I'm sure they'll give you a bit hug.

To those who have accepted they must make some form of sacrifice, well done for being realistic and choosing to live in the real world.

No one is asking you to feel guilty, but perhaps we could with less smug comments about how forward thinking you were in choosing a so called low paid job in return for job security. In fact most of these so called low paid governments jobs are right bang in the middle of average wages for most semi or unskilled workers.

There is an incredible ignorance of just how poorly paid many seemingly good jobs, particularly in multinationals, are. For example many operator type jobs, sometimes with a minor supervisory role, only hit €26k with shift allowance.

irish_bob

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

MG's point is one which seems to be getting lost in all this (some would argue that the government are encouraging the public/private feud in a divide and conquer strategy). It is unfortunate that the lower paid public servants are being hit, but it's the reality of a recession. And it's not a question of the public sector being scapegoated, the reality is that there is a widening gap between the government's income and expenditure. Pay cuts in the private sector will not close this gap (in fact they make it worse as less pay = less PAYE collected), so they have to make cuts in spending. There is no other way to balance the books, and fundamentally the government do have to balance the books.



The angry mob doesn't care if they target the correct people or not, they just want to target someone easy. Sorry to hear that you're getting abuse due to the problems in the banks. I think if there was any reality to the Gardai investigating these matters and the DPP bringing prosecutions I don't think people would be lashing out as they do. But unfortunately, I don't think prosecutions are very likely.

ENOUGH

stop parroting this line david begg or mr o connor fed you about how the goverment is encouraging division between public and private sector , im not a glove puppett , the goverment or tony o reilly do not have thier hand up my arse , its extremly patronising top suggest that the reason private sector workers have little sympathy for those in the public sector is down to being misled by others , we in the private sector who deal with the public sector and especially the civil service witness the inneficency and basic lack of cutomer service that charechterises the state sector all the time

this divide and conquer blather is just another banner which the unions are spouting along with WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS and PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOM

its obvious that in reality its the public sector workers who are the props in a vintriliquist act , not the private sector wokers

johnnyskeleton

gerry28 wrote: »

It would be easier to accept pay cuts and levies if the price of goods in Ireland came down to a more realistic level.

Why are we paying €2.40 for a loaf of bread when 6 years ago it was less than a euro, the crazy prices we had to pay for very average houses, probably the highest cost of medicine in europe, cars 50% more expensive than in the UK, clothes, electricity, chippies, restaurants..... everything over priced?

Why has the public not started to question this? why are we all arguing about the public service wages instead????

Also, Its management grades in the public service that are grossly over paid not your average worker on €25000, or €35000.

Prices will drop after the wage cuts rather than before. The drops we are currently seeing are as a result of the cuts and job losses suffered to date. Bread is an unusual one in that when people get poorer they will often spend more money on basic goods such as bread. But prices will only drop when consumers refuse to pay the high prices. By the way, you can buy a loaf of bread in Aldi/Lidl for about €1, and if more people shopped around there would be drops in the other supermarkets too.

Yenwod

colly10 wrote: »

It doesn't, but it's the private sector workers that pay your wages, now if their all being let go then theres no wages to pay you. The government are your employer and see that they can no longer afford to keep paying, but rather than getting rid of everyone their making cuts like levies.
So whether or not you feel that you don't have to roll over and take it, the money is not there, I can't understand why people don't get this.

Things are going to get much worse, levies is only the start, theres no choice here. People striking etc only makes the current situation worse

Oh absolutely I think everyone has to play a part whether it's levies/cuts etc and personally (I can's speak for the rest of the public sector), I am willing to take the levy but I think it should be done more fairly, ie. raise the cap of 9% so the ministers can lead by example and feel their "part of the pain" thus making more money for the economy.

And I think maybe a slightly fairer way to do the levies for the lower waged portion of the civil service is to take into account that most CO's at this stage already pay into their pension and so include that in the levy instead of putting the levy on top of that.

Dannyboy83

yawn......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_conquer

diverdriver

The divide and conquer thing is a myth, propagated by the unions to deflect from the actual reality that they are as much to blame for this shambles as the government. They walked out of the talks because they knew there had to be tough cuts and hadn't got the guts to tell the truth to their members.

To assume for one minute that this bunch of cowboys in the Dail, have enough deviousness to try and cling to power by coming up with a strategy to split the electorate is farcical. They are clueless and out of their depth in everything. Everybody private or public hates them now. If anything they finally had to summon up the backbone to cut the public service after years of pandering and mollycoddling them. Far too late. But government workers are deluding themselves if they thing this the end of the cuts. The time may yet come when salaries won't be paid at all because there is no money.

Far fetched? We'll see.

*Honey*

diverdriver wrote: »

The divide and conquer thing is a myth, propagated by the unions to deflect from the actual reality that they are as much to blame for this shambles as the government. They walked out of the talks because they knew there had to be tough cuts and hadn't got the guts to tell the truth to their members.

Actually it's untrue that they walked out for this reason. They walked out because it became very obvious that the Government has the pension levy as a plan all along and brought it out at the last second (remember Cowen set the deadline for talks to end) and insisted on it. When the Union said they need to discuss this some more, it was no, deadline is looming etc etc etc. They walked out because it was patently obvious that the Government wasn't really interested in any partnership dicussions, they were just playing that card to placate the public.

I know this from someone who attended the meetings.

diverdriver

Ah c'mon, honey!!??, the pension levy was not introduced at the last minute. It was heavily flagged right from the off. Everyone who walked in there knew it was the central part of the deal. Every news bulletin leading up to it mentioned the levy.

The unions walked, because they knew that whatever deal they managed to obtain their members wouldn't tolerate it and they would be in the firing line alongside the FF. So they used the usual union tactic of walking out threatening strikes so they can go back later and get a deal. That is the gameplan. Whatever deal they get they can now go back, shake their heads sorrrowfully and say it's the best deal in the circumstances. That's why the government is unnaturally calm in the face of big protest marches etc. Everyone knows and everyone is playing the game.

I was around unions for years, this is normal behaviour in every industrial relations issue. Only this time the stakes are much higher and there is a risk it could all blow up in everyone's face.

nice_guy80

why are the government afraid to just raise taxes?

cut some of the loopholes for tax avoidance

it'd be the easiest way to generate more money

Yenwod

nice_guy80 wrote: »

cut some of the loopholes for tax avoidance

that should've been done years ago

Scofflaw

diverdriver wrote: »

The divide and conquer thing is a myth, propagated by the unions to deflect from the actual reality that they are as much to blame for this shambles as the government. They walked out of the talks because they knew there had to be tough cuts and hadn't got the guts to tell the truth to their members.

To assume for one minute that this bunch of cowboys in the Dail, have enough deviousness to try and cling to power by coming up with a strategy to split the electorate is farcical. They are clueless and out of their depth in everything. Everybody private or public hates them now. If anything they finally had to summon up the backbone to cut the public service after years of pandering and mollycoddling them. Far too late. But government workers are deluding themselves if they thing this the end of the cuts. The time may yet come when salaries won't be paid at all because there is no money

I have to agree. There was, in any case, insufficient lead time for the government to have created such a division. I'm afraid it's a public sector union media strategy - there's no evidence of the government trying to create such a division apart from the claims of union officials.

Personally, I wasn't irritated until I met up with a couple of friends from the public sector. Dearly though I like them, and although they're smart people, their complaints were totally ignorant of the private sector experience. I could easily have sympathised if they had apparently had any idea how lucky they were - but instead they seemed to feel that their pain over a roughly 5% pay cut was entirely commensurate with that felt by mutual friends at a multinational (where the man, who is losing his job, will probably also have to leave the country to find work, leaving behind his ex-partner and their daughter). My irritation was vastly increased by some fool on the radio saying "there was no Celtic Toiger for the pooblic sector woirkers (sic)" - to which a couple of responses seem in order: (1) benchmarking; (2) no risk, no reward.

We are all in this storm together, sure, but we're not all in the same boat, and there's no point pretending we are. For the people in the more comfortable boat to pretend we are simply grates.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nice_guy80

Scofflaw wrote: »

I have to agree. There was, in any case, insufficient lead time for the government to have created such a division. I'm afraid it's a public sector union media strategy - there's no evidence of the government trying to create such a division apart from the claims of union officials.

Personally, I wasn't irritated until I met up with a couple of friends from the public sector. Dearly though I like them, and although they're smart people, their complaints were totally ignorant of the private sector experience. I could easily have sympathised if they had apparently had any idea how lucky they were - but instead they seemed to feel that their pain over a roughly 5% pay cut was entirely commensurate with that felt by mutual friends at a multinational (where the man, who is losing his job, will probably also have to leave the country to find work, leaving behind his ex-partner and their daughter). My irritation was vastly increased by some fool on the radio saying "there was no Celtic Toiger for the pooblic sector woirkers (sic)" - to which a couple of responses seem in order: (1) benchmarking; (2) no risk, no reward.

We are all in this storm together, sure, but we're not all in the same boat, and there's no point pretending we are. For the people in the more comfortable boat to pretend we are simply grates.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hate to say it but the government have been trying to scapepgoat public sector workers as a burden on the state since they cut the substitute cover for teachers. Last september more or less

Hillel

Scofflaw wrote: »

We are all in this storm together, sure, but we're not all in the same boat, and there's no point pretending we are. For the people in the more comfortable boat to pretend we are simply grates.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I agree with you, 100%.
Having said that, people on the lower payscales, public or private sector, are all having it tough. It was a pity that the pension levy was introduced in such a ham-fisted manner that it targeted those public servants who can least afford it. Most fair-minded people would agree that that area needs addressing.

Scofflaw

nice_guy80 wrote: »

hate to say it but the government have been trying to scapepgoat public sector workers as a burden on the state since they cut the substitute cover for teachers. Last september more or less

Hmm. I hate to break it to you, but while we can argue about the word 'burden', we can't avoid the fact that the public sector pay bill is currently too big for the government's revenues. You also can't avoid the fact that those revenues come from taxes paid mostly by the private sector, and that it is on the cards that our taxes will be increased to meet the costs of the public sector pay bill.

Much of the private sector quite genuinely feels the public sector is in a much more comfortable position than we are without any government propaganda - you seem better off than us in many ways that all of a sudden count for more than raw pay - defined benefit pensions, job security, conditions - while the difference in pay is not so large that anyone on this thread has been able to definitively demonstrate it. I'm sure the government is happy to capitalise on this, but they would not be able to create the depth of anger in the private sector if the feeling weren't there already that the pain being experienced by the public sector is both quantitatively and qualitatively different from that experienced by the private sector.

Now we are hearing calls for strikes by the public sector on foot of what the private sector regards as a relatively minor pay cut. Public sector strikes work if they make people angry, and if that anger is aimed at the government.

Since most of us in the private sector are in a state of uncertainty over current prospects, and many of our businesses or jobs will become more difficult or impossible if the public sector goes on strike, while our taxes will still increase to try and meet your wage bill (which you will still be paid while on strike), perhaps you can see that the most likely result of strikes will be to increase the anger the private sector feels for the public sector - not the government.

Finally, what drastically aggravates this situation is the complete certainty with which public sector representatives appear to feel that the public sector is being victimised, which serves to dramatise the extent to which your concerns are utterly different from ours - at a time when you need our sympathy in order for the government to be the villains. We already know the government is out of touch - it's being demonstrated that the public sector is too. You're within a whisker of being lumped in with the politicians, and the stirring rhetoric of being hard done by is not helping.

Very simply - our taxes pay your wages, yet not only do you seem better off than us, but you are threatening to withdraw your services from us while we are still forced to pay your wages out of our probably increased taxes - over a cut much smaller than that facing many in the private sector, and which is undoubtedly the smallest cut possible in the current situation. Strikes, therefore, will most likely give the government a mandate to make real cuts in the public sector.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

*Honey*

Scofflaw, two points:

1. Public sector workers also pay taxes, PRSI, VAT etc - we all pay towards taxes not just the private sector

2. If we go on strike we don't get paid (I know my HR Manager would be rubbing his hands in glee whilst working out the deduction for any strike day)

Scofflaw

*Honey* wrote: »

Scofflaw, two points:

1. Public sector workers also pay taxes, PRSI, VAT etc - we all pay towards taxes not just the private sector

That's recycling, though - you're being taxed on our taxes, if you like.

*Honey* wrote: »

2. If we go on strike we don't get paid (I know my HR Manager would be rubbing his hands in glee whilst working out the deduction for any strike day)

Some will receive strike pay, some will not - but you will still have your jobs afterwards, with us footing that bill whether we approve of your strike or not. You won't go out of business as a result.. Not only that, but the effects on the private sector of a public sector strike of, say, one day, can easily be a good deal more than one day's pay per person.

cordially,
Scofflaw