History of our old T (Trunk) and L (Link) roads

Amtmann

Firstly, can anyone shed some light on the old T-road (trunk road) system, such as how long it had been in operation, and when and why it was abandoned?

What were the T-road routes? Can anyone remember actually using them before the N-road changeover?

Secondly, regarding the N-road system, what improvement works were carried out on these roads in the 20 years or so after they became N roads? I mean, I presume the N1, N6, N7, N8 and N8 existed as smaller regional roads for hundreds and hundreds of years before they became major national routes, but when were they widened? The old N8, for example, was obviously subject to quite a few works south of Urlingford in past years: it was noticibly sunk into the ground by a good ten feet or more, leaving embankments on either side. I am told that no real widening works occurred during the 90s, and that the old N8 (now R639) has been the way it is since at least the 70s. Is this right?

Lastly, has anyone read this book: Ireland's Principal Roads AD 1899 - 1979 by Peter O'Keefe (September, 2004)
It's listed on the NRA's site as one of their 'general publications', but I can't find it on amazon.

Stark

You've probably seen it (or even wrote it!) already, but there's a short mention of them on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_Ireland#Old_system

mike65

T=Trunk Many of these were downgraded to county roads while the L roads are nearly all county roads I think ,the link road classification was still in use in the mid 80s

Anyone with copies of the 1963era OS maps can thrill to the old definitions and the red/yellow marking for Link roads.

Amtmann

Stark wrote: »

You've probably seen it (or even wrote it!) already, but there's a short mention of them on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_Ireland#Old_system

I did read that, but didn't write it. It prompts more questions than answers. I'd love to expand that section some time, or maybe even give it its own article, but I need to gather the information first. I just sent an email to the NRA requesting information on that book.

Zoney

I was under the impression that a lot of the work of adding hard shoulders to the old N roads took place in the 1980s. I think I remember such work on some part of the N7 in the early 90s too though. The existing N7 (soon to be R445) has now been entirely resurfaced/relaid from Limerick to Nenagh. Just as well, as it is likely to be one of those quite busy R roads. I think the lower speed limit, however much it will outrage locals and serious motorists, will be quite warranted on this stretch - the random junctions, poor sightlines and curves just combine to make a quite dangerous stretch of road - all the more so when people drive like maniacs just because it has a decent surface. Nevertheless, all R roads should have such a good surface even if they remain 80 km/h. There are relatively few decent sections of R road or old N road that would be appropriate for 100 km/h (although I certainly agree that councils should get their act together and get such stretches reclassified - e.g. dual carriageway sections for one thing!)

murphaph

Many of the N roads simply replaced T roads but the N8 was a radical departure from the old T road from Dublin to Cork. T and N existed side-by-side for a while but as signage was so dreadful nobody noticed I'm sure!

Amtmann

Does anyone know why the change took place (especially with the N8)?

I remember Lennoxschips saying that major improvement works took place along the major routes in the 90s. But most people I've asked (that might remember; I don't) say no, works occurred in the 70s and 80s.

corktina

I do know that historically the Cork to Dublin Raod was via Cahir/Clonmel?Kilkenny/Carlow. I have always assumed that the current N8 (which was partly the route to the Midlands) was improved possibly at the time of the famine and was a turnpike. This route would originally have been through Cashel Holycross and Thurles and up to Roscrea I think

Sponge Bob

The T road network was the N road network till sometime around 1967-1970 although I remember an atlas from c. 1971 or 1972 with T roads not N roads.

Most of the main roads were the same before and after but the Galway Sligo Road changed from via Ballyhaunis to via Claremorris while the Galway - Ballinasloe road was through Athenry and New INN ( like the M6 will be ) and was changed to via Loughrea instead .

I do not remember any T roads with hard shoulders , they were an N road thing, sometimes a retrofit but mostly not .

For maps of T Roads the old shell / aa drivers maps pre 1970 are great !

http://www.ianbyrne.free-online.co.uk/shellgb.htm

Lennoxschips

Furet wrote: »

Does anyone know why the change took place (especially with the N8)?

I remember Lennoxschips saying that major improvement works took place along the major routes in the 90s. But most people I've asked (that might remember; I don't) say no, works occurred in the 70s and 80s.

Most of the N8 between Cork and Cashel was upgraded heavily in the 1990s with Dick Spring's Eurobillions.

The original and now defunct Cashel bypass, 2+1 stretches throughout much of North Cork, the Glanmire bypass, etc.

road_high

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Most of the N8 between Cork and Cashel was upgraded heavily in the 1990s with Dick Spring's Eurobillions.

The original and now defunct Cashel bypass, 2+1 stretches throughout much of North Cork, the Glanmire bypass, etc.

You mean Cahir bypass presumably. It was a roundabout ridden inadequate thing that i'm sure anybody regularly using the N8 is glad to see the back of now.

Amtmann

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Most of the N8 between Cork and Cashel was upgraded heavily in the 1990s with Dick Spring's Eurobillions.

The original and now defunct Cashel bypass, 2+1 stretches throughout much of North Cork, etc.

Thanks for that. Any specifics (years, lengths done, etc.)? The only 2+1 road I know in north Cork is the N20 road outside Mallow.

I don't know of any original Cashel bypass; there isn't any as far as I know.
Are you thinking of Cahir? (if you are, that's not defunct; it's the N24 now, and still bypasses Cahir, albeit rather circuitously.

mike65

Deliberate error I suspect

L1011

Furet wrote: »

Thanks for that. Any specifics (years, lengths done, etc.)? The only 2+1 road I know in north Cork is the N20 road outside Mallow.

I don't know of any original Cashel bypass; there isn't any as far as I know.
Are you thinking of Cahir? (if you are, that's not defunct; it's the N24 now, and still bypasses Cahir, albeit rather circuitously.

I presume by 2+1 he's referring to the climbing lanes on the N8 through north cork?


I have an Esso road map of Ireland at home which predates the reclassification; I'm nearly 200 miles away from home right now though.... it should have all the T routes on it.

I seem to remember the N3 was only 'invented' with N roads, as in it wasn't the T3 - that was the N4.

And as goes that book, googling for it finds reference saying the NRA published it in 2001; and no entries on any secondhand booksellers - you'd likely have to try the National Library for it at this stage!

Lennoxschips

Yeah, I was referring to the Cahir bypass but wrote Cashel instead.

dubhthach

Sponge Bob wrote: »

while the Galway - Ballinasloe road was through Athenry and New INN ( like the M6 will be ) and was changed to via Loughrea instead .

According to my Auld Lad the reason it was moved to go through Loughrea was because the local goverment TD at the time in East Galway was from down around Loughrea and petitioned to have the route moved (passing trade stopping in Loughrea instead of Athenry etc.).

Sponge Bob

I assumed Bobby Molloy was reponsible for the redesignation from T to N but it was his predecessor who announced National Roads ( and National PRIMARY Roads) on the 23rd of July 1969 .

Molloy became minister less than a year later in 1970 .

The ' roads redesignation' announcement was not made in the Dáil in July nor was it a statutory instrument .

Boland refers back to it just below and forward to it elsewhere in statements in the Dáil in June/July 1969 .

http://snipurl.com/9bae4

However the yellow line and double yellow line came in that year too

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1969/en/si/0217.html

Amtmann

dubhthach wrote: »

According to my Auld Lad the reason it was moved to go through Loughrea was because the local goverment TD at the time in East Galway was from down around Loughrea and petitioned to have the route moved (passing trade stopping in Loughrea instead of Athenry etc.).

That doesn't surprise me.

Looking at the map, I find it odd that the N6 didn't always go through Athenry - the route seems much more direct.

MLM

The N8 Glanmire bypass was opened in April 1992 following a six year construction period. The section between Watergrasshill and Rathcormack was upgraded in 1988 and 1989. This involved resurfacing, and some widening to include climbing lanes. A hard shoulder existed prior to this upgrade. A newspaper article on the 1988 upgrade stated that it was the first time that this section had been upgraded in 20 years which suggests that the hard shoulder on this section of road would've been constructed in the late sixties.

Most of the route between Rathcormack and Cahir would have been upgraded between 1989 and 1992, although parts of the section near the Kilcoran lodge Hotel was widened in the mid eighties. Much of the Rathcormack to Cahir section would've had existing hard shoulders, which could possibly also date from the late sixties.

I think the Cahir bypass opened in 1988.

Amtmann

MLM wrote: »

The N8 Glanmire bypass was opened in April 1992 following a six year construction period. The section between Watergrasshill and Rathcormack was upgraded in 1988 and 1989. This involved resurfacing, and some widening to include climbing lanes. A hard shoulder existed prior to this upgrade. A newspaper article on the 1988 upgrade stated that it was the first time that this section had been upgraded in 20 years which suggests that the hard shoulder on this section of road would've been constructed in the late sixties.

Most of the route between Rathcormack and Cahir would have been upgraded between 1989 and 1992, although parts of the section near the Kilcoran lodge Hotel was widened in the mid eighties. Much of the Rathcormack to Cahir section would've had existing hard shoulders, which could possibly also date from the late sixties.

I think the Cahir bypass opened in 1988.

Six years! Jeeezus... Still, it must've been a difficult build.

Just wondering, are you getting that information from memory or from a published source? I'm very keen to get as much info on this as possible. So, very little was spent on the N8 at least in the past 16 years. Interesting.

MLM

Furet wrote: »

Six years! Jeeezus... Still, it must've been a difficult build.

Just wondering, are you getting that information from memory or from a published source? I'm very keen to get as much info on this as possible. So, very little was spent on the N8 at least in the past 16 years. Interesting.

The information is from memory. The only work I remember post 1992 and pre 2001 is the resurfacing between Glanmire and Watergrasshill. This took place shortly after the completion of the bypass. What was remarkable about it was the method they used to resurface the road.

The new surface was rolled out like a carpet from an experimental vehicle borrowed from France. As far as I remember the entire section took only a day or two to complete.

The construction of the Glanmire bypass was hilarious by today's standards. There were times when construction seemed to grind to a halt for months. Every now and then they used to wheel out a JCB or a dumper to do a bit of work. The major structures were built one by one.
I have a memory of one excavator and one volvo earthmover working on one of the major cuttings for weeks, until someone found a spare bit of cash to get a second excavator to speed things up a little. A grade separated interchange was constructed, but never opened, on the northern end of the bypass. The arrangement put in place instead, caused many an unnecessary accident.

The Cork Examiner archives would have many articles on N8 road construction during the eighties and nineties. The Glanmire bypass alone must have had about 20 or 30 articles published during its construction. Would be a nightmare to search through them though.

Amtmann

MLM wrote: »

A grade separated interchange was constructed, but never opened, on the northern end of the bypass. The arrangement put in place instead, caused many an unnecessary accident.

Fascinating - I must have a look for that. Thanks very much for your posts, they've been very interesting.

Sponge Bob

Back then the contractor could claim for 'cost overruns' and 'redesigns' and then 'cost overruns owing to redesigns' .

Once they had the contract they were able to completely take the piss.

Being in Cork they certainly milked it

Lennoxschips

There was definitely work carried out on the N8 after 1992, I can remember driving through major roadworks between Mitchelstown and Cahir in 1995.

I can also remember driving through Cahir (or, rather, being driven) in the early 90s.

Amtmann

Lennoxschips wrote: »

There was definitely work carried out on the N8 after 1992, I can remember driving through major roadworks between Mitchelstown and Cahir in 1995.

I can also remember driving through Cahir (or, rather, being driven) in the early 90s.

My own memory is very vague about that too, but I thought the Cahir bypass was 1990 or 1991. I must compile a list of questions for various loal authorities and use them to update that wiki article.

EDIT: The bronze statue of a fish on the Suir bridge...I think that was erected when the Cahir bypass was built. There's probably an inscription on it.

icdg

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I assumed Bobby Molloy was reponsible for the redesignation from T to N but it was his predecessor who announced National Roads ( and National PRIMARY Roads) on the 23rd of July 1969 .

Molloy became minister less than a year later in 1970 .

The ' roads redesignation' announcement was not made in the Dáil in July nor was it a statutory instrument .

Boland refers back to it just below and forward to it elsewhere in statements in the Dáil in June/July 1969 .

http://snipurl.com/9bae4

However the yellow line and double yellow line came in that year too

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1969/en/si/0217.html

There was indeed a Statutory Instrument designating the original routes of the twenty-five national primary routes and the thirty-two national secondary roads, but it didn't come till nearly a decade after that. Apparently it took some time to finalise that list...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/si/0164.html

The original T and L road system was never legislated for so the old roads had never been formally designated in the first place. The M/N-road system (note, no R- or L- roads at this point, they came in later) was legislated for in the Local Government (Roads and Motorways) Act 1974 and the roads were declared by SI in 1977. Not long after that, Sylvie Barrett (the Minister for the Environment at the time) launched the new green road signs for national roads (essentially a direct copy of the UK's Warboys Committee signage) which replaced the old white cast-iron signage. Blue motorway signs first appear when the M7 opened in 1983.

R-roads didn't appear at this stage and weren't legislated for until the Roads Act 1993. They did appear from the early 1980s on signs (often with patches on N road signs with just "R " on it - evidently they took some time to decide what the R-roads were too). Modern signage didn't make its way onto non-national roads until the late 1980s. The current signage system is an update of the 1977 system (with the major change being a different shade of green used and italic text for Irish placenames) and was introduced on 1/1/89 (with updates in 1996 and, well, the ongoing since 2005 revision).

Finally, L-roads were also legislated for in the Roads Act 1993 but have only just begun appearing on road signs (except for mistakes) in the last two years or so.

Typewriter

Hear you go lads...

This route planning map is from an old road atlas of Ireland that has the 'new' N roads and the old T&L roads. There is no date of print in the atlas so its anybody's guess when it was published. (The books cover looks mid-80's)

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=69432&d=1230829831

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=69434&d=1230829999

KevR

dubhthach wrote: »

According to my Auld Lad the reason it was moved to go through Loughrea was because the local goverment TD at the time in East Galway was from down around Loughrea and petitioned to have the route moved (passing trade stopping in Loughrea instead of Athenry etc.).

Never knew this. Not surprising in the slightest though.


Very interesting thread I must say. All before my time though so I can't make any worthwhile contribution I'm afraid.

Amtmann

So the old Dublin to Cork route incorporated the old N8, the N24, N76 and N78, before it joined with the present N9 south of Kilcullen and then joined the present N7.

It passed through lots of notable towns.

There's definitely a PhD in Irish road history/historical geography for someone out there...

It would be fascinating to see for how long prior to the twentieth century those old trunk roads were travelled. I suspect many originated after the Norman conquest, and their importance gradually increased during the plantations and Wars of the Three Kingdoms in the seventeenth century. They probably came into their own in the late 1600s/early 1700s. Certainly I'd say they are newer than many of the L roads - a lot of which, I suspect, are well over a thousand years old. L roads in particular often serve as a boundary between two townlands, and townlands are the oldest territorial division in Ireland.

As far as I know though, no Tudor cartographer ever included roads in their sixteenth-century maps, indicating that they weren't hugely important, or that they were very dangerous indeed.

BrianD3

Interesting to see the N3 and N2 named but marked with skinny yellow lines. Presumably the roads had been renamed but were awaiting upgrade.

I see that the main road from Cavan to Dublin used to be the road through Finea and Castepollard. This is now a regional road and is very twisty and dangerous in places.

icdg

The lack of a Naas Bypass would seem to put that map somewhere between 1977 and 1983. Although the lack of national secondary routes may suggest this may pre-date the finalisation of the system in 1977...

Also interesting to note is this is the only map I have ever seen with Northern Ireland T-road numbers on them - these are for internal NI government use only and have AFAIK never appeared on road signs in NI - here's a list...

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/typesandnumbers.html

Back to the south and the biggest changes between the new and and only networks were the N3, N8, and N9 all of which were major departures from the old network. The primary route between Dublin and Cavan was obviously intended to have been via Mullingar which seems like the long way around.

murphaph

icdg wrote: »

Also interesting to note is this is the only map I have ever seen with Northern Ireland T-road numbers on them - these are for internal NI government use only and have AFAIK never appeared on road signs in NI - here's a list...

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/typesandnumbers.html

Aye, T numbers still exist in Britain too. They simply indicate when a section of road is a trunk route. A road holding primary A road (or even motorway) status in the UK does not imply that it's also a trunk route-the Highways Agency has national responsibility for all trunk routes and parliament decides what roads or sections thereof are important enough nationally to be deemed trunk. As mentioned, the public is generally unaware if they are on a trunk route or not as they don't sign it.

RadioCity

The used to be a confirmatory sign on the A4 between Enniskillen and the border, heading for Sligo that had "A4 (T17)" on it. That was the only time I really noticed a "T" designation in the past 20 years or so.

I remember thinking it was quite unusual especially as in Derry where I live even until this day no road sign in the North makes any mention of the road number South of the border even though they are so close. Seems to be quite common before heading into the North from the South that the road number is given, particularly on national routes.

L1011

Found the Esso map I mentioned earlier - its UK and Ireland, "price 7/6" so its pre-1971... and completely lacking in Irish route numbers However, it has strip maps of 'recommended routes' between cities. The Dublin->Cork recommendation is:

Cork, Cobh Junction, Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Cahir, Cashel, Littleton, Urlingford, Durro, Abbeyleix, Portlaoise, Monasterevin, Kildare, Naas, Rathcoole, Dublin.

So even if the trunk road was different the recommended route was pretty much what we use now!

Route to Galway matches the old T4 (via Athenry); route to Wexford is the new N11 (not the T7), the route to Waterford goes through Kilkenny City. Sligo/Killarney/Belfast/Limerick all look correct for N4/N7+21/N1+A1/N7

edit: I also found a 1972 OS map of Dublin; just like the current one it doesn't mark dual carriageways, but is there anything anyone wants checked on it? Its far too big to scan, unfortunately... Of note on it is a preserved alignment for the M1 at Santry.

BrianD3

MYOB wrote: »

I also found a 1972 OS map of Dublin; just like the current one it doesn't mark dual carriageways, but is there anything anyone wants checked on it? Its far too big to scan, unfortunately... Of note on it is a preserved alignment for the M1 at Santry.

I also have an old OS map for Dublin (scale 1:18000), mine's from 1974.

On the topic of old road numbers, these were often stated on the old cast iron roadsigns. There are many of these old signs left but they are gradually disappearing as roads and signage get upgraded etc. I know of several that have been taken down recently. Probably sitting in a council yard now.

L1011

Mines the same scale, its probably just the revision before yours - has "9th Popular Edition" across the top.

mackerski

icdg wrote: »

The lack of a Naas Bypass would seem to put that map somewhere between 1977 and 1983. Although the lack of national secondary routes may suggest this may pre-date the finalisation of the system in 1977...

That map is certainly post-1980, as it has the Dungannon Bypass on it. However, it could also be post-1983, as the Naas Bypass took a while to make it onto a lot of maps.

L1011

mackerski wrote: »

That map is certainly post-1980, as it has the Dungannon Bypass on it. However, it could also be post-1983, as the Naas Bypass took a while to make it onto a lot of maps.

Its definatly not the best for showing bypasses, the Dromore (early 70s) and Banbridge (late 70s) bypasses are both missing. The Dungannon one is some distance from the town compared to both of those, though.

Victor

Lads, people complain about trainspotters.

MYOB wrote: »

Its definatly not the best for showing bypasses, the Dromore (early 70s) and Banbridge (late 70s) bypasses are both missing. The Dungannon one is some distance from the town compared to both of those, though.

Ah, come on Dungannon was one of those mystical bypass the was never build, it just appeared.

corktina

Victor wrote: »

Lads, people complain about trainspotters.

speaking as one of them (trainspotter that is, not one of THEM you understand) i was thinking the same , maybe some of the lads here should be joining the Roundabout Aprreciation Society)

http://www.roundaboutsofbritain.com/

corktina

corktina wrote: »

Lads, people complain about trainspotters.

speaking as one of them (trainspotter that is, not one of THEM you understand) i was thinking the same , maybe some of the lads here should be joining the Roundabout Aprreciation Society)

http://www.roundaboutsofbritain.com/

Now there's a hobby that's going round in ever decreasing circles

Gonzo

very interesting maps, really shows how much our road network has changed recently but also notice how the motorway road network in Northern Ireland is still almost identical today as it was then. Only the M3, Westlink in Belfast not present in those old maps?

JupiterKid

green_jesus wrote: »

Hear you go lads...

This route planning map is from an old road atlas of Ireland that has the 'new' N roads and the old T&L roads. There is no date of print in the atlas so its anybody's guess when it was published. (The books cover looks mid-80's)

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=69432&d=1230829831

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=69434&d=1230829999

Taking a close look at the North section of the map, you can see (I think at least) that a part of the M2 in NI is shown as still under construction (it opened in Sept 1975), so I would date this map as early 1970s vintage. Also, as another poster pointed out the Dromore (1972) and Banbridge (1977) bypasses on the A1 are absent.

Also, the N3 (T35) is shown as a non proimary route in its width and colouring. Generally, it's unfortunately not a detailed map, and shows no DC sections as distinct from S2. My bet would be 1972 or 1973 or thereabouts.

marmurr1916

I've got an old Shell road-map of Ireland from the early 1960s (or possibly the late 1950s).

It doesn't have a date on it, but it doesn't show any of the Northern Ireland motorways (not even as under construction).

Therefore, it must pre-date the start of construction of those motorways which began in 1963.

Most of the National Primary routes had been Trunk roads and generally they followed the routes of these Trunk roads, albeit with a different numbering system.

However, some National Primary routes also incorporated existing Link roads and unclassified roads into their routes.

National Secondary routes followed a similar pattern: they often incorporated former Trunk roads as well as Link roads and unclassified roads.

Furthermore, many Trunk roads were downgraded to Regional routes, effectively 'de-trunked'.

Some newer National Primary routes were built as new roads in the 1990s and obviously didn't incorporate existing roads.

Anyway, it's interesting to compare the old routes of National Primary roads (pre-motorway/HQDC) with the old Trunk and Link road network.

For example, the old N1 (before the ROI M1 was built) followed the same route as the T1.

Likewise the N2 followed the same route as the T2.

However, the T35 was the main route from Dublin to Cavan and onwards towards Enniskillen.

The T35 followed the same route as the existing N3 as far as Butlersbridge, north of Cavan town.

From there the T35 followed the same route as what is now the N54 as far as the border, near Wattlebridge in Co. Fermanagh.

I've listed the National Primary routes (pre-motorway) below, along with the former Trunk, Link and, in some cases, unclassified roads, that were incorporated into them.

N1 - T1.

N2 - T2.

N3 - T35 from Dublin to Butlersbridge, Co. Cavan; then via formerly unclassified road from Butlersbridge to Sugarloaf (current junction of N3 and R197).

From Sugarloaf to Belturbet the N3 follows a short section of the former L50 and from Belturbet to Kilconny (current junction of N3 and N87) it follows a short section of the old T52.

From Kilconny to the border with Northern Ireland at Aghalane Bridge, the N3 follows the line of an old Link road (number not shown on old map).

At the border the route joins the former B37 (now the A509) to Enniskillen.

Summary: same as T35 from Dublin to Butlersbridge; formerly unclassified road from Butlersbridge to Sugarloaf; L50 from Sugarloaf to Belturbet; T52 from Belturbet to Kilconny; former Link road (number unknown) from Kilconny to border.

N4- T3.

N5 - T77 from Longford to Swinford, Co. Mayo; then via L21 to Bellavary via Bohola; then via section of T40 to Castlebar; then via section of T39 to Westport.

N6 - T4 from Kinnegad to Ballinasloe; then via T4a from Ballinasloe to nr Loughrea; then via T21 to Derrydonnell (now junction of N6 and R348; then junction of T4 & T21) and then continued to Galway via Oranmore and what is now the Coast Road between Oranmore and Galway along the line of the former T4.

The old T4 followed the same route as the pre-motorway, pre-Athlone bypass route as the N6 from Kinnegad to Ballinasloe but then went to Athenry via Kilconnell, New Inn, Kiltullagh on the route of what's now the R348.

From Athenry it continued along what's now the R348 as far as that road's junction with the existing N6 (at Derrydonnell) before following the existing route as far as Oranmore.

From Oranmore, it followed the Coast Road to Galway.

N7 - T5

N8 - T14 from Portlaoise to Abbeyleix, then T36 from Abbeyleix to Cashel, then T9 from Cashel to Cahir, then via route of old N8 (pre-M8/various bypasses) from Cahir to Cork as the T6.

N9 - T6 from Naas to Kilcullen, then T51 from Kilcullen to Paulstown (existing N9/northern N10 split), then L111 to Thomastown via Gowran, then L32 from Thomastown to nr Ballyhale (existing N9/southern N10 split), then T14 to Waterford.

N10 - northern section was part of T51; southern section was part of T14.

N11 - T7 to Rathnew, then went along former unclassified route from Rathnew to what is now junction of N11 and R751 (north of Kilbride), then L29 to Arklow, then T7 to Enniscorthy, then section of T8 route to Wexford (remainder of T8 to Rosslare became part of the N25).

The T7 followed the same route as the old N11 from Dublin to Rathnew, then went to Arklow via Glenealy, Rathdrum, Avoca and Woodenbridge.

The Rathdrum to Woodenbridge section is now the R752, the Woodenbridge to Arklow section is now part of the R747.

The T7 followed the same route as the old N11 from Arklow to Enniscorthy, then continued to New Ross along what is now the N30 and from New Ross to Waterford along what is now a section of the N25.

N12 - part of T15 route.

N13 - Letterkenny to border (at Bridgend) section was part of T59 to what is now junction of N13 and R265 (at Newtown Cunningham), then the N13 follows the line of what was previously the T74 to the border with Northern Ireland at Bridgend.

The southern section of the N13 (previously part of the N56) from Letterkenny to Stranorlar was part of the T59.

N14 - T60 from junction with what is now northern section of N13 to Lifford.

N15 - T18 from Sligo to Castlefinn along similar route to existing N15, then T18 continued along what is now N15 as far as border near Cloughfin, then crossed border to Clady in Co. Tyrone.

The main Sligo - Derry route continued from there along the B85 to join the A5 near Strabane.

N16 - T17.

N17 - T11 from junction with T3 (Sligo-Dublin route) nr Collooney, to south of Charlestown. The existing N17 then follows previously unclassified roads from there to Claremorris via Kilkelly and Knock village. From Claremorris, the N17 then follows the route of the former L27 as far as Ballindine. From Ballindine to Tuam it follows the route of the former L13 via Milltown. From Tuam to Galway the existing N17 follows the route of a section of the T11.

In summary, the N17 follows the northern section of the T11 from Collooney to Charlestown and a section of the T11 from Tuam to Galway.

The section of the T11 between Tuam and Charlestown followed a very different route to the existing N17 between Tuam and Charlestown.

From Tuam to north of Ballyhaunis, the T11 followed what is now the N83 via Dunmore. From north of Ballyhaunis, near the townland of Tavraun, the T11 followed what are now Local roads via Tawnyinah to the townland of Lurga Lower south of Charlestown. It then continued along what is now the N17 to Charlestown.

The southern section of the T11 continued from Galway to Cork via Limerick, following the routes of the old N18 and the old N20.

Overall, the T11 was a continuous route from Cork to Sligo via Limerick and Galway.

N18 - T11 from Limerick to Coole, then unclassified road from Coole to Kiltiernan, then T11 to Oranmore, then either link or unclassified road on Oranmore to Claregalway section (now N18, former N64).

N19 - road (number and classification not shown on old map) from T11 (now N18) to Shannon Airport.

Presumably a Trunk road was built from the junction with the T11 at Hurler's Cross to Shannon Airport at a later date as part of the old Limerick - Hurler's Cross dual-carriageway.

N20 - T11 (Limerick to Cork section).

N21 - T28.

N22 - T29 from Caherbreagh (nr Tralee at junction of N21 & N22, formerly junction of T28 & T29) to Macroom, then the old N22 followed the L39 from Macroom to Ovens.

The existing N22 now continues from Ovens and bypasses Ballincollig to merge with Cork's South Ring Road (N25).

However, the pre-bypass N22 followed the line of the L39 (now part of the R608/Carrigrohane Road) through Ballincollig and into Cork via Carrigrohane.

The old T29 continued from Macroom to Cork via Coachford - this route is now the R618.

N23 - T28a.

N24 - T13 from Limerick to Cahir; T13 multi-plexed with T6 between Cahir and outside Clonmel at what is now junction of N24 and N76; then continued solely as T13 to Waterford.

N25 - T12 from Cork to east of Dungarvan at what is now junction of N25 and N72; multi-plexed with T30 from there to Lemybrien (now junction of N25 and R676); then continued as T12 to Waterford; T12 multi-plexed with T7 from Waterford to New Ross, then continued as T12 to Wexford; then the Wexford to Rosslare section of the T8 route (which went from Enniscorthy to Rosslare).

N26 (former N57) - Ballina to Foxford section was part of T40; Foxford to Swinford section was part of T77.

N27 (formerly part of R600) - part of L42 route.

N28 (formerly part of R609) - a section of the N28 from its junction with the N25 to its junction with the R609 is a new route, built in the 1990s. The older part of the N28 route (formerly part of the R609) was previously part of the L66 to near Carrigaline, then followed the route of an unclassified road to Ringaskiddy.

N29 - n/a - new road that was built in 1990s.

N30 (former N79) - between New Ross and Enniscorthy, part of T7.

N31 - part of the existing N31 followed a section of the T44.

N32 - n/a - new road that was built in 1990s.

N33 - n/a - new road that was built in 1990s.

L1011

There was a large thread on this very recently - but I can't find it offhand unfortunately...

marmurr1916

Below, I'm going to outline the routes of the old T (Trunk roads).

T1 -T10.

T1: Dublin-Swords-Balbriggan-Drogheda-Dunleer-Dundalk-border with Northern Ireland (towards Belfast).

The T1 followed the line of the old N1 as it was prior to the opening of the ROI's M1 motorway.

T2: Dublin-Ashbourne-Slane-Collon-Ardee-Carrickmacross-Castleblayney-Monaghan-Emyvale-border with Northern Ireland (towards Derry).

The T2 followed the line of the N2 as it was prior to the opening of the HQDC between the M50 and Ashbourne and the opening of various bypasses.

T3: Dublin-Lucan-Leixlip-Maynooth-Enfield-Kinnegad-Mullingar-Edgeworthstown-Longford-Roosky-Dromod-Carrick-on-Shannon-Boyle-Collooney-Sligo.

The T3 followed the line of the N4 as it was prior to the opening of the M4 and various bypasses.

T4: (Dublin)-Kinnegad-Rochfortbridge-Kilbeggan-Moate-Athlone-Ballinasloe-Kilconnell-Kiltullagh-Athenry-Derrydonnell-Oranmore-Galway.

The T4 followed the line of the old N6 (as it was prior to the opening of the M6 and various bypasses) as far as Ballinasloe, then the line of the R348 from Ballinasloe to Derrydonnell near Oranmore, then the line of the old N6 from Derrydonnell to Oranmore to Galway.

T4a: (Dublin)-Ballinasloe-Garbally-Aughrim-Kilreekill-Kilmeen-Loughrea (multiplex with T21).

The T4a followed the line of the N6 between Ballinasloe and Loughrea, as it was prior to the opening of the Loughrea bypass and other improvements.

T5: Dublin-Naas-Newbridge-Kildare-Monasterevin-Portlaoise-Mountrath-Borris in Ossory-Roscrea-Nenagh-Limerick.

The T5 followed the line of the N7 as it was prior to the opening of the M7 and various bypasses.

T6: (Dublin)-Naas-Kilcullen-Athy-Castlecomer-Henebry's Cross-Kilkenny (multiplex with T14)-Callan-Ninemilehouse-Clonmel-Cahir-Mitchelstown-Fermoy-Rathcormac-Watergrasshill-Glanmire-Cork.

The T6 followed the line of various pre-motorway/pre-bypass National routes: the N9 between Naas and Kilcullen, the N78 between Kilcullen and Henebry's Cross, the N77 between Henebry's Cross and Kilkenny, the N76 between Kilkenny and nr Clonmel, the N24 from nr Clonmel to Cahir and the N8 between Cahir and Cork.

T7: Dublin-Stillorgan-nr Bray-Rathnew-Rathdrum-Avoca-Woodenbridge-Arklow-Gorey-Enniscorthy-New Ross-Waterford.

The T7 followed the line of various pre-motorway/pre-bypass National and Regional routes: the N11 between Dublin and Rathnew, the R752 between Rathnew and Woodenbridge, the R747 between Woodenbridge and Arklow, the N11 between Arklow and Enniscorthy, the N30 (former N79) between Enniscorthy and New Ross, the N25 between New Ross and Waterford.

T8: (Dublin)-Enniscorthy-Oylgate-Wexford-Killinick-Rosslare.

The T8 followed the line of the N11 to Wexford, the N25 from Wexford to Rosslare Harbour (both before the opening of the Wexford bypass).

T9: Dundalk-Ardee-Kells-Delvin-Mullingar-Kilbeggan-Tullamore-Ballard-Cadamstown-Kinnitty-Boheraphuca-Ballybritt-Roscrea-Templemore-Thurles-Holycross-Cashel-Cahir-(Cork).

The T9 followed the line of various National, Regional and Local routes: the N52 between Dundalk and Mullingar, the old route of the N52 (via Ballynagore, now a Local route) between Mullingar and Kilbeggan and on to Tullamore, the N52 from Tullamore to Ballard, the R421 from Ballard to Kinnitty, Local roads from Kinnitty to Ballybritt (via Boheraphuca), then followed the line of the R421 from Ballybritt to Roscrea, the N62 from Roscrea to Thurles and the R660 from Thurles to Cashel (via Holycross) where it joined the T6 (old N8) to continue to Cork.

T10: (from Enniskillen)-Wattle Bridge-border with Northern Ireland-Cloverhill-Butler's Bridge-Cavan (multiplex with T35 & T15)-Bellananagh-nr Kilcogy (multiplex with T15)-Finnea-Castlepollard-Mullingar.

The T10 started at the border with Northern Ireland near Wattle Bridge where it became a continuation of the A4/A34 route from Enniskillen. It multiplexed with the T35 and T15 routes from the border to Cavan via Butler's Bridge. The border to Butler's Bridge section of the T10-T35-T15 mulitplex is now part of the N54, the Butler's Bridge to Cavan section is now part of the N3. It then followed the line of the N55 from Cavan to near Kilcogy (multiplexing with the T15 for this section) and the R394 from there to Mullingar.

The first nine Trunk Roads (T1, T2, T3, T4, T4a, T5, T6, T7, T8) radiated out from Dublin (with the T8 branching off the T7 at Enniscorthy) and followed an anti-clockwise pattern.

This pattern was similar to the existing anti-clockwise pattern which the routes radiating out of Dublin currently follow.

The pattern was interrupted by the T35 which came between the T2 and the T3 and the T42 (now N81), T43 and T44 which came between the T5 (T6) and the T7.

This is broadly similar to the way the N81 between the N/M7 (N/M8, N/M9, N10) and the N/M11 disrupts the current pattern.

marmurr1916

MYOB wrote: »

There was a large thread on this very recently - but I can't find it offhand unfortunately...

Damn! Wish I'd known that!

Richard

Thanks for that interesting post. When do the T and L roads date from? Were they ever used in Northern Ireland? When were the A and B roads introduced there?

marmurr1916

Richard wrote: »

Thanks for that interesting post. When do the T and L roads date from?

Sorry, no idea.

Richard wrote: »

Were they ever used in Northern Ireland?

Sorry, no idea.

Richard wrote: »

When were the A and B roads introduced there?

Sorry, no idea!

Given that A and B road numbers were first introduced in Britain in 1921, I'd guess that they were introduced into Northern Ireland soon after.

The Irish Free State probably introduced its own system after its foundation, although it could be that the T and L system wasn't introduced until much later.

Richard

Thanks for the reply!

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Given that A and B road numbers were first introduced in Britain in 1921, I'd guess that they were introduced into Northern Ireland soon after.

The Irish Free State probably introduced its own system after its foundation, although it could be that the T and L system wasn't introduced until much later.

OK - I'd remembered seeing some "T" routes referred to on Wesley Johnstons fantastic NI Roads site, and thought they may have been used throughout Ireland. But looking at http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/typesandnumbers.html it seems that T routes were only used by planners and are unconnected to the ROI system.

Amtmann

I recently acquired the NRA's publication "Ireland's Principal Roads AD 1899 - 1979" by Peter O'Keefe.

It's a decent(ish) account of legislation, reports, funding and AADTs for the 1940s, 50s and 60s, but it doesn't discuss individual routes or the origin of the numbering system unfortunately. It's also very amateurishly produced: essentially printed off an office printer with illegible maps, cheaply bound, and not proofed at all. However, it is free; so give the NRA a call and they'll probably post it out to you.

I really wish someone would do a PhD on the history of the road network. It's a nice interdisciplinary topic, and could draw on economic and social geography as well as history, obviously. There's surely an IRCHSS in it for someone.