HDMI cables - ripoff?

More Music

I was looking in the Argos catalogue for a HDMI cable.

Prices range from €7.49 to €62.79 with the dearer ones having gold plated connectors, oxygen free cable and multiple shielding.

I would challenge anybody to find a visible difference between the cheapest and dearest. HDMI is a digital signal and will either work or not, there is no in-between like an analogue signal.

Shielding might be necessary if your TV was beside a 250,000 W transmitter or some industrial machinery. A 1M cable behind your TV isn't going to pickup interference.

Regarding oxygen free cables ........ how did the DTT or satellite signal get to your receiver? Oxygen free transmission?

I was at a radio industry show a few years ago, and one supplier carried a digital audio signal (AES) through a 9 inch piece of cord dipped in water.

Perfect audio at the other end, over a cord!

FrostyJack

Your telling me nothing, bought an LCD tv in Currys and the guy kept asking me if I had a HDMI cable, I told him I did, but every ten seconds he'd ask me again. The cheapest one there was about 80 quid, I got one off ebay for 10 quid delivered. Someone less clued in would have wasted 70 euro before they left the shop, it's criminal.

L1011

I had to buy a gold plated *firewire* cable due to there being no other ones in the shop there a while ago. Like an error corrected digital signal is going to degrade so much over 1 metre it needs high conductivity connectors to decode..

Oh, and neither my camcorder or my PC have gold firewire connectors so its actually a worse connection than non-gold plated would be. Just like using a gold HDMI lead...

Myxomatosis

Some people argue that they will pay a bit extra for better "build quality".

Unless you take to plugging in and out the cable on a daily basis, this apparent gain in build quality is pointless.

Apart from the different versions of the HDMI standard, i.e. 1.x, there is NO difference between a cheap and expensive HDMI cable, and no reason why you should pay anything over €15 for one.

The HDMI standard has a form of error correcting on the physical layer, therefore rendering any "top of the range" HDMI cables pointless.

Anyone who says there's an advantage to paying 30, 40, 50 + euro is a moron.

mullingar

HDMI is 100% digital signal, all 1's & 0's.

ALL HDMI CABLES WORK THE SAME.

TO ENSURE FUTURE COMPATIBILITY BUY CABLE MARKED 1.3a

There are 2 factors that *may* effect any HDMI signal. A very large transmitter nearby or a HDMI cable that is far too long which will make the voltage for the 1's seem like 0's.

Edit:

I found the CNET review of expensive rip-off cables here:

http://reviews.cnet.com/hdmi-cable/?tag=rb_content;rb_mtx

JohnC.

Yeah, the only real difference is if it needs to cover several metres.

Still, nothing beats the gold plated optical cable I saw in DID a couple of times

5uspect

Cue customary Denon linkage
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/tags-on-product/B000I1X6PM/ref=tag_dpp_cust_edpp_sa

More Music

mullingar wrote: »

HDMI is 100% digital signal, all 1's & 0's.
............
There are 2 factors that *may* effect any HDMI signal. A very large transmitter nearby or a HDMI cable that is far too long which will make the voltage for the 1's seem like 0's.

See post 1.

Creamy Goodness

5uspect wrote: »

Cue customary Denon linkage
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AKDL1-Dedicated-Link-Cable/dp/tags-on-product/B000I1X6PM/ref=tag_dpp_cust_edpp_sa

ain't a HDMI cable, tis a link cable.

zilog_jones

Way to miss the hilarious example of rediculously overpriced cable. I don't think there's one serious customer review there!

You can use standard cat. 5/6 twisted pair cable for HDMI if you really wanted.

TheDriver

\ebay all the way!!

iwo

mullingar wrote: »

HDMI is 100% digital signal, all 1's & 0's.

ALL HDMI CABLES WORK THE SAME.

TO ENSURE FUTURE COMPATIBILITY BUY CABLE MARKED 1.3a

There are 2 factors that *may* effect any HDMI signal. A very large transmitter nearby or a HDMI cable that is far too long which will make the voltage for the 1's seem like 0's.

Edit:

I found the CNET review of expensive rip-off cables here:

http://reviews.cnet.com/hdmi-cable/?tag=rb_content;rb_mtx

Have you ever compared cheap cable (10E) to good quality cable (30E)? I do not think so... I would suggest to try google and compare some photos - you can see differences!!

MrVestek

iwo wrote: »

Have you ever compared cheap cable (10E) to good quality cable (30E)? I do not think so... I would suggest to try google and compare some photos - you can see differences!!

You sir are a moron - the information that travels down the cable is the same regardless of the type used.

gbluesg

I bought a HDMI cable from Ebay to connect a Mvision HD 200 Combo to a Sony TV. It cost me €4.80 delivered and works perfectly. See link.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HDMI-Cable-Lead-Gold-1-5m-HD-Plasma-LCD-Blu-Ray-Sky-PS3_W0QQitemZ350155731829QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item350155731829&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

Creamy Goodness

zilog_jones wrote: »

Way to miss the hilarious example of rediculously overpriced cable. I don't think there's one serious customer review there!

You can use standard cat. 5/6 twisted pair cable for HDMI if you really wanted.

Well aware it's overpriced I'm not stupid and blind. The thread is on HDMI cables so why bring a cable of a different type into the thread?

watty

He isn't. You wire the CAT5e cable to the HDMI plugs. If he had talked about RJ45 connectors it would be a different cable.

watty

Some notes

ALL copper wire is Oxygen free or it would be brittle and snap easily.

Gold is poorer than Copper or Silver for conducting and not much better than Nickel. The difference on an actual pins/holes of a connector between the different materials is much much less than the resistance of the whole cable. Gold must ONLY be used to gold because if one half of connection is NOT gold, then the non-gold gets accelerated corrosion because of the Electro-chemical potential difference to Gold. Gold does not corrode, that is its only virtue.

Nickel is best for occasionally unplugged connections. Bare brass is best (and only for) plugs used several times a day or per week. Gold plated connections are the least robust wearing off quickly. Only use Gold with Gold and on connectors not disconnected/reconnected more than a few times a year.

Litz wire is only for 100KHz to 2MHz coils. It's of no value at all for audio, and at higher frequency (> 5MHz) silver plated larger diameter is best. At 200Mhz and up only the surface (copper or silver is best and the inner core below the surface of a wire can even be steel or hollow. Coax for TV & Satellite only the inner surface of the outer screen and outer surface of inner core counts at all.

Almost all of what is in Gadget and HiFi reviews is rubbish nowadays.

5uspect

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Well aware it's overpriced I'm not stupid and blind. The thread is on HDMI cables so why bring a cable of a different type into the thread?

Its an illustrative example of the attitude of manufacturers and vendors in exploiting the general ignorance of the public. I was simply pointing out that such disdain for a posh cat cables can equally be applied to over priced HDMI cables. /sheesh

portach king

Ok, this thread is very informative, but do any of you have any suggestions as to where you can buy HDMI cables without being ripped off (Preferably in Dublin)?
I remember reading here that Tesco appearantly does cables, though I've never seen them. Maybe I'm visiting the wrong branches?

fat-tony

I've bought perfectly satisfactory HDMI cables in Power City for 7.99.

snaps

I brought one from tesco for £1.99 for the craic when i was up north and its exactually the same as one of my gold plated ones. No difference in picture quality at all.

zilog_jones

portach king wrote: »

I remember reading here that Tesco appearantly does cables, though I've never seen them. Maybe I'm visiting the wrong branches?

The bigger ones have a section for electrical goods. Less likely with the ex-Quinnsworths unless they found more space.

mayordenis

iwo wrote: »

Have you ever compared cheap cable (10E) to good quality cable (30E)? I do not think so... I would suggest to try google and compare some photos - you can see differences!!

i'm afraid I actually have about 5 HDMI cables from different shops and price ranges (I move m computers and crap around alot) there's no difference I think you need to be talking a massive amount of distance before there is any potential drop - 25m like.

Capt'n Midnight

watty wrote:

Gold must ONLY be used to gold because if one half of connection is NOT gold, then the non-gold gets accelerated corrosion because of the Electro-chemical potential difference to Gold. Gold does not corrode, that is its only virtue.

Nickel is best for occasionally unplugged connections. Bare brass is best (and only for) plugs used several times a day or per week. Gold plated connections are the least robust wearing off quickly. Only use Gold with Gold and on connectors not disconnected/reconnected more than a few times a year.

Just to add
Having two dissimilar metals together near a hot TV could possibly give rise to the thermocouple effect where voltage is generated at the junction but it won't affect digital signals.

Scientific , medical and industrial equipment costing many many times what home HiFi equipment costs don't use gold connectors.

mullingar

portach king wrote: »

Ok, this thread is very informative, but do any of you have any suggestions as to where you can buy HDMI cables without being ripped off (Preferably in Dublin)?
I remember reading here that Tesco appearantly does cables, though I've never seen them. Maybe I'm visiting the wrong branches?

Buy the cheapest you can find in Supermarkets/ €2 shops etc.

If it does not work bring it back under warranty

iwo

Achilles wrote: »

You sir are a moron - the information that travels down the cable is the same regardless of the type used.

And u sir are muppet... I talk about cable not about person so stop calling me that way...

So many ignorants, I do not talk about signal but quality, some crap cables are made badly and u can see difference. I spent 2500-3000 euro on equipment and I would never buy cable for 2 euro.

Following you way of thinking: you have two the same speakers, one assembled by B&W and another one by some tesco brand... Which one do you buy?? I let you answer this question...
If you have some Beko or other ****sung Tv than OK buy some crap cable as it doesnt make any difference. If you have good system then YES go for some better cable. BETTER MADE -cable

Sleipnir

snaps wrote: »

as one of my gold plated ones.

Gold-plated is arse anyway. Silver is a much better conductor.

JohnC.

iwo wrote: »

Following you way of thinking: you have two the same speakers, one assembled by B&W and another one by some tesco brand... Which one do you buy?? I let you answer this question...
If you have some Beko or other ****sung Tv than OK buy some crap cable as it doesnt make any difference. If you have good system then YES go for some better cable. BETTER MADE -cable

Comparing a digital cable with analog speakers? Two completely different things with completely different levels of complexity and which work in completely different ways?

Myxomatosis

iwo wrote: »

I spent 2500-3000 euro on equipment and I would never buy cable for 2 euro.
If you have some Beko or other ****sung Tv than OK buy some crap cable as it doesnt make any difference. If you have good system then YES go for some better cable. BETTER MADE -cable

I'm sorry to say this but you're just plain wrong.

Martin_F

If the cables carry analogue signals - then yes buying very cheap may not be a good idea. But I agree, with digital signals it is much less of an issue - the whole point of digital signals is that they are much less sensitive to noise/interference - yes you may pick up noise - but the TV is unlikely to incorrectly read the binary levels '0' or '1'. I have 2 HDMI cables - one significantly higher quality than the other - and you can't tell the difference in picture quality - both perfect. I agree buying the expensive top of the range HDMI cables is an utter waste of money - playing to peoples ignorance after dealing for years with analoge hifi/tv.

But it is also true that the cheaper cables may be of poor build quality - and may fail or not work because of it - but as someone has said already - you just bring it back to the shop under warranty.

L1011

iwo wrote: »

Have you ever compared cheap cable (10E) to good quality cable (30E)? I do not think so... I would suggest to try google and compare some photos - you can see differences!!

Yes, actually, I have. It is an impossibility for their to be differences because the output bitstream from both cables will be identical

You are clearly gullible.

L1011

iwo wrote: »

And u sir are muppet... I talk about cable not about person so stop calling me that way...

So many ignorants, I do not talk about signal but quality, some crap cables are made badly and u can see difference. I spent 2500-3000 euro on equipment and I would never buy cable for 2 euro.

Following you way of thinking: you have two the same speakers, one assembled by B&W and another one by some tesco brand... Which one do you buy?? I let you answer this question...
If you have some Beko or other ****sung Tv than OK buy some crap cable as it doesnt make any difference. If you have good system then YES go for some better cable. BETTER MADE -cable

You are a fool who is easily parted from their cash.

HDMI cables either work; or they don't. Two states, no other possibility. Whether you're using a Muppet Cable that cost 300 euro or a Poundworld special there is absolutely no possibility of the signals being different.

And your comparison of an analogue output device with what is basically a computer cable carrying a digital signal is laughably invalid.

snaps

portach king wrote: »

Ok, this thread is very informative, but do any of you have any suggestions as to where you can buy HDMI cables without being ripped off (Preferably in Dublin)?
I remember reading here that Tesco appearantly does cables, though I've never seen them. Maybe I'm visiting the wrong branches?

I got mine in Tesco in Enniskillen in the north. it was 1.99 sterling at the time.

recycler1

Myxomatosis wrote: »

Anyone who ...... is a moron.

Achilles wrote: »

You sir are a moron ......

iwo wrote: »

And u sir are muppet...

MYOB wrote: »

You are a fool ........

Some misguided, ill-informed, contributions? Yes, without a doubt.
But why so personal??

More Music wrote: »

Regarding oxygen free cables ........ how did the DTT or satellite signal get to your receiver? Oxygen free transmission?

Ah cmon, you're better than that - you're talking about WIRELESS transmission. Nothing at all to do with cables.

zilog_jones wrote: »

You can use standard cat. 5/6 twisted pair cable for HDMI if you really wanted.

Do you need one Cat 5 cable or two?? A cursory glance at the spec would seem to indicate that two are required.
Can you get away with using one cable to carry the data and clock signals, only?

iwo

Listen, I would not buy anything for 2E a specially a cable, I am not talking about 30-50E, I bought cable for 20E and I am happy with it, and I am sure that this cable will work for good few years. 2euro? spend it in mcdonals...

read this: http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx

Also do you think that you can buy hdmi 1.3b for 2 euro?? You talk some nonsense about digital (1) and (0)... It is about speed as well!! You will not loose quality of information but you will loose on speed... More tolerance please

... 2 euro... please..... price of toilet paper

You can find some test here, http://audio.blogbiznes.pl/2008/06/13/kablem-hdmi

do not ask me to translate it, just compare photos

summary - test done on 5 different TVs and two cables (10euro) and (100euro) if you do not see difference it means you are blind

More Music

recycler1 wrote: »

Ah cmon, you're better than that - you're talking about WIRELESS transmission. Nothing at all to do with cables.

Yes I am. I was just making a point that the whole thing is ridiculous.

A HDMI will either work or not, no in between. The only difference is maybe a €3 cable won't withstand long-term constant unplugging.

€10 should be around the limit when buying one of these.

Neutrik who make professional audio connectors for the audio/radio industry don't use gold plating. A standard XLR connector can be used for analog or digital signals with no deterioration in quality.

snaps

Lads, calm down!

If you want to spend lots of money on a HDMI cable then go ahead. We are just saying on here that HDMI cables can be got for as cheap as £2.

I have a gold plated HDMI cable on my technomate and a tesco value on my freesat hd box. If i swap the value HDMI cable into the back of the Technomate on a Canal+ HD channel i cannot see any difference whats so ever.

So at the moment i would be happy with my £2 HDMI cable over a £15 HDMI cable.

Everyone to their own.

I thought id never have an ALBA product under my TV or infact in my house and now i do. Ive freesat boxes made by ALBA who have an awful reputation, But the HD picture is as good as my £350 TM6900.

It does the job and this day in age, thats all that matters.

watty

iwo wrote: »

Listen, I would not buy anything for 2E a specially a cable, I am not talking about 30-50E, I bought cable for 20E and I am happy with it, You talk some nonsense about digital (1) and (0)... It is about speed as well!! You will not loose quality of information but you will loose on speed... More tolerance please


You can find some test here, http://audio.blogbiznes.pl/2008/06/13/kablem-hdmi

do not ask me to translate it, just compare photos

summary - test done on 5 different TVs and two cables (10euro) and (100euro) if you do not see difference it means you are blind

On Analogue SCART possibly if one is bunch of skinny wires and other is individual coaxes in a single cable.

On HDMI it is not possible to see a difference between two working cables. €5 to €10 inc VAT is reasonable. €15 to €100 is a rip-off.

If you continue to punt audio blogger snake oil you will be infracted.

The AV industry is full of snake oil. It's hard to get decent build quality. Some Analogue cables and digital cables DO NOT meet specs. Usually such USB or HDMI cables don't work. However price is NO guide. I have seen €40 cables (SCART and HDMI) that are gaudy rubbish and €10 cables that are properly designed and meet the specification.

In the AV industry you pay more for a big brand name. It may not ensure adequate quality at all. If a firewire, USB, or HDMI cable works, it works. The speed is NOT decided by the cable quality.

Gold plated modem, USB, HDMI or anything else do not go faster.

mjsmyth

If anyone is looking for a good quality cat 6 cable to use with their denon system, i am more than happy to make one up for you. Why pay over 500 euro for a cable, I'll make you one for 299euro


mj

(ps. the above is not an advert!!!!)

recycler1

More Music wrote: »

Yes I am. I was just making a point that the whole thing is ridiculous.

It was meant as a joke - I was agreeing with you.:o

More Music wrote: »

A HDMI will either work or not, no in between. The only difference is maybe a €3 cable won't withstand long-term constant unplugging.
€10 should be around the limit when buying one of these.

+1
This thread shows how easily people, especially those with little or no technical knowledge, can be mislead.

zilog_jones

iwo wrote: »

You can find some test here, http://audio.blogbiznes.pl/2008/06/13/kablem-hdmi

do not ask me to translate it, just compare photos

summary - test done on 5 different TVs and two cables (10euro) and (100euro) if you do not see difference it means you are blind

How can photos taken of TV screens prove anything? It's like they didn't even use a tripod, and some of them aren't in focus either. There are too many variables to consider with such photos to suggest any the difference in the pictures is anything to do with the HDMI cables. I don't even know where to start with how pointless that comparison is. :rolleyes:

Personally I question the build quality of some €2 cable but I'd have to see them to make any real judgement - they could just be heavily discounted so may not be all that bad. But I certainly wouldn't pay more than around €20 for HDMI cable unless we're talking about >3m lengths.

zilog_jones

watty wrote: »

It's hard to get decent build quality. Some Analogue cables and digital cables DO NOT meet specs. Usually such USB or HDMI cables don't work. However price is NO guide. I have seen €40 cables (SCART and HDMI) that are gaudy rubbish and €10 cables that are properly designed and meet the specification.

The thing about the HDMI 1.3 specs is that it means the cables are supposed to be able to carry 1920×1200 @ 60p with 48-bit colour - even my PC is not capable of outputting that (well Windows only goes up to "32-bit" which is really 24-bit AFAIK) - that's up to 10.2 Gbit/s with audio. Most (all?) current consumer equipment is not capable of that kind of output so in reality we'd only be using about half that bandwidth at most - if some crappy HDMI cable only barely meets the 1.3 specifications or even falls short of it, we wouldn't even notice.

watty

recycler1 wrote: »

Some misguided, ill-informed, contributions? Yes, without a doubt.
But why so personal??


Ah cmon, you're better than that - you're talking about WIRELESS transmission. Nothing at all to do with cables.


Do you need one Cat 5 cable or two?? A cursory glance at the spec would seem to indicate that two are required.
Can you get away with using one cable to carry the data and clock signals, only?

Yes. let's not have personal attacks. However the information in IWO's posts MUST be clearly identified as nonsense.

You'd need two.
You can fit baluns on Analogue RGB SCART and you then need one Cat5e for RGB, one for Stereo in and Out and one for composite video in/out and signalling. However you can run it 1000m! About 5.5MHz bandwidth Analogue signal

Actual multi-coax single cable quality RGB scart cable would cost x10 as much and only be good to about 25m.

Digital signals designed for cables are much, much easier to pass with out error. HDMI is 100% Digital.

Even VGA which is similar analogue signal to RGB SCART can go over CAT5e for about 500m at 640x480 and with equalised balun 1920x 1200 VGA will go 100m on CAT5e. That's about 140MHz bandwidth Analogue signal.

HDMI data rate is about 12Gbps max,(NO HD reception in Europe needs more than 2.4Gbps), so if the cable is too long the receiving end can't separate the 1s and 0s, the picture doesn't work at all.

All European HD needs no more 75MHz bandwidth (A category 1 HDMI cable) , so you can see from the VGA example having a 10m cable is not hard. A 2844 x 1600p ultra HD or PC display needs about 340MHz, a Category 2 HDMI cable.

A dual Cat5 cable will allow highest speed HDMI at up to 50m.

The higher spec cables never ever improve picture quality or resolution. That is decided by the video source and the display.

A 768 line or 720 line HD display will seriously degrade quality as ALL transmissions in Europe are 1080 line and true BD content is 1080 line also. If you have a 26" HD screen and normal vision and are 8ft away, you may not notice any much difference between DVD and HD TV. At 6ft from a 48" screen you will notice a huge difference.

If the HDMI cable works you can't see any difference between a €3 and €300 model 3m long cable.

watty

zilog_jones wrote: »

The thing about the HDMI 1.3 specs is that it means the cables are supposed to be able to carry 1920×1200 @ 60p with 48-bit colour - even my PC is not capable of outputting that (well Windows only goes up to "32-bit" which is really 24-bit AFAIK) -

Actually PCs and setboxes only output 256 levels (8 bit) max per RGB channel. No LCD or Plasma can properly reproduce that range which is about 16Million different hues, saturations and brightnesses. It's about 768 to one brightness range. Most of the contrast/brightness ranges on LCDs involve trickery and are nothing like that. A really good CRT will do a good bit more. But HD CRTs of decent size are rarer than hen's teeth.

recycler1

iwo wrote: »

Listen, I would not buy anything for 2E a specially a cable, I am not talking about 30-50E, I bought cable for 20E and I am happy with it, and I am sure that this cable will work for good few years. 2euro? spend it in mcdonals..

... 2 euro... please..... price of toilet paper

As a teenager, long ago now, I used to work part-time in an electronics shop. One of my tasks was making up "special" cables for customers. (All types, RF, Audio....) Now, the customers paying more for their "specials" were absolutely convinced that they were getting a "better" product. It was highly profitable for the shop and all were happy.;)

Now, which do think was actually the better product, from a performance point of view? A pre-packed lead manufactured under rigorous quality control or my "special" hand-soldered leads. (Let me answer, I was a competent "solderer" but no way could I compete with an automated assembly line.)

My points are:

1) That it is in shops interest to push specials, be it "hand-made", "gold-plated", whatever. Their margins on such items are far, far, higher than on standard items.

2) People convince themselves that paying more, gets them more. Sometimes it does, with HDMI, just as with my leads, it does not!

3) Magazines, forums, whatever, must also push these items. (There's not many column inchs to write about all HDMI leads, once they work at all, giving exactly the same audio and video performance.)

Take the informed opinion on this forum and save your money for something that does make a difference.

recycler1

watty wrote: »

Yes. let's not have personal attacks. However the information in IWO's posts MUST be clearly identified as nonsense.

Totally agree.

watty wrote: »

You'd need two.

Pity. I wired my house with Cat5, but only single cables. ....

zilog_jones

Actually PCs and setboxes only output 256 levels (8 bit) max per RGB channel...

Oh yeah I guess it is 32-bit - what was I thinking?

Sure any consumer-level H.264, MPEG-2, etc. HD video is only going to be 4:2:0 component colour anyway - nowhere near 32-bit RGB, never mind anything higher!

Actually, do STBs and BD players usually convert 4:2:0 to 32-bit RGB or maybe 4:2:2? I'm not sure if HDMI actually supports 4:2:0 from what I can see...

Creamy Goodness

this thread is funny, grown men exchanging insults over a ****ing cable.

seriously.

Capt'n Midnight

actually do HDMI signals include error control ?

if so then it shows the system is designed to give 100% reliablilty even when there is some data loss whether it be from inteference or cheap cables or cosmic rays

iwo

MYOB wrote: »

You are a fool who is easily parted from their cash.

HDMI cables either work; or they don't. Two states, no other possibility. Whether you're using a Muppet Cable that cost 300 euro or a Poundworld special there is absolutely no possibility of the signals being different.

And your comparison of an analogue output device with what is basically a computer cable carrying a digital signal is laughably invalid.

Do you have difficulties with reading or understanding (looks like both)... ? Did I call you a fool or something? NOW, so grow up boy and do constructive discussion...

recycler1

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

this thread is funny, grown men exchanging insults over a ****ing cable.

seriously.

Ah, go on, let us have our fun.:)

How is life in DIT, these days?