Counter-Strike to Public Sector Demonstration

DizzyOC

On Thursday 26th of February the Public Sector Unions are staging a protest rally that will involve some 13,000 public servants who cannot loose their jobs. nor can they lose their gold-plated pensions. However, they are unhappy that now, for the first time, they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension. I, on the other hand, am unemployed and live on €204p.w.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0218/pensions.html

They fully intend to bring much of the country to a halt through strike action thus stopping ordinary people from getting to work, receiving health care or in some cases, simply causing a loss of income, through disruption, that could be the clincher in finishing off a small business and forcing their friends and fellow country-men into the rapidly growing numbers of the unemployed - a fate impossible for the public service to suffer.

The damage already done to the rest of Ireland and the damage that is still to come is unprecedented and monumental. It is for this reason that i am compelled to try and organize a counter-demonstration to the public sector. No longer can we afford to pay their inflated salaries, no longer can we afford to pay for their inflated, unrealistic pension-privileges and fund their irrational expenses.

Nor can we let them incorporate special needs children into their argument. or try to unite "all workers" so they can march on without taking a hit while private sector workers suffer pay-cuts or lay-offs. Dell and Waterford Crystal are not related problems and nor should they be used to garner support by the unions for the rejection of the public sector pension levy.

So on the 26th of February at Midday, i propose a guerilla counter demonstration, gathering at Dáil Éireann to let the public sector know how the rest of the country feels. Will this demonstration have your support? Can i count on you to attend? A peaceful, but forceful demonstration to bring sight to those who cannot see.

Best Regards,

D. O'Ceallaigh

Akrasia

DizzyOC wrote: »

On Thursday 26th of February the Public Sector Unions are staging a protest rally that will involve some 13,000 public servants who cannot loose their jobs. nor can they lose their gold-plated pensions. However, they are unhappy that now, for the first time, they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension. I, on the other hand, am unemployed and live on €204p.w.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0218/pensions.htm

They fully intend to bring much of the country to a halt through strike action thus stopping ordinary people from getting to work, receiving health care or in some cases, simply causing a loss of income, through disruption, that could be the clincher in finishing off a small business and forcing their friends and fellow country-men into the rapidly growing numbers of the unemployed - a fate impossible for the public service to suffer.

The damage already done to the rest of Ireland and the damage that is still to come is unprecedented and monumental. It is for this reason that i am compelled to try and organize a counter-demonstration to the public sector. No longer can we afford to pay their inflated salaries, no longer can we afford to pay for their inflated, unrealistic pension-privileges and fund their irrational expenses.

Nor can we let them incorporate special needs children into their argument. or try to unite "all workers" so they can march on without taking a hit while private sector workers suffer pay-cuts or lay-offs. Dell and Waterford Crystal are not related problems and nor should they be used to garner support by the unions for the rejection of the public sector pension levy.

So on the 26th of February at Midday, i propose a guerilla counter demonstration, gathering at Dáil Éireann to let the public sector know how the rest of the country feels. Will this demonstration have your support? Can i count on you to attend? A peaceful, but forceful demonstration to bring sight to those who cannot see.

Best Regards,

D. O'Ceallaigh

Shouldn't you be at work on a thursday at midday? are you telling people to leave their jobs to protest at the disruption another strike is causing?

Dante

Would your strike not disrupt the county even more?

ParkRunner

As far as I know it is only the CPSU who have called for a strike on the 26th. These are the lowest paid group in the public sector who are being hit with in my opinion a disproportionate levy. If you want to counter strike 13,000 lowly paid civil servants I wish you luck!

OhNoYouDidn't

To paraphrase.

DizzyOC wrote: »

Things didn't work out for me the way I wanted, I'm on the dole, I want everyone dragged down to my level.

Best Regards,

D. O'Ceallaigh

gerry28

DizzyOC

Many of the low paid public servants earn so little their resulting pension would be less than the state pension (non con) they would get if they never worked a day in their life.
So why would they contribute up to 14% of their income for sweet FA????

mumhaabu

Divide and Conquer a typical FF ploy. We need unity from Conservatives like myself to radical hippy leftists, Unity is needed in this crisis and I would happily march in a Gay Pride March or with Communists against Fianna Fail. All that is needed is a way to channel everyones problems into Universal hatred of this Government and force it out using any means. Peaceful Protest would be the favoured but we are fast approaching the point where a military coup should not be ruled out. Thousands of people should storm the Dail and stay there and give us our Emerald Revolution. Over one hundred thousand took to the streets over Irish Ferries and the Bokenstein Directive in 2005.

Fight not each other but this Government. I am not a fan of Unions but they are the only people who can organise people power and a General strike across all sectors is needed to force FF out of office.

ixoy

gerry28 wrote: »

Many of the low paid public servants earn so little their resulting pension would be less than the state pension they would get if they never worked a day in their life.

Source for this please - show me figures because I don't believe it.

Void

gerry28 wrote: »

DizzyOC

Many of the low paid public servants earn so little their resulting pension would be less than the state pension they would get if they never worked a day in their life.
So why would they contribute up to 14% of their income for sweet FA????

I was under the impression that one needs to have made 10 years of PRSI contributions to qualify for State Pension.

Information here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/older-and-retired-people/oap_contributory/#introduction

Am I right in guessing that you also think immigrants automatically qualify for the dole too?

gerry28

The point is its a raw deal for low paid public servants. So they are not going to sit back and be trampled on.

CleverUsername

Void wrote: »

I was under the impression that one needs to have made 10 years of PRSI contributions to qualify for State Pension.

Information here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/older-and-retired-people/oap_contributory/#introduction

Am I right in guessing that you also think immigrants automatically qualify for the dole too?

You are thinking of the Contributory State Pension.

Even if you haven't paid PRSI you can get the Non Contributory State Pension

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/older-and-retired-people/oap_non_contributory

Void

gerry28 wrote: »

The point is its a raw deal for low paid public servants. So they are not going to sit back and be trampled on.

Excuse us if we do not take your word for it. Please post some links to back up your assertions.

gerry28

Many of the public servants who job share and earn less than €20,000 pa.
If they are approaching retirement age shortly their entitlement would be less than the state non con pension

serfboard

DizzyOC wrote: »

Will this demonstration have your support?

No.

DizzyOC wrote: »

Can i count on you to attend?

No.

Here you are proposing worker attacking worker (or non-worker) while those whose earnings are 2 million a year consider that to be "substantially less" than what they earned last year - this from people whose risky lending behaviour and short-term bonus-seeking got us into this fine mess.

Yes, there are certain workers in the public sector getting far too much as well - Brian Cowen (who earns more than Barack Obama), Patrick Neary, Roddy Collins, any of the political hacks on the boards of the semi-states. But as other people have pointed out, when you have a government that does not exclude those at the bottom from this cutback, and in fact disproportionately favours those at the top (as they have done for the last 10 years) then you can see why the country is so angry, and why your suggested protest should, and will, fail.

gerry28

Here you are proposing worker attacking worker (or non-worker)

This seems tho be the Irish way. During the famine and during british rule the Irish turned on each other and their masters looked on and laughed. The same is happening again... ordinary worker against ordinary worker, all while the big boys laugh!

SEPT 23 1989

we are all in this together against a corrupt FF and their corrupt bankers,people see through this public v private smokescreen

Dannyboy83

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

To paraphrase.

FPMSL:D:D


To the OP, I disagree with you point of view, but I commend you for standing up and taking action.
If only the rest of the country were like you.

Don't let the Irish begrudgers hold you down.

DizzyOC

This is not about public versus private, it is not about envy or bitterness, but in a recession, everything has to get cut back. I'm trying to highlight the fact that if the public sector doesn't cede territory then we'll all be in even more trouble. the average civil servant is already on a higher income than the average private worker and with deflation kicking in, not only does their money stay the same but will actually gain in value! They need to have their incomes benchmarked again (it works more than just one way). The total wage bill right now is crippling the government and will only do so more in the future as the certain decline continues.

In order to try and maintain confidence internationally we need to be seen to be tough and act with purpose and this move is exactly that. to try and force a u-turn is to do the opposite. so the government, while being criticized for non-action are actually starting to make decisions that are tough but are being undermined. they need all of our support, tough as it will be.

Our country is on its knees right now, and if the IMF should step in in at any point what do you think will happen? i'm amazed at the fact that so few people seem to fully understand the ramifications here.

How many people joining the lines in dole offices daily would jump at the chance to have what these protected workers already have? they'd probably jump to have half of it too. i would. but for the future of our nation this levy is peanuts. absolutely peanuts.

ParkRunner

I cant see how the public sector is gaining money with no prosepect of the implementation of the agreed pay increase (despite the banks and ESB paying this), no prospect of promotion, the implementation the income levy as everyone has had, the implementation of the pension levy and the impending increase in income tax.

DizzyOC

EF wrote: »

I cant see how the public sector is gaining money with no prosepect of the implementation of the agreed pay increase (despite the banks and ESB paying this), no prospect of promotion, the implementation the income levy as everyone has had, the implementation of the pension levy and the impending increase in income tax.

In deflationary times (which we entered into in january), the cost of living drops. wages in the private sector are falling too so an equalibrium is had.

But if the public sector pay remains the same then, as prices fall, it's essentially a pay-rise. add to this that there is a smaller number of employed private sector workers paying taxes than there were and so many that still are working are taking cuts in pay/hours, how can it be possible to support public pay any longer? let alone generate enough tax to dig us out of this hole.

achtungbarry

DizzyOC wrote: »

On Thursday 26th of February the Public Sector Unions are staging a protest rally that will involve some 13,000 public servants who cannot loose their jobs. nor can they lose their gold-plated pensions. However, they are unhappy that now, for the first time, they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension. I, on the other hand, am unemployed and live on €204p.w.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0218/pensions.html

They fully intend to bring much of the country to a halt through strike action thus stopping ordinary people from getting to work, receiving health care or in some cases, simply causing a loss of income, through disruption, that could be the clincher in finishing off a small business and forcing their friends and fellow country-men into the rapidly growing numbers of the unemployed - a fate impossible for the public service to suffer.

The damage already done to the rest of Ireland and the damage that is still to come is unprecedented and monumental. It is for this reason that i am compelled to try and organize a counter-demonstration to the public sector. No longer can we afford to pay their inflated salaries, no longer can we afford to pay for their inflated, unrealistic pension-privileges and fund their irrational expenses.

Nor can we let them incorporate special needs children into their argument. or try to unite "all workers" so they can march on without taking a hit while private sector workers suffer pay-cuts or lay-offs. Dell and Waterford Crystal are not related problems and nor should they be used to garner support by the unions for the rejection of the public sector pension levy.

So on the 26th of February at Midday, i propose a guerilla counter demonstration, gathering at Dáil Éireann to let the public sector know how the rest of the country feels. Will this demonstration have your support? Can i count on you to attend? A peaceful, but forceful demonstration to bring sight to those who cannot see.

Best Regards,

D. O'Ceallaigh

I've seen some utter rubbish posted here before but this takes the biscuit.

I am a low paid public sector worker. I earn about 26k. I will be down about 200 euro a month (myself and wife together)

And here's the thing, I am more than prepared to swallow that medecine and again some if neccessary because yes I am am fully aware that I have relatively safe job (for now) and good pension conditions. I am not however rolling in money, far from it but I am quite prepared to do my bit.

I do however make no apologies for being a public sector worker with a relatively safe job. When times were good and friends all around me were making a mint in the private sector and I could have too, I made a choice. I made a choice not to think short or medium term but long term. I made the choice to take a lower paid public service job precisely for the job security and pension benefits it offered in the long term. I could have made a lot (and I mean a lot) more in the private sector. I chose not to. I chose between short term gain and long term security and I make no apologies for that. I applied for and had my choice of lucrative offers from private companies. I made my choice.


I do not however want to see anybody in the private sector lose jobs and I will march alongside private sector workers in defence of their jobs especially those on low wages (I am fully aware that not everyone in the private sector is making a mint so please do not assume the same of the public sector). The excuse for a government we have have being drumming this up into an us vs them for a while now. "Divide and conquer" as another poster said. What will this acheive ? really, what ? Will it fix our economy ?

Let me make it clear that like many people in this country I am disgusted at those overpaid fat arsed do nothings that exist in all parts of the public sector. They give the ones who do the real work at the bottom a bad name and I believe that they should be idenified and cleared out without delay along with a few of the lazy do nothings who sadly exist in the lower levels. I have no sympathy for these people. They tar me with their brush.

Again let me repeat I am quite prepared to take a hit and even another one and have my increments frozen until whenever. I know and appreciate my luck to have a public service job but will not feel guilty about it. I made my choice.

My only problem with the deal is that there is no balance. Why don't we go after and prosecute criminal bank officials ? Why don't we bring a 48% tax band for eanings over 100,000 ? Why don't we clear ot the crap in the upper rungs of the public service ? why don't we give the people a chance to give their opinion of our government in an election ?

This is a time to unite not be divided. OP you can march against me all you want. I will march beside you.

DizzyOC wrote: »

How many people joining the lines in dole offices daily would jump at the chance to have what these protected workers already have?

Dizzy, I did jump at the chance a few years ago when times were good and that is why I make no apologies. I went from 37 k down to 24 k at the time in exchange for this security. Again I made a choice.

joolsveer

I am self employed for the last number of years. I left a job in the public service. I would not jump at the chance to go back. If there are people out there who want to join the public service let them go through the same recruitment as other candidates. I don't support either private or public service members who bay for blood.

ParkRunner

DizzyOC wrote: »

In deflationary times (which we entered into in january), the cost of living drops. wages in the private sector are falling too so an equalibrium is had.

But if the public sector pay remains the same then, as prices fall, it's essentially a pay-rise. add to this that there is a smaller number of employed private sector workers paying taxes than there were and so many that still are working are taking cuts in pay/hours, how can it be possible to support public pay any longer? let alone generate enough tax to dig us out of this hole.

So what do you suggest? Add to the numbers in the social wefare queue? Decrease the amount of money available in the economy by cutting the pay of those at the lower end of the civil service (as it is those who will be protesting). Also give them the standard 12 months before they lose their home?
I would support your protest if you were directing your attention to the higher paid members of our society rather than those at the very bottom!

DizzyOC

EF wrote: »

I would support your protest if you were directing your attention to the higher paid members of our society rather than those at the very bottom!

That is exactly why it is the lower paid workers being wheeled out! The unions are playing a game here, pulling at the heart strings to win favor! It's cynical, it's a dirty game, a smoke-screen!

None of this helps the bigger picture. The government is not stepping on the little man, it's making a move for every man!

thomasj

The problem was that at at the time there was overinflated house prices, overinflated costs of goods and overinflated wages. As the cost of living in this country was so high, the only way people could buy overinflated property was by taking out overinflated mortgages.

As the wages, costs of goods, and house values correct themselves the mortgage value doesn't change and as a result of lower wages, job losses etc people will realise they cant afford to pay it back and the house is repossessed and returned to the completly worthless to them at the moment. Other than begging banks to renegotiate mortgages this mess is just going to get bigger., this is the tip of the iceberg and unfortunately this will apply to everyone private and public.

To say that this demonstration is gonna cause damage is not gonna matter
the damage is done.

A few notes for the op-

RE Pensions:
Civil servants pre 95 get the same state pension as the rest of the country ie they dont contribute
Civil servants post 95 pay 6% of their salary for the pension everyone is giving out about.

Also all this hasnt even got barely a mention seen as though everyone is private vs public.

If this levy was fair there would be no problems. The reliefs that senior ciivil servants and ministers get are wrong where the money is needed here, there should be no reliefs for anyone against this levy. as a result not enough can be got out of this levy(This may sound mad but i dont think it goes far enough)

Irrespective of that i have heard so many people (public and private) say the private v public debate is a scam to divert away from the scandals coming out of the banking sector

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/overhaul-of-td-perks-wont-save-money-for-taxpayers-1608315.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lenihan-pay-plea-falls-on-deaf-ears-as-just-a-dozen-agree-to-cut-1624951.html

Its also rumoured that the TDS pay cut was dropped in favour of the pension levy. I dont know if its true but if it is its a disgrace.

gerry28

DizzyOC

You mentioned earlier about survivng on €204 per week. I'm a public servant on €28000 pa. After I pay my mortgage, car loan and maintanence payments I am left with less than €200 per week for bills, food, insurances, petrol, clothes and all other unforseen expenses. I can't afford to lose another €30 a week on this levy. This is the reality for many low paid public servants.
Of course its disastrous for the many that are now unemployed. But what about those in the private sector who are still in employment. Why can't they be asked to pay too.

nhughes100

DizzyOC wrote: »

On Thursday 26th of February the Public Sector Unions are staging a protest rally that will involve some 13,000 public servants who cannot loose their jobs. nor can they lose their gold-plated pensions. However, they are unhappy that now, for the first time, they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension. I, on the other hand, am unemployed and live on €204p.w. /quote ]

Althought I think you're trolling I'll respond, you're quite incorrect on the line "for the first time ever they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension" Prior to the levy I was paying over 200 euro a month into the pension, now I'll be paying double that. Every public and civil servant pays into the pension fund and you have no choice in the matter. The fact that this penalises lower paid workers much more so then higher paid seems to have passed you by.

Try getting some facts and then some people might support you.

Sconsey

Barry, I agree with most of what you are saying, good post with good points but two comments....

achtungbarry wrote: »

*snip*
When times were good and friends all around me were making a mint in the private sector and I could have too, I made a choice.

I think that's a general misconception, I have always worked in private sector and never really made a mint (during the boom or before it). Many public servents think that private workers made out like bandits, not true, some did but the majority did not. Works both ways, I used to think PS workers were all overpaid but now realise that some are, most probably are not.

achtungbarry wrote: »

*snip*
Dizzy, I did jump at the chance a few years ago when times were good and that is why I make no apologies. I went from 37 k down to 24 k at the time in exchange for this security. Again I made a choice.

Sorry but I don't buy that, I doubt you are comparing like with like there. I am guessing you went from one job with higher responsibilities/requirements to a lower one.

DizzyOC

gerry28 wrote: »

DizzyOC

You mentioned earlier about survivng on €204 per week. I'm a public servant on €28000 pa. After I pay my mortgage, car loan and maintanence payments I am left with less than €200 per week for bills, food, insurances, petrol, clothes and all other unforseen expenses. I can't afford to lose another €30 a week on this levy. This is the reality for many low paid public servants.
Of course its disastrous for the many that are now unemployed. But what about those in the private sector who are still in employment. Why can't they be asked to pay too.

you have a mortgage? i can't afford one.
you have a car? i can't afford one. well, i own a motorbike but it's off the road as i can't afford to get insurance. you're on €28000? i'm on about €10000 pa for everything. your position sounds pretty rosy to me!

what do you get €28k for doing?

this is not about envy. it is about our nation, i have said that before. we are on the brink. people don't understand that.

nhughes100

DizzyOC wrote: »

you have a mortgage? i can't afford one.
you have a car? i can't afford one. well, i own a motorbike but it's off the road as i can't afford to get insurance. you're on €28000? i'm on about €10000 pa for everything. your position sounds pretty rosy to me!

what do you get €28k for doing?

this is not about envy. it is about our nation, i have said that before. we are on the brink. people don't understand that.

Not knowing the guy but I'd imagine he gets 28 grand for doing a job that he applied for, has qualifications and experience for and did an open interview for that was open to every citizen of the EU to apply for, you on the other hand get 10 grand for nothing. No wonder the country is on the brink.

turgon

Looks like this thread has just descended into the usual fight. Does anyoody know if there are any counter protest happening? In particular around Cork? Or is the ICTU march centered on Dublin alone?

lostexpectation

what is it with people trying to make other people work worse instead of trying to makes theirs better?

gazzer

DizzyOC wrote: »

you have a mortgage? i can't afford one.
you have a car? i can't afford one. well, i own a motorbike but it's off the road as i can't afford to get insurance. you're on €28000? i'm on about €10000 pa for everything. your position sounds pretty rosy to me!

what do you get €28k for doing?

this is not about envy. it is about our nation, i have said that before. we are on the brink. people don't understand that.

Dizzy. He is paying a mortgage. If you were renting a private house/apartment you would get the majority of your rent paid by the state How close would that bring you to the 28000 you are giving out about?

achtungbarry

Sconsey wrote: »

Barry, I agree with most of what you are saying, good post with good points but two comments....


I think that's a general misconception, I have always worked in private sector and never really made a mint (during the boom or before it). Many public servents think that private workers made out like bandits, not true, some did but the majority did not. Works both ways, I used to think PS workers were all overpaid but now realise that some are, most probably are not..

That is a fair point and yes I am aware that not everyone was making a pile of money in the private sector. I accept this completely. I suppose I get annoyed too when certain people assume everyone in the public sector earns a pile of cash. I am specially against the lower paid private sector workers being sacraficed by those at the top who f###ed up.

Sconsey wrote: »

Sorry but I don't buy that, I doubt you are comparing like with like there. I am guessing you went from one job with higher responsibilities/requirements to a lower one.

Again I accept your point but a 13k drop was still a huge decision to make and a huge lifestyle change, and one I don't regret today.

Fair points though.

DizzyOC

nhughes100 wrote: »

Not knowing the guy but I'd imagine he gets 28 grand for doing a job that he applied for, has qualifications and experience for and did an open interview for that was open to every citizen of the EU to apply for, you on the other hand get 10 grand for nothing. No wonder the country is on the brink.

you think i want to be on the dole? i'm third level educated, but it's not lack of effort that has me out of work. you think i want to have time for sitting here arguing with over-paid public sector workers? what i'm wondering is why are so many public servants surfing the web while working? how many here are doing this on their own time?

achtungbarry

DizzyOC wrote: »

you think i want to have time for sitting here arguing with over-paid public sector workers?

Again you make assumptions, not all public service workers are on ridiculously high salaries, I earn 26k.

I want to clear out the fat arse over paid idiots at the top as much as anyone.

By the way, what is your opinion on overpaid private sector workers, the same ones who are cutting your job to save their own fat salaries ?

Trotter

Its awful to see people who lost their jobs. I dont understand in this case why the OP would prefer all of the public service to feel his/her pain too.

There are a lot of untruths floating around, the main one being that public servants all have a free pension. I went to college for 6 years, and now I get 39k and pay 6% pension and 1.5% spouse and children pension. Thats 7.5% before PRSI or PAYE is considered, and add on the new other pension levy of 7%.

I think 6 years of hard work and a few years to get where I am on the payscale is fair enough. I'm willing to pay the levy too.

Im not willing to listen to such rubbish from the OP too that just because one person is wounded by an inept government, we should all suffer the same fate.

There is pain to be shared, and share it we must. I won't resign to share the pain though, just so I can join the dole queues and wave my fist at those who applied for public service positions so that they'd be secure.

The OP was free to apply for my job. The thing is, at the time, most people told me the money was "shoyte".

Its a sad irony. I'll pay the levy, I have no choice. But for that, I want to see people on 6 figure salaries + pay their share too. They won't because FF is their party, and the nation will go under with the FF flag flying over their BMWs.

I also suggest a 50% rate of tax, i.e. a 3rd band, for those earning over 100k.

*Honey*

The reality is that the majority of people who post on these boards are the bog standard, general worker... the one's who seem to be slogging through all this crap, trying to keep their heads above water.

So. Please. For the Love of God. Shut up with this public v private sector crap!!! If you want to march, march in protest against this crap Government we have and make your voice heard, along with everyone elses.

The Government's Divide and Conquer policy is working so well and you are so falling into their trap - it should be ALL workers saying to the Government that we are sick to death of them and we need new thinking, new blood and someone to LEAD us!!!

DizzyOC

it should never be the case where the average public wage is over the private one. they should be equal at best. as far as i'm aware it's currently 47k - 40k in favor of the public sector, with the private figure still dropping like a stone.

i'm not arguing for one verses the other here, i'm arguing for fair benchmarking as the pay-bills are too big for the tax income to cover (income and expenditure, very basic accountancy). i am falling into no ones trap. the public sector is overpaid and the bill needs a haircut. if the government can't meet it's bills this year, then the IMF will be in and 75% of you will loose your jobs in a flash. and there'll be no one else to blame. if i were in your position i'd be very thankful it's all that the minister is asking for. if it's a squeeze, it's only because you have probably over-mortgaged yourself on the strength of your job-security.

what's my opinion on overpaid private sector workers? if you have your own company and make millions, good luck to you! welcome to the private sector! you can get rich, it's allowed. but things can go wrong, and you can loose your money too, private sector workers take those risks. as a private sector employee, you don't know if next friday you will have a job or not, be able to pay your mortgage or not, be able to put food in your childrens mouths or not. in the public sector, you know that whatever happens, you will still get that paycheck at the end of the month. so what you are protesting for is the right to have a €30,000 car over a €25,000 one.

the trade off of working in the public sector for job security is never getting rich. but now we have a situation where public sector workers average the best paid bracket of employees in the country and it needs addressing. fast. otherwise there will be no country to work for! i'm not saying you don't deserve your share in the good times, but i am saying that when the country goes down hill, your pay should go too. you can't just benchmark up you know!

i've had high-times and i've enjoyed them, i've made a lot of money in the past, but unless the country doesn't correct this discrepancy, then the chance for me to do so again will be gone, and if my chance is taken away from me then your jobs won't exist either - can you see what i am getting at? can you see yet?!!! we have a symbiotic relationship! we need each other - that is why i too, don't advocate "us v them" approaches. ireland is deflating, things are getting cheaper, which means your stable pay can go further - that is ridiculous given the health of the nation! ridiculous! so you are losing a bit now through the levy, but will probably wind up equal to your starting point, it's economics!

but to see our country go down the drain partly because you lot couldn't see the bigger picture would make me sick to the pit of my stomach. and seeing you pull teachers and nurses out their jobs, and seeing bus drivers on the streets leaving ordinary people unable to get to work so you can protest over a few quid when the country needs people to knuckle down and get on with it is enraging.

don't forget, we all elected the government into power. they are in now and will be for some time. we have to trust in them to make the best decisions for the country. and if we don't like it, we vote them out next election. that's how it works. not by bully-boy tactics.

it's time to look outside your window now boys and girls, look: there's a storm coming.

ParkRunner

DizzyOC wrote: »

i've had high-times and i've enjoyed them, i've made a lot of money in the past, but unless the country doesn't correct this discrepancy, then the chance for me to do so again will be gone, and if my chance is taken away from me then your jobs won't exist either - can you see what i am getting at?

So you have had a good time in the past and made a lot of money and now that you may not have the chance to make a lot of money and enjoy yourself you want the low paid sectors of society to take the pain, even if they are saddled with huge debt which is the result of purchasing a home?

When you return to earning big money again is it ok for the low paid workers to maybe earn an average wage?

gerry28

Dizzy

The public sector are willing to pay but not alone. Its about fairness nothing else. Don't hit the low paid harder than the well paid and then take virtually nothing of the big earners in the private sector.

Where are the well paid private sector in this recovery (and i'm referring to those still in employment)????

achtungbarry

DizzyOC wrote: »

it should never be the case where the average public wage is over the private one. they should be equal at best.

I do not disagree hence my willingness to take this hit and even another one if needed.

DizzyOC wrote: »

i'm not arguing for one verses the other here.

Yes you are when you refer to me as "you people" and advocate a counter strike against low paid workers.

DizzyOC wrote: »

what's my opinion on overpaid private sector workers? if you have your own company and make millions, good luck to you! welcome to the private sector! you can get rich, it's allowed. but things can go wrong, and you can loose your money too.

They made their choice and I made mine.

DizzyOC wrote: »

that is why i too, don't advocate "us v them" approaches.

Again, advocating a counter strike is what exactly.........?

Again the "you lot" reference.

DizzyOC wrote: »

but to see our country go down the drain partly because you lot couldn't see the bigger picture would make me sick to the pit of my stomach.

I can see the bigger picture. As I've said I am willing to do my bit and more if needed.

And I do resent the rather rude "you lot"

DizzyOC wrote: »

don't forget, we all elected the government into power.

Maybe you did, I didn't.

DizzyOC wrote: »

that's how it works. not by bully-boy tactics.

And a counter strike is not bully-boy tactics ?

DizzyOC wrote: »

it's time to look outside your window now boys and girls, look: there's a storm coming.

So your solution is to add more people to the dole queue ?

Although I would be in favour of rooting out the overpaid idiots at the top who scratch their arses all day long and even those in the lower ranks who are fond of arse scratching. As I said already, they tar me with their brush.

And to repeat what I said earlier, you can march against me if you want, I will still march in support of you.

DizzyOC

my marching will not crash the economy for the day. i'll be standing on the footpath with one sign. i will not be leaving a school or a hospital to be on the streets. i am not campaigning against the lower paid workers at all - that is who the union is sending out because they know anyone who stands against them can get tarred with that brush! you are playing into their hands. you are marching for all the "fat cat arse pickers" (your terms, not mine) in the public service too! yes, you are fighting their cause for them. the unions are playing you, you give them much smaller fees than your bosses do. you think they care about you? begg and co. earn far more than you do.

when you say "low paid" what are we talking about? how young are you? and what job do you do? what will your future be? do you expect to rise through the ranks? gaining increments as time goes by? pay rises every year? i expect you do? the longer you work for the civil service, the brighter your future. that's the way it works and i have no problem with it. but pay has to rise and fall with the tide. if we get out of this mess you know as well as i do that you will win all of these benefits back!

don't you see? this is your own union twisting this! they are playing the "us against them" card! i maintain private and public are symbiotic: we need each other to survive! but only if there is a relative parity. it's simple, but at the minute there is no parity and it's detrimental to the well being of every one. the reason the media attention is on you is because you are the only sector that hasn't suffered - the private sector has taken a massive blow: huge job losses; huge pay cuts; huge hour losses, you name they've been hit with it and it has all contributed to what the government receives in its taxes. thus far less money coming in and getting smaller every day (120 bulmers workers are no longer paying taxes from today, and instead of contributing are now withdrawing from the government kitty). they just can't afford to pay your salaries any more, why can't you see this?

again this is not about the low paid workers - for the love of god, look into the future!

DizzyOC

EF wrote: »

So you have had a good time in the past and made a lot of money and now that you may not have the chance to make a lot of money and enjoy yourself you want the low paid sectors of society to take the pain, even if they are saddled with huge debt which is the result of purchasing a home?
When you return to earning big money again is it ok for the low paid workers to maybe earn an average wage?

maybe you over stretched yourself. is your mortgage more than 3 times your annual salary? when i was growing up that was the yardstick. your mortgage was only three times your annual income. is yours more than that now? be honest!

if it is, you have no one to blame but yourself. if it is then you have put yourself into a position of debt. is your house price now less then when you bought it? are you slipping into negative equity? dear oh dear. you really should have bought a smaller house? what? you couldn't find a house within the three times your salary rate? well then, did you not think that houses were overly inflated? prices were too high? maybe, if you couldn't afford a house, you shouldn't have bought one. maybe this is your fault after all, maybe you got yourself into this problem and are looking for someone else to blame? did the bank hold a gun to your head and order you to sign the mortgage? didn't think so!

achtungbarry

DizzyOC wrote: »

my marching will not crash the economy for the day. i'll be standing on the footpath with one sign. i will not be leaving a school or a hospital to be on the streets. i am not campaigning against the lower paid workers at all - that is who the union is sending out because they know anyone who stands against them can get tarred with that brush! you are playing into their hands. you are marching for all the "fat cat arse pickers" (your terms, not mine) in the public service too! yes, you are fighting their cause for them. the unions are playing you, you give them much smaller fees than your bosses do. you think they care about you? begg and co. earn far more than you do.

when you say "low paid" what are we talking about? how young are you? and what job do you do? what will your future be? do you expect to rise through the ranks? gaining increments as time goes by? pay rises every year? i expect you do? the longer you work for the civil service, the brighter your future. that's the way it works and i have no problem with it. but pay has to rise and fall with the tide. if we get out of this mess you know as well as i do that you will win all of these benefits back!

don't you see? this is your own union twisting this! they are playing the "us against them" card! i maintain private and public are symbiotic: we need each other to survive! but only if there is a relative parity. it's simple, but at the minute there is no parity and it's detrimental to the well being of every one. the reason the media attention is on you is because you are the only sector that hasn't suffered - the private sector has taken a massive blow: huge job losses; huge pay cuts; huge hour losses, you name they've been hit with it and it has all contributed to what the government receives in its taxes. thus far less money coming in and getting smaller every day (120 bulmers workers are no longer paying taxes from today, and instead of contributing are now withdrawing from the government kitty). they just can't afford to pay your salaries any more, why can't you see this?

again this is not about the low paid workers - for the love of god, look into the future!

Firstly, i am not a member of any union and I will not be protesting as I am prepared to take the hit.

Secondly, what is your solution to the mess ? It's easy to moan.

I gave my ideas for reform of the public sector and will give more when I have time.

What would you do ?

achtungbarry

DizzyOC wrote: »

maybe you over stretched yourself. is your mortgage more than 3 times your annual salary? when i was growing up that was the yardstick. your mortgage was only three times your annual income. is yours more than that now? be honest!

if it is, you have no one to blame but yourself. if it is then you have put yourself into a position of debt. is your house price now less then when you bought it? are you slipping into negative equity? dear oh dear. you really should have bought a smaller house? what? you couldn't find a house within the three times your salary rate? well then, did you not think that houses were overly inflated? prices were too high? maybe, if you couldn't afford a house, you shouldn't have bought one. maybe this is your fault after all, maybe you got yourself into this problem and are looking for someone else to blame? did the bank hold a gun to your head and order you to sign the mortgage? didn't think so!

Just a quick point. you may find that people are little more receptive to your arguments without the attitude and sarcasm. I think it's time to stop feeding the troll.

And as for "looking for someone else to blame?"........... glass houses and all that.

Goodbye

DizzyOC

achtungbarry wrote: »

Firstly, i am not a member of any union and I will not be protesting as I am prepared to take the hit.
Secondly, what is your solution to the mess ? It's easy to moan.
I gave my ideas for reform of the public sector and will give more when I have time.
What would you do ?

-i'd enforce the levy for a start.
-then i'd start again - at the top. 25% off the top public earners salaries, politicians et al.
-ridiculous expenses and junior ministers would take a hike.
-i'd cut the number of seats in the dail.
-i'd operate on the incomes of doctors, ordering transparency and an end to private practice on public property.
-i'd lay off 50% of middle management in the service (and don't tell me it couldn't be done!)
-i'd introduce a 48% tax band for earners over 100k (yes i'd have a go at the private sector too - currently i'm not one of them) and nudge the other bands up a percent or two.
-legally i wouldn't be able to name the golden circle members, but i'd ensure they'd pay their debts.
-i'd rate motor tax proportionally to the size of the engine in the vehicle...

and so on. if i had more energy i'd give you more...

givyjoe81

gerry28 wrote: »

DizzyOC

You mentioned earlier about survivng on €204 per week. I'm a public servant on €28000 pa. After I pay my mortgage, car loan and maintanence payments I am left with less than €200 per week for bills, food, insurances, petrol, clothes and all other unforseen expenses. I can't afford to lose another €30 a week on this levy. This is the reality for many low paid public servants.
Of course its disastrous for the many that are now unemployed. But what about those in the private sector who are still in employment. Why can't they be asked to pay too.

Because their pension payments are costing the government an arm and a leg at a time when they cant pay for it! Guys everyone here really needs to be aware of how serious any IMF involvement would be. You risk your jobs in the future by going on strike against this levy, at the fat cats wages at this stage are irrelvant, its the sacrifice by the many little guys that will bail out the country, dont go on strike and cripple the country and make things work. How about you guys take a step in the right direction and accept the cuts and we all protest, on our time off! together!!

If the IMF gets involved if and when we go bust, mandatory public service cuts could very well be part of the bail out. And the IMF were i believe already mentioned last week i think.

achtungbarry

DizzyOC wrote: »

-i'd enforce the levy for a start.
-then i'd start again - at the top. 25% off the top public earners salaries, politicians et al.
-ridiculous expenses and junior ministers would take a hike.
-i'd cut the number of seats in the dail.
-i'd operate on the incomes of doctors, ordering transparency and an end to private practice on public property.
-i'd lay off 50% of middle management in the service (and don't tell me it couldn't be done!)
-i'd introduce a 48% tax band for earners over 100k (yes i'd have a go at the private sector too - currently i'm not one of them) and nudge the other bands up a percent or two.
-legally i wouldn't be able to name the golden circle members, but i'd ensure they'd pay their debts.
-i'd rate motor tax proportionally to the size of the engine in the vehicle...

and so on. if i had more energy i'd give you more...

I agree with everything above plus abolishing the senate as well as making public service workers more sackable. I do a good the job so I have nothing to fear but there are others......

I would also have strung up any politician who even attempts to leave this country on Paddy's day.

We agree on almost everything so why do you feel the need to march against me and refer to me as "you lot" and tell me I can't see the big picture.

Trotter

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Because their pension payments are costing the government an arm and a leg at a time when they cant pay for it!

Thats questionable. The money that the government takes in from public servants' existing pension contributions, exceeds the amount paid out to retired public servants. So, no, its not costing the government an arm and a leg.

ParkRunner

DizzyOC wrote: »

maybe you over stretched yourself. is your mortgage more than 3 times your annual salary? when i was growing up that was the yardstick. your mortgage was only three times your annual income. is yours more than that now? be honest!

if it is, you have no one to blame but yourself. if it is then you have put yourself into a position of debt. is your house price now less then when you bought it? are you slipping into negative equity? dear oh dear. you really should have bought a smaller house? what? you couldn't find a house within the three times your salary rate? well then, did you not think that houses were overly inflated? prices were too high? maybe, if you couldn't afford a house, you shouldn't have bought one. maybe this is your fault after all, maybe you got yourself into this problem and are looking for someone else to blame? did the bank hold a gun to your head and order you to sign the mortgage? didn't think so!

Eh I dont have a house
Im 27 years old still living at home with the parents because I refused to put myself into such a massive debt. Im saving hard though and ready to buy. If you had good times during the celtic tiger did you not put a bit aside to get you through a time when things weren't so good or have you squandered it all?