Alterantives to shrugs?

floggg

I'm looking for an alternative to BB shrugs - they've been a constant in my programmes for the last few months, and looking to change it up.

I've seen a couple of the big eastern european types in my gym doing rear shrugs on smith machines, but i tried it last week and found it seemed to put a strain on my lower back. Would anybody recommend this as an alternative?

Would upright rows be any use?

Also, I'm currently shrugging the same as i'm squatting - 75kg. Should i be aable to shrug this much if my squat is that low? Might i be doing it wrong (although i didn't think there was too much scope to go wrong on shrugs!)

rubadub

I have heard people advise against upright rows, think it can do the joints harm.

Have you tried other forms of shrugs? I used to do them with a tricep bar by my side.

Just one arm at a time, you hold it in the middle so the weight drops down lower, the centre of gravity being lower means it is easier to balance. And it is easier to assist it up with your free hand than a dumbbell would be. Also it does not hit against your body like a dumbbell might.

I think you should be able to shrug more than you squat, I think I was shrugging 75kg with one arm sometimes. You might be going up higher than I did. You can also use the free hand to hold onto something for balance.

floggg

rubadub wrote: »

I have heard people advise against upright rows, think it can do the joints harm.

Have you tried other forms of shrugs? I used to do them with a tricep bar by my side.

Just one arm at a time, you hold it in the middle so the weight drops down lower, the centre of gravity being lower means it is easier to balance. And it is easier to assist it up with your free hand than a dumbbell would be. Also it does not hit against your body like a dumbbell might.

I think you should be able to shrug more than you squat, I think I was shrugging 75kg with one arm sometimes. You might be going up higher than I did. You can also use the free hand to hold onto something for balance.

Not fully sure if i'm following you. Do you mean holding it clean off the ground, perpindicular to your body with plates on each side?

If not, don't suppose you have any links to videos/pics of what your thinking of?

rubadub wrote: »

And it is easier to assist it up with your free hand than a dumbbell would be. Also it does not hit against your body like a dumbbell might.

I tried with it with a DB in each hand, but don't think i should be lifting two 30kg plus DB's - i feel a twinge in my lower back/side lifting them on and off the rack. i might try it one handed though as an alternative either.

Brian?

You could try behind the back barbell shrugs. Hack squat the bar up, do a set of shrugs and then control it down as if finishing a hack squat.

I've been doing this for a while and I find it helps me maintain better posture than normal BB shrugs.

cardio,shoot me

the smith machine behind the bar shrug is meant to take pressure of your neck or something i dont know scooby explains it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnPOuwt-tY8&feature=PlayList&p=EF860DB062C8B5BB&playnext=1&index=3

RoosterIllusion

rubadub wrote: »

Trap bar?

Never heard of a tricep bar.

delllat

RoosterIllusion wrote: »

Trap bar?

Never heard of a tricep bar.

thats a tricep bar in the picture !

thats what york call it anyway.they sell it i argos for about 20quid,comes in set with ez curl bar

Dubdude

RoosterIllusion wrote: »

Trap bar?

Never heard of a tricep bar.

I agree with delllat its a tricep bar this is a shrug/trap bar
http://www.irish-lifting.com/product_info_equipment.php?cPath=1_9&products_id=235

WolfForager

I has a tricep bar, never use it though.. Just prefer to use my E-Z.

Reyman

rubadub wrote: »

I have heard people advise against upright rows, think it can do the joints harm.

Upright rows (narrow grip) are known to cause rotator cuff/shoulder impingement problems over time

unreggd

Reyman wrote: »

Upright rows (narrow grip) are known to cause rotator cuff/shoulder impingement problems over time

+1

Also, they make you tense your top lip and look pretty stupid!

I do Dumbell shrugs myself

There's some alternative Trap exercises here

Transform

Traps - first off you better be deadlifting as just doing shrugs any aul way is not going to do much for your traps.

Options -

1. Seated cable/machine row shrugs - get into position and with arms fully straight pull shoulder blades together.

2. Overhead shrug - lift a barbell overhead and with arms full straight shrug shoulders up towards ceiling.

3. incline shrugs - lying face down on a bench at 60-degree angle do shrugs moving shoulders backwards and upwards.

4. Thick bar shrugs - do shrugs in power rack holding on to the collars of the bars.

5. Farmers walk - walk 20-30secs one way turn around and walk back. Weight should be what you can one arm row in each hand

Finally, worst shrug - dumbbells and shrugging then rolling shoulders backwards/forwards - complete no no

I really need to get with this video stuff and post some examples

rubadub

floggg wrote: »

Not fully sure if i'm following you. Do you mean holding it clean off the ground, perpindicular to your body with plates on each side?

If not, don't suppose you have any links to videos/pics of what your thinking of?

No real pics of people doing what I do, look at this picture.


This is loaded on both sides, now if you go to pick that up with one arm there is really only one place to grab it. Normally you are meant to hold it by the 2 handles with both arms. With one hand you grab it on the bar between those 2 handles. Now it will drop down by your side, plates in front of you, and behind you, the bar flush by your side. It has a lower centre of gravity since it swings down. If you tried to hold a barbell like this it would be very hard to balance.

Brian?

Transform wrote: »

Traps - first off you better be deadlifting as just doing shrugs any aul way is not going to do much for your traps.

Would would you make of doing BB shrugs as a superset for deadlifting or hack squats? I've never tried it but it seems logical enough, lock out the last rep of the DL and shrug, same goes for hack squats.

Transform wrote: »

Options -

1. Seated cable/machine row shrugs - get into position and with arms fully straight pull shoulder blades together.

2. Overhead shrug - lift a barbell overhead and with arms full straight shrug shoulders up towards ceiling.

3. incline shrugs - lying face down on a bench at 60-degree angle do shrugs moving shoulders backwards and upwards.

4. Thick bar shrugs - do shrugs in power rack holding on to the collars of the bars.

5. Farmers walk - walk 20-30secs one way turn around and walk back. Weight should be what you can one arm row in each hand

Finally, worst shrug - dumbbells and shrugging then rolling shoulders backwards/forwards - complete no no

I really need to get with this video stuff and post some examples

Are you saying that all of these are better than DB or BB shrugs?

As for the rolly shoulder one, the amount of people I see doing it is unreal, its a mystery to me why. I have never once seen or heard it reccomended.

Transform

Not better just variety.

If your able to do ANYTHING involving holding after deadlifts then your not pulling enough.

I very rarely do shrugs as i do not see the need if your doing deadlifts, cleans, chins etc No harm in putting them in like grip work but should not be considered a core part of the program and i almost NEVER put it in for clients as most have traps that are too tight from sitting at desks etc and need more scap retraction work.

unreggd

Transform wrote: »

3. incline shrugs - lying face down on a bench at 60-degree angle do shrugs moving shoulders backwards and upwards

With a Barbel or Dumbbells?

Finally, worst shrug - dumbbells

Why so?

Esp when you recommend upward rows, which are meant to be terrible for your shoulders

Brian?

unreggd wrote: »

With a Barbel or Dumbbells?


Why so?

Esp when you recommend upward rows, which are meant to be terrible for your shoulders

Its UPRIGHT rows that are bad for your shoulders.

Brian?

Transform wrote: »

Not better just variety.

If your able to do ANYTHING involving holding after deadlifts then your not pulling enough.

I very rarely do shrugs as i do not see the need if your doing deadlifts, cleans, chins etc No harm in putting them in like grip work but should not be considered a core part of the program and i almost NEVER put it in for clients as most have traps that are too tight from sitting at desks etc and need more scap retraction work.

Fair enough, I probably wouldn't be able to shrug after deadlifting. I just try and fit any isolation work I do around the compounds as I am not a big fan of most isolation excercises.

On my pull day, I do DL's, stiff leg DL's, Rows, lat pulldowns, chins, shrugs and bicep curls. I do the shrugs and curls one after the other with no rest as the last thing I do, I am looking for somewhere else to stick them in so I am not taking up time with them. Possibly in between sets of stiff leg DL's?

Transform

unreggd wrote: »

With a Barbel or Dumbbells?


Why so?

Esp when you recommend upward rows, which are meant to be terrible for your shoulders

dumbbells

Transform

briankeating wrote: »

Fair enough, I probably wouldn't be able to shrug after deadlifting. I just try and fit any isolation work I do around the compounds as I am not a big fan of most isolation excercises.

On my pull day, I do DL's, stiff leg DL's, Rows, lat pulldowns, chins, shrugs and bicep curls. I do the shrugs and curls one after the other with no rest as the last thing I do, I am looking for somewhere else to stick them in so I am not taking up time with them. Possibly in between sets of stiff leg DL's?

I would change that program after about 6 weeks as there is sooo much grip work that it will limit the back exercises over time.

Do not see the need for chins AND lat pull down or deadlifts AND straight leg deadlifts on the same day - whats the other day like, how many days per week do you train and current weight on those lifts?

maxxie

A narrow grip upright row specifically targets the trapezius!
This would make it a suitable alternative to shrugs.
It is not harmful to the joints.
Dont bring elbows up past shoulder level, this is were anterior deltoid will take over the movement!

floggg

maxxie wrote: »

A narrow grip upright row specifically targets the trapezius!
This would make it a suitable alternative to shrugs.
It is not harmful to the joints.
Dont bring elbows up past shoulder level, this is were anterior deltoid will take over the movement!

Anything to support this? It doesn't seem too popular with the others.

Transform wrote: »

Not better just variety.

If your able to do ANYTHING involving holding after deadlifts then your not pulling enough.

I very rarely do shrugs as i do not see the need if your doing deadlifts, cleans, chins etc No harm in putting them in like grip work but should not be considered a core part of the program and i almost NEVER put it in for clients as most have traps that are too tight from sitting at desks etc and need more scap retraction work.

I think i'll throw in one of your suggestions, or else rubdub's. As you say, i'm just looking for a change up. Traps aren't a priority for me as such.

Don't do deadlift and shrugs on same day. Am on a three day split - chest/tri's, legs/posterior chain and then back/shoulders/bi's.

Brian?

Transform wrote: »

I would change that program after about 6 weeks as there is sooo much grip work that it will limit the back exercises over time.

Do not see the need for chins AND lat pull down or deadlifts AND straight leg deadlifts on the same day - whats the other day like, how many days per week do you train and current weight on those lifts?

The other day is squats 90kg 5x5, DB bench 2x25kg 5x5 and rest 3x8 DB incline bench, military press, step ups, calf raises, skull crushers.

I try to do push,pull 2 days off. It suits my schedule better to work out 2 days in a row as I do shift work.

Deadlift is 5x5 110 Kg, stiff leg DL is 80( i think). The reason for lat pulldown and chinups is that I can only do 5 chinups in a set right now, weak I know but I'm currently 101kg and 16%bf

prodigal_son

I do upright rows and never have a problem, I think the main problem people have with them is using the wrong muscles in the lift and lift too heavy.

I put my hands at least 5 inches apart, and i lift with my shoulders/back not my arms or my traps, my arms just hold the weight, and no pressure is on my joints.

Never had any problems at all with them.

I seen people do them with their hands touching, and i tried that, I was able to lift heavier (more muscles being used?), but the risk of hurting myself went up.

I do them all the time, 2 sets a week maybe..

But to put it in perspective, I can shrug way more than i can curl, But i at the moment upright row a little higher than my curl weight. I can do sets of 12 at that weight..

Reyman

prodigal_son wrote: »

I do upright rows and never have a problem, I think the main problem people have with them is using the wrong muscles in the lift and lift too heavy.

..

It's discussed here: www.bodybuilding.fitness.com/exercises/4262-wide-grip-upright-rows.html

and here: www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Safety.html#anchor64967

The consensus is that it's a risky exercise although a wide grip might offer less chance of long term injury

brianthebard

prodigal_son wrote: »

But to put it in perspective, I can shrug way more than i can curl, But i at the moment upright row a little higher than my curl weight. I can do sets of 12 at that weight..

Surely that's not surprising though, you only move a few inches up and down with a shrug, you curl in a much wider arc and much further...

prodigal_son

Reyman wrote: »

It's discussed here: www.bodybuilding.fitness.com/exercises/4262-wide-grip-upright-rows.html

and here: www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Safety.html#anchor64967

The consensus is that it's a risky exercise although a wide grip might offer less chance of long term injury

I think all weight lifting is risky enough, If you use bad form and too much weight.

I personally dont think there should be a blanket ban on upright rows, just that people should be told to focus on technique rather than weight.

Thats just my opinion, But i wouldn't recommend an upright row for a shrug replacement anyway.

podge57

i dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but hang cleans, and olympic lifts in general are great for traps

the majority of oly lifter have huge traps

also, heres tips from a man who knows his traps

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/the_yoke.htm

prodigal_son

brianthebard wrote: »

Surely that's not surprising though, you only move a few inches up and down with a shrug, you curl in a much wider arc and much further...

No its not surprising, What is surprising is people thinking that they can upright row 60+kg when they can only curl 20kg tho.

For me personally, It was do either 60+kg with bad form, and do 12 reps, or do 12 reps at 45kg with the right form and feel the burn in the right muscles, very little strain (less than a curl for me) but still feel like i had driven the muscles to failure.

But anyway, going off topic a fair bit, so ill leave it there as my opinion..

itsallaboutheL

podge57 wrote: »

i dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but hang cleans, and olympic lifts in general are great for traps

+1 glad someone fluckin said it

Hang Snatches are the biz

cardio,shoot me

im sorry prodigal_son i dont see why u bring bicep curls into this conversation, the movement is so different i see no corolation between the two exercises and the two weights

kevpants

podge57 wrote: »

i dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but hang cleans, and olympic lifts in general are great for traps

the majority of oly lifter have huge traps

also, heres tips from a man who knows his traps

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/the_yoke.htm

+1

And if you have no Oly technique, seated dumbell power cleans are the business for traps.

I've never seen anyone doing an upright row who had traps I'd admire. This says it all