Class reps council (split from "official bitch about..." thread)

Funkstard

Class Reps council...dislike the cliqueyness of it all.

bluedolphin

Funkstard wrote: »

Class Reps council...dislike the cliqueyness of it all.

explain... i'll bring your concern to the exec on your behalf if you want.

klong

bluedolphin wrote: »

explain... i'll bring your concern to the exec on your behalf if you want.

I think I understand where Funkstard is coming from. I was a regular attender at CRC last year, wasn't able to make any meetings last semester and this semester...don't know if I'll go. As a final year student I think its a bit pointless, and my class were never interested in the subjects raised at CRC when I emailed them updates (bar once, regarding anonymous marking, and that was just one student).

I don't think its an intentional state of affairs. Maybe its because (from my experience) it was always the same people speaking time after time. Perhaps its more an air of cliqueness (or however you spell it!) than it being an actual clique. People who are truly interested in SU politics will go to everything, protests, petitions, whatever. But the vast majority of class reps are there for the certificate and the hoody. Last year, the biggest attendances were (1) the night the hoodies were given out, and (2) when the certificates were being distributed.

(I also think this would be an interesting topic of its own- any chance mods?)

Funkstard

Not something that needs to be raised with the exec.

Just don't like seeing certain officers thinking they should be able to speak before others because of their position, happened a few times last night. That whole 'in' corner of the room (don't take that the wrong way, just an easy way to label what group I'm on about) certainly gives off an air of cliqueyness, and I'd imagine certainly prevents more casual attendants from voicing their opinions or participating more for fear of being ridiculed, or at the very least subject to eyes-raised-to-heaven-ness that also happened last night.

sceptre

klong wrote: »

Last year, the biggest attendances were (1) the night the hoodies were given out, and (2) when the certificates were being distributed.

You're right and you're wrong on the latter one. There was a crowd there at the cert handing-out but the meeting after wasn't quorate. So the two or three quorate meetings (all at the start of the year) were better attended. On the whole, I reckon you're totally correct though.

(I also think this would be an interesting topic of its own- any chance mods?)

Sure, let's split it off. Worthy of a chat in general, whether it gets specific or not.

Thread split. Went for the uncreative title of "Class reps council" I'm afraid.

ergonomics

That whole 'in' corner of the room (don't take that the wrong way, just an easy way to label what group I'm on about) certainly gives off an air of cliqueyness,

I can see where you're coming from, but this is the way I see it. The people who sit in the corner are there for a reason. They are the Sabbatical Officers,the Faculty Officers, the 1st Year Rep and Clubs & Socs Officers. The reason they all sit in that corner is because they have to get up regularly to speak, make reports, and answer questions from Council. It would make the whole thing more awkward if they were scattered all over the place as, when they needed to talk, they would be clambering over other people to get down to the front. It would waste time and would be disruptive to Councik. I also think it makes it easier for Class Reps to approach an officer after Council as they know where they will be sitting. If they were seated willy-nilly it might be harder to recognise them and find them.

Just don't like seeing certain officers thinking they should be able to speak before others because of their position, happened a few times last night.

I do agree with you on this point. Last night, when it came to Officer Reports, people were just standing up to speak when they felt like it. There is a set order for giving reports and for whatever reason it wasn't followed last night.

I'd imagine certainly prevents more casual attendants from voicing their opinions or participating more for fear of being ridiculed, or at the very least subject to eyes-raised-to-heaven-ness that also happened last night.

I don't think anyone has ever been ridiculed in my experience at CRC. Last night someone brought up the issue of Fees and in response a number of people groaned and comments were made about 'opening a can of worms'. The Fees issue has been beaten to death at Class Reps and it wasn't just the 'cliquey' people who rolled their eyes when it was brought up again, all of Council felt the same way. Every week Fees is brought up and every week it just goes around in circles. The 'eyes-raised-to-heaven-ness' was a collective response from the group that no one wanted to go over that topic again.

klong

sceptre wrote: »

You're right and you're wrong on the latter one. There was a crowd there at the cert handing-out but the meeting after wasn't quorate. So the two or three quorate meetings (all at the start of the year) were better attended. On the whole, I reckon you're totally correct though.


Sure, let's split it off. Worthy of a chat in general, whether it gets specific or not.

Thread split. Went for the uncreative title of "Class reps council" I'm afraid.

My memory is a bit fuzzy so I take you're word for it

Thanks for the new thread.

From having a quick browse on the TCD forum they seem to have problems regards class reps. Don't know if they have a council though.
If I may float a kite here...is CRC really necessary? From my experience last year, (1) same people speak the vast majority of the time, (2) SU officers were busy with other things and usually 2 or 3 would be missing, (3) CRC membership is simply used to beef up a CV. I'm sure there are others. I think the vast majority of students see it as some mythical, far-off being. Class reps don't attend, so classmates don't know what happens. People don't know what goes on, SU suffers as a result. Vicious circle? Perhaps An Focal could have a regular column with CRC news?

I'm sure I could elaborate but I'd like to hear some responses first...:cool:

DJCR

Righto.... I'm gonna comment one piece at a time like Ergo!:D:D:D

klong wrote: »

My class were never interested in the subjects raised at CRC when I emailed them updates (bar once, regarding anonymous marking, and that was just one student).

While this may be true for a few classes this is not always true... think, Nurses and Teachers. My own class discussed the issue of extra curricular activities being recognised on there degree.
In my opinion the issues have to be brought to ground level... ie. how will this decision affect the class. Fees being an extreemly obvious example... if you stood up at the front of your class and asked "who has a spare 6 Grand to finnish college, I guarentee you would se a small number of hands go up.

klong wrote: »

Maybe its because (from my experience) it was always the same people speaking time after time.

I'm delighted to say that I would have agreed with you a month ago. However, after Class Reps Training there were alot more speakers at the last CRC.

It may also seem like the same people are talking all the time but at the end of the day (ie. the "in" corner) they are the ones who have the information to answer the questions... more on that later.

Funkstard wrote: »

That whole 'in' corner of the room certainly gives off an air of cliqueyness.

I'm sure that this isn't intentional but remember that they do work with each other from 9 - 5.... sometimes more. They discuss all these issues a few times a week so their confidence on speaking on the issues is well founded..... maybe this is what gives off the air of cliqueyness + isn't a unified exec a good thing?:D:D:D

Funkstard wrote: »

I'd imagine certainly prevents more casual attendants from voicing their opinions or participating more for fear of being ridiculed

Just reinforcing what Ergo said .... I've been at Council for 3 years now and I've never seen it happen.

ergonomics wrote: »

I do agree with you on this point. Last night, when it came to Officer Reports, people were just standing up to speak when they felt like it. There is a set order for giving reports and for whatever reason it wasn't followed last night.

Ya, true, that was my bad .... I got a little mixed up :o:o:o

klong wrote: »

From having a quick browse on the TCD forum they seem to have problems regards class reps. Don't know if they have a council though.
If I may float a kite here...is CRC really necessary?

Absolutely, both as representatives to their class and Constitutionally as class reps hold all the power. For more info on this, ask and I'll send you the relevant info.

klong wrote: »

(2) SU officers were busy with other things and usually 2 or 3 would be missing

I honestly think there has been good attendance from the Officers this year!! Above 90% I'd say!

klong wrote: »

(3) Perhaps An Focal could have a regular column with CRC news?

Thats a great idea!!! Print a smaller version of the minutes!!:cool::cool::cool:

Hope this helps a little........

klong

What would you say about Class Reps simply there as a way of beefing up a CV?
I'm sure it looks good and all, but if asked about it, I don't think many people would be able to give an honest answer if questioned about it in an interview!

"Perhaps An Focal could have a regular column with CRC news?"
As we all know, bluedolphin is always screaming out for content. Surely the CRC secretary could do a small piece, 150-200 words for each An Focal?

As for my kite flying...as DJCR says, class reps hold all the power. Its a shame then that so few class reps show up (I include myself here). So few class reps = a lot less power. I was never able to make the training weekends as there was something or other else I had to attend. Could it be made compulsory? Tie it in with getting the hoody and cert at the end of the year?

DJCR

klong wrote: »

As for my kite flying...as DJCR says, class reps hold all the power. Its a shame then that so few class reps show up (I include myself here). So few class reps = a lot less power.

Well .... being pedantic that isn't actually true.......... Class Reps still hold the power, its just that there will be a lack of quality of decision due to a deficiancy in discussion and a lack of other ideas.

Well it all comes down to it ...... Class Reps Rule!!:D:D:D:D

ergonomics

klong wrote: »

Could it be made compulsory? Tie it in with getting the hoody and cert at the end of the year?

Class Reps who had missed two or more meetings without apologies were warned this week that if they didn't attend Council on Tuesday they would be deemed resigned which means no hoody and no cert. AFAIK, but I'm probably wrong cause the decision keeps getting changed, any Rep who had missed two meetings but came on Tuesday will be deemed resigned if they miss even one additional meeting. So CRC attendance is compulsory, it just wasn't enforced until this week.

As far an article in the paper, it would definitely be a good idea as it would make the whole Council process much more accessible to the student body. Maybe you should raise the issue during the next CRC :P

klong

ergonomics wrote: »

Class Reps who had missed two or more meetings without apologies were warned this week that if they didn't attend Council on Tuesday they would be deemed resigned which means no hoody and no cert. AFAIK, but I'm probably wrong cause the decision keeps getting changed, any Rep who had missed two meetings but came on Tuesday will be deemed resigned if they miss even one additional meeting. So CRC attendance is compulsory, it just wasn't enforced until this week.

As far an article in the paper, it would definitely be a good idea as it would make the whole Council process much more accessible to the student body. Maybe you should raise the issue during the next CRC :P

I wouldn't have known that unless you mentioned it here. Perhaps a general email? Ok, that might have been done already...

How and ever, while good in practice it is a little ridiculous. Miss all meetings this year, turn up on Tuesday but miss even one more and you're kicked off? :eek: So I may as well not bother showing up this semester at this rate.

ergonomics

So you think Class Reps attendance should be made compulsory, but you don't agree with people being deemed resigned if they don't turn up?

What do you suggest?

klong

ergonomics wrote: »

So you think Class Reps attendance should be made compulsory, but you don't agree with people being deemed resigned if they don't turn up?

What do you suggest?

This is part of the problem with message boards, can't seem to get my point across properly!

Yes, I think Class Reps attendance should be promoted. What I would suggest is perhaps a compulsory 75% attendance at meetings for each rep, following which they would be eligible for the hoody and cert. The problem I have for the "solution" there seems to be now is that, if people miss one meeting, for whatever reason, they're gone. Was there a communication about this new plan sent out?

People might be deemed resigned if they don't show up- but what is there to stop them going for re-election once again? (One reason why I wouldn't be running for an SU position- don't know the ins and outs of everything!)

Polar Ice

Class reps:

Relationship status: It's Complicated.

Group Type: This is a closed group. Members must be invited or approved by an admin.

DJCR

Polar Ice wrote: »

Class reps:
Relationship status: It's Complicated.

Honestly its not complicatd at all.

If you can't make a meeting send apologies.... you don't even have to give a reason and you won't be deemed resigned if you miss all the meetings (as is the case with co-op students).
Its just courtesy...... same as any company that you will work in!

Polar Ice wrote: »

Group Type: This is a closed group. Members must be invited or approved by an admin.

Closed group: nope.... its open to anyone..... even if your not a class rep you can go to CRC.

Members must be invited: True...... everyones invited though as you are a member of the ULSU as soon as you become a student in UL + as I've already said ... the more the better.

Approved by admin: Also true ...... Admin in this case being your class that your elected from.

Honestly all it takes to become a Class Rep..... is to show some interest!! Problem is, not a lot of new people show interest, and as it was earlier stated ... those who have previously shown intrest tend to carry on in their roles throughout their 4 years.... generally because they are doing a good job... if ot their class would elect another!!!

The ULSU is open to everyone...... I think a serious PR job needs to be done as there is obvious hostility towards Class Reps and the organisation in general.

It is good to here other peoples views on the subject ......... maybe, this issue should be highlighted further as was previously asked!!

Its just a shame to here that people feel they can't get involved which is exactly what the ULSU is all about!!

(General Question to everyone) How do you feel we can change this?

klong

I think the general issue of apathy is worthy of serious research by the SU. I've been in UL now 6 years and I don't remember it NOT being an issue, eg. there was an anti-fees march semester 1 07 attended by all the Limerick 3rd level institutions; UL had the smallest turnout. I also think you'll get far more useful replies here than on the ULSU forums (if they still work). Reason being, there is a larger representation of the UL student population here than on the ULSU forums, in my experience of it.

In relation to CRC and apologies...easily open to abuse. I haven't been to CRC all year, for a number of reasons. All I have to do from now on is send apologies each week and I won't get sacked? Secondly, attendance from now on is considered vital if people want to get their certificates. What's to stop people walkting up to the sign-in, submitting their name, and then walking out again? Alternatively, reps could sign in, walk inside and open a book for 45 minutes or whatever. The point here is that there is no requirement for reps to participate. In the UK, there is a website called They Work For You (www.theyworkforyou.com) Constitutients can research the work of their MPs, MLAs, whatever, see how many times they spoke, on what issues, etc. Is it a bit extreme to suggest something similar for ULSU?

edit: I think something that is weakening the SU is letting people appear on a variety of committees, wearing a number of hats so to speak. What happens is that experience is gathered together in a relatively small group of people. If you restrict this ability, then more people can gain experience of the workings of the institution. Of course the thing is, if people don't want to sit on committees etc, then what do you do? Perhaps have different certs for class reps who participate more?

edit: Do you really think, DJCR, that there is "hostility" towards ULSU and class reps? From reading other message boards (eg UCC and UCD) ULSU doesn't get the hostility their SUs get- perhaps its because ULSU is less obviously political which, in my opinion, is a good thing- concentrate on student issues and student issues alone.

DJCR

klong wrote: »

In relation to CRC and apologies...easily open to abuse.

Yes it is, but we are a student Union ..... not the Dail, not the european parliment..... what do you want us to do .... goosestep class reps into CRC!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

klong wrote: »

I haven't been to CRC all year, for a number of reasons. All I have to do from now on is send apologies each week and I won't get sacked?

Nope your already "Sacked".... sorry:(:(:(

klong wrote: »

What's to stop people walkting up to the sign-in, submitting their name, and then walking out again? Alternatively, reps could sign in, walk inside and open a book for 45 minutes or whatever. The point here is that there is no requirement for reps to participate.

Nothing ..... I suppose we could call in the ULSU MP (if it existed) to stop people leaving and force them to speak !!!:D:D

klong wrote: »

In the UK, there is a website called They Work For You (www.theyworkforyou.com) Constitutients can research the work of their MPs, MLAs, whatever, see how many times they spoke, on what issues, etc. Is it a bit extreme to suggest something similar for ULSU?

A sort of "name and shame" the class reps who say nothing system...... remember that they are volunteers elected by their class...... they are also individual students...... not backed by major political parties.... they have to got to college to + blah blah blah .... not paid etc etc etc

klong wrote: »

Do you really think, DJCR, that there is "hostility" towards ULSU and class reps? From reading other message boards (eg UCC and UCD) ULSU doesn't get the hostility their SUs get - perhaps its because ULSU is less obviously political which, in my opinion, is a good thing - concentrate on student issues and student issues alone.

"Hostility" was the wrong word but i think you are being pedantic. The others to which are USI led Su's therfore they are assholes (ish...... cause we are effectively all on the same team)!!!

klong

Hey now! That was a reply worthy of Margaret Thatcher ("Out...Out...Out")!

The point I'm trying to make...CRC isn't working insofar as people don't know what it does. What would you suggest to make things better?

I think you need to explain the "hostility" comment...wasn't trying to be pedantic (a label I gave to CRC the first few times I showed up, by the way)

sceptre

DJCR wrote: »

The others to which are USI led Su's therfore they are assholes (ish...... cause we are effectively all on the same team)!!!

They're not USI-led SUs. They're SUs that happen to be members of USI. I'm not a fan of USI, never have been, but the other part of the comment I've quoted is just asinine.

boogyboogy

well I know that the majority of our class want nothing to do with the class reps as they are a pain in the @rse and come across as the biggest a$$ kissers around....in fact I hear they wipe thier noses with toilet paper:pac:, Haven't organised a class party in years either dosn't help their popularity

klong

boogyboogy wrote: »

well I know that the majority of our class want nothing to do with the class reps as they are a pain in the @rse and come across as the biggest a$$ kissers around....in fact I hear they wipe thier noses with toilet paper:pac:, Haven't organised a class party in years either dosn't help their popularity

Why should the class reps have to organise a class party? Business class...surely some of ye can use your entrepreneurial skills, organise one, and make a profit? :cool:

bluedolphin

I will get around to responding to this over the weekend as a current sabbat... Haven't been dodging this thread, just been incredibly busy this week.

Aoife (Communications Officer)

Polar Ice

klong wrote: »

Why should the class reps have to organise a class party? Business class...surely some of ye can use your entrepreneurial skills, organise one, and make a profit? :cool:

The problem is a lot of students think class reps=organise hoodies and parties.

@DJCR
Great job on expanding on the points I didn't make
Now if only we could compare CRC to another social network

dyl10

That Socialist Youth must be the biggest clique of retards I've ever seen.

kaimera

bluedolphin wrote: »

I will get around to responding to this over the weekend as a current sabbat... Haven't been dodging this thread, just been incredibly busy this week.

Aoife (Communications Officer)

busy? :pac:

bluedolphin

kaimera wrote: »

busy? :pac:

Yes. It was a putting-the-paper-together week, plus doing all the prep work for the UGM next week too. :pac:

DJCR

sceptre wrote: »

asinine

OK ... nice word... but in the nature of the post I made I was being a bit, how would you say, Frank, like say Margaret Thatcher :D:D:D:D

You know we don't have the answers for everything.... when we ask for a bit of help on the issue... we get more Q's and asked to answer them!! :(:(

What do you guys want like!!:D:D:D:D

ninty9er

DJCR wrote: »

My own class discussed the issue of extra curricular activities being recognised on there degree.
In my opinion the issues have to be brought to ground level... ie. how will this decision affect the class. Fees being an extreemly obvious example... if you stood up at the front of your class and asked "who has a spare 6 Grand to finnish college, I guarentee you would se a small number of hands go up.

Never got an email about it. The only people I've seen push this convincingly are Paddy Pratt and Alan Higgins and the students who participated in the pilot scheme. Others have nodded inn its direction, but only those 2 have come to C&S Executive with updates on the issue during their terms.

DJCR wrote: »

Absolutely, both as representatives to their class and Constitutionally as class reps hold all the power. For more info on this, ask and I'll send you the relevant info.

Technically the Students hold all the power.

Since attendance is so poor, why not just have CRC twice per semester, or even better, hold general meetings twice per semester, they already supercede CRC.

If I can't attend CRC, how do my class or I know that our rep is representing the views we give and not
a)their own
b)what the Union wants to hear....a major criticism I'd have of CRC.

DJCR

ninty9er wrote: »

Never got an email about it. The only people I've seen push this convincingly are Paddy Pratt and Alan Higgins and the students who participated in the pilot scheme..

Your not in LM052... although thats not an excuse... someone should have been pushing it in your direction + I was in the Education Working Group when Alan higgins proposed it in his 1st year as Education Officer... so i was participating... hence I was chatting to my class about it. It was back in second year when I started into it with Alan and we wern't divided ionto our majors at that stage so it was still LM050, LM051, Lm052 etc etc etc

ninty9er wrote: »

Technically the Students hold all the power.

Not technically ... It's completely true!! However, the whole student body only meets twice a year!! Thats like saying the People of Ireland hold all the power and we should all meet twice a year to dictate the future of the country... what happens in the mean time... whats the Dail for??

ninty9er wrote: »

If I can't attend CRC, how do my class or I know that our rep is representing the views we give and not
a)their own
b)what the Union wants to hear....a major criticism I'd have of CRC.

Well the whole thing about being a class representative is to represent your class.... If you have trust issues with your class rep well then vote for someone else.... + if you spoke to your class rep on issues or just in general you would kinow whats going on and how they stand on those issues... Attendance is also taken so they can find out back asking the Education Officer.

I would like an example of B + what does the "Union" want to hear?? The Union represents the students so if you don't agree with whats going on, its the class reps job to say what the students want and put it in the right direction... or of course have your say at the AGM on Tuesday!:)

bluedolphin

DJCR wrote: »

..................AGM on Tuesday!:)

AAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!

NO!!!
It's the UGM on WEDNESDAY!

2pm, Jean Monnet! :pac:

ninty9er

DJCR wrote: »

Not technically ... It's completely true!! However, the whole student body only meets twice a year!! Thats like saying the People of Ireland hold all the power and we should all meet twice a year to dictate the future of the country... what happens in the mean time... whats the Dail for??

Ah yes, but the Dáil in reality just rubberstamps what the Cabinet wants, with issues raised to specific offices otherwise, which is the issue I have, and considering ALL of the students (bar Placements and Co-Op) are on campus makes it easier for the decision to be taken at that level.

The reason the Dáil works is because you could never hold order at a meeting of 2 million people. 10,000 is difficult, but considering quorum is 200, the amount of people that show up is completely dependent on the issues mattering to those in attendance.

The problem with class reps is exactly that the decision making function is superfluous to requirements. For example a TD doesn't raise the pothole outside Pat's house in the Dáil, it is referred to a Council official. This is a completely legitimate function of Class Reps, to act as a go-between for lecturers, the Union, groupings etc. But because of the relatively small constituency that is UL, it is much easier just to have 4 general meetings a year, when anyone can put something on the agenda.

I've never been a class rep, as I see it as a waste of my time to go to a Council where I basically get told what the Sabbats and Non-Sabbats did for the last fortnight and a waste of my class' time if they elect me and I don't go. Catch 22. The Union can get things done by will of the majority who can be arsed to show at a UGM, otherwise CR should meet on academic issues and policy, not all policy. They can go to a UGM like anyone else for anything else.

I used to see a value in Class Reps theoretically, but since so many don't actually go, which is something I only figured out when asked to minute a meeting, there's a problem in that those who want their class rep to do something for them, can't attend and vote in his or her place.

I don't see class reps as a useless function, but I see it as overvalued and underutilised. A small number of people (is it 80 that's quorum?) can make decisions that 10,000 are expected to stick by, which is why I've put my motion to UGM as opposed to class reps.

DJCR

ninty9er wrote: »

Ah yes, but the Dáil in reality just rubberstamps what the Cabinet wants.

Yes we're used to that, but I think we are to be in for a change soon... for better, for worse... And even if it is just a rubber stamp, arn't the views of the minority aired within the Dail as well.... I mean if we were to discuss everything at 2 meetings a year with everybody.... quite frankly the meetings would last for hours... putting people off of coming + causing Quorate not to be reach + causing no decisions to be made.

ninty9er wrote: »

The reason the Dáil works is because you could never hold order at a meeting of 2 million people. 10,000 is difficult, but considering quorum is 200, the amount of people that show up is completely dependent on the issues mattering to those in attendance.

I honestly don't think the Quorum would be left at 200 if this was the only representation available... I mean this University has between 8000 and 9000 students... One could hardly say that any result of this would be representative of the whole College.

However, due to the class rep system ... roughly one rep per every 20 students... The Students of each lass have the OPPORTUNITY to be represented ... whether they choose to be or not is their own choice. Thereby making the current situation as democratic as can be!!

ninty9er wrote: »

The problem with class reps is exactly that the decision making function is superfluous to requirements.

Ok so in this case you would prefer roughly 8 people to make all the decisions and only have to answer for them 4 times during their term!! Not the most democratic....

ninty9er wrote: »

I've never been a class rep, as I see it as a waste of my time to go to a Council where I basically get told what the Sabbats and Non-Sabbats did for the last fortnight.

Well the Sabats are elected officals, they have to be accountable to someone... What are we paying them for if they are doing nothing?? It would be a great job to have if your Boss only popped in 4 times a year!!!!Also if they are seen not to be representing the majority of students in their decisions they can asked to stop and put on the correct line by Class Reps.

ninty9er wrote: »

I used to see a value in Class Reps theoretically, but since so many don't actually go, which is something I only figured out when asked to minute a meeting, there's a problem in that those who want their class rep to do something for them, can't attend and vote in his or her place.

I think I remember saying anyone can attend the CRC.

ninty9er wrote: »

I don't see class reps as a useless function, but I see it as overvalued and underutilised. A small number of people (is it 80 that's quorum?) can make decisions that 10,000 are expected to stick by, which is why I've put my motion to UGM as opposed to class reps.

I agree with you here, there is alot more that we can do with class reps and yes as much as I've defended it there are problems.... I understand your points.

However on the last Quote.... Class Reps do not make decisions that other students will be FORCED to stick to ...... that is the role of the UGM, and that is why we have them..... could you imagine if the whole student populous were bombarded with matters of the day to day running of the Union ... as in what events are being planned (that may not go ahead) or who may be talking at a CRC meeting (or maybe not)..... You see my point!!

In my opinion Class Reps have an integral role to play in the running of the Union and that my dear friends is the last I have to say on the matter cause I feel like Im going around in circles:D:D:D:D

+ I could do with the Cavalry arriving in about now:D:D:D;);)

klong

No need DJCR, at least we're getting opinions without this turning into a massive flame war!

I think the quote of CRC being "overvalued and underutilised" is quite apt though.

ULPaddy

My arrival to this is a little late; however, there can be an benefit to that as I have not yet fallen into the trap of having to defend my corner. I must agree with Dave, the discussion seems to be going in circles with no one actually providing any new information or novel ideas. I've been around for the past four years and whenever I have been in UL, during that time I've been a Class Rep. To say that it is pointless and should be done away with I feel to be an insult to myself and the many of my best friends at UL.

Sadly referring to class reps as "egotistical" seems to be a bad thing, it inevitably having negative connotations. I wish I could say that Class Reps are wholely altruistic in choosing to take on that role, but it's not the case. That is; however, not necessarily a negative thing. What's the point in doing something volutary if you don't enjoy it, if you don't feel good about doing it. As is clear from a number of quotes it isn't the most coveted of roles for which one recieves endless praise and thanks. Aux Contraire it's actually something for which those reps who do take their role seriously, who do care about the student body and do make an effort to bring-about change for the better on campus seem to put-in alot more effort than the reward they recieve. I couldn't see any reason why someone would stay involved with the SU if they didn't enjoy it - simply wouldn't be worth it.

Being a business student I constantly hear about wanting to motivate people and the "effort-reward bargain" and maximising output with minimum input. In my view some of the most motivated individuals in UL are class reps, the SU and student body is getting a pretty good bargain and the input is highly impressive from those "clique-members".

With regard to the use of "clique" to describe it - definitely wrong. It's not exclusive, just most seem not to want to include themselves. How many events are organised, protests planned, items for discussion raised, yet only a small group (relative to entire student population) get involved and it just appens to be the same few. I can see how the perception of a clique may evolve, but it's definitely a malapropism.

Class Reps is in both theory and action a great thing, yet clearly there is a major problem out there:

• Reps and students alike don't know what Class Reps role is
• The efforts and work of the SU and those involved goes very-much unseen by the wider student body and
• Mostly the students don't give a s**t (a less eloquent way of saying student apathy)

That is to name a few. So what's to be done about it? How do we get-rid of the "loafers", those taking a free-ride and bulking-up their C.V.? How do we make the students care? If you have an answer to these, please bring it up at council or go tell a sabbatical officer, I'm sure they would love to know.

I wonder, has anyone actually gone into the education officer and outlined the issues with Class-Reps, the worries they had and made suggestions as to what can be or has to be done. How about disproving the widespread impression of student apathy and actually do something about this.

There is actually a "Class Rep Development Group" that should probably deal with everything that has been raised in this thread. Might be time they got together, took a serious look at what Class Reps and CRC are intended for and to what extent this is being achieved.

ninty9er

DJCR wrote: »

Ok so in this case you would prefer roughly 8 people to make all the decisions and only have to answer for them 4 times during their term!! Not the most democratic....

It's easily as democratic as CRC

DJCR wrote: »

Well the Sabats are elected officals, they have to be accountable to someone... What are we paying them for if they are doing nothing?? It would be a great job to have if your Boss only popped in 4 times a year!!!!Also if they are seen not to be representing the majority of students in their decisions they can asked to stop and put on the correct line by Class Reps.

When you and I were in first year they did it through the medium of An Focal. As an outsider it made them approachable if you saw them in An Focal every 2 weeks telling you what they had done.

DJCR wrote: »

I think I remember saying anyone can attend the CRC.

I remember referring specifically to voting.:D

ULPaddy

ninty9er wrote: »

Originally Posted by DJCR
Ok so in this case you would prefer roughly 8 people to make all the decisions and only have to answer for them 4 times during their term!! Not the most democratic....

Posted by ninty9er
It's easily as democratic as CRC

ninty9er, you have seen the turnout at AGMs and UGMs the past years and that is WITH class reps attending them. If you didn't have class reps there, what you would end up with are the Sabbats and about 10 people looking very confused after being dragged along because they just happened to walk by the sabbats a few minutes earlier as the sabbats made thir way to the General Meeting. Personally, the statement is quite frivolous without actually backing it up with some form of evidence or other support - without that it's nothing but a broad-ranging cynical opinion. Provide some rationale for your view, because I can't see how 8 people giving a speech 4 times a year about their decisions could be "as democratic" as 100-200 students meeting 10-12 times a year after having been elected to represent the majority of 10,000+ students!

Equally, you must consider the practicality of 4 such meetings per year - if each class-reps takes the good part of an hour, how long would these General Meetings take to work-through - nobody would attend a 5 hour meeting! In addition the progress of the union is hindered and made slow enough on many occasions without the additional problem of only being able to get a "green-light" 4 times a year. Sorry ninety9er, but from a logical perspective the suggestion that it is "as democratic" is quite obsurd.

ninty9er wrote: »

Originally Posted by DJCR
Well the Sabats are elected officals, they have to be accountable to someone... What are we paying them for if they are doing nothing?? It would be a great job to have if your Boss only popped in 4 times a year!!!!Also if they are seen not to be representing the majority of students in their decisions they can asked to stop and put on the correct line by Class Reps.

Posted by ninty9er
When you and I were in first year they did it through the medium of An Focal. As an outsider it made them approachable if you saw them in An Focal every 2 weeks telling you what they had done.

If Bluedolphin could provide verification of this it would be appreciated. Don't the Sabbats still do this!?

ninty9er wrote: »

Originally Posted by DJCR
I think I remember saying anyone can attend the CRC.

Posted by ninty9er
I remember referring specifically to voting.:D

That's why Class Reps are meant to "REPRESENT" their classes view. If there is an individual there and they have an issue, then it is the Reps role to raise the issue and vote according to what his/her classes opinion is. Even if the classes view contrasts that of the individual the rep is representing the majority (this is known as Democracy).

Robo_Mike

Does anyone else feel we got nowhere last night in council????? I know what Don Barry was talking about was important but it surely could have been wrapped up faster..... The last half hour of questions seemed to lead nowhere and nothing constructive was brought out of them..... We were goin around in circles... If attendance needs to be kept up the meetings need to be kept more precise and compact.....

Just my 2 cents....

ergonomics

I get the feeling that everyone felt the meeting was dragging on, but no one really wanted to tell the President of UL to shut up.

DJCR

ergonomics wrote: »

I get the feeling that everyone felt the meeting was dragging on, but no one really wanted to tell the President of UL to shut up.

I thought he was great ........ very clever man!!

I felt empathic towards him....

ie. He made it clear that he felt no one should have to pay fees ("Socialist at heart" I believe was the quote.

However, in his professional capacity he needs the money to do his job and he really doesn't care where he gets it from seen as the Uni is €6 million in debt ........ and he has to finnish the year with a deficit of €2 million!!

I mean, can you imagine the cut backs he has to administer..... + the fact he has guarenteed a solution to the Pitch Problem we have at the moment......... which is onna cost another couple of million!!

Put simply...... I don't envy his position!

sceptre

DJCR wrote: »

+ the fact he has guarenteed a solution to the Pitch Problem we have at the moment......... which is onna cost another couple of million!!

That'll come out of the capital budget - won't affect anything with regard to funding anything else or the deficit (it's what I call the "reverse Living bridge" argument).

DJCR

sceptre wrote: »

That'll come out of the capital budget - won't affect anything with regard to funding anything else or the deficit (it's what I call the "reverse Living bridge" argument).

You know... I've used this arguement myself and the more I look into it, the less I'm covinced!!

I mean the money has to come from somewhere ie. the Govt.

Thats where most of the Uni money comes from ... so I'm beginning to think that even though "Officially" we don't loose out on funding.... we must loose out somewhere.

Also Don refered to "finding money" for this project....... so I'm not sure they even know where the funding for this will come from themselves!!

sceptre

DJCR wrote: »

so I'm beginning to think that even though "Officially" we don't loose out on funding.... we must loose out somewhere.

You'd think that. However capital funding generally comes from sources that aren't government. These sources of funding won't fund a current budget expense anyway. And where it comes from sources that *are* government, firstly they're matched funds which halves the amount coming from government anyway and secondly the funds are provided for capital projects and capital projects only (they'd never find their way into current account plugging).

Money to fix the pitches is likely to come from one of two sources (or both): fundraising from the usual benefactors (who won't pay for any current expenses, only capital) or government funds for recreational facilities (which also won't pay for current expenses, only capital). There's no specific current government DoE fund for recreational facilities in educational facilities (never has been either as far as I know, that's why secondary schools keep buying their own pitches solely out of fundraising efforts) so it can't come from something like that.

Hence, while I can well understand the notion that the money has to come from somewhere that will be diverting money that could have been used to pay for wages and electricity and all the other things that are funded by the current account, that's not going to happen. Not in this case.

You could make an argument that at a very high level the government could decide to put money into university current account funding or university capital account funding and hence there's a loss to be made but that doesn't apply, again for two reasons: firstly, the government make a decision about the total amount that goes into each fund pretty much regardless of individual need in the first place (look at the matched funding for the library - that was announced to be funded by the first bundle of TLI PPP almost a year after the total amount in the fund had been decided (the money could have gone to UL, CIT, LIT and DLIADT as it did or any other colleges if they'd decided otherwise) and secondly the government won't be paying a bean towards this as part of actual 3rd level or educational funding anyway (if there's any government funding, it'll come out of the sport or environment kitty).

When Don refers to "finding money" for it, he's basically saying he doesn't necessarily yet know who he's going to pimp himself to for it. Capital expenditure like this can't impact on any current expenditure funding. At best or at worst, he asks a benefactor for money for this in preference to asking a benefactor for money for a new building - the next new building planned with a shortfall in funding is the President's house. Don doesn't want to live there anyway so it probably suits him to put off funding for it. Win-win for everyone.

DJCR

Cheers for the above........

It's head wreckin.... Good luck finding Benefactors.

We may have to rename the pitches in the name of Advertising :D:D:D

ninty9er

DJCR wrote: »

Also Don refered to "finding money" for this project....... so I'm not sure they even know where the funding for this will come from themselves!!

Lets just say there's likely to be a delay in the construction of Plassey House Vol.2. That would have cost the same.

ULPaddy

Robo_Mike wrote: »

Does anyone else feel we got nowhere last night in council????? I know what Don Barry was talking about was important but it surely could have been wrapped up faster..... The last half hour of questions seemed to lead nowhere and nothing constructive was brought out of them..... We were goin around in circles... If attendance needs to be kept up the meetings need to be kept more precise and compact.....

Just my 2 cents....

Well, I'm gonna be a complete diplomat here and say I both agree and disagree. Here's a few points I had intended on making in the meeting - about 15 minutes before it ended - partially in the hope of bringing it to a close:

Firstly my respects and fair dues to Don Barry for returning time and again to the Council meetings knowing well what awaits him - an hour-long inquisition per se. Sadly I did not come to word at the closing stage of the meeting tonight and had personally hoped to provide somewhat of a summation and closing statement touching on the central points, but, alas my hand was overseen or ignored. The three points I had wished to make were:


1. With regard to FEES he stated (and DJCR in part alluded to this) that he would not change his position - in that he does not care where the money comes from, whether it be students or government. In terms of this:
- should his obligation not be to students and helping them avoid the possible ramifications and financial problems they may suffer through the introduction of fees, rather than to the government and solving there financial problems through the introduction of fees?

2. The majority of responses to his ambition to broaden degrees by introducing interdisciplinary modules were criticisms of the idea - personally I think it a wonderful idea. In terms of my own personal experience as a 4th year with employers, through interviews, presentations and the likes, is precisely the point which you made. They are looking for "well-rounded" individuals who can work in a dynamic and flexible fashion (something gained through a broader range of subjects). Additionally, as a BBS student after four years of hearing income must exceed costs in the long-term it becomes a little repetitive. I would have loved to have undertaken subjects in Engineering, Literature, psychology etc.
A slight concern was the use of the word "force" - which I didn't like. If such a system were to be introduced than I think it is important to offer a choice that students won't be doing courses they despise, seen as irrelevant and then not attending.

3. In terms of costs and the deficit which the university now faces:
- there has been rumor of a new Presidents House being constructed, costing a few million. Is this true? If so is a new house necessary and could that money not be better invested in alleviating the deficit?
- Could the money used to build new buildings not also be used to maintain them (the two-budgets issue).

This final point has now been cleared-up by Ninety9er. Personally I'd prefer good pitches to a pretty house - it also supports DJCRs initial point that Don's a great fella at heart (even if he did study maths and ONLY maths ) and I feel empathic towards him (and not just because he studied maths).