WIT University Status - "Its a big 'no'"

Sully

According to todays Munster Express, the City Council received a letter today from the Department of Education which contains a "no" to the upgrading of WIT. Its an interputation of a letter by Cllr. Pat Hayes. He claims its the first indication they are refusing our application.

Ill quote the full article when it appears on the website but its on the front page of todays paper.

gscully

I know this won't be popular with some, but I for one am glad. Until WIT deal with the parking problems that have seen neighbouring estates littered with cars, they don't deserve university status. They have little regard for the surrounding areas, so they should not be surprised that those from the surrounding areas have little regard for their plight.

Sully

I think the parking situation has little or nothing to do with whether they get it or not!

testicle

I think Trinity should lose its University status in that case.

Time Magazine

gscully wrote: »

Until WIT deal with the parking problems that have seen neighbouring estates littered with cars, they don't deserve university status.

I agree completely. Local residents' concerns should always come first.

Sully

The Economist wrote: »

I agree completely. Local residents' concerns should always come first.

Do you have a subscription watch for topics containing the word "University" in the Waterford forum? :P

mike65

If this is correct, I presume the economy will be cited as a "reason" not to invest in a University.

I await InvincibleIrish to arrive from stage left.

old gregg

testicle wrote: »

I think Trinity should lose its University status in that case.

and UCC for that matter

Waterford doesn't need or deserve a university.

gscully

Sully wrote: »

I think the parking situation has little or nothing to do with whether they get it or not!

I know that Sully, but my personal feeling is to greet this as good news for the reason I've mentioned.

nkay1985

Deleted User wrote: »

Waterford doesn't need or deserve a university.

Location: Liatroim eh?.........I'l say no more.

This is another slap in the face for the south east if this is true. It's not just for the benefit of Waterford. It's Wexford, Kilkennmy, Tipperary, even Cork, and plenty more besides.

We're losing loads of jobs in Waterford Crystal. Honeywell have been on short time for quite a while. I'm typing this while out on short time from Bauscha& Lomb. Only Genzyme seem truly strong. The only way we can hope to replace these jobs is by having a higher recognised standard of education, in the form of a University. Attract all those jobs the government are talking about, the "knowledge-led economy". It's all just cheap talk as usual.

I see the Waterford Today has Fianna Fail's local election campaign launch as its banner story today. If this news is true, I wouldn't want to be part of any of those campaign teams hitting the doorsteps.

Psychedelic

gscully wrote: »

I know this won't be popular with some, but I for one am glad. Until WIT deal with the parking problems that have seen neighbouring estates littered with cars, they don't deserve university status. They have little regard for the surrounding areas, so they should not be surprised that those from the surrounding areas have little regard for their plight.

Their plight is all our plight - a university will benefit Waterford and the South East region though job creation and knowledge based industries but yet you don't want this to happen because of the cars in your estate.

Our city is in big trouble at the moment and you come on here gloating that we're not getting the one thing (a university) that could drag us out of the mire, just because of cars parking in your neighbourhood.

Bards

So much for the Govt touting the Knowledge Economy Mantra

trishw78

Deleted User wrote: »

Waterford doesn't need or deserve a university.

You're right, but the SOUTH EAST does deserve a university and WIT, IMO is the best option

Ri na hEireann

Deleted User wrote: »

Waterford doesn't need or deserve a university.

I could just as easily say Leitrim doesn't need or deserve to be a County. But then again if I did I'd substantiate my claim with an arguement.

You're ignorance isn't worthy of a proper reply.

Mickdots

Remember this when Martin Cullen’s henchmen come to your door looking for votes

He promised in the last general election and the previous one before that
University for Waterford, result = No
Radiotherapy for Waterford, result = No
Second River Crossing, result = yes but did he ever tell anyone about the private sector building it and the toll. Result = NO!!!

Out in the glass 2 weeks ago he was nearly lynched by the workers over bare face lies he told them!! The man is a fraud!!

As for Pat Hayes letter, that’s all well and good for him but I meet Pat about a year ago at a friends wedding and he told me personally that we wouldn’t be getting it but it was worth the fight and learning the process for when the college upgrades its facilities!! And that’s a few years off yet!!

gscully

Psychedelic wrote: »

Their plight is all our plight - a university will benefit Waterford and the South East region though job creation and knowledge based industries but yet you don't want this to happen because of the cars in your estate.

Our city is in big trouble at the moment and you come on here gloating that we're not getting the one thing (a university) that could drag us out of the mire, just because of cars parking in your neighbourhood.

Gloating? Hardly!

As I said in another thread about parking in Lismore Park, the college doesn't deserve Uni status if it cannot put the needs of it's students and faculty staff first. While they are off trying to find somewhere to park, classes are carrying on without them...or classes are not happening because the lecturers are off trying to park somewhere. The college has so far done nothing to address this issue, and are set to add to the problem by building on top of the small car-park at the back of the college - leading to a further shortage. If the college does not put the needs of the students first, then it simply does not deserve Uni status.

KingLoser

Not really suprised about this.

Nolanger

Time for another protest march.

Bards

gscully wrote: »

Gloating? Hardly!

As I said in another thread about parking in Lismore Park, the college doesn't deserve Uni status if it cannot put the needs of it's students and faculty staff first. While they are off trying to find somewhere to park, classes are carrying on without them...or classes are not happening because the lecturers are off trying to park somewhere. The college has so far done nothing to address this issue, and are set to add to the problem by building on top of the small car-park at the back of the college - leading to a further shortage. If the college does not put the needs of the students first, then it simply does not deserve Uni status.

University status will bring with it increased funding. With increased funding comes improved facilities, (such as parking). so it is a bit irrational to argue parking issues as a reason not to re-designate to Univeristy Status

alpha2zulu

Time for another protest march

Its gonna have to be something a bit more original than that,marches are 10 a penny in the studenty world so its unlikely to have much of an effect.

Terrible news if true, if there are any ff/green party councillors or td's around after the next set of elections it will be one too many.

Bards

alpha2zulu wrote: »

Its gonna have to be something a bit more original than that,marches are 10 a penny in the studenty world so its unlikely to have much of an effect.

Terrible news if true, if there are any ff/green party councillors or td's around after the next set of elections it will be one too many.

Time to do what CIT did. Change the name of WIT to University College Waterford. I doubt the Govt will have the stomach to fight this while so much is happening on the economic front

Nolanger

Bards wrote: »

Change the name of WIT to University College Waterford.

Won't be legally allowed - Company Law forbids the use of 'university' in a Business Name unless permission is granted by the government.

Bards

Nolanger wrote: »

Won't be legally allowed - Company Law forbids the use of 'university' in a Business Name unless permission is granted by the government.

And CRTC got away with changing the name on their college when WRTC was re-designated to WIT - wasn't allowed then either, but hey, I guess that's why they call Cork the rebel county

Paddy@CIRL

I don't think the WIT will recieve Uni status until it realises that becoming a University won't solve its problems. They need to concentrate on sorting out the many, many problems of it's IT before even contemplating applying for University status again.

I'm sick of hearing 'If we were a University, we wouldn't be having these problems.'

Well we're not a University, we are having major problems and they may start sorting themselves out sharpish.

gscully

Bards wrote: »

University status will bring with it increased funding. With increased funding comes improved facilities, (such as parking). so it is a bit irrational to argue parking issues as a reason not to re-designate to Univeristy Status

Irrational? With their current funding, they are planning another building on an existing car park!

I have no problem with them getting university status...as long as they have their house in order. It seems they haven't yet. Just because it's the best Institute in the S.E. doesn't mean it automatically deserves to be upgraded.

shapez

I would prefer to have an excellent IT, than a s**t university.

ziedth

shapez wrote: »

I would prefer to have an excellent IT, than a s**t university.

This is exactly what I was going to post, In the grand scheme of things would we get more people in the region if we had the worst uni or the very best IT.

old gregg

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

I don't think the WIT will recieve Uni status until it realises that becoming a University won't solve its problems. They need to concentrate on sorting out the many, many problems of it's IT before even contemplating applying for University status again.

I'm sick of hearing 'If we were a University, we wouldn't be having these problems.'

Well we're not a University, we are having major problems and they may start sorting themselves out sharpish.

agreed wholeheartedly. silk purse/pig's ear and all that

Asmodean

I think too many people think that the word 'university' is like a magic wand. If there are problems with the IT at the moment they are only going to increase ten-fold with the advent of university status. Better make sure the transition could be accomodated smoothly. If it did receive uni status and make a cock up of things the entire country would be watching.

merlante

I see all the usual ridiculous statements about being trotted out about parking and residents, etc.

WIT is an institution spread over three campuses, not just the one on the Cork rd. Parking has nothing to do with anything. As someone pointed out, Trinity has no parking. How do the geniuses respond to that?

In the Times University Survey of last year, Ireland scored well in the 'world class' category, with Trinity and UCD ranking highly, but fell down on the 'access' category. Aside from the low level of 3rd level education spend in Ireland in general, the best way to improve access is to give to the south east what already exists in other major regions.

It is not even primarily a matter of funding imho, WIT needs to have its remit widened so it can compete nationally and internationally. It is a stronger and more viable institution that some of the universities because it has a large region and population (~450K) base behind it and no real competition within 125km. If it is allowed to grow unrestricted it will become as strong as, say, university of Limerick, which is only a university since 1989. High level research is being directly hampered by Waterford's IT status because of the IT status -- which has to be continually overcome in innovative ways -- and in terms of recurrent funding, which is far below that of the universities.

An IT in the US is just a name and affects nothing, and the likes of MIT can become world leaders in research. An IT in Ireland is a type of institution in law that has a very restrictive 3rd level remit. It's not the name, it's the status.

Anyway, I suppose not much more can be said until the correspondence becomes public.

Nolanger

Here's a thought - if WIT became a university wouldn't the points increase? Then many Waterford students wouldn't be able to get in and would have to go to a 3rd-level college in another county?

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

Here's a thought - if WIT became a university wouldn't the points increase? Then many Waterford students wouldn't be able to get in and would have to go to a 3rd-level college in another county?

The points would mainly only increase because Waterford people decide to go to the WU rather than another college. So people are already going to college in other counties, that's the problem. If you're right, the university would only bring them back.

Also, there are a lot of courses that WIT can't do because of its industry focus -- which it is trying hard to break away from -- so in these cases 100% of Waterford students are leaving.

What you're saying is similar to, "I hope this restaurant doesn't get better because then I might have a hard time getting a booking and might have to eat somewhere else..."

Nolanger

Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway all have universities but they also have ITs.
Can't see Waterford having a university and no IT - doesn't make sense.
They should have turned John's College into a university for the arts and religious studies and developed it from there.

merlante

Nolanger wrote: »

Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway all have universities but they also have ITs.
Can't see Waterford having a university and no IT - doesn't make sense.
They should have turned John's College into a university for the arts and religious studies and developed it from there.

No one is asking for an IT and a university. The campaign is to upgrade the WIT to university status and let Carlow IT and Tipp. institute take care of the IT needs of the region. This is fair enough if you consider that we have a lot of counties and biggish towns in the south east compared to Galway/Limerick/Cork which are the only major centres of any kind of population in their respective regions (with maybe only one or two exceptions) so the wealth should be shared, as it were.

robtri

I myself have no experience of the facilites ect personally of WIT, but judging by past threads on this subject, I am not surprised that WIT will not be upgraded, and I think its the right decession to make. WIT need to clean up there house a lot and then re-apply.....

fricatus

robtri wrote: »

I myself have no experience of the facilites ect personally of WIT, but judging by past threads on this subject, I am not surprised that WIT will not be upgraded, and I think its the right decession to make. WIT need to clean up there house a lot and then re-apply.....

Once again we have a poster totally and utterly missing the point...

The issue is not - repeat not - about whether WIT should in and of itself be upgraded to university status, whether it "deserves" to be upgraded, or about ticking boxes like the quality of lecture theatres or parking.

The issue is whether the south-east should continue to suffer the disadvantage of not having a university while smaller regions (with albeit marginally larger cities such as Galway) enjoy the benefits that their universities bring to these cities and regions.

The answer in terms of equity of treatment (or parity of esteem if you want to call it that) is obvious: the south-east must eventually have a university. I can't remember all the history, but I seem to remember that the government ruled out the setting-up of a "greenfield" university - i.e. one that was set up from scratch - in favour of the upgrading of an existing institution.

Working on that assumption, the only institution that even remotely fits the bill is WIT, and it should now be used as the platform for the establishment of the state's 8th university, whether students and local residents have concerns about parking or not.

I bought a house a few years ago here in Waterford, as this is where I intend to make my life, possibly raise children, work, socialise, etc. A university will create major opportunities in the social and employment spheres for the city and the region. The students can park on my front lawn if they want, because this is much more important for all our futures than little issues like parking, that some people still can't seem to see past.

merlante

robtri wrote: »

I myself have no experience of the facilites ect personally of WIT, but judging by past threads on this subject, I am not surprised that WIT will not be upgraded, and I think its the right decession to make. WIT need to clean up there house a lot and then re-apply.....

Firstly, Fricatus is 100% right in what he says.

But just to clarify a few things further:
- WIT is not a campus on the Cork rd.
- WIT is not a congested carpark.
- WIT is not a set of facilities.
- WIT is not a living being that deserves things or doesn't deserve them.

WIT is a public body in law established by the Institutes of Technology act. WIT owns campuses, carparks, facilities, etc. Now what we want is a university in Waterford, which would be a reconstituted WIT under a new 'Waterford University Act', or whatever. This act would give the WIT/WU/USE similar powers to those of the other universities in the state. An indirect benefit would be the likely increase in recurrent funding and research opportunities and output.

Whether or not WIT is an IT, university, primary school or bookies shop, parking spaces and facilities have nothing to do with it. WIT has better parking than Trinity, does that mean that Trinity should be downgraded and Waterford upgraded in its place? No, of course not.

The main reason why the WIT might not be upgraded is because the government don't want to get themselves into a position where they might have to spend money, in a 'safe' constituency of all places. Don't kid yourself that the decision will have anything to do with the facilities, courses, graduates, quality of education, etc., of WIT, because it won't. The decision will be financial and political.

mike65

Inaction condemed

THE FAILURE of Government to act on Waterford Institute of Technology’s (WIT) submission seeking university designation has been termed a “gross insult to the region” by a local campaign group supporting the university agenda.

The Friends of the University of the South East (Fuse) said it was a disgrace that there was still no news three years after WIT’s submission – and said continuing job losses in the region made it more vital than ever that the Government delivers on a university.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0220/1224241488825.html

robtri

merlante wrote: »

Firstly, Fricatus is 100% right in what he says.


The main reason why the WIT might not be upgraded is because the government don't want to get themselves into a position where they might have to spend money, in a 'safe' constituency of all places. Don't kid yourself that the decision will have anything to do with the facilities, courses, graduates, quality of education, etc., of WIT, because it won't. The decision will be financial and political.

I do agree it will be financially motivated and political, but my point is that from my understanding is that a lot of things are wrong in WIT, facilities, courses, graduates, quality of education, etc.,.... why should they be considered to be upgraded if they can't get the basic's like educating people in a safe enviroment done correctly....

merlante

robtri wrote: »

I do agree it will be financially motivated and political, but my point is that from my understanding is that a lot of things are wrong in WIT, facilities, courses, graduates, quality of education, etc.,.... why should they be considered to be upgraded if they can't get the basic's like educating people in a safe enviroment done correctly....

I give up.

fricatus

robtri wrote: »

I do agree it will be financially motivated and political, but my point is that from my understanding is that a lot of things are wrong in WIT, facilities, courses, graduates, quality of education, etc.,.... why should they be considered to be upgraded if they can't get the basic's like educating people in a safe enviroment done correctly....

You're not really a "big picture" person, are you?

fricatus

Just thought I'd add this in as an aside. Now these are people with vision -true local heroes, and the sort of people who only need the nod from government to make WIT function at the next level. Kudos to all!

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/ireland8217s-minisilicon-valley-provides-key-blueprint-for-the-next-economy-1645143.html

robtri

fricatus wrote: »

You're not really a "big picture" person, are you?

Actually I like to think I am, I am all in favour and would gladly support a UNI in the southeast, I believe it would be of massive benifit to the community. I just believe that if the WIT is being run as badly as people has said it is in the past, then why should it get the UNI status... I don't see why the taxpayer should just dole out the money here and hope for the best?????

robtri

fricatus wrote: »

Once again we have a poster totally and utterly missing the point...

The issue is not - repeat not - about whether WIT should in and of itself be upgraded to university status, whether it "deserves" to be upgraded, or about ticking boxes like the quality of lecture theatres or parking.

The issue is whether the south-east should continue to suffer the disadvantage of not having a university while smaller regions (with albeit marginally larger cities such as Galway) enjoy the benefits that their universities bring to these cities and regions.

I have never said anything about the souteast not getting a UNI, so you actually missed my point, and the topic here is about the WIT getting UNI Status, so I am staying on topic here....
I am all in favour of a UNI in the souteast and fully support the idea...

robtri

merlante wrote: »

I give up.

why cause I don't agree with your way of thinking???

merlante

robtri wrote: »

Actually I like to think I am, I am all in favour and would gladly support a UNI in the southeast, I believe it would be of massive benifit to the community. I just believe that if the WIT is being run as badly as people has said it is in the past, then why should it get the UNI status... I don't see why the taxpayer should just dole out the money here and hope for the best?????

Well considering that WIT gets one of the lowest per student recurrent budgets every year, believe me, it is very good value for tax payers money. Somebody posted an article from the independent about some of the great things that the WIT is doing and all you can do is harp on about vague, negative rumours you've heard in the past.

An institution can be run badly whether it's a university or an IT. We need a university more than we need an IT, so we should be aiming for a university level institution. In *parallel* to that effort -- because they are *totally* separate issues -- any administrative problems, or otherwise, should be tackled, the very same as the problems that any other institutions might have should be tackled whether or not they are universities or ITs.

And as for these supposed problems. Some people on here seem to think that the WIT is the only institution that does not have enough parking, botches timetables, charges over the odds for boiling water, or has buildings that aren't pretty. Believe me, it is not. I have seen or heard of no evidence whatsoever that the WIT has any more or less problems than any other institution in the country. I'm not interested in comments like "judging by what other people have said in the past, WIT has problems". Not only is that 2nd or 3rd hand experience, but is vague as hell, and should not be taken seriously by anyone.

If someone can point to a news article or report that reports negatively on WIT's facilities relative to other colleges, then by all means enlighten us. Otherwise, can we try not to find fault just for the sake of it? Or cast random aspersions in ignorance that other boards people not from Waterford might pick up on? I cannot understand Waterford people, they are the only people in the country who will actually run down their city, county and institutions, whilst the rest of the country talk up every blade of grass in their counties.

Psychedelic

Here's a crazy idea, maybe students could actually walk or use public transport and they wouldn't be on here whining about problems with parking and saying WIT doesn't 'deserve' university status. Hopefully this recession and college fees will force these students to walk and use public transport as they won't have the money for cars.

Do these people think the Government are going to make their decision to designate university status to WIT based on the car parking facilities? FFS, forget about the bloody parking facilities, they have nothing to do with WIT getting university status.

Anyway, there seems to be new attempts to resolve the parking problems:

Parking Proposal tabled by Cllr O'Neill

Councillor Cha O'Neill has called on the City Manager and Officials to consider a proposal he has made in relation to the parking congestion being caused by the college students in the residential areas surrounding the college.

For some time now the residents surrounding the college have suffered from the parking of cars in their estates, by students attending the college and in some instances these vehicles have resulted in emergency services being unable to gain access which is unacceptable.

Councillor O'Neill has suggested that the new and extensive car park facility at the Regional Sports Centre be opened on a daily basis to allow students to park their vehicles, thus relieving the congestion and frustration suffered by local residents.

The facility at the RSC would cater for some 300 cars and is within walking distance of the college entrance. This facility would accommodate all of the cars and would make use of what is an empty city centre car park for most days of the week.

Cllr O'Neill is recommending that the proposal is given a trial period for several months and if successful, made available on a permanent basis.

http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5345&Itemid=1&ed=533

AdMMM

Sure all the students are driving from Templars Hall... the RSC would be further away :P

ec18

Since it is a piece of legislation limiting WIT's Remit. Why not just change that legislation?
It seems a cheap and easy way to get what some people want

invincibleirish

mike65 wrote: »

If this is correct, I presume the economy will be cited as a "reason" not to invest in a University.

I await InvincibleIrish to arrive from stage left.

You called?

Beyond wounded county pride here there is little else in this thread to suggest that WIT needs an upgrade.

Some light reading, note recommendations on p98:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vUxW0up8I70C&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=academic+freedom+ireland&source=web&ots=6SmjGvWASm&sig=I1y9YvCXh13R1vFJrPHFZr_FdS4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA98,M1

"...and that for the foreseeable futue there be no institutional transfers into the University sector."

Rare i would support Government inaction on an issue but between the experts in the OECD, limited 3rd level funding as is and the political pandoras box a WIT upgrade would bring then it seems unlikely for the foreseeable future.