The Golden Circle Strikes again!

Spore

Just tuned into Newstalk, some serious allegations made over Cowen's decision to reverse the tax liability on CFD purchases which helped our friend Seany Quinn buy up Anglo, the silly bint.

Anyway, Cowen as minister for finance back then reversed the decision by the Revenue Commissioners to pursue the Tax implications of acquiring shares through CFD's.

Accussations in the Dail that Cowen was direcly lobbied by a 'Golden Circle' of investors / stockbrokers

Times have some coverage on it:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0218/1224241332510.html?via=mr

THE IDENTITY of the 10 investors who were given €300 million in loans by Anglo Irish Bank to support its share price last year has emerged as a key political issue with the Opposition intensifying pressure on the Government to justify the decision to nationalise the bank.
In the Dáil yesterday Taoiseach Brian Cowen denied that he or any of his Ministers knew the identity of the wealthy individuals whose debts of €300 million will have to be picked up by the taxpayer as a result of the Government’s decision to nationalise the bank.
Mr Cowen was asked by Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny for the dates on which he became aware of developments at Anglo Irish.
“Can he confirm that no member of his Cabinet was in any way involved in the decisions of a new golden circle? The Galway tent may be gone but its spirit seems to be alive and well,” said Mr Kenny.

gerry28

Cowan looked quite worried about it yesterday in the dail. No doubt there will be a few dodgy names in the Anglo 10 when it all comes out.

mike65

So then 10 wealthy business men (read devlopers) received 300 million euro from Anglo-Irish to buy up shares of Anglo-Irish last Autumn. The Gubberment is refusing to name names (playing dumb methinks) the forthcoming regulators report won't name then either, should they be named by whoever might know under Dail privilege?

After all its all our banks now.

gandalf

Oh the time has come to name names now. It will happen its only a matter of time. I think we probably all have an idea of who they are and what race meetings they attended

mike65

10 fellas standing around looking for a tent?

ntlbell

what's the point in knowing who they were if they're not going to be punished?

Darragh29

A mate of mine told me last night that his parents were at this community discussion last week and Alan Dukes was speaking at the event. He was asked a question about the current situation and his reply was something along the lines of: "As I am on the board of Anglo Irish Bank, I cannot divulge specific information, but I can say this to you... What is going to come out in the next week or two about what has been going on within Anglo, is going to shock the Irish people to their very core, they will barely be able to get their heads around the seriousness of what they are going to hear, they will actually not believe what they are hearing"...

I'm not making this up, now whether this has something to do with the Golden Circle that is emerging, I have no idea, but I do know that Alan Dukes made the above statement or something along the lines of the above, as recently as last week. I'll give my mate a call and see if I can find out exactly what event or where this statement was made...

kenco

I heard rumours last night that some 'interesting names' were going to be falling out of this golden circle.

As of the last few mins RTE Lunchtime news is insinuating that Policitians possibly ministers might be involved. That could be speculation but just imagine the conflict of interests (and im being polite about that)

Zynks

Villain

I think Kenny knows something and is trying to set FF up for a big fall

thebigcheese22

One of the Golden Circle may be a Minister? Thats incredible! I know its all speculation but these are indeed interesting times.

Hopefully this will be enough for the Greens to pull out finally and end this trainwreck of a Government.

Also, can any person with legal knowledge explain the difficulties of divulging the names of these people? I understand it was confidential, but that was before the bank was nationalised so surely we the owners of it have a right to know who they are?
I'm not a lawyer but surely that is common sense.

nesf

Threads merged.

SkepticOne

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

I understand it was confidential, but that was before the bank was nationalised so surely we the owners of it have a right to know who they are?

I think legislation was enacted prior to the nationalising of the bank preventing this information from being released.

Sierra Oscar

Something fishy going on.

SEPT 23 1989

i think the corrupt Fianna Fail will gone after the weekend

gandalf

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think legislation was enacted prior to the nationalising of the bank preventing this information from being released.

Could they be named under Dail privilege?

Zynks

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think legislation was enacted prior to the nationalising of the bank preventing this information from being released.

:eek:
Do you have more information on that? Did the opposition let it go through silently?

SkepticOne

Zynks wrote: »

:eek:
Do you have more information on that? Did the opposition let it go through silently?

It seems to have been opposed by Joan Burton of Labour.

http://www.examiner.ie/story/Ireland/idcwcwsnoj/rss2/

Labour’s finance spokesperson Joan Burton said: "A huge amount of that bill basically deals with secrecy, preserving the secrecy of what goes on in that bank. If we need to restore Ireland’s reputation, the first thing we need to do is restore accountability."

Darragh29

gandalf wrote: »

Could they be named under Dail privilege?

Yeah, constitutionally, Dail privilege is absolute. There is nothing that could not be said in the Dail by a TD for fear of legal retribution. Obviously there is a political sensitive reason as opposed to a commercially sensitive reason why the names have not been forthcoming. Note members of both houses enjoy Dail privilege, which includes Senators as well as TD's...

All official reports and publications of the Oireachtas or of either House thereof and utterances made in either House wherever published shall be privileged. 13. The members of each House of the Oireachtas shall, except in case of treason as defined in this Constitution,
felony or breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest in going to and returning from, and while within the precincts of, either House, and shall not, in respect of any utterance in either House, be amenable to any court or any authority other than the House itself.

Zynks

SkepticOne wrote: »

It seems to have been opposed by Joan Burton of Labour.

http://www.examiner.ie/story/Ireland/idcwcwsnoj/rss2/

Thanks, but I am now about to enter a state of severe depression. This is worse than I thought. If there is somebody from the cabinet involved in the golden circle, he/she may be protected by this legislation.

What next, are they going to setup a new multi-million yo-yo tribunal that basically allows everyone to walk away free?

We are gone beyond banana republic. This is sounding like mafia stuff. It is low, abhorrent, abusive day-light robbery.

Darragh29

Zynks wrote: »

Thanks, but I am now about to enter a state of severe depression. This is worse than I thought. If there is somebody from the cabinet involved in the golden circle, he/she may be protected by this legislation.

What next, are they going to setup a new multi-million yo-yo tribunal that basically allows everyone to walk away free?

We are gone beyond banana republic. This is sounding like mafia stuff. It is low, abhorrent, abusive day-light robbery.

The truth will always emerge in a situation like this.

Pal

mike65 wrote: »

After all its all our banks now.

Its the Minister's bank.
He is the sole shareholder.

Sorry to disappoint but you and I are still plebs.

We own SFA

nuttz

Darragh29 wrote: »

A mate of mine told me last night that his parents were at this community discussion last week and Alan Dukes was speaking at the event.

What?

I wouldn't be surprised is more does come out about Anglo and all the rest of them, but come on now Darragh, the parents of a mate heard that the friend of sister...

Darragh29

nuttz wrote: »

What?

I wouldn't be surprised is more does come out about Anglo and all the rest of them, but come on now Darragh, the parents of a mate heard that the friend of sister...

No, no sisters or friends of sisters! Just my mates parents who told him what they heard Alan Dukes saying at this meeting and they told him and he told me, simple enough tbh...

spadder

Would it be prudent for us to speculate which minister(s) are in the golden circle?

nesf

spadder wrote: »

Would it be prudent for us to speculate which minister(s) are in the golden circle?

So long as anyone isn't making any accusations or tries to state as fact that a certain person was a member of this circle it's fine to speculate. If anyone starts accusing specific people of crime I'll remove their access from this forum since it could be construed as libel.


There is a very fine line here and I would ask people to think carefully before posting anything on this subject.

lostexpectation

Darragh29 wrote: »

A mate of mine told me last night that his parents were at this community discussion last week and Alan Dukes was speaking at the event. He was asked a question about the current situation and his reply was something along the lines of: "As I am on the board of Anglo Irish Bank, I cannot divulge specific information, but I can say this to you... What is going to come out in the next week or two about what has been going on within Anglo, is going to shock the Irish people to their very core, they will barely be able to get their heads around the seriousness of what they are going to hear, they will actually not believe what they are hearing"...

so why hasn't he being shouting about this from the rooftops?

its been called economic treason, is keeping schtum about it treason too.

strombone

Here's a list of current Ministers and Ministers of State:

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=237&docID=-1

For various reasons, I don't currently believe that any of these can be one of the Anglo Ten.

In any event, are we really to believe that in July of last year, Anglo and Quinn, needing a "dig-out" on the Quinn CFDs, and in the context of the potential for a run on Anglo, directly invited a member of the government to take a loan of €30m to buy shares?

I think Kenny is spoofing with this line of questioning, and, if that's is the case, then it's less than helpful in the circumstances.

K4t

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'll give my mate a call and see if I can find out exactly what event or where this statement was made...

Do be careful 007

P. Breathnach

spadder wrote: »

Would it be prudent for us to speculate which minister(s) are in the golden circle?

We're still at the stage of speculating if any politician was involved. This looks like racing too far ahead.

old boy

how come some people are suprised by this, where is charlie bird when we need him most, how come trickey questions are not being asked by the media.

J.

TV3 Political editor Ursula Halligan is reporting from a government source saying that 'a senior female FF government minister told FF backbenchers that if they taught it was bad now they were wrong, to brace themselves for a rocky weekend' and the source noted concern the the greens have not been in the dail the last two days during leaders questions and cowens statements

habraws

Given that the 'awareness' of the deal goes back to March, can I detect the the cold hand of Bertie pulling the strings

P. Breathnach

old boy wrote: »

...where is charlie bird when we need him most ...

In Washington. We need him there, or anywhere but here. He would be seriously out of his depth with this stuff.

A bit like us.

ejmaztec

No problems now as Biffo is apparently only protecting the Irish taxpayer. I wonder which Irish taxpayer he's talking about.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/politics/cowen-says-he-is-not-protecting-anyone-but-taxpayers-1643796.html

The Taoiseach has insisted in the Dail that he is not protecting anybody other than the Irish taxpayer in his dealings with the Irish banks.
Brian Cowen was speaking after coming under attack for a second day over the secrecy surrounding the 10 investors who were given €300m in loans by Anglo Irish Bank in order to buy shares in the bank.
The individual purchases, which were small enough to avoid disclosure to the Stock Exchange, helped to prevent potential damage to Anglo's share price after Sean Quinn decided to offload a 10% stake in the firm.
Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny repeatedly questioned Mr Cowen this morning about the extent of his knowledge of the shares deal when the Government drew up its bank guarantee scheme last year.
The Taoiseach responded by saying he resented Fine Gael suggestions that he was protecting somebody involved in the deal.

J.

habraws wrote: »

Given that the 'awareness' of the deal goes back to March, can I detect the the cold hand of Bertie pulling the strings

This makes more sense than a current cabinet minister or jr minister being involved, surely if it was a current minister they would be presured to offer they're resignation by now

Mr.Micro

The Taoiseach has insisted in the Dail that he is not protecting anybody other than the Irish taxpayer in his dealings with the Irish banks.

If that is the case why is any information coming out on a drip drip basis? If Biff really meant what he said he would let it all out now and make a clean breast of it. The longer the scandal is prolonged the more suspicious it looks, and the more likely long term damage.

OhNoYouDidn't

spadder wrote: »

Would it be prudent for us to speculate which minister(s) are in the golden circle?

I hate to be the boring one, but the jungle drums I'm hearing are that its not a minister, but a serving FF TD. Not as sexy a story, but will be gas nonetheless.

mike65

Why is boards.ie full of P.ie refugees? :pac:

thomasj

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I hate to be the boring one, but the jungle drums I'm hearing are that its not a minister, but a serving FF TD. Not as sexy a story, but will be gas nonetheless.

are the jungle drums saying if the td was ever a minister ?

J.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I hate to be the boring one, but the jungle drums I'm hearing are that its not a minister, but a serving FF TD. Not as sexy a story, but will be gas nonetheless.

well it has to be a multi-millionaire, how many multi-millionaire FF TDS that aren't government ministers are in the dail

Godge

Fyffes, nothing illegal in the eyes of the Board but to most peoples' eyes it was wrong.
Quinn selling off 10% of Anglo to a golden circle who were lent the money to buy it by Anglo, nothing illegal but wrong.
Anglo dropping the security requirement in the deal, not illegal but wrong.
Anglo depositing money in Irish Nationwide and back again, nothing illegal but wrong.

A taoiseach who takes gifts in Manchester and loans in a pub in Drumcondra, doesn't have a bank account, nothing illegal but wrong.

The common thread is the cute hoorism loved by FF. Bertie was the personification of that. When our previous Taoiseach is defending himself by saying he did nothing illegal, why wouldn't others follow and ignore what is wrong and concentrate on what is legal.

The Irish people have got what they voted for.

OhNoYouDidn't

thomasj wrote: »

are the jungle drums saying if the td was ever a minister ?

Why the fcuk did I not think to ask that. :mad:

J.

is this going to be like naming charlie in the early 90's, no paper or news agency prepared to take on 'the man'. what ever happened to investigative journalism. a sense of once bitten twice shy over the lawlor mishap on the female interpreter

stepbar

J. wrote: »

is this going to be like naming charlie in the early 90's, no paper or news agency prepared to take on 'the man'. what ever happened to investigative journalism. a sense of once bitten twice shy over the lawlor mishap on the female interpreter

There's a difference between investigative journalism and pure lies.

P. Breathnach

stepbar wrote: »

There's a difference between investigative journalism and pure lies.

In the Lawlor case, it was more like impure lies.

I think J. describing it as a "mishap" is something of an understatement.

J.

stepbar wrote: »

There's a difference between investigative journalism and pure lies.

i know theres a hugh differnce in both stories and in truth n lies but this could be just overkill in the legal departments of the newspapers, etc. we need investigative journalism now more than ever, our counrty is on the line,

nesf

J. wrote: »

i know theres a hugh differnce in both stories and in truth n lies but this could be just overkill in the legal departments of the newspapers, etc. we need investigative journalism now more than ever, our counrty is on the line,

With the mob in the mood it's in the papers better not start naming people unless they're damn sure of what they're saying because it'll blacken people's names regardless of whether it's true or not.

J.

nesf wrote: »

With the mob in the mood it's in the papers better not start naming people unless they're damn sure of what they're saying because it'll blacken people's names regardless of whether it's true or not.

im not asking the papers to take a stab at naming the 10 members of the golden circle, i dont want to know who may or may not be a member, i want to know who the members actually are, at the end of the day im one of the four million and odd owners of that bank now, i want to know who the hell is screwing me and my fello four million citzens out of 225-300 million euro, free press including investigative journalism is the birth-stone of democracy. 225 million of wat they owe us has been declared bad debt by anglo's board and i want it back

Darragh29

Cowen tonight has "confirmed" for us that no person in the cabinet is a member of the "Golden Circle", despite confirming for us today and yesterday that he doesn't know the names of any of the members in the "Golden Circle", so make of that what you will...

I think it is extremely important to note that Cowen, while confirming for us all that he knows that none of his cabinet/ministers are linked to this, despite not knowing the names of the people who are within this "Golden Circle", has not ruled out the possibility that any FF TD's are members of this elite group...

So how many FF TD's outside of the cabinet are in a financial position to be involved here....???

nesf

J. wrote: »

im not asking the papers to take a stab at naming the 10 members of the golden circle, i dont want to know who may or may not be a member, i want to know who the members actually are, at the end of the day im one of the four million and odd owners of that bank now, i want to know who the hell is screwing me and my fello four million citzens out of 225-300 million euro, free press including investigative journalism is the birth-stone of democracy. 225 million of wat they owe us has been declared bad debt by anglo's board and i want it back

What do those 10 people have to do with Anglo's bad debt?