22000's start on the east coast route today

Run_to_da_hills

The 1st of the 22,000's start on the Wexford line today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0217/breaking33.htm

loyatemu

unless you're posting from the future, its actually tomorrow they'll be running.

KC61

The 0600 Gorey/Connolly and 1640 Connolly/Gorey will now be 22000 operated, a good PR move by IÉ given that many people could be tempted by the improved Bus Éireann services.

This also means that the 0905 Connolly/Sligo and 1300 Sligo/Connolly will be 22000 operated, meaning that the 29000 Commuter sets will only operate on Sundays on this route on the 1305 and 1505 Connolly/Sligo and 1700 and 1900 Sligo/Connolly.

Run_to_da_hills

loyatemu wrote: »

unless you're posting from the future, its actually tomorrow they'll be running.

Reading this mornings Metro, says today.

Has anyone seen them yet?

KC61

It would be a tad difficult given that the line around Bray Head does not reopen until tomorrow (Thursday)!

Surely you don't believe everything that you read in the papers? :-)

Zoney

I've used them out of Limerick a number of times. Perhaps not as smooth a ride as old Mk3 intercities, and the catering aspect is poor for intercity, but in every other regard these trains are a dream. They are aesthetically comfortable inside, lighting just right, a good temperature, and you have wall power sockets for your laptop under every table (so you can arrive at your destination with a fully charged laptop despite using it on the journey). I am a fan of the 2+2 seating with table too, and lining up the seats with the windows. It makes for a quite pleasant journey.

The displays for assigned seating are useful (no miserable "reserved" paper leaflets) but it's a bit odd having one's name displayed in such a public manner on the train.

I haven't been on very busy ones, so I don't know what they are like crammed with passengers.

thomasj

KC61 wrote: »

The 0600 Gorey/Connolly and 1640 Connolly/Gorey will now be 22000 operated, a good PR move by IÉ given that many people could be tempted by the improved Bus Éireann services.

This also means that the 0905 Connolly/Sligo and 1300 Sligo/Connolly will be 22000 operated, meaning that the 29000 Commuter sets will only operate on Sundays on this route on the 1305 and 1505 Connolly/Sligo and 1700 and 1900 Sligo/Connolly.

Does this mean the Maynooth line will finally get the increased capacity is desperately needs with the 29ks offloaded of the ESE line?

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Reading this mornings Metro, says today.

Has anyone seen them yet?

Got one to Galway and back recently. They are nice trains, certainly better than the other commuter ones they will replace.

Going down to Galways was pleasent but the AC wasn't on on the way back and it was horrible. No point having all this fancy stuff on baord if they won't turn it on:pac:

Judgement Day

Well here we go again more old crap from IE. Why on earth would they introduce 'Inter-City' railcars on a Commuter run? Nobody else posting here or on IRN seems to see the stupidity of this. Apart from anything else the units will suffer the wear and tear that commuters, packed in like sardines, will have on them. When the Mk III's were introduced nothing would do CIE but to use them on GAA specials almost immediately!!

Apart from this the new 22000s should be allocated to the genuine inter-city workings from Rosslare Harbour to Connolly but this is CIE/IE and nothing is ever going to change with this bunch of incompetents! :mad::mad:

KC61

thomasj wrote: »

Does this mean the Maynooth line will finally get the increased capacity is desperately needs with the 29ks offloaded of the ESE line?

No, the 22K set that they are using was operating on the Dublin/Kildare route so it's a straight swap for the 29K that it replaces.

Cian R

Does this mean the line is open from Bray-Rosslare from tomorrow??

Judgement Day

Yes.

alpha2zulu

They really are excellent long distance trains in almost all areas.The only thing that will grate you is a barrage of computer generated announcements in irish and english before and after every stop! Anybody that has travelled on them will know what I mean:D

kingshankly

theese trains are without doubt the most comfortable railcars in service and are capable of going at higher speeds than the 29s.

Run_to_da_hills

How are they for baggage, bicycles, large parcels etc?

Is there the equivilant of guards van space?

kingshankly

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

How are they for baggage, bicycles, large parcels etc?

Is there the equivilant of guards van space?

small space for luggage but nothing for larger items.no fast track to worry about soon enough

dowlingm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well here we go again more old crap from IE. Why on earth would they introduce 'Inter-City' railcars on a Commuter run? Nobody else posting here or on IRN seems to see the stupidity of this.

Some of these 22Ks were actually intended to replace Mk3 pushpulls. There is some merit in having outer suburban/regional cars - with more of an IC fit with inner suburban/DART, the latter being more optimised to standees and high density seating.

dowlingm

kingshankly wrote: »

theese trains are without doubt the most comfortable railcars in service and are capable of going at higher speeds than the 29s.

Does the line speed south of Greystones allow the 22s to show their speed advantage over the 29s? If so, what are the odds that the timetable will be retuned to reflect that (I'm guessing - slim).

kingshankly

dowlingm wrote: »

Does the line speed south of Greystones allow the 22s to show their speed advantage over the 29s? If so, what are the odds that the timetable will be retuned to reflect that (I'm guessing - slim).

no the linespeed doesnt cater for higher speed on this road the max speed is 70 and only in certain places. but if they went on the northern road we could see them up to 90mph

Carawaystick

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well here we go again more old crap from IE. Why on earth would they introduce 'Inter-City' railcars on a Commuter run?

Ah I dunno, maybe cos for a 2 hour journey each way a bit of comfort might be nice?

Run_to_da_hills

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well here we go again more old crap from IE. Why on earth would they introduce 'Inter-City' railcars on a Commuter run? Nobody else posting here or on IRN seems to see the stupidity of this. Apart from anything else the units will suffer the wear and tear that

Because they bought far too many of them, For years we had real "mainline" trains I.E a pair of 121's with spacious Cravens on the Wexford line. If they were to use the M3's with 201's they would spend the rest of their days repairing tracks. The 29,000's are just that bit too "suburban" for that route.

Judgement Day

There is No guard - No guards van space - No Fastrack from 31st March - No Selective Door Opening - No 1st Class in most sets - No proper buffet/dining cars - No view out through the driving trailer (unlike the 1950s AEC railcars which were a genuine improvement on the ancient stock that they replaced). There are wheels, overpriced catering trollies (on some services) and OK they are better than the Commuter tin cans they replaced but that is not saying much. The annoying on-train announcements are standard on all inter-city trains now.

KC61

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Because they bought far too many of them, For years we had real "mainline" trains I.E a pair of 121's with spacious Cravens on the Wexford line. If they were to use the M3's with 201's they would spend the rest of their days repairing tracks. The 29,000's are just that bit too "suburban" for that route.

Actually they haven't bought "far too many" 22000 sets. If anything there are not enough. A detailed examination of sets and potential services proves this to be the case.

This train is operating a return journey each day to Sligo, replacing a 29000 set. Around that it is operating two services to/from Gorey.

Better to see it getting full utilisation.

Run_to_da_hills

Judgement Day wrote: »

There is No guard - No guards van space - No Fastrack from 31st March - No Selective Door Opening - No 1st Class in most sets - No proper buffet/dining cars - No view out through the driving trailer (unlike the 1950s AEC railcars which were a genuine improvement on the ancient stock that they replaced). There are wheels, overpriced catering trolleys (on some services) and OK they are better than the Commuter tin cans they replaced but that is not saying much. The annoying on-train announcements are standard on all inter-city trains now.

You forgot to mention that the 22;000 are fitted with "state of the art" CCTV. an improvement on earlier rolling stock.

It use to annoy me going to school when drivers would pull down the blinds in the cabs of the AEC's so we couldn't see out. :mad: I could remember looking at the large chronometric speedometer.

Carawaystick

the new trains are wheelchair accessible, and you can get off them without opening a window and reaching out to use the handle on the outside of the train, there's probably no steam billowing out by the doors either, and when it rains, it is unlikely to pour in on some unsuspecting passenger, unlike the cravens.

Why would you want a guards van space while passenger space is limited?

eas

If they do offer more seating capacity, why would they choose the less busy services to for these trains?

KC61

eas wrote: »

If they do offer more seating capacity, why would they choose the less busy services to for these trains?

There was only one 3 piece 22000 set available, and it has gone onto a roster that was operated by a 4 piece commuter set, where the seating capacities are very similar.

The other services on the Rosslare route are operated by 6 piece commuter units (2800s) that have obviously greater capacity than this 3 piece set. The platforms at certain stations on the Rosslare route are not long enough to accomodate a 6 piece 22000 set and in one location (Rathdrum) cannot be lengthened any further. For the moment the other services are to remain in the hands of 2800s. There is talk that the 1305 to Rosslare and 1740 return may switch to a 3 piece 22000 in the short term.

I would imagine that the 0535 ex-Rosslare and the 1726 ex-Connolly will both remain as 6 piece 2800 sets due to the high loadings, with the other trains being operated by 3 piece 22000 sets with the possibility of at least one additional return working on the route, but that is only a guess. Personally I would think that there would have to be extra services, as a 3 piece 22000 would not cope with the loadings.

However, all of this is dependant on the remaining sets being delivered and commissioned into service. IÉ are seeking tenders to implement "Selective Door Opening" on these units, and this would facilitate 6 coach 22000 operations.

Judgement Day

Carawaystick wrote: »

the new trains are wheelchair accessible, and you can get off them without opening a window and reaching out to use the handle on the outside of the train, there's probably no steam billowing out by the doors either, and when it rains, it is unlikely to pour in on some unsuspecting passenger, unlike the cravens.

Why would you want a guards van space while passenger space is limited?

Yes, it was such an incredible hardship having to open a window to open the door from the outside! People had managed it quite successfully since before railways began as the design was passed down from stage coaches. Cravens had opening windows for real air and nice cosy steam heating - they were not that prone to leaking roofs (that was the problem with the AEC push-pull railcar conversions) - were accompanied by a steam heating van with oodles of luggage space for mail/parcels and bikes! The new 22000s have been designed by imbeciles taking no account of the need to maximise revenue, and the omission of SDO is beyond belief!

Stupido

kingshankly wrote: »

theese trains are without doubt the most comfortable railcars in service and are capable of going at higher speeds than the 29s.

you mean we could see an Irish train break the 60kmph barrier???

Cookie_Monster

Stupido wrote: »

you mean we could see an Irish train break the 60kmph barrier???

This only happens every day:rolleyes:

kingshankly

Stupido wrote: »

you mean we could see an Irish train break the 60kmph barrier???

i can assure you trains here go a lot faster than 60kph some reach speeds of 160kph

Chris_533976

My GPS recorded 140 on the Galway to Dublin train near where it crosses the M7.

25kmh through Portarlington though.

steamengine

I assume it's ok to bump this thread as it's been included in this forum. Do the rail fraternity here think that the bar has been set very conservatively regarding line speeds in Ireland, which I understand is 90 mph - correct me if it is more than this. Some of my lot travelled on a Portuguese Intercity the other day which showed a digital read-out in the carriages of 220 kph or 140mph ? Will we ever see these speeds or even 125 mph as the Intercity norm in Ireland and what is required generally to achieve these standards ?

CIE

steamengine wrote: »

I assume it's ok to bump this thread as it's been included in this forum. Do the rail fraternity here think that the bar has been set very conservatively regarding line speeds in Ireland, which I understand is 90 mph - correct me if it is more than this. Some of my lot travelled on a Portuguese Intercity the other day which showed a digital read-out in the carriages of 220 kph or 140mph? Will we ever see these speeds or even 125 mph as the Intercity norm in Ireland and what is required generally to achieve these standards?

Not if it's up to the establishment in Dublin, no. Doesn't matter that this is normal practice in other countries, doesn't matter that it shows how far behind the government forces Ireland to be in terms of railway technology, doesn't matter that Ireland's already had Mark 3s (which have been 200 km/h cars for decades) or Mark 4s (not the same as UK ones, but still supposed to be 140-mph capable which makes the CAF ones a joke and three-quarters).

BTW, 220 km/h = 136.7 mph.

dowlingm

Line speed on Dublin-Cork is 100mph/160kmph, Portarlington-Galway and Cherryville-Waterford is 80mph/128kmph. It's the Belfast line that is 90mph, the bits NIR and IE haven't let fall to bits at any rate.

As for bumping the thread - thanks VERY much steamengine for making me think IE had finally cleared 22Ks for operations Connolly-Dundalk or better yet Newry. :rolleyes:

cocoshovel

dowlingm wrote: »

Cherryville-Waterford is 80mph/128kmph.

Sorry for straying off topic but
This is the speed where I live. Must be about 100km/h? It often depends on how on time the train going in the opposite direction is though. Is there anywhere I can find out the designated speeds for each area? Ive often wondered why we don't have speed posts/signs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgSOwrTH9JQ

flyingsnail

cocoshovel wrote: »

Sorry for straying off topic but
This is the speed where I live. Must be about 100km/h? It often depends on how on time the train going in the opposite direction is though. Is there anywhere I can find out the designated speeds for each area? Ive often wondered why we don't have speed posts/signs

There are speed sign posts on the railway, usually on the left when travelling forward. As for the list of speed restrictions you would need to get a copy of the working time table, they occasionally turn up on eBay.

The yellow sign on the left is the speed limit.
[URL="[IMG]http://i55.tinypic.com/334ubtg.jpg[/IMG]"][/URL]

steamengine

CIE wrote: »

Not if it's up to the establishment in Dublin, no. Doesn't matter that this is normal practice in other countries, doesn't matter that it shows how far behind the government forces Ireland to be in terms of railway technology, doesn't matter that Ireland's already had Mark 3s (which have been 200 km/h cars for decades) or Mark 4s (not the same as UK ones, but still supposed to be 140-mph capable which makes the CAF ones a joke and three-quarters).

BTW, 220 km/h = 136.7 mph.

Indeed, and clearly increasing line speeds to the European norm is not on the 'to do' list, as would be indicated by the acquisition of the 22000's with a max speed of 100mph. What prompted my post was my son's Portuguese railway experience, as Portugal is not one of the more well off nations in Europe and yet they have achieved it.

steamengine

dowlingm wrote: »

Line speed on Dublin-Cork is 100mph/160kmph, Portarlington-Galway and Cherryville-Waterford is 80mph/128kmph. It's the Belfast line that is 90mph, the bits NIR and IE haven't let fall to bits at any rate.

As for bumping the thread - thanks VERY much steamengine for making me think IE had finally cleared 22Ks for operations Connolly-Dundalk or better yet Newry. :rolleyes:

Thanks for that, steamengine is in learning mode !;) Is the intention then to get Dublin-Belfast to 100mph also ? What's the problem with the 22k's on the Northern ?

steamengine

steamengine wrote: »

I assume it's ok to bump this thread as it's been included in this forum. Do the rail fraternity here think that the bar has been set very conservatively regarding line speeds in Ireland, which I understand is 90 mph - correct me if it is more than this. Some of my lot travelled on a Portuguese Intercity the other day which showed a digital read-out in the carriages of 220 kph or 140mph ? Will we ever see these speeds or even 125 mph as the Intercity norm in Ireland and what is required generally to achieve these standards ?

To be honest, I don't think it matters much. Having 125 mph stretches won't be much good when we still have slacks at 60, 40 or even 25. Removing these slacks would deliver more of a benefit in my opinion.

steamengine

flyingsnail wrote: »

There are speed sign posts on the railway, usually on the left when travelling forward. As for the list of speed restrictions you would need to get a copy of the working time table, they occasionally turn up on eBay.

The yellow sign on the left is the speed limit.

Without quoting the photo, and a brilliant photo it is -

The 60 mph restriction coincides with the curve in the track.

Is the restriction there because the cant or superelevation isn't sufficient for a higher speed ?

By further superelevation could the section of track in the photo handle a train at (a) 100 mph (b) 125 mph, or do these type of curves have to be 'ironed out' for a high speed system ?

roundymac

The yellow sign on the left is the speed limit.
[/QUOTE]

That speed limit, is that kph or mph?

roundymac

roundymac wrote: »

That speed limit, is that kph or mph?

Miles per hour

Drimnagh Road

The few 100 mph sections I know are (open to corrections and additions of course);

• about 8 miles of 100mph running between Portarlington and Portlaoise.

• a relatively long section beteen Limerick Junction and Charleville.

There used to be 100 mph running between Cherryville Junction and just outside Portarlington, but that has had a permanent 75mph limit slapped on it, the same speed that road vehicles in the adjacent M7 are travelling.

steamengine

Can we look forward to something like this in the future with the 22000's at speed through curves, or are they doing it already ???

CIE

Is that the Class 221 tilting "Super Voyager"? 200 km/h top speed and the tilting mechanism that can allow faster speeds through curves without knocking people over...must be too advanced for Ireland...

steamengine

It may be ok, but it appears to be non-tilting to me in the video. Basically picked it as it's diesel electric and negotiating a curve at speed and non-tilting (I think).

flyingsnail

steamengine wrote: »

Without quoting the photo, and a brilliant photo it is -

The 60 mph restriction coincides with the curve in the track.

Is the restriction there because the cant or superelevation isn't sufficient for a higher speed ?

By further superelevation could the section of track in the photo handle a train at (a) 100 mph (b) 125 mph, or do these type of curves have to be 'ironed out' for a high speed system ?

That photo was taken just south of Limerick Junction. From there the line forms a sort of elongated S shape. The speed restriction is in place from 107 1/2 to 108 1/4 where it rises to 90 which seems to coincide with the end of the S shape (at least from what I can see on Google earth) I don't know if super elevation would work there.

Most if not all trains passing that sign will have stopped at Limerick Junction and will be accelerating away from the station and trains in the up direction will be slowing down to stop at the junction. Unless there is a radical change in the stopping patterns of the Dublin to Cork trains any increase in line speed there would see little to no change in journey times.

dowlingm

Google Irish Rail Network Statement for a list of speeds/PSRs plus other interesting stuff like platform lengths. Some of it has to be taken with a pinch of salt - like Athenry-Tuam, Athlone-Mullingar being notionally open to traffic etc.

@steamengine as best I can tell a few gauge testing runs have been done but there's no sign of them going into service. This may change when the new sets go into service. There may also be commissioning work required to allow Drogheda depot to look after 22s but this may already be dealt with.

Ideally, the assigned sets would be 22001-06 which are fitted with TPWS. Ideally the Newry run would be done at 90mph in the mornings rather than the current 75 or so which the 29000 fleet is limited to, in addition to being a much faster replacement for dead Enterprise sets than the aforementioned 29s.

Judgement Day

steamengine wrote: »

Can we look forward to something like this in the future with the 22000's at speed through curves, or are they doing it already ???

Far more likely to see something like this in the near future as Manulla/Ballina, Wexford/Rosslare, Waterford/Limerick Junction and Limerick/Ballybrophy end up on the scrapheap.


Foynes station - looked after under IE's care and maintenance programme. :rolleyes:

steamengine

dowlingm wrote: »

Google Irish Rail Network Statement for a list of speeds/PSRs plus other interesting stuff like platform lengths. Some of it has to be taken with a pinch of salt - like Athenry-Tuam, Athlone-Mullingar being notionally open to traffic etc.

@steamengine as best I can tell a few gauge testing runs have been done but there's no sign of them going into service. This may change when the new sets go into service. There may also be commissioning work required to allow Drogheda depot to look after 22s but this may already be dealt with.

Ideally, the assigned sets would be 22001-06 which are fitted with TPWS. Ideally the Newry run would be done at 90mph in the mornings rather than the current 75 or so which the 29000 fleet is limited to, in addition to being a much faster replacement for dead Enterprise sets than the aforementioned 29s.

Interesting reading their network statement ok - As regards Dublin to Cork I totted up 423/4 miles of 100mph running, the best of the rest is really 90 mph interspersed with 80 and 70. Does anyone know why all these speed restrictions are in place ???

BTW I like the map showing where the hot box detectors are located. Remember donkeys years ago the Sunday evening Cork bound train stopping somewhere near Ballybrophy and one of the train crew declaring a 'hot box' and throwing the rest of the journey into doubt. How and never after much to-ing and fro-ing and a long committee meeting around the box in question we battered on and there was no more about it.