Bus drivers approve industrial action

paulm17781

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnsncwcwgb/

it begins...

Zoney

The cutbacks are rather crude it would seem, and regressive in terms of the idea of encouraging public transport use, and also may affect some people who are marginalised enough as it is. However, I'm now no longer in favour of action by these workers or any others, because it's starting to look like we won't actually have a functioning country shortly if things get much worse. Who cares about cutbacks if the alternative is the transport system shutting down completely in a couple of months (or even weeks?)

The government cutbacks, however incompetent (e.g. lower paid public sector workers a greater % out of pocket than higher paid when tax reliefs taken into account) will probably very soon look like a drop in the ocean. Even public sector workers should be seriously thinking about whether it's better to accept cuts, or face the prospect of temporarily not being paid at all and then lots of them losing jobs completely when the country has terms dictated to it after a "bail out".

ITDept

Bus drivers to stage one-day strike on February 28th... www.irishtimes.com

I don't need to use the bus that day. Hooray!

...or any other day for the foreseeable future after that as I'm being made jobless... Hoorooh!

thomasj

ITDept wrote: »

Bus drivers to stage one-day strike on February 28th... www.irishtimes.com

I don't need to use the bus that day. Hooray!

...or any other day for the foreseeable future after that as I'm being made jobless... Hoorooh!

and another 2 planned for the 8th and 9th of march

Fletch123

Thomasj- it's actually 9th and 10th of March, a Monday and Tuesday which sucks.

thomasj

Fletch123 wrote: »

Thomasj- it's actually 9th and 10th of March, a Monday and Tuesday which sucks.

nightmare. I will be taking the train but it is going to be hell both days. Its worse for those who dont have the rail option

thanks for clearing up fletch

Devilman

The 28th is going to be interesting as Ireland play England at Croke Park.

AlekSmart

The 28th is going to be interesting as Ireland play England at Croke Park.
Today

Not really as the reality of Croke Park is that Dublin Bus withdraws its services as far back from the stadium as it can in the lead up to a match/concert.

The total lack of any Public Transport aspect in the Croke Park redevelopment plan remains a striking example of why the Department of Transport and its hapless Minister need to be locked up,and quick.

Routes such as the 46A and 145 which terminate at Mountjoy Square are pulled back to Parnell Square due to the Gardai and Dublin City Council being "unable" to guarantee access for public transport.

The location of Croke Park is in itself a Public Transport free zone with NO services operating to or even past it.
The existance of Croke Parks GAA Museum and the adjacent Jury`s Inn still failed to excite any interest in either Dublin Bus or the Civic Authorities in providing such a service,although 20 years ago the 23 route terminated directly underneath the hogan stand...so much for progress...National Development Plan and Transport 21 how are ye !!! :cool:

wilson10

Industrial action ?

Surely it should be called "industrial inaction"

Carawaystick

AlekSmart wrote: »

The location of Croke Park is in itself a Public Transport free zone with NO services operating to or even past it.
The existance of Croke Parks GAA Museum and the adjacent Jury`s Inn still failed to excite any interest in either Dublin Bus or the Civic Authorities in providing such a service,although 20 years ago the 23 route terminated directly underneath the hogan stand...so much for progress...National Development Plan and Transport 21 how are ye !!! :cool:

There's a rail line running services at weekends just outside the hill and another line runs under the Davin stand, but no services run on weekends.....

AlekSmart

The rail lines are specifically prevented from being utilized during Fixtures at the Ground.

This I believe,is due to "Crowd Control" issues with the Gardai.

Instead the Croke Park Rail services tend to utilize Drumcondra Station where one can Really appreciate the meaning of the term "Crowd Control" as a full trainload of wild eyed GAA/Metallica fans stampede for the ONE door leading out to Drumcondra....only to meet with the Passengers disembarking from the Dublin Bus routes stopping DIRECTLY outside this single Door.......:eek:.

However it appears that the Gardai do not consider this practice to be in any way odd,abberant or just plain idiotic so it continues unabated.

dub_commuter

According to what I heard today, they will publish the bills on 27th February and will give to the public later that day. If that is the case, thats a disgrace, and DB should put the operative date back until enough notice is given. However this tactic has been used before by operators in Europe, in order to prevent any backlash prior to the operative date by implementing it at short notice.

Whilst there are various problems with the big operators in the UK, most of them give a good few weeks notice of any changes. First companies even have a separate dedicated "Forthcoming Timetables" section on their website. All too often when Dublin Bus change the timetables they announce it, and then say it will be available on the website a few days before implemented, they should always publish both rather than the waiting.

tedstriker

High Public Sector Wages + Risk of Job Loss = Industrial action

These guys are just getting their word in early because over the next few months half the country will be on strike.

Cool Mo D

AlekSmart wrote: »

The rail lines are specifically prevented from being utilized during Fixtures at the Ground.

This I believe,is due to "Crowd Control" issues with the Gardai.

Instead the Croke Park Rail services tend to utilize Drumcondra Station where one can Really appreciate the meaning of the term "Crowd Control" as a full trainload of wild eyed GAA/Metallica fans stampede for the ONE door leading out to Drumcondra....only to meet with the Passengers disembarking from the Dublin Bus routes stopping DIRECTLY outside this single Door.......:eek:.

However it appears that the Gardai do not consider this practice to be in any way odd,abberant or just plain idiotic so it continues unabated.

To be fair, Drumcondra Station is as close as you could want for Croke Park anyway. If the Metro goes ahead, it's due to get a long everdue remodelling to handle crowds on match day.

Victor

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0217/transport.html

Bus drivers to stage one-day strike
watch Tuesday, 17 February 2009 20:20

Bus drivers at Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus will mount a one-day strike on Saturday 28 February in protest at 600 planned redundancies at the two State companies.

The decision was taken at a meeting of the national executive of the National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU) this afternoon.

A further two-day strike is planned for 9 and 10 March.
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NBRU General Secretary Michael Faherty said the stoppage on 28 February would coincide with the sacking of 160 drivers at Dublin Bus.

Mr Faherty said: 'The drivers want to do something to support those being let go.

'Targeting new drivers on probation as an easy option to introduce cuts is an unfair and lazy way to make savings, and also impacts on the travelling public.

'The planned cuts and withdrawal of services will decimate rural Ireland, in particular the young, elderly, and unemployed who can't afford private transport.'

In a statement Dublin Bus says it has not yet received official notification of any industrial action by the drivers' unions.

The company says it has no choice but to implement the cost-cutting plan at the start of next month.

The Minister for Transport has said in the Dáil that he wants an efficient, effective transport service for the country, which meets the needs of customers.

Noel Dempsey said he had secured an investment of over €313m and there was not anymore money to give to the bus and rail companies.

He was responding to Labour Deputy Tommy Broughan who said the workers at Dublin Bus had voted to go on strike because of his handling of public transport policy. He asked the Minister why there was no voluntary redundancy option at Dublin Bus.

Taxi drivers staged another protest in Dublin today calling for a moratorium on new licences, as they say there is not enough work for the number of drivers now available in Dublin.

wilson10

tedstriker wrote: »

High Public Sector Wages + Risk of Job Loss = Industrial action

These guys are just getting their word in early because over the next few months half the country will be on strike.

No, not half the country, just half the public service.

My son won't be on strike because he took a 20% pay cut and hopes that the company will survive and he'll still have a job.

My wife won't be on strike because she lost her job 2 weeks ago due to the downturn and her pension is worth 40% less than she put in.

I won't be on strike because I'm self employed and I'm too busy chasing work and debtors.

shltter

dub_commuter wrote: »

According to what I heard today, they will publish the bills on 27th February and will give to the public later that day. If that is the case, thats a disgrace, and DB should put the operative date back until enough notice is given. However this tactic has been used before by operators in Europe, in order to prevent any backlash prior to the operative date by implementing it at short notice.

Whilst there are various problems with the big operators in the UK, most of them give a good few weeks notice of any changes. First companies even have a separate dedicated "Forthcoming Timetables" section on their website. All too often when Dublin Bus change the timetables they announce it, and then say it will be available on the website a few days before implemented, they should always publish both rather than the waiting.

The bills have already been shown to the unions

They include changes in work practise and terms and conditions that have not been negotiated or agreed to.

Presuming the company goes ahead and fires the 160 drivers they will presumably try to implement the new bills on the 1st these bills have no agreement.
The company will not have the staff to operate the current bills.

If staff refuse to work new unagreed bills my guess is that they will be suspended on the 1st and those routes will have no service from then till the dispute is settled.
I would presume that suspensions will lead to all out strike but you never know.

Interestingly the company is advertising for part time drivers and for drivers willing to take career breaks this is at the same time they have given termination letters to 160 drivers.
It should also be noted that the company is also planning on implementing the 48 hour week as part of its cost cutting proposals. Less than 2 years ago the company said that they would need an EXTRA 160 staff to implement the 48 hour week. Now they can do it while cutting staff and looking for staff to take career breaks and go part time.

It makes no sense at all they are playing games it is time they came out and said what the true position is and not try to use a recession and the threat of redundancies to try and row back working conditions to 50 years ago.

loyatemu

shltter wrote: »

It should also be noted that the company is also planning on implementing the 48 hour week as part of its cost cutting proposals. Less than 2 years ago the company said that they would need an EXTRA 160 staff to implement the 48 hour week. Now they can do it while cutting staff and looking for staff to take career breaks and go part time.

well they're cutting services due to decreased demand, so it no mystery that they can introduce shorter hours without needing extra staff. 48 hours sounds like a sensible maximum for someone driving a bus TBH - whats the current max?

I think we're entering a period of serious upheaval on the buses - DB network and operating practises need serious reform. Its quite possible that a better service could be provided with fewer resources, though just cutting services from the existing network obviously isn't going to achieve this....

shltter

loyatemu wrote: »

well they're cutting services due to decreased demand, so it no mystery that they can introduce shorter hours without needing extra staff. 48 hours sounds like a sensible maximum for someone driving a bus TBH - whats the current max?

I think we're entering a period of serious upheaval on the buses - DB network and operating practises need serious reform. Its quite possible that a better service could be provided with fewer resources, though just cutting services from the existing network obviously isn't going to achieve this....

No they are removing the staff for the services they are removing so they will not be any better off staff wise.
Currently there are overtime duties,restdays,covering sickdays, holidays, nitelinks,standbys, all done on overtime especially during summer months some drivers would be working over 60 hours a week whether that is right or wrong is not the issue. The issue is how can all those hours be covered with less drivers ????

thomasj

It gets worse http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0218/transport.html

SIPTU shop stewards have decided that there will be an all-out strike at Dublin Bus from 1 March if management pushes forward with cost-cutting measures.

The union made the decision after receiving a mandate from its members.

Yesterday, bus drivers at Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus said they would mount a one-day strike on Saturday 28 February in protest at 600 planned redundancies at the two State companies.

A further two-day strike was planned for 9 and 10 March.

Separately, Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey has told the Oireachtas transport committee that passengers have been deserting CIÉ bus services at a dramatic rate over the last six to eight months.

He said that was despite the Government giving it €313m in public money - a subsidy that was up 34% since 2002.

The minister also warned that the CIÉ bus companies could lose €100m this year unless costs were cut.

Mr Dempsey said nobody wanted to see bus strikes but there had to be reform.

Tipsy Mac

Why don't the bus drivers do their job but refuse to accept fares from customers, this will keep the public on side.

Vic_08

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Why don't the bus drivers do their job but refuse to accept fares from customers, this will keep the public on side.

Because taking fares is part of the job, allowing and encouraging people to fare-evade would be grounds for disiplinary action up to dsimissal.

Besides when the poor financial state of the company is the main reason for this situation operating a full days service without generating any revenue is not going to help.

We already carry far too many people who don't pay as it is

Frank007

Because taking fares is part of the job, allowing and encouraging people to fare-evade would be grounds for disiplinary action up to dsimissal.

I remember drivers refused to take fares before, about 6-7 years ago over some industrial dispute

Vic_08

Frank007 wrote: »

I remember drivers refused to take fares before, about 6-7 years ago over some industrial dispute

Back then the company weren't trying to sack large numbers, they are now and giving them a valid reason to do so (particularly in the case of un-appointed drivers) would not be clever.

Besides as things stand now from March 01 the unappointed drivers will be sacked. To give free fares to passengers they would effectively have to trespass on company property, steal buses and drive them around the city offering lifts to people.

Frank007

my theory on Dublin bus differs from most. If you ask most people why they dont take the bus they will say that you never know when one is coming and that you could be waiting for ages.

The fact that they are cutting services and running less buses on certain routes will only exacerbate these reasons for not using buses.

My theory is that if they were to put on more buses and guaranteed buses every 5-10-15 mins, depending on the route and time off day, that this would actually increase the amount of people using the bus because it would be a lot more reliable.

Another thing, I know its on the way but it is long overdue, the electronic signs that tell the passenger when the next bus is arriving like the ones you see on the luas and on the dart will help inspire a bit of confidence in the bus service

AlekSmart

There is quite a lot of disinformation concerning this 48Hr week issue and all sorts of over the top reactions.

It is known as the EU Working Time Directive and has it`s origins somewhat bizzarrely in Germany where it was introduced to stem some unsavoury work practices in the country`s rag-trade.

It seems that unscrupulous German employers were forcing Turkish migrants to work mad hours for little money whilst holding them to equally wild "contracts of employment"

The 48Hr Maximum Working Week was thus introduced some years ago for ALL workers with the EXCEPTION of certain grades of Mobile Workers including Bus Drivers,a derogation sought and maintained by the large European State Transport operators Deutsche Bahn,SNCF,RENFE and FS to name a few.

This derogation expired almost 2 years ago now and the WTD became law for ALL workers.

However,as with most EU law there was some degree of flexibility with regard to the level at which it was to be implemented.
Ireland,as the Good Boys of Europe opted for the most restrictive interpretation which saw the 48 Hoursd averaged over 17 weeks and referenced it to ALL work carried out by an individual including some types of voluntary work.

One of the problems with Bus/Coach driving was the high level of shift working and equivalent-hours situations,ie:the almost total absence of a 9 to 5 day,5 days a week environment.

Not surprisingly the UK Public Transport industry,which for decades had operated almost universally on VERY low wage rates but equally unlimited overtime,lobbied for a looser interpretation of the WTD and in the meantime most public transport employers essentially required new entrants to sign a "voluntary" opt-out from the benefits of the WTD

Now this option proved popular with both Employers and Employees,who were used to unlimited overtime as the sole means of achieveing a living wage BUT it went down like a lead baloon in Brussels as it was felt the UK Government was not exactly implimenting the wishes of the EU Commission in this matter.

HMG were far more concerned about the WTD`s strict restrictions having a serious effect on the countrys competitiveness especially among companies which had a high degree of seasonal overtime,therefore an Admiral Nelson attitude prevailed......Eye Patch on and look into the telescope !

The stand-off finally ended late 2008 when the EU Commission blinked,especially as the major Employer Groups on the "mainland" began to ask for the same largesse as was being shown to the UK`s employers.

SO.......after a long and bruising series of meetings a form of words emerged which has thrown the ENTIRE Working Time Directive back to the EU Commission and Parliament for "Redrafting" to include a less restrictive working hours regieme essentially based around a 60 Hour norm.

In return for this concession,however,the dastardly Brits did agree to a trade off by accepting the Commissions proposals to extend a number of employment securities such as Maternity/Paternity leave for Temporary/Part-Time workers heretofore not covered as well as securing new holiday pay and pension concesions,so it was a good days work all round.

HOWEVER.....In the context of the current Bus Eireann-Dublin Bus situation it raises all sorts of questions as to what piece of leglislation we are now actually discussing,if the original 48Hr WTD is now defunct ?

If the company is saying its current bills reflect this 48Hr requirement then it has to be asked what the new draft of the WTD will require of it ?

There is even an increasing suspicion that the 160 drivers may have been employed specifically to let go again and thus force the Trade`s Unions into dealing with a perfect storm in labour relations terms.

Minister Dempsey has been somewhat slow to flesh out his "Seamus Brennanish" flights of PR fancy in recent days.
At Tuesdays SIPTU audience he somewhat sheepishly admitted that Government Subvention to Public Transport was indeed well below the EU norm.
Indeed in terms of the €300 Million figure there has been no reference to the very definite skew towards the Railway aspects of the funding.

Mr Dempsey has also been unable to thwart the increasing derision being directed at his assertions that securing a modal shift of some 500,000 souls from Private to Public transport is far less realistic if one withdraws over 250 buses and the staff to operate them from the existing system.

Mr Dempsey has instead continued with a somewhat strained mantra about the "Collapse" in Bus Passenger figures whilst failing to concede that his Departments role in the setting and maintaining of a hugely unfriendly Fare-Stage system along with the continuing reluctance to fund the necessary elements of the RTPI systems necessary to attract any substantial new business to public transport.

Take for example the situation of the 84X from Newtownmountkennedy.
Local Bus Atha Cliath management propose to withdraw the 07.10 service because of poor passenger uptake.
However there is almost no mention of any initiative to market the service as probably the cheapest form of reliable public bus service as it can cost as little as €1.80 each way when utilizing a Travel90 smartcard......Is Bus Atha Cliath`s marketing department so devoid of talent that it cannot find 20 persons per day in the greater Newtownmountkennedy area who appreciate a Transport bargain if it was made known to them?

It should be noted that all of the medium term trends for Motoring Expenses are now back on an upward slope with Petrol and Insurance and quite soon Road Tax soon to raise again.

There are also some allegations floating around concerning unhealthily close relationships between Motor Insustry people and Meath based public representatives which if substantiated could be embarrassing for a Minister whose "Official" stance is the Reduction of private car useage.

However,it must be remembered that such contradictions are the essence of Fianna Fàil as a party and have not caused it any problems in the past. :eek:

Frank007 has the correct handle on this...The Carrot........

My theory is that if they were to put on more buses and guaranteed buses every 5-10-15 mins, depending on the route and time off day, that this would actually increase the amount of people using the bus because it would be a lot more reliable.

Which also demands a commensurate Stick...Over to you Minister D.

Vic_08

Frank007 wrote: »

my theory on Dublin bus differs from most.

No it doesn't.

I assure you most of the operating staff would agree with you.

I am a Bus Eireann driver but the situation is broadly similar.

Along with most of my colleagues I can clearly see where a lot of the basic problems are with the service and could outline dozens of relatively minor, cheap and quick (departmental licencing issues excepted) fixes that would make huge differences to the quality and attractiveness of the service.

Unfortunately senior management, civil service, government, law enforcement (and even IMO to a large extent the unions) are not at all interested in our opinions or concerns about the service.

in light of that all we can do is turn up for work, do the best we can that circumstances allow, put in the hours (in the case of BE often very long hours) and go home as after all it is just a job. A job that I like doing and am mostly proud of and one I would very much like to be able to do better but I have no intention of giving myself hypertension trying to push against a system that is quite obviously being strangled from the top.

ixoy

Vic_08 wrote: »

Along with most of my colleagues I can clearly see where a lot of the basic problems are with the service and could outline dozens of relatively minor, cheap and quick (departmental licencing issues excepted) fixes that would make huge differences to the quality and attractiveness of the service.

What sort of changes would you implement? Would they drive cost down or would they more aimed at increasing revenue?

antoinolachtnai

Frank007 wrote: »

my theory on Dublin bus differs from most. If you ask most people why they dont take the bus they will say that you never know when one is coming and that you could be waiting for ages.

The fact that they are cutting services and running less buses on certain routes will only exacerbate these reasons for not using buses.

My theory is that if they were to put on more buses and guaranteed buses every 5-10-15 mins, depending on the route and time off day, that this would actually increase the amount of people using the bus because it would be a lot more reliable.

Another thing, I know its on the way but it is long overdue, the electronic signs that tell the passenger when the next bus is arriving like the ones you see on the luas and on the dart will help inspire a bit of confidence in the bus service

Removing drivers doesn't necessarily have anything to do with providing frequent service. It has more to do with the amount of capacity at the peak time. Peak capacity is a big driver of costs for DB. The 7.10 84X was mentioned. I would be surprised if the cost/journey for this bus (including a contribution to depreciation, fuel, maintenance and all the rest) is any less than 5 euros/passenger, even with all the seats on the bus full. When a ticket costs only EUR 1.80, and could cost as little as 90c when tax rebates for an annual ticket are taken into account, then it's easy to see that there's a big drain on the peaks.

If you had buses running reliably at the intervals you mention (which you should) you won't really need roadside signage all that much.

For most customers, the RTPI signage doesn't help that much, because only half of departures (at the very most) are from stops that are busy enough to justify the investment in the signage.

Implementing RTPI alone will give you hardly any uplift in passenger numbers (around 1 or 1.5 percent). It's only by combining it with other improvements on the route that you'll get the lift in passenger numbers. RTPI is quite an expensive project to actually do. You have to be very focused with it.

Realistically, other initiatives, such as marketing, vehicle location monitoring, improving bus priority and tighter, better management generally will have a much greater effect on the takeup than the digital signage alone will. Remember, we still don't have basics in place, like understandable bus timetables in the prevailing language, timings for intermediate stops, a map of all bus routes, clearly displayed fare stage information or even basic route information displayed on buses themselves. All these things have to take priority.

shltter

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

, timings for intermediate stops, .

This chestnut pops up regularly and it is never thought through.

At the moment buses are timed at two termini if they leave those termini on time then the bus is deemed to have operated on time Dublin bus has to achieve a percentage around 95% of buses on time there is leeway in this that a bus leaving within a couple of minutes of the scheduled time is deemed to be on time.

If you introduce intermediate times then in order for them to have any relevance they will have to be measured so a bus will be on time if it leaves the termini and the intermediate points on time. No harm people would say but lets look at the actual implications.

Take a bus route and you decide on an intermediate point lets say route 77 you assign an intermediate point say at the greenhills road now say at peak times it takes buses most buses 15 minutes to get to that point but you can't set that figure as your intermediate time as you need 95% of buses to be there so you move it to 20 minutes now you can be sure that 95 % of your buses will leave the intermediate point on time but of course we have already said most buses only take 15 minutes so what will happen is you will end up with most buses sitting on the greenhills road for 5 minutes each peak time journey the same will happen on the next intermediate etc etc

This also means that during school holidays for example when traffic is lighter the bus may sit for 10 minutes on the greenhills road and commuters will not benefit from the lighter traffic volumes. It will drive people absolutely demented and will drive people away from using public transport.

But is works in other countries

Of course it does but that is when proper traffic management bus lanes are provided, Dublin's traffic is so erratic that it is impossible at times to accurately tell how long the same journey will take on the 5 different days of the week.


Also you will end up with the ridicolous situation where a bus has sat idle for 15 or 20 minutes at various intermediate stops then gets caught in a snarl up on the last leg and arrives late and has to be regulated.


Intermediate times are great but you cannot implement them until you can with a high degree of accuracy predict how long a journey will take and it has to be the same everyday and Dublin is not like that and it is not in Dublin Buses power to make it like that.

antoinolachtnai

I would point out that I did not say anything about it being anybody's fault.

I am just pointing out that there are many very basic things that we don't have in place.

AlekSmart

I would point out that I did not say anything about it being anybody's fault.

I am just pointing out that there are many very basic things that we don't have in place.

Antoin makes a very simple but hugely relevant point here and one which is relevant to SO many differing areas of Irish Administration since the early 1970`s.

Take for example the current status of the RTPI scheme (A hugely oversold item in the context of Dublins Bus service makeup),we now learn thanks to the Dàil Committee that Bus Atha Cliath has pretty much all of its RTPI infrastructure in-place or ready for installation....however the Department of Transport has taken a policy decision that in the interests of providing an "open access platform" the on-street element of RTPI will be the responsibility of Dublin City Council.

From my perspective this decision introduces yet another layer of unfamiliar administration into what by now should be a completed project.
However,one only has to reference the Integrated Ticketing Board for plenty of "Prior" in this regard

With regard to the 84X and the Peak Provision element as Antoin sez the financial elements cannot be denied BUT the essential question then arises one more as to what a Public Bus Service is to be about.
Mssrs Dempsey,Gormley,Cuffe and a cast of hundreds of other concerned Environmentalists have protested long and loud about their committment to the "environment" and filling that 07.10 84X should be one quite obvious way of making a real impact upon the situation,particularly if that Bus can be filled EVERY day.

Sadly for the concept of Public Transport generally,Mr Dempsey appears to have little broad spectrum view to his analysis of the Big Picture

Not for the first time in Irish Politico-Transport circles have we a situation whereby a Blueprint already exists to allow for major progress but which has been discarded in a political huff.

The Comission on Public Transport report presented to the then Minister,Mary O`Rourke just before she "left office" was the first occasion when a wide and eclectic group of the Citys "Interested Parties" had actually met over an extened period and completed an AGREED document.

The Forum Report contained much forward thinking and established a basis for the expansion of Private Sector involvement in the Base provision of Bus Services.

It recognized that the pre-existing Schoolink service was a small but very real example of how Bus Atha Cliath and the private sector COULD comfortably co-exist in the provision of services.

Additionally,the report identified and addressed several other areas where co-operation between statutory bodies could be improved and directed towards improving Public Transport efficiency generally.

Sadly,the Forum Report was Mary O`Rourke`s baby and no self respecting new Minister,especially one as long in the political tooth as Seamus Brennan, is ever going to adopt their predecessors political child as their own.

So immediately upon taking office,Seamus thanked all and sundry for their work and committed the Report to the bottom drawer.
Seamus it seemed had far bigger fish to fry....he was going to introduce the Credit Card style Driving Licence as a matter of urgency.......ah well....2002 seems so long ago now.

As Antoin`s posts show there is plenty of fresh though out there and plenty of scope for the EXPANSION of Dublin`s Public Bus services in a targetted and broad programme of improvement.
But this programme has to be multi-faceted and not based upon some mistaken concept that one MUST fill every Bus to capacity in order to be "successful".

As the experience of the Luas Red-Line has shown,opening a new Public Transport service which then Immediately begins to operate at it`s design maximum only goes to underline a FAILURE of planning which eventually costs a vastly increased amount to rectify than if it had been designed and constructed properly in the first place.

The cost to the public purse,via the RPA,of Upgrading the original 30mtr Red Line Trams to 40Mtr is an example of this which tends to be buried deep in the PR Puffery.

Removing some 200+ perfectly servicable vehicles and trained staff from a system is merely another example of how Higher Civil Service-itis can spread its infection very rapidly indeed.

Scruff

Bad management and Union intransigence once again look to cause havok for joe public.
Regardless of whether the unions are right or wrong an all out strike doesnt have my support. What a great idea in the midst of recession to make a large portion of the working public less productive and competitive when we need it least putting more jobs are risk. Once again we're held hostage to ransom by union greviences.
Brvao Dublin Bus and the Unions, bravo.

shltter

Scruff wrote: »

Bad management and Union intransigence once again look to cause havok for joe public.
Regardless of whether the unions are right or wrong an all out strike doesnt have my support. What a great idea in the midst of recession to make a large portion of the working public less productive and competitive when we need it least putting more jobs are risk. Once again we're held hostage to ransom by union greviences.
Brvao Dublin Bus and the Unions, bravo.

And your suggestion as an alternative is what ?????


The most important part of your statement is

Regardless of whether the unions are right or wrong

That says it all

HonalD

shltter wrote: »

And your suggestion as an alternative is what ?????

How is a strike at this time going to make joe public happier with workers? Pray tell?

shltter

AlekSmart wrote: »

There is quite a lot of disinformation concerning this 48Hr week issue and all sorts of over the top reactions.

It is known as the EU Working Time Directive and has it`s origins somewhat bizzarrely in Germany where it was introduced to stem some unsavoury work practices in the country`s rag-trade.

It seems that unscrupulous German employers were forcing Turkish migrants to work mad hours for little money whilst holding them to equally wild "contracts of employment"

The 48Hr Maximum Working Week was thus introduced some years ago for ALL workers with the EXCEPTION of certain grades of Mobile Workers including Bus Drivers,a derogation sought and maintained by the large European State Transport operators Deutsche Bahn,SNCF,RENFE and FS to name a few.

This derogation expired almost 2 years ago now and the WTD became law for ALL workers.

However,as with most EU law there was some degree of flexibility with regard to the level at which it was to be implemented.
Ireland,as the Good Boys of Europe opted for the most restrictive interpretation which saw the 48 Hoursd averaged over 17 weeks and referenced it to ALL work carried out by an individual including some types of voluntary work.

One of the problems with Bus/Coach driving was the high level of shift working and equivalent-hours situations,ie:the almost total absence of a 9 to 5 day,5 days a week environment.

Not surprisingly the UK Public Transport industry,which for decades had operated almost universally on VERY low wage rates but equally unlimited overtime,lobbied for a looser interpretation of the WTD and in the meantime most public transport employers essentially required new entrants to sign a "voluntary" opt-out from the benefits of the WTD

Now this option proved popular with both Employers and Employees,who were used to unlimited overtime as the sole means of achieveing a living wage BUT it went down like a lead baloon in Brussels as it was felt the UK Government was not exactly implimenting the wishes of the EU Commission in this matter.

HMG were far more concerned about the WTD`s strict restrictions having a serious effect on the countrys competitiveness especially among companies which had a high degree of seasonal overtime,therefore an Admiral Nelson attitude prevailed......Eye Patch on and look into the telescope !

The stand-off finally ended late 2008 when the EU Commission blinked,especially as the major Employer Groups on the "mainland" began to ask for the same largesse as was being shown to the UK`s employers.

SO.......after a long and bruising series of meetings a form of words emerged which has thrown the ENTIRE Working Time Directive back to the EU Commission and Parliament for "Redrafting" to include a less restrictive working hours regieme essentially based around a 60 Hour norm.

In return for this concession,however,the dastardly Brits did agree to a trade off by accepting the Commissions proposals to extend a number of employment securities such as Maternity/Paternity leave for Temporary/Part-Time workers heretofore not covered as well as securing new holiday pay and pension concesions,so it was a good days work all round.

HOWEVER.....In the context of the current Bus Eireann-Dublin Bus situation it raises all sorts of questions as to what piece of leglislation we are now actually discussing,if the original 48Hr WTD is now defunct ?

If the company is saying its current bills reflect this 48Hr requirement then it has to be asked what the new draft of the WTD will require of it ?

The current position as far as i know is that the EU council wants an opt out if countries legislate for it and the maximum for those who choose an opt out would be 60 hours a week over a 3 month period with up to 65 hours in certain cases.

However the European parliament has rejected this and said any opt out clauses can only last for 3 years after the new working time directive is implemented. It now goes to conciliation between them.

However either way this would only affect Ireland if new legislation was passed to allow for an opt out clause.


http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopress_page/048-44550-350-12-51-908-20081215IPR44549-15-12-2008-2008-true/default_en.htm

shltter

HonalD wrote: »

How is a strike at this time going to make joe public happier with workers? Pray tell?

Why do you think the objective of this or any other strike is to make Joe Public happy. The objective is to protect jobs and conditions of employment.

And besides which there is NEVER a good time to have a strike either for the public or for the workers involved

givyjoe81

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Why don't the bus drivers do their job but refuse to accept fares from customers, this will keep the public on side.

My god great minds think alike! Was just thinking the same myself, although the fact that they are strikes will be going through the proper legal channels makes it a safer option than to not take fares, which i would imagine leave them open to discilinary action.

Having said that, if every single driver didnt take fares the likelyhood of any action would be minimal, they would spent months trying to sort out the mess in their HR system.

I really do think there should be some kind of protest against these strikes, and those planned by the rest of the public service, it really is so so unfair on the general public, many of whom are losing their jobs hand over fist and wont be holding the country to ransom. (before someone leaps down my throat, i know db drivers are losing their jobs, a 160 of them? Compare that to circa 1k private sector workers per day for last while and god knows how much longer)

givyjoe81

shltter wrote: »

And your suggestion as an alternative is what ?????


The most important part of your statement is That says it all

Eh not its not, dublin bus drivers and their actions are utterly selfish,as they have demonstrated numerous times in the past. Really is simple, as with the rest of the public service. Only today i was reminded by a friend and 10 others left standing at our local bus stop on the way to work a whole hour, only to be told a by a passer by, "oh didnt you hear, the buses decided to go go on strike this morning..."

The company is losing ****loads of money FACT, the government does not have the money to continue to pay the wages accross the board FACT. It's unfortunate the greens et al had been babbling on about encouraging more people to use public transport becuase it seems to have contributed to you guys trying to justify your strike at a time when it is simply unjustifiable. Do you want us to end up like Iceland with thousands ending up surviving on food parcels? Do you want as another mentioned, to have enforced public service cuts as part of a bail out (as one mentioned) by the IMF?

It seems to be escaping so many public servants just how serious this is economic crisis, and no amount of striking is going to insulate you from the problems which no longer make it possible for the goverment to flush money down the Dublin Bus toilet.

Really, enough is enough, it's time public servants stop their whinging and took their medicine and were put in place by the people who pay their wages. i.e. the taxpayer.

PS: Vic 08, please do tell how not taking fares on the day in question affect revenue in the company more than a strike (aside from fuel costs)?! Will the drivers still be collecting fares on the picket line?! (Im taking a leap of faith in assuming that its a full days stoppage?!)

Scruff

shltter wrote: »

Why do you think the objective of this or any other strike is to make Joe Public happy. The objective is to protect jobs and conditions of employment.

I think you missed a very important word in that statement. Let me correct it for you:

The objective is to protect their jobs and conditions of their employment.

Thats all well and good but the economy is in nose dive and if they were in the private sector that would mean job losses and\or worsening of conditions of employment if the company they were working for was in financial trouble. They are employed by a semi state company to provide a public service that is hemorrhaging money and where do you think that money comes from????? joe publics already cash strapped pocket! So while i have sympathy for people on an individual basis if changes need to be made that result in loss of jobs and\or reduction in pay for DB or BE employees that is out weighed my anger at my money being pumped into an inefficient and grossly un-cost effective service.
Actually thats my view on public services in general. If we were getting value for money i wouldnt have a problem. When is the next election?
:rolleyes:

shltter wrote: »

And besides which there is NEVER a good time to have a strike either for the public or for the workers involved

True but a weekend only strike would have LESS impact on the working public

AlekSmart

It`s not possible for ANy withdrawal of labour to occur without it effecting somebody.

Whilst the Busdrivers striking will have a dreadful effect on some,the reality is that for many years now the Public Bus service has been a discretionary purchase for a far higher percentage of our customer base.

The average Dublin Housing estate in the 1950`s would have had roads where the chizzlers could play football on all day long but today the same road is virtually impassable due to whichever car has to be parked up on the kerb cos there`s no room in the front drive for it.

I voted against the Indusrial Action mandate because I feel it is only a last resort in these 21st Century times.
I believe the CIE Unions needed to first agree on a JOINT plan of action and then to formulate that plan with a much greater emphasis on the Political elements of the Issue.

I further believe that using far more Media opportunities and buttonholing Politicians at every opportunity was a far better first-step than heading out-the-gate.

As it stands,Minister Dempsey has been sashaying about the place spouting the most awful nonsense with NOBODY available to raise a murmur of disagreement.

The Minister is retreating behind the supposed nature of the 1932 Road Transport Act to defend his inaction on Route Expansion or Improvement but he fails to mention how it is his reliance on an "Interpretation" of that Act by former Attorney General Michael McDowell which currently drives Departmental policy.

Interpretations are great things altogether....and they can be molded to fit any given situation.
See for example how the current AG`s

interpretation

of the Central Bank Act suddenly gives the entire Government a big rock to hide behind on the barren landscape of Anglo Irish Banks.

However back to Buses.....whilst this strike is a major issue it will pale into insignifigance when the Electricity Supply starts to be rationed and the Water Supply becomes a peak time only drip.....

Take a look at Dublin City Council`s collapse of revenue from Developers Levies.....a huge drop and that`s all money that was ploughed back into keeping the place functioning on the most BASIC level.

If nothing else the Busdrivers strike will focus much attention on the hard slog lying ahead of us all..public and private if that distinction actually means anything in this context as Dublin Bus staff are NOT direct Public Service employees,as that distinction is only applied when a deduction is in the offing before being dispensed with if a payment is to be made.

Its a great pity that the Trades Unions,particularly the ICTU backed SIPTU did not engage the services of a GOOD PR outfit and go for the Government`s jugular in this because I believe that once the Travelling Public were shown the level of disinterested management and regulation of what SHOULD be a flagship Public Bus service they would be marching WITH us instead of throwing eggs and rotten fruit !!

MOH

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I really do think there should be some kind of protest against these strikes, and those planned by the rest of the public service, it really is so so unfair on the general public, many of whom are losing their jobs hand over fist and wont be holding the country to ransom. (before someone leaps down my throat, i know db drivers are losing their jobs, a 160 of them? Compare that to circa 1k private sector workers per day for last while and god knows how much longer)

Seems only fair to me that if an indefinite strike goes ahead from March 1st, any companies left short-staffed by commuters unable to get to work should prioritise tasks among their remaining staff appropriately. Loan or mortgage application for a striking dublin bus driver? Bottom of the pile, leave it until your missing staff are back. Big queue of people buying sandwiches for lunch? Serve the guy in the DB uniform last. After all, if they're prepared to make everyone else suffer, why not share the pain?

Not going to happen, of course. Most of us work in the real world where we don't disrupt everyone else just because we're not happy with our employers.

shltter

MOH wrote: »

Not going to happen, of course. Most of us work in the real world where we don't disrupt everyone else just because we're not happy with our employers.

No you live in the world that just rolls over and accepts it

shltter

Scruff wrote: »

I think you missed a very important word in that statement. Let me correct it for you:

The objective is to protect their jobs and conditions of their employment.

Thats all well and good but the economy is in nose dive and if they were in the private sector that would mean job losses and\or worsening of conditions of employment if the company they were working for was in financial trouble. They are employed by a semi state company to provide a public service that is hemorrhaging money and where do you think that money comes from????? joe publics already cash strapped pocket! So while i have sympathy for people on an individual basis if changes need to be made that result in loss of jobs and\or reduction in pay for DB or BE employees that is out weighed my anger at my money being pumped into an inefficient and grossly un-cost effective service.
Actually thats my view on public services in general. If we were getting value for money i wouldnt have a problem. When is the next election?
:rolleyes:

Except the facts do not back up your argument

Read the Deloitte report commissioned by the Minister for Transport

It does not find inefficiency and un cost effective service on the contrary it clearly states that Dublin Bus performs very well when benchmarked against other providers in Europe and that the Subvention paid to Dublin Bus is well below the EU average.

Also the companies figures do not stand up to scrutiny

They are distorted by depreciating over 8 years buses that are operated 14 to 16 years for a start

There is a €10 million euro cost because of the removal of the excise rebate on diesel

And last August they predicted a €16 million euro loss for 2008 it turned out to be a €10 million euro loss so with 4 months left in the year they were out by €6 million euro and we are supposed to trust their predictions for 2009.
All of that loss was because of the steep rise in oil and at the time in August when they predicted a €30+million euro loss for 2009 it was predicated on oil being north of $150 a barrel and they were only hedged till Feb 2009 at $90 a barrel now the oil situation has changed drastically with oil now around $40 odd a barrel yet they are still predicting a €30 million loss.

The truth is that the company are using the recession to try and ram through changes that they have wanted to get in for years and that is not acceptable.

Scruff wrote: »

True but a weekend only strike would have LESS impact on the working public

And what would we work during the week the new imposed conditions

shltter

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Eh not its not, dublin bus drivers and their actions are utterly selfish,as they have demonstrated numerous times in the past. Really is simple, as with the rest of the public service. Only today i was reminded by a friend and 10 others left standing at our local bus stop on the way to work a whole hour, only to be told a by a passer by, "oh didnt you hear, the buses decided to go go on strike this morning..."

The company is losing ****loads of money FACT, the government does not have the money to continue to pay the wages accross the board FACT. It's unfortunate the greens et al had been babbling on about encouraging more people to use public transport becuase it seems to have contributed to you guys trying to justify your strike at a time when it is simply unjustifiable. Do you want us to end up like Iceland with thousands ending up surviving on food parcels? Do you want as another mentioned, to have enforced public service cuts as part of a bail out (as one mentioned) by the IMF?

It seems to be escaping so many public servants just how serious this is economic crisis, and no amount of striking is going to insulate you from the problems which no longer make it possible for the goverment to flush money down the Dublin Bus toilet.

Really, enough is enough, it's time public servants stop their whinging and took their medicine and were put in place by the people who pay their wages. i.e. the taxpayer.

PS: Vic 08, please do tell how not taking fares on the day in question affect revenue in the company more than a strike (aside from fuel costs)?! Will the drivers still be collecting fares on the picket line?! (Im taking a leap of faith in assuming that its a full days stoppage?!)

Read my other post

But to add

Dublin Bus employees are employed by commercial semi state companies they are not Public servants in that they do not come under the public service pension arrangements they were not part of the benchmarking process etc etc.

And the taxpayer does not pay my wages i am a taxpayer my wages are paid by Dublin Bus from the revenue collected by that company from its customers and by the government for providing services that are not economically viable.


And finally it is laughable that you accuse Dublin Bus workers of being Selfish given your argument basically is I don't give a **** what happens to anyone else as long as I am not affected. As long as my bus turns up I don't give a **** how badly you are paid or treated.
How unselfish of you.....

spareman

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Why don't the bus drivers do their job but refuse to accept fares from customers, this will keep the public on side.

This was discussed by the unions but the company said they wouldn't let the buses out the gates if this were to happen, All garages were fitted with big gates after the last time we done this.

Scruff wrote: »

Regardless of whether the unions are right or wrong an all out strike doesn't have my support.

We have no other option, If Dublin bus force changes without agreement, unless you have a better idea?

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Eh no its not, dublin bus drivers and their actions are utterly selfish,as they have demonstrated numerous times in the past. Really is simple, as with the rest of the public service.

Not completely selfish, after all we are striking to preserve routes that are about to be axed.

Scruff wrote: »

Thats all well and good but the economy is in nose dive and if they were in the private sector that would mean job losses and\or worsening of conditions of employment if the company they were working for was in financial trouble. They are employed by a semi state company to provide a public service that is hemorrhaging money and where do you think that money comes from????? joe publics already cash strapped pocket! So while i have sympathy for people on an individual basis if changes need to be made that result in loss of jobs and\or reduction in pay for DB or BE employees that is out weighed my anger at my money being pumped into an inefficient and grossly un-cost effective service.
Actually thats my view on public services in general. If we were getting value for money i wouldnt have a problem. When is the next election?

Read delottie report, it says we get value for money.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I voted against the Indusrial Action mandate because I feel it is only a last resort in these 21st Century times.
I believe the CIE Unions needed to first agree on a JOINT plan of action and then to formulate that plan with a much greater emphasis on the Political elements of the Issue.

A vote against industrial action is a vote for the cost effectiveness plan.
Don't you think this is last resort? Company sit down with union, list their demands and walk out, No consultation what so ever.
While I agree unions need to unite to defeat this I believe had we not voted for industrial action we would be handing the initiative to Dublin Bus.

AlekSmart wrote: »

I further believe that using far more Media opportunities and buttonholing Politicians at every opportunity was a far better first-step than heading out-the-gate.
As it stands,Minister Dempsey has been sashaying about the place spouting the most awful nonsense with NOBODY available to raise a murmur of disagreement.

Micheal Flatherty gave a one hour interview to prime time last week, they used about 40 seconds of this interview, The only way for the unions to get there message out is to take out full page adverts in the national newspaper's which I believe they have begun to do. Bad show for the media when one side has to pay big bucks to be heard.

spareman

Just to make everyone here aware of the plan, which if any part thereof is implemented by Dublin bus without agreement will lead to strike action.
While bus driver unions would possibly accept parts of this plan, the company will not compromise on any part and insist the full plan must be implemented.

1. Agreed pay increases of 6% to be deferred.

2. 48 hour week to be implemented.

3. 120 buses to be removed from service.

4. Loss of shift payment
currently €20.77 daily paid to drivers who work shift.

5. Loss of travel time payment
overtime payment Paid to drivers who start and finish in different locations
from Donnybrook city center 30 Min's
Donybrook Dun Loaghaire 45 Min's
Donnybrook Bray 60 Min's

6. Change of Euro shift hours
Euro drivers currently work mon to fri 12 hour shifts, they want this changed to 13 hour shifts.

7. Cut running times on all routes to increase productivity.
While this makes the timetable look good, it will have a drastic effect on reliability.

8. Removal of compensation payments if routes are moved to other garages.
If I'm working on the 746 route in Donnybrook and they move the route to harristown I wont receive compensation for the extra traveling to work.

9. No payment for late breaks
Currently if a driver is 30 Min's late breaking due to heavy traffic etc, driver receives 1 hour overtime if they agree to come back on time and cut short there break.

12. Decrease overtime by 75%

13. Part time staff
Employ part time staff to work Sundays and pay them less than what we are currently paid.

14. Loss of spreadover payment
Spreadover is paid to drivers whose workday is over 10 hours, currently €15.96, paid hourly after 10 hours, so 12 hour shift equals 2 hours payment.

15. Increase staff to duty ratio
We have an agreement to have a limit on the number of staff to duty's, they want to increase this ratio effectively reducing overtime to zero.

16. Desafing staff to have there hours reduced.
Staff who empty the safes will have there work hours and pay cut.

17. 190 probationary drivers to have there contracts terminated.

Example of how these cuts will effect drivers.

I live in Loughlinstown and work in Donnybrook garage, I am a Euro driver on the 746 route, I work 12 hour shifts mon to fri, usually 7am to 7pm, I get a break around 11am to 3pm. I'm currently paid
basic pay 624.12
shift pay 103.85
Spreadover 159.60
Total €887.57 Gross

I am the sole earner in my household after my wife lost her part time job in January, we have a mortgage and 3 kids.
Under the cost effectiveness plan I would work 13 hour days 7am to 8pm
and receive €624.12 Gross pay, thats a drop of €263.45 per week.

Currently I would receive a weekly payment of €418 per week from the social welfare if I was unemployed, also mortgage relief assistance, fuel allowance and medical card, free travel, and would possibly even be entitled to family income supplement.

€624.12 Minus PRSI, PAYE, Income Levy, Trade union levy.

If these cuts go ahead I would surely be better off staying at home.

Also if my route was moved to Harristown garage, I would not get any compensation payments for the extra traveling required.

While I agree and accept that I must take a cut to help the company and the country, I feel the company are taking advantage of the current economic climate and trying to force these cuts on me unfairly without consultation with my union, under the cover of a heavily massaged account book that reads -31m, and does not take into account the recent reduction in bus depreciation years. It is clear in the Delottie report that Dublin bus operate a cost efficient service for the taxpayer, and are currently receiving a very low percentage of subsidies from the Government compared to other EU cities.

I understand the pain being felt in the private sector by job losses, my wife and some of my family and friends have lost their jobs, Many who thought I was mad to take this job in Dublin bus while they were earning twice my wage on building sites and in IT etc. I could have took a job on a building site, but I felt with my young family I needed something more secure, and Ive been proven right.

I feel I have no other option but to give my union a mandate for industrial action to reject this plan, I hope it doesn't come to strike action but if it does I am prepared to strike to protect at least some of my terms and conditions.

I think dublin bus do need drastic action, I think we need to redeploy buses to areas where they will be used more to increase revenue, and beef up marketing to increase passenger numbers and the private hire end of things, I feel the company has been badly managed and could be successful if the right management was put in place, while still retaining most of the driver's working conditions.

Dublin bus recieved €85 million last year and tax payer's give out its too much.
Tax payers pay back €300 million worth of loans for 10 rich buisness men and we still have a government? Im sure these guys could still afford to pay this back despite the downturn.
This just reinforces my position and views, €300Million would have sorted out the crisis at dublin bus and provided funding for the next few years.

loyatemu

tbh Spareman a lot of those measure sounds like sensible efficiencies - ie the removal of a labyrinthine system of allowances, overtimes and legacy work practises that must make the management of the service unneccesarily complex.

Having said that, its not reasonable to expect workers to take a 25%+ hit on their wages in one go...

givyjoe81

shltter wrote: »

Except the facts do not back up your argument

Read the Deloitte report commissioned by the Minister for Transport

It does not find inefficiency and un cost effective service on the contrary it clearly states that Dublin Bus performs very well when benchmarked against other providers in Europe and that the Subvention paid to Dublin Bus is well below the EU average.

Also the companies figures do not stand up to scrutiny

They are distorted by depreciating over 8 years buses that are operated 14 to 16 years for a start

There is a €10 million euro cost because of the removal of the excise rebate on diesel

And last August they predicted a €16 million euro loss for 2008 it turned out to be a €10 million euro loss so with 4 months left in the year they were out by €6 million euro and we are supposed to trust their predictions for 2009.
All of that loss was because of the steep rise in oil and at the time in August when they predicted a €30+million euro loss for 2009 it was predicated on oil being north of $150 a barrel and they were only hedged till Feb 2009 at $90 a barrel now the oil situation has changed drastically with oil now around $40 odd a barrel yet they are still predicting a €30 million loss.

The truth is that the company are using the recession to try and ram through changes that they have wanted to get in for years and that is not acceptable.





And what would we work during the week the new imposed conditions

Ha, read your post will you?! Report commissioned by THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT!! And its says that Dublin Bus is value for money?! There's a shock,a private consultancy company employed by the government tells them what the want to hear, or wanted to hear, im sure if deliotte did the report now it be scathing in its criticism, which is what the government would be paying to hear so as to justify their cuts.

Come off it seriously, how is an unreliable service cost efficient?! It's losing passengers hand over fist becuase its totally unreliable!! Dont care what ONE single report says when its commissioned by the MFT! You have got to take it with a pinch of salt.

givyjoe81

shltter wrote: »

Read my other post



And finally it is laughable that you accuse Dublin Bus workers of being Selfish given your argument basically is I don't give a **** what happens to anyone else as long as I am not affected. As long as my bus turns up I don't give a **** how badly you are paid or treated.
How unselfish of you.....

Oh yes im selfish for having completely run out of patience with drivers who ARE part of a totally unreliable and incompetent system and organisation, no constituional right is absolute, freedom of speech (slander/libel) for example and neither should your right to strike be absolute,particularly in what are arguably essential services. You are crippling a city in your actions, simple as, there is no other word for it but selfish. Bus drivers etc should not the have the right to hold a city to ransom. You may have legitimate cause for concern and arguments and I dont have the answer for you to solve your plight, but you should NOT be striking.

My arguement is plain and simple, you SHOULD NOT HAVE THE RIGHT OR THE MEANS to inflict economic hardship on others particulalry in such a critical time, because thats what your doing and if anything the attitude you accuse me of having is exactly the way your thinking, "i dont care how many people cant get to work, im not losing my job..." .

Oh and the bus regularly doesnt turn up, thats why i stopped using Dublin Bus and bought my car, going into debt to do so.

ixoy

Thanks for providing some info there spareman. It's the sort of thing that's more difficult to get elsewhere.

Question: Since you're losing some of the extras - shift allowance, spreadover - are you in turn getting more regular shifts? Are they trying to rationalise the shifts more and, pay aside, does this not make more sense from an organisational point-of-view?

Also I believe the ESB also removed all these various shift allowances and other subsidies and increased the base wage in compensation: Would that be a compromise people would accept?