Phase 2 students totally unprepared

Haz33

I feel as phase 2 students we are going in the the field totally unprepared. We have 20 weeks of fulltime training and yet we go out with no asp no handcuffs no pulse access and no power of arrest. Reserves go out after 50-60 hours training with an asp, cuffs , certain powers of arrest and pulse access. Surely we have after 20 weeks received a better level of training than reserves or at least we should have.
OK they tell you in the college you are only observing and if you're uncomfortable with a situation you can walk away. This is total bulls**t cause I can assure you if your colleagues are getting the s**t kicked out of them and you decide to lock yourself in the back of the car your career is going nowhere. I dont mean to be issued asps to inflict injury but merely as a form of defending yourself in a dangerous situation. Does anyone else agree with me or am I alone in my observations???

goldie fish

You seem to have missed the big thing about phase 2.
You are still a civilian. Don't think the uniform changes that. You are there to observe and learn.
In P4, you'll have lots of time to do.

Haz33

goldie fish wrote: »

You seem to have missed the big thing about phase 2.
You are still a civilian. Don't think the uniform changes that. You are there to observe and learn.
In P4, you'll have lots of time to do.

The point I am making is that when you wear the uniform you are a target like evryone else in AGS who wears it except you have no way of defending yourself. As someone who has come through it I'm sure you appreciate the dangerous situations you find yourself in and your inability to just "observe". There will be times when you will be called upon to do more and indeed expected to. The question I ask is what makes us lesser trained after 20 weeks fulltime training than reserves who have had 50-60 hours?

cpstears

I agree totally with Haz was only talking about this earlier on with another member while out in the car. Don't know about you goldie but where i'm stationed it's get stuck in or face getting a good beating the general public in our area don't really like us. Plenty of time spent rolling around on the ground restraining violent prisoners. What can you say when your at an intruders on call i'm staying here lads you just head out there and go into the house or search the back gardens of the house because control just said the guy was armed with a knife so i'll just stay here because i'm just a civillian! really can't see it working i've been involved in just as much stuff on a day to day basis as anyone else on my unit and just get on with it and get stuck in. Everything they talk about in the college is best practice and in a perfect world not really that applicable to everyday policing in the DMR in my opinion.

Fair play haz, good topic, hope you getting on ok. Send me a pm if u want.

Haz33

just another point. If the powers that be wish us only to be observers only, why dont they let us wear civilian clothes and wear a stab vest that says "observer" on it. Personally I think what is happening is reckless and dangerous. You just have to look at the extensive list of students who recieve injuries on phase 2. No else would do it for €200 a week I can assure you.

Hope things are going well for you CP.

goldie fish

Don't they give you lovely blue shoulder tabs to identify you as "not a real garda".
Better protection than any stab vest or baton...



In managements opinion anyway.
They would say it was your tutors job to get you out of these risky situations.

Haz33

goldie fish wrote: »

Don't they give you lovely blue shoulder tabs to identify you as "not a real garda".
Better protection than any stab vest or baton...



In managements opinion anyway.
They would say it was your tutors job to get you out of these risky situations.

Well they would say that yeah. But lets be honest if your tutor is cuffing some guy on the ground and two guys tackle you it's every man for himself. As for the shoulder tabs ... they are like a f**king bullseye. They may as well give us t shirts that say "pick on me as i'm not carrying anything to defend myself and cant arrest you anyway"

cpstears

to true haz, i was attacked while restraining a prisoner in a hallway of a house some of his mates came running down the stairs and decided they wanted him to be released ended up fighting them off while they called me a blue badged wan*** and asked what the fu** did i think i was doing pushing them back and roaring at them to back off as i wasn't even a guard.

got out of the garda car, looks like a guard, talks like a guard, walks like a guard must be a garda!! most heads couldn't give a **** if your a student or not they'll still try and attack you! :mad:

TheNog

To start off I am going to issue my first and only warning to all who post on this thread. I do not want to see a "Us against Them" attitude develop between students/members and the Reserves. I am a believer of the Reserves and respect those who give up their free time to help us out. Anyways the process in place at the moment for the students is not the fault of the Reserves but is rather an issue for management maybe to have a look at.

Now that's over with it I will continue. Haz you have made a very valid point and I think you right in your belief. My opinion is that the whole training process needs to be over hauled and I have heard this is in the pipeline. The current process of phase 2 students going out without anything to protect themselves was designed as such when at a time there was probably little or no need to train them in batons but alas times have changed and changed for the worse. When I went out on phase 2 I didnt even have a vest nor a baton.

The thing I would be concerned about is if students were to be trained in the use of the ASP and pepper spray would they use prefer to use the said ASP or pepper spray rather than talking their way out of a situation? IMO there is no better skill to be had than being able to talk your way out of trouble and there is no better way of learning that skill than being faced with trouble.

Haz33

Thanks nog.
I hope I didn't come across as slating the reserves. Hats off to them and anyone who would do this job for nothing. They have their baton and cuffs and rightly so. I'm just of the opinion that there is nothing stopping them from giving students the level of training needed to carry these on phase 2 as they have 20 weeks to fit it in.
Reserves have to go out in uniform just like regular gardai and students but as anyone who wears the uniform will say, it has no respect value anymore and in most areas attracts trouble and to make students wear it with no defences is reckless.
Yes you can talk your way out of situations and no one better than I at bulls**tting but there will be times where words wont stop a flying fist or knife.
By the way I'm not a young cherry faced student who cant wait to swing the asp for the first time on some power trip, I am 34 and married with kids and have enough sense to be able to evaluate situations and my evaluation of this one is that it could be fatal given the right circumstances

fermoyboy

Any situation dealt with by a Garda could be fatal in certain circumstances........it wouldn't make a difference whether they were carrying an ASP or a gun!!

I'd be of the belief that students shouldn't carry an ASP. They're there to observe and contrary to what you say, I don't think Gardai expect students to get stuck in as much as they would get stuck in themselves. If you really were to get statistics on the numbers of students who get injured as a result of not being able to defend themselves with an ASP then I think the numbers would be pretty low.

deadwood

TheNog wrote: »

To start off I am going to issue my first and only warning to all who post on this thread. I do not want to see a "Us against Them" attitude develop between students/members and the Reserves.

Might I also caution against an "us against them" attitude regarding the public in general. No matter where you work, the vast majority support the gardai. Let's not try to give the impression that we are going out in some sort of Mad Max society where the public is attacking guards for no good reason.

We managed to bluff our way into the job with our mouths, we've probably talked our way into trouble with it by using it too little or too much, so we should be able to talk your way out of it too! No ASP, spray or cuffs will help if you haven't got the cop on to do the job without depending on them. They are useful tools, but are a last resort if reason won't work.

Students have been managing ok for 20 years (jesus:eek:).

Since Yellow Packs were first rolled out, this discussion has taken place. It ain't never gonna happen, (as Gaybo might say in that stupid American accent).

Would you let a medical student use a scalpel after one term in college?

By the way, I thought the same when I was a student, but in reality, you don't need them. No guard will hold it against you if you stand back. It shows remarkable maturity on your part if you can. A person who can use a radio, give good directions to his colleagues to an incident and catch a name or two is a lot more use than a student rolling around the ground while his tutor tries to figure out whose wrist he's putting the cuffs on!

Haz33

fermoyboy wrote: »

Any situation dealt with by a Garda could be fatal in certain circumstances........it wouldn't make a difference whether they were carrying an ASP or a gun!!

I'd be of the belief that students shouldn't carry an ASP. They're there to observe and contrary to what you say, I don't think Gardai expect students to get stuck in as much as they would get stuck in themselves. If you really were to get statistics on the numbers of students who get injured as a result of not being able to defend themselves with an ASP then I think the numbers would be pretty low.

I take your point fermoy but we could all get knocked down and killed by a bus in the morning. It's not an arguement.
The point i'm making is regular gardai, reserves and students are all put in these situations like it or not. It's a fact. The difference is the student does not have the training or equipment to protect themselves.
I say if you put us in uniform give us the training and equipment otherwise leave us in civilian clothes until such time as you do.
Absolutely if some one comes at you with a gun, an asp isn't much use. But that's not what i'm talking about and is leading this thread down a different route.
The public by and large do respect us but there will be times when this situation becomes dangerous. This happens. It's a fact. I've had it myself already and had no choice but to get stuck in, not sit there "observing". I have a friend in the job 5 yrs who had his nose broke on phase 2 for "observing". Yes its part of the gardas job but not ours we are after all civilians remember. You cant have it both ways!

I understand everyones concern as to students with asps but I am not talking about everyday use of the asp in every situation, only when a situation arises to defend your self or your colleagues.

the locust

Its not like you're on your own though. You do have the right to defend yourself and assist Gardai in making an arrest. But you're always with at least one member if not two who have cuffs (and asps)

You are a civillian but you do wear the uniform that symbolises authority, you have the right to health and safety. But our job is one that 'anything could happen when you step out onto the street'

I think that if you think of yourself as a 'target,' and its us vs them, your mentality is all wrong and you begin to operate out of fear. I suggest trying to find the balance between being assertive and using common sense and tactical awareness. ASPs aren't the answer and as its been said - students have been doin ok for a long time...

deadwood

deadwood wrote: »

We managed to bluff our way into the job with our mouths

Haz33 wrote: »

I have a friend in the job 5 yrs who had his nose broke on phase 2 for "observing". .

He should have observed the fist/boot/hurley bat coming!

Murphy(Cork)

Having an ASP hanging off your belt, won't make the job safer or less dangerous.
Even when entering a difficult situation my protection is the one or two guards with me. I hope I never use the ASP, having been in several situations that would of allowed me so.
They say Phase 2 is the point where you learn, is the guards for you? It's a dangerous job, having an ASP isn't going to change that.

Murphy(Cork)

pvt.joker wrote: »

You're totally missing the point. Haz isn't some lunatic just looking for his chance to swing an ASP at a lad.
Having an ASP wont change the fact that its a dangerous job, no. Nobody is saying it will. What he IS saying, and what nobody seems capable of picking up on, is that if the shít REALLY hits the fan, and ASP's need to be drawn, then we're (phase 2's) pretty fúcked.

Try preaching your "is the guards for you" to the chinese phase 2 student in cabra a while back who got their arms broken with an iron bar for "observing", with nothing but a radio for protection.:mad:

Never said Haz was looking for a chance to swing an ASP.......

I'm saying thats the system in place, a system that phase 2 students have done for years now.

It's not like, I'm saying ye shouldn't be able to defend yourselves. Of course ye should have ASP's or at least the old woodies.

I'm just saying having one is not going to stop a guard getting injured in every situation.
And if some1 feels unsafe in the job and fears for his/her well being constantly well thats what office jobs are for.

Least pepper sprays are coming soon and students are bound to be allowed that

daithip

Would the carrying of an asp or pepper spray by Phase 2 constitute an offence under Firearms and Offensive Weapons? Would legislation have to be changed?

Haz33

Murphy(Cork) wrote: »

I'm saying thats the system in place, a system that phase 2 students have done for years now.

Personally I dont give a S**t what worked 10 or 15 or 20 years ago because it's irrellevant. If the job was the same now as it was then well there would be no need for stab vests, asps or pepper spray. The safety of the job has evolved and its personnel been trained to deal with modern policing it just hasn't been considered for all in the job.
We all agree an asp wont save your life in every situation. We all agree you should have a garda beside you who has an asp. We all agree not its not us against them. Some of us here seem to think tutor gardai wear a suit with an S on the chest and have magical powers that allows them to be in 2 places at once. Not true.
This tread is not about whether I feel the gardai is for me or whether I'm in fear of doing the job cause I can guarantee you at 34 I've had more life experience in dealing with rta's and death and brawling than most would want to have so Murphy Cork stick to the topic if you want to debate but leave personal ill advised opinions for a different tread.

Haz33

daithip wrote: »

Would the carrying of an asp or pepper spray by Phase 2 constitute an offence under Firearms and Offensive Weapons? Would legislation have to be changed?

Good point and yes I would say you are right.
However the way around it is to give students the same asp training and power as reserves. As I've said before students receive about 12 times (in hours) the training that reserves do. And before anyone gets up on a high horse I dont consider reserves any more or less trained than students. Its all relative to the job we have to do.
The gardai and government can bend rules and change legislation to suit themselves so its not beyond the realms of possibility.
It is Ireland though and it will probably take a seriously injured student or a high court case to get someone to wake up and smell the coffee!

Murphy(Cork)

Haz33 wrote: »

Personally I dont give a S**t what worked 10 or 15 or 20 years ago because it's irrellevant. If the job was the same now as it was then well there would be no need for stab vests, asps or pepper spray. The safety of the job has evolved and its personnel been trained to deal with modern policing it just hasn't been considered for all in the job.
We all agree an asp wont save your life in every situation. We all agree you should have a garda beside you who has an asp. We all agree not its not us against them. Some of us here seem to think tutor gardai wear a suit with an S on the chest and have magical powers that allows them to be in 2 places at once. Not true.
This tread is not about whether I feel the gardai is for me or whether I'm in fear of doing the job cause I can guarantee you at 34 I've had more life experience in dealing with rta's and death and brawling than most would want to have so Murphy Cork stick to the topic if you want to debate but leave personal ill advised opinions for a different tread.

Alright Haz, just to point out, I'm on your side on this, I agree students should be allowed to defend themselves. All I'm saying is thats the way things are done. I'm sure your not the first student to feel like this and won't be the last.
But like everything in the guards, change is slow.

Giving out on a recruitment thread on boards, won't change that.

Haz33

happyhappy wrote: »

Murphy(Cork) wrote: »

Look lads I'm in no doubt the jobs for me. I am enjoying every minute of it and appreciate the experience I am gaining. I simply wonder if there could be a better system in place that would save injuries, would it and should it be put in place?
Should we be in uniform with asps? Should we be in civilian attire with observer stamped on our foreheads? Perhaps the current system is the best one I just think I will take a bit of convincing on that.
Bottom line is look after yourself and the guy/gal beside you and with or without powers or an asp I won't be holding back if someone has a go at me.
Good to get different points of view on this though!

ivabiggon

look i work the fire service we get recruits through regularly and they have to do their observer bit on the back of an ambulance, but at the end of the day they are still issued with the relevent protective equipment weather it be fire helmets gloves, boots etc.... it's a basic H&S issue and recruits are just seen and preceived in any light as another spoke..cog..call it what you will, of that organisation.
so in the public eyes, they (the public) could and have turned to that recruit for answers in a moment of crisis, even if it the recruits first night on the job, daunting as it may seem it does happen.
bearing that in mind i think it irrisponsible to send a trainiee gaurds out on the streets in public view and exposed to the every day hazards half cocked and expect them to react profesionally.
if i came accross a house fire without my protective clothing and relevant fire fighting gear and water i would for one stand back and let thing take it's coarse, cos i know the damage that can be done.
you get a young gaurd in a mill and the two primary members are tide up restraining a drunkin client and the family take offensence in the way the sham has been treated and they set on the arresting guards what defence does the young mule have?

sceptre

deadwood wrote: »

Since Yellow Packs were first rolled out, this discussion has taken place.

(off-topic/side-question) What are yellow packs?

Eru

pvt.joker wrote: »

You're totally missing the point. Haz isn't some lunatic just looking for his chance to swing an ASP at a lad.
Having an ASP wont change the fact that its a dangerous job, no. Nobody is saying it will. What he IS saying, and what nobody seems capable of picking up on, is that if the shít REALLY hits the fan, and ASP's need to be drawn, then we're (phase 2's) pretty fúcked.

Try preaching your "is the guards for you" to the chinese phase 2 student in cabra a while back who got their arms broken with an iron bar for "observing", with nothing but a radio for protection.:mad:

Are you really this niave? That student was injured just as much as her fully qualified colleagues were so evidently having cuffs and a baton was sweet FA use on that occasion.

Being injured is worth major bucks to a phase 2 esp when it was publicised, its the best thing that can happen.

I agree that phase 2's are to a degree, hung out by the state but come on. We have all been there and survived.

ScubaDave

sceptre wrote: »

(off-topic/side-question) What are yellow packs?

Yellow Packs was the term used to describe student gardai several years ago. The term refers to the plain yellow epaulettes which students wore during their training. These yellow epaulettes were replaced by the current blue epaulettes with the college logo.

sceptre

ScubaDave wrote: »

Yellow Packs was the term used to describe student gardai several years ago. The term refers to the plain yellow epaulettes which students wore during their training. These yellow epaulettes were replaced by the current blue epaulettes with the college logo.

Ah, cheers, rings a vague bell with me.

TheNog

sceptre wrote: »

(off-topic/side-question) What are yellow packs?

ScubaDave wrote: »

Yellow Packs was the term used to describe student gardai several years ago. The term refers to the plain yellow epaulettes which students wore during their training. These yellow epaulettes were replaced by the current blue epaulettes with the college logo.

And there was me tinnking Deadwood was talking about Quinnsworth Yellow Packs - cheap and cheerful :pac:

goldie fish

ScubaDave wrote: »

Yellow Packs was the term used to describe student gardai several years ago. The term refers to the plain yellow epaulettes which students wore during their training. These yellow epaulettes were replaced by the current blue epaulettes with the college logo.

I started with yellow packs. Got the Blue tabs at the end of phase 3.
The Yellow packs were made from old army shirts, and weren't really yellow.:)

Haz33

Eru wrote: »

Being injured is worth major bucks to a phase 2 esp when it was publicised, its the best thing that can happen.

you better be taking the piss here. This his very helpful!!!!

You cant say whether having a asp would have saved injury here any more than anyone else but by all accounts it wouldn't have done any harm.
Everyone in GS gets the same training with an asp so students with that training would have the same as guards.
It seems to me the only ones against this are the ones who are carrying them. How ironic.

Whitewater-AGS

Batons will never be issued on phase 2 unless they change the system and attest you before phase 2