Dublin Bus - Discontinuation of 2 Easy Tickets

Cookie_Monster

From the website

Dublin Bus is simplifying the range of tickets that it offers and part of the programme includes the phasing out of low volume tickets due to the significant costs incurred in production and distribution for such a small percentage of sales.

Last week Dublin Bus stopped producing its Adult Bus 2 Easy (Stages 1-3) ticket and its Adult Bus 2 Easy (Stages 4-7) ticket. Usage of these tickets amounted to only 2,000 to 3,000 passenger journeys out of Dublin Bus’ daily 500,000 passenger journeys.

Dublin Bus offer a wide range of Prepaid Smartcard tickets including the 10 Journey Travel 90 ticket, which allows for unlimited travel within 90 minutes of first use and the 3-Day, 5-Day, and 30-Day Rambler tickets allowing unlimited travel throughout the Dublin Bus network. Following the introduction of Smartcard technology, each day of Rambler tickets can be used any day before the use by date printed on the front of the card thus giving much improved flexibility and convenience to the customer.

That really annoying. They really are doing their best effort to get rid of customers. I get 2 busses a day to work (when not cycling), each €1.60. there is now no ticket I can buy in advace thats of any use to me:mad:

aishling99

why not use the travel 90 ones, i used to find them very handy before i got my yearly ticket.

Cookie_Monster

aishling99 wrote: »

why not use the travel 90 ones, i used to find them very handy before i got my yearly ticket.

1 journey at 8.30, 1 journey at 5.30. not much good to me unless they only cost 1.60 each?

aishling99

sorry i misunderstood thought you were getting two in morning and two in evening, bit crap alright always having to have the change.

paulm17781

This has always been my problem with Dublin Bus. For years there was no prepaid ticket type that benefited me. Now the annual bus / Luas does (combination of Luas and me paying higher tax) but prepaid should be cheaper for people not more expensive.

anotherlostie

That is crap for those using these tickets. And DB supposed to be persuading us not to use cash. I remember when these tickets used to be 10 journey tickeets, so if printing is such an issue, why not go back to this version of the ticket?

Stark

+1

This is going to be crap for everyone having to dig for spare change every time they use the bus and crap for everyone else who will be delayed every time the bus stops while people dig for change.

Cookie Monster wrote:

Usage of these tickets amounted to only 2,000 to 3,000 passenger journeys out of Dublin Bus’ daily 500,000 passenger journeys.

If they offered a discount on the cash fare to customers then they'd surely see that number rise significantly. Typical Dublin Bus: cut back on the service on offer rather than make simple changes to make the service more attractive.

Victor

I've used about five 5x1 day smart cards at this stage and have only had one error (out of 100+ boardings), so its seems to be working OK. The right hand scanner was unable to read the card initially, despite 3 attempts and taking it out of my wallet. The scanner on the driver's console was able to read it - as expired - and the right hand scanner was then able to also read it as expired.

Many people leave their card in their wallet / purse or in one of those see-through card holders.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/news_centre/latest_news.asp?action=view&news_id=847

Discontinuation of 2 Easy Tickets

Dublin Bus is simplifying the range of tickets that it offers and part of the programme includes the phasing out of low volume tickets due to the significant costs incurred in production and distribution for such a small percentage of sales.

Last week Dublin Bus stopped producing its Adult Bus 2 Easy (Stages 1-3) ticket and its Adult Bus 2 Easy (Stages 4-7) ticket. Usage of these tickets amounted to only 2,000 to 3,000 passenger journeys out of Dublin Bus’ daily 500,000 passenger journeys.

Dublin Bus offer a wide range of Prepaid Smartcard tickets including the 10 Journey Travel 90 ticket, which allows for unlimited travel within 90 minutes of first use and the 3-Day, 5-Day, and 30-Day Rambler tickets allowing unlimited travel throughout the Dublin Bus network. Following the introduction of Smartcard technology, each day of Rambler tickets can be used any day before the use by date printed on the front of the card thus giving much improved flexibility and convenience to the customer.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/news_centre/latest_news.asp?action=view&news_id=850

New Schoolchild & Scholar Prepaid Smartcard tickets

Schoolchild 2 Easy Ticket €1.20 is now being replaced by a 10 Journey Travel 90 Schoolchild Ticket (u16yrs) €6.40.

The new ticket is:

* Valid for 10 journeys of 90 minutes unlimited travel.
* Valid on Dublin Bus scheduled services (excluding Xpresso, Airlink, Nitelink, Tours, Special Events, Private Contract services & SchooLink Bus services).
* Valid to and from primary & secondary school up to 17:00hrs (Monday - Friday) & up to 13:30hrs on Saturday.
* Schoolchild ID Required

Scholar 2 Easy Ticket €1.90 is now being replaced by a 10 Journey Travel 90 Scholar Ticket (16-18yrs) €10.00.

The new ticket is:

* Valid for 10 journeys of 90 minutes unlimited travel.
* Valid on Dublin Bus scheduled services (excluding Xpresso, Airlink, Nitelink, Tours, Special Events, Private Contract services & SchooLink Bus services).
* Valid to and from secondary school up to 17:00hrs (Monday - Friday) & up to 13:30hrs on Saturday.
* Scholar ID Required

Child 7 Day Travelwide €7.50 is now being replaced by a Child 5 Day Rambler (u16yrs) €7.00.

The new ticket is:

* Valid for unlimited travel for 5 non-consecutive days
* Valid on Dublin Bus scheduled services including Xpresso excluding Airlink, Nitelink, Tours, Special Events, Private Contract services & SchooLink Bus services).
* Schoolchild ID Required

latenia

Another great move by Dublin Bus. What non-cash alternative is there for someone like me who takes 10 €1.60 journeys a week apart from the €18 ten-journey-ticket or a €29 weekly ticket? Either way I lose money. It's not like this is an untypical usage pattern either.

paulm17781

latenia wrote: »

Another great move by Dublin Bus. What non-cash alternative is there for someone like me who takes 10 €1.60 journeys a week apart from the €18 ten-journey-ticket or a €29 weekly ticket? Either way I lose money. It's not like this is an untypical usage pattern either.

It's true. Dublin bus seem to want to phase out cash fares by keeping an incentive to use cash. Only in CIE... :rolleyes:

KevR

paulm17781 wrote: »

It's true. Dublin bus seem to want to phase out cash fares by keeping an incentive to use cash. Only in CIE... :rolleyes:

I'm not trying to bring this thread off-topic but it's like the exact opposite of what they did/are still doing in London. Oyster Card users benefit from heavily discounted fares as TfL try to phase out 'cash fares' as much as possible. The Oyster Card automatically calculates the cheapest fare depending on your usage.

paulm17781

KevR wrote: »

I'm not trying to bring this thread off-topic but it's like the exact opposite of what they did/are still doing in London. Oyster Card users benefit from heavily discounted fares as TfL try to phase out 'cash fares' as much as possible. The Oyster Card automatically calculates the cheapest fare depending on your usage.

That's it. With CIE, there is little reason to use prepaid cards unless you're a heavy user. They should be trying to get people paying for single journeys onto smart cards to get queues moving faster, less cash on buses etc. Instead they make sure their prepaid tickets cost more than paying cash, unless you're a heavy user.

Colm R

Just sent an email to Dublin Bus. Short and simple:

To whom it concerns

With the imminent discontinuation of the "2 Easy Tickets", can you please advise which prepaid smart card or otherwise is most appropriate for a customer who pays €1.60, twice a day, 5 days a week - i.e. a regular customer.

Regards

---

I will let you know what the reply is? Feel free to send a similar email to info@dublinbus.ie. You know, so they get the message.

I use to be €1.50 (now €1.60 I guess) customer, and always bouth the prepaid cards as they are just easier than change.

Although, if I was to be a bit more cynical, you might think that Dublin Bus will get a lot more spare 40c because of this.

phasers

Getting rid of the child 7 day tickets is a right pain. 2 days less travel for 50 cent less? And what child gets loads of buses within 90 minutes? generally it's one bus and then another 7 hours later

Cookie_Monster

Sent the same mail as Colm R and got this;

Dear Mr C. monster Esquire

I wish to acknowledge and thank you for your email. I have logged your complaint onto our customer feedback database. All feedback is appreciated as we are always looking to improve our services.

Dublin Bus is simplifying the range of tickets that it offers and part of the programme includes the phasing out of low volume tickets due to the significant costs incurred in production and distribution for such a small percentage of sales. Last week Dublin Bus stopped producing its Adult Bus 2 Easy (Stages 1-3) ticket and its Adult Bus 2 Easy (Stages 4-7) ticket. Usage of these tickets amounted to only 2,000 to 3,000 passenger journeys out of Dublin Bus’ daily 500,000 passenger journeys.

Dublin Bus offer a wide range of Prepaid Smartcard tickets including the 10 Journey Travel 90 ticket, which allows for unlimited travel within 90 minutes of first use and the 3-Day, 5-Day, and 30-Day Rambler tickets allowing unlimited travel throughout the Dublin Bus network. Following the introduction of Smartcard technology, each day of Rambler tickets can be used any day before the use by date printed on the front of the card thus giving much improved flexibility and convenience to the customer.


Public Affairs

All in all a pretty useless, unhelpful answer:(

Colm R

I got the same reply as Cookie Monster!

Nice to know someone in DB is getting paid to:

Highlight

CTRL-C

CTRL-V

Click Send!!!

Colm R

Just checking the Green Partys Copy and Paste skills. Sent this to them:

Hi Green Party.

Are you aware of the discontinuation of the Dublin Bus 2 Easy Pass Ticket. This ticket is generally used by people who live within the €1.60 zone who travel twice a day. There is no saving compared to cash, but it is a convient cashless option.

Now the only prepaid option is to buy more expensive tickets which are worth more than what is generally used for people who travel this distance. Please note, that this fare would allow passengers from the city center to travel to Clontarf, Phibsborough, Ranelagh, Rathmines etc etc.

I am a long time supporter of the Green Party, however I have become disillusioned with your progress in getting the simple things right in our country. Whilst this issue may be considered small, for me, it may become the straw that breaks the camels back.

antoinolachtnai

The problem for them is that they have to simplify the ticketing structure to make any sort of prepay ticket work. But it's hard to do that without hitting someone somewhere.

The obvious solution would seem to be to have a 'wallet' of, say, 20 euros on the smartcard, have a 90-minute 'cap' of 1.80 (so that the max fare you can be charged in that period is 1.80) with touch-on and touch-off so that if your trip was only 1.60, that would be all you would be charged.

This would require two fairly big changes - you would have to be able to recharge the smartcard (because otherwise the money left when there was less than the cost of a fare on there would be lost) and you would have to be able to touch off and get a refund if you travelled less than a certain distance.

This problem arises whether you have stages (as at present) or zones (as some people envisage for the future) so it will have to be resolved at some stage.

The big problem is that ultimately, this is going to discourage people from using the bus for short journeys. Dublin Bus is vulnerable here, because customers can easily substitute walking or cycling for these shorter journeys, and this will result in a revenue hole. Short journeys provide a lot of cash for a network like Dublin Bus, without much extra cost being incurred, (especially if people can board quickly with a prepaid ticket).

The TfL case is a bit different. A big part of the plan with having low smartcard fares over there is to provide some sort of relief to the Underground, which is very congested indeed at peak times. That's why they were in a position to stop bothering with charging different amounts for different lengths of journey.

AlekSmart

Usage of these tickets amounted to only 2,000 to 3,000 passenger journeys out of Dublin Bus’ daily 500,000 passenger journeys.

I find these stats to be somewhat low...very low in fact.

However it does fit in with a somewhat less than realistic attitude to Fare Evasion in General .
Some time ago figures were produced to show such occurances running at less than 2%.
Needless to say most platform and operational staff who are familiar with reality would provide a far higher level of such evasion.

Antoin is once again correct concerning Dublin Bus having to make some unpopular fiscal calls.
In the absence of Departmental consent and support for a flat-fare system OR a compensatory framework for lost cash then Dublin Bus MUST move to protect what revenue stream it can.

The current Fare-Stage system is a decrepit antedeluvian creaking mess which sadly appears to exactly match Minister Dempsey`s vision for Dublins Public Bus services going forward.

As an excercise can any poster actually locate a Stage Point in the City which is clearly marked as such...???

white apples

Are these smart cards that Dublin bus have, compatible also with Luas or are two different smart cards necessary? IMO there should just be one flat fare regardless where you're going, and if bus & luas are needed for your journey you should be able to just pay a one off fare to cover both trips (within a time frame etc), like it's not rocket science....

Colm R

white apples wrote: »

like it's not rocket science....

I'm pretty sure its very difficult, and perhaps more so than Rocket Science. Its taken 9 years and more than €50 million so far to implement.

Noel Dempsey was on the last word recently and said it is proving very difficult to get the stakeholders to co-operate.

And the consultancy report about the appropriate consultant to hire to decide on which consultant should consult which stakeholder and then you need a consultant as a go between to the parties involved.

I honestly think companies like Ernst & Young and others (which one did the Finglas QBC) look at Ireland and see dollar signs for the amount of consultants we need.

All we need is:

An engineer and a City planner to go to each pinch point on the network and redraw the junction appropriately.

A minister to implement integrated ticketing - now! All he needs is a pin, a piece of paper and a vote.

No more consultants.

Cookie_Monster

AlekSmart wrote: »

As an excercise can any poster actually locate a Stage Point in the City which is clearly marked as such...???

A few of the larger timetables have stage info on them don't they? IE the square one one the bus shelters.

But in general, no, it cannot be found. If they insist in keeping this system the stage number should be printed on every bustop. There is plenty of room on the "head" on stops to carry such info.

antoinolachtnai

To do an integrated ticket, you have to either

(a) put prices up for some people or

(b) increase the subsidy for some company or other to make up the shortfall.

The problem is that (a) is unpopular and not necessarily commercially a great idea either and (b) costs a lot of money (tens of millions per year going forward).

A lot of what happens is shilly-shallying about what to do about (b).

Also, from a point of view of power and control, the ticket system is important and no one wants to concede on anything.

Someone has to just get a grip and make this happen. (Although I don't think having a vote would be the way to go about it.)

bk

white apples wrote: »

Are these smart cards that Dublin bus have, compatible also with Luas or are two different smart cards necessary? IMO there should just be one flat fare regardless where you're going, and if bus & luas are needed for your journey you should be able to just pay a one off fare to cover both trips (within a time frame etc), like it's not rocket science....

Technically the DB and Luas smart cards are compatible, as they use the same ISO standard. However their backend systems haven't been integrated (not hard), but more importantly DB and the RPA haven't come to agreement on how to share the revenue.

I agree totally with you the fare structures need to be completely reformed and they need a good kick up the arse to integrate the systems.

Alun

AlekSmart wrote: »

As an exercise can any poster actually locate a Stage Point in the City which is clearly marked as such...???

An even better "exercise" is trying to explain this system to a tourist or other foreign visitor at a bus stop. I've tried and given up, largely due to the fact that I don't really understand it, or the logic behind it, myself

Cookie_Monster

Alun wrote: »

An even better "exercise" is trying to explain this system to a tourist or other foreign visitor at a bus stop. I've tried and given up, largely due to the fact that I don't really understand it, or the logic behind it, myself

"It's €2.10 to go anywhere" Easiest explantion and pretty much true, anything shorter and just tell them to walk:)

steve-o

latenia wrote: »

Another great move by Dublin Bus. What non-cash alternative is there for someone like me who takes 10 €1.60 journeys a week apart from the €18 ten-journey-ticket or a €29 weekly ticket? Either way I lose money. It's not like this is an untypical usage pattern either.

How about the 30-day rambler ticket? It's a hefty €90, but works out at bargain €3 per day for unlimited travel on any 30 days you use it (not a 30 day period).

Heart

The 30 day rambler now costs €100, still works out as good value for me tho.

H

BOHSBOHS

used to use 10 journey tickets ---dublin bus : lets stop them

moved to using 2 easy tickets ----dublin bus : lets stop them


it says 30 non consecutive days on the rambler?? does this mean i cant use it for 5 weekdays in a row then ?

Yakuza

BOHSBOHS wrote: »

used to use 10 journey tickets ---dublin bus : lets stop them

moved to using 2 easy tickets ----dublin bus : lets stop them

Yep- they seem to have a consistent policy of scrapping a perfectly good scheme. I remember when the what is now €1.80 bus fare into town was £1.00 (, and the 10-journey ticket cost £8.00, great value).

BOHSBOHS wrote: »

it says 30 non consecutive days on the rambler?? does this mean i cant use it for 5 weekdays in a row then ?

I think it just means you don't have to use it within 30 days of its first use, so you can use it 30 days in a row, or every other day for two months, or however you see fit.

I see they've snuck in a fare increase too...€1.20 for 2 journeys, or €6.00 for 10 journeys is now costing €6.40, and €1.90 for 2 (€9.50 for 10) is now costing €10.

latenia wrote: »

Another great move by Dublin Bus. What non-cash alternative is there for someone like me who takes 10 €1.60 journeys a week apart from the €18 ten-journey-ticket or a €29 weekly ticket? Either way I lose money. It's not like this is an untypical usage pattern either.

Check out here: http://www.taxsaver.ie/db/tickets.asp
If you're paying PAYE at the top rate, the net cost of a bus only is around €520 a year, or a tenner a week. If you're on the 20% tax rate, the net cost is ~€720, or ~€14 a week, still less than 10 * €1.60. They're also valid on the Nitelinks too (and you can use it on the weekends!). I used one for 4 years on the trot, before I started to cycle in, and I saved a packet during that time.

AlekSmart

I see they've snuck in a fare increase too...€1.20 for 2 journeys, or €6.00 for 10 journeys is now costing €6.40, and €1.90 for 2 (€9.50 for 10) is now costing €10.

I think you may be using the old pre Jan 2009 fares.

The schoolchild fare in now .65c and the Scholar fare is €1.00 so the new cards still represent an equitable conversion.

dub_commuter

AlekSmart wrote: »

I think you may be using the old pre Jan 2009 fares.

The schoolchild fare in now .65c and the Scholar fare is €1.00 so the new cards still represent an equitable conversion.

Amusingly, it appears that Dublin Bus themselves seem to be using the pre Jan-2009 fares in the article in relation to this news:

http://www.dublinbus.ie/news_centre/latest_news.asp?action=view&news_id=850

Is it any wonder they cannot run an efficient company when they do not know what their fares are?

Heart

The tickets never even got into print with the higher price so perhaps that has caused the fair confusion...

H

KC61

BOHSBOHS wrote: »

used to use 10 journey tickets ---dublin bus : lets stop them

moved to using 2 easy tickets ----dublin bus : lets stop them


it says 30 non consecutive days on the rambler?? does this mean i cant use it for 5 weekdays in a row then ?

The 10 journey tickets were being the subject of widespread abuse - leading to significant fare evasion. That is why they were withdrawn.

The 30 day rambler smartcard can be used on any individual 30 days over the period that the ticket is valid. Each smartcard is stamped with an expiry date, that is usually about 18 months from the date of purchase, so it can be used on any individual 30 days over that 18 month period.

Yakuza

AlekSmart wrote: »

I think you may be using the old pre Jan 2009 fares.

The schoolchild fare in now .65c and the Scholar fare is €1.00 so the new cards still represent an equitable conversion.

Oops, I was going on the figures in the OP's original post, which were in turn cited from DB's site. I (naively, it turns out!) assumed that those figures would be accurate

reemos

latenia wrote: »

Another great move by Dublin Bus. What non-cash alternative is there for someone like me who takes 10 €1.60 journeys a week apart from the €18 ten-journey-ticket or a €29 weekly ticket? Either way I lose money. It's not like this is an untypical usage pattern either.

I'm also in this usage bracket and I was a little annoyed that they pulled these tickets (I hate having to think about having the right change on me). So I sent Dublin Bus an email and I was actually surprised with how prompt their response was. In it, it was pointed-out about 'alternative' tickets that I could use, such as the travel-90 and 30-day rambler but if you do the maths you end up paying more for using these. Plus sometimes I might only use the bus once in a day in which case a daily ticket is a waste.

Anyway, after a few mails back and forth, their public relations person pointed out that a top-up card like the oyster one in london (and also maybe the luas? I dont really use the luas so im not sure), is on the cards - basically you'll wave it getting on and off the bus and it will take the fare from it. But she neglected to give me any time-frames for the rollout so who knows when this will actually happen. Looks like I'm back to using change again

AlekSmart

Anyway, after a few mails back and forth, their public relations person pointed out that a top-up card like the oyster one in london (and also maybe the luas? I dont really use the luas so im not sure), is on the cards - basically you'll wave it getting on and off the bus and it will take the fare from it. But she neglected to give me any time-frames for the rollout so who knows when this will actually happen. Looks like I'm back to using change again

The response you are getting,whilst accurate in itself is also a little disingenuous as it refers to what is "Planned" rather than what is actually imminient.

The current roll-out of Bus Atha Cliath`s "Smart Card" range is already way behind what it could have been.
The company was and continues to be far ahead of the Department of Transport on this topic.

One of the first elements of the BAC Smart Card to be specifically denied by the Department of Transport was the "Electronic Purse" element which the BAC Lady advised you of.
This could have been introduced IMMEDIATELY with the other elements of the current ticketing bundle except that Departmental approval was NOT forthcoming.
It appears that the Department is of the opinion that the Electronic Purse element of BAC`s system would eventually conflict with the same facility of the DoT`s Integtrated Ticketing Implimentation Group product.

However for the Tag-On Tag-Off procedure to function on BAC`s current fare-stage setup would be nigh impossible unless the Route Netork was fully set-up on for electronic vehicle location thus identifying the bus location as the passenger disembarked.
Also,with the single door vehicles currently making up the majority of the fleet I`m sure you can see the potential for yet more chaos layered on top of the nonsense the Department already forces people to endure at Bus Stops.

The only way it would function is to switch to a Flat Fare, and THAT will require additional central support funding (Snowball-Hell).

A compromise suggested by some BAC management was for an assumption to be made that passengers would automatically choose to pay a Flat Fare,say €2 and that amount would be deducted upon tag-on.

However,those pax wishing to make a lower denomination journey would instead approach the Drivers Machine and place their card on it`s reader whilst asking for the relevant lower fare.
The driver would then key in and enter the relevant fare and that amount would then be debited from the customers card.
A copmpromise,yes but a workable one,which would have benefited those pax who were keen to simply board and get on with their journey whilst continuing to facilitate the current short haulers.

What is TRULY annoying,is that at a time when the current Minister for Transport is constantly waffling on about the collapse of passenger numbers on Bus services,his Department remains resolutely opposed to allowing the same companies to impliment the technologies which could arrest and perhaps reverse this trend.

In his last RTE Raido interview on the topic,Mr Dempsey said he hoped for an Integrated Transport Ticket to be ready in Q4 of 2010....so those Public Transport supporters are simply going to have to take the hit until Noel`s hopes are realized.

reemos

AlekSmart wrote: »

However for the Tag-On Tag-Off procedure to function on BAC`s current fare-stage setup would be nigh impossible unless the Route Netork was fully set-up on for electronic vehicle location thus identifying the bus location as the passenger disembarked.
Also,with the single door vehicles currently making up the majority of the fleet I`m sure you can see the potential for yet more chaos layered on top of the nonsense the Department already forces people to endure at Bus Stops.

This might seem a little simplified but couldnt the proposed tag-on tag-off system use the same method that is currently in-use on the busses for the paper tickets and the 'old' ticket machine? I was under the impression that the bus driver incremented a counter for each stop which was then used to identify the stage when generating/validating tickets?

AlekSmart

This might seem a little simplified but couldnt the proposed tag-on tag-off system use the same method that is currently in-use on the busses for the paper tickets and the 'old' ticket machine? I was under the impression that the bus driver incremented a counter for each stop which was then used to identify the stage when generating/validating tickets?

Yes it is a tad over simple because as it stands the current fare-stage setup is a shambles with neither staff nor customers having the required level of awareness to guarantee seamless operation.

However the main problem is that it requires the customer to make TWO seperate operations for the one Journey and in terms of hi frequency mass transit operations thats a no brainer.

Luas get around this by making the Tag process entirely Off Vehicle and it does work albeit at the cost of maintaining the network of expensive TVM`s at each stop.

The priority for the Bus Service is SIMPLICITY and historically that is a term which has consistently baffled Dublins Public Transport management.

antoinolachtnai

I can't see how to avoid tag-on/tag-off, unless you have a completely flat fare. But charging someone the same for going from St Stephen's Green to Rathmines as you charge to go from Bray to the city doesn't seem sustainable. It works in London, but the structure of the transport system is quite different there (it's rail-centric, and the rail system charges a premium and is zoned).

What DB seems to be planning is to have an arrangement whereby the passenger can queue and ask the driver for a short-journey fare, and he will press a button on the ticket machine to 'issue' the discounted ticket.

This is completely ridiculous in my view. You will end up with a queue for the driver at certain stops. This undermines the whole system.

The biggest plus of the system from the driver's point of view should be to remove him from the whole ticket-issuing equation and allow him to focus completely on the safety and comfort of his/her passengers. The biggest plus from the passenger's point of view should be to avoid queues when boarding and to be assured of always having the best fare. The biggest plus from the exchequer's point of view should be reduced dwell times.

Having the driver issue tickets disturbs all those advantages. So that is why I think tagging off is the easiest solution to the issue.

No one actually has to tag off. They only have to tag off if they want their discount, so they will figure it out after the first few times. Tagging off can happen very quickly indeed. It will certainly take less than the time it will take to state a destination and have the driver choose a ticket.

AlekSmart

What DB seems to be planning is to have an arrangement whereby the passenger can queue and ask the driver for a short-journey fare, and he will press a button on the ticket machine to 'issue' the discounted ticket.

Ish...what DB are planning is yet again some form of workaround which will satisfy the Department of Transport`s requirements vis a vis its Integrated Ticketing initiative.

It would IMO be a welcome development in eradicating the current Cash/Change Ticket stand-off procedure which blights ALL of BAC`s currrent services.

With no actual cash to drop into the vault and no actual ticket to print then we definitely see an immediate improvement.

However it IS a compromise..yet another Irish Solution to an Irish problem which SHOULD be long ago solved.

The biggest plus from the exchequer's point of view should be reduced dwell times.

Sadly I am fairly certain that this particular body will have little concept of the term "Dwell Time" other than a value on the amount of time spent waiting for a pint in the Galway Races Tent.

antoinolachtnai

I know it sounds better than what we have, but at this stage, we need to move beyond 'better' or even 'good enough' and be looking at 'excellent'.

Everything else (private operators; rail; luas) will be using some sort of tag-on/tag-off from what I can see.

I think doing it this way on the buses will cause confusion for customers, where confusion was supposed to be eradicated.

AlekSmart

I know it sounds better than what we have, but at this stage, we need to move beyond 'better' or even 'good enough' and be looking at 'excellent'.

I would agree 100% here BUT that move,essentially entails a massive simplification of a system which has been with us for a hundred years.

That fact alone in the eyes of many within the Department`s of Transport and Finance makes it cast in stone.

Neither of these entities have much appreciation of the word move in the context of their day to day appreciation of matters Public Transport.

They and their MInister appear far more comfortable with the notion of me sitting with a tartan rug over my knees cracking a whip at the backsides of two grey mares as my carriage trundles along some toll-path whilst a ticket-boy collects the soverigns and guinea`s in return for a cardboard token.......2030 vision indeed !!

antoinolachtnai

On the contrary, I see this as a retreat to the halcyon days when there was a clear division of labour:

driver: drives the bus.

conductor: collects the money.

Except now the boffins have actually come up with a decent replacement for the conductor. So why not use it to its full, rather than lumbering the driver with a job he shouldn't need to do anymore?

AlekSmart

Except now the boffins have actually come up with a decent replacement for the conductor. So why not use it to its full, rather than lumbering the driver with a job he shouldn't need to do anymore?

The "Boffins" have long ago moved on from that leaving behind an entire raft of perfect systems,one of which is Wayfarer TGX.

As probably the last European City to "Embrace" one person operation we were in a uniquely positive position to get it right 20 years ago but instead saw the initial changeover proceed with the new OPO Driver hauling an Almex 2p machine around in what resembled a tin suitcase.

Ever since then we have stumbled around in the dark and I see no evidence of any light (CFL or otherwise) at the end of the Departments tunnel.

DEloitte is correct in their summation of the fares and stages regieme in Dublin.....it needs to be one thing OR the other...it can`t be BOTH

Dyr

funny thing happened today... as I was getting off the bus the card reader bipped...i can only assume it read my card as it was on the same level as the reader ( i carry my card in my breast pocket ) Its a yearly so it's no loss to me but i'd be p**sed off if it was 10 journey card or something

Sean9015

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I know it sounds better than what we have, but at this stage, we need to move beyond 'better' or even 'good enough' and be looking at 'excellent'.

Everything else (private operators; rail; luas) will be using some sort of tag-on/tag-off from what I can see.

I think doing it this way on the buses will cause confusion for customers, where confusion was supposed to be eradicated.

As regards tagging off, this can be done automatically without having to present the card at a reader, so there should be no need for delays exiting the bus. Slightly more kit, but reduced dwell times should be a benefit. They can tag on this way as well, but it is usually a good idea to ensure that some sort of card is shown to the driver to deter fare dodging at busy stops. You don't want to save money cash handling, only to have to spend more money putting inspectors on buses checking tickets!

The Init equipment providing RTI can also provide an output to the ticket machine to set fare stages, making sure that they are correct without the driver manually updating - all stops are programmed in to the system, and can have different properties set to them. Wayfarer TGX can also accept a GPS signal. Init do market ticket machines (trent barton in the UK are currently rolling them out, although I hear there have been problems). I know from personal experience though that getting one manufacturers RTI to talk to anothers ticket machine can be "interesting"! Maybe a split feed to each system fro a single GPS antenna is the best compromise in that respect!

Such a solution overcomes the need - and I think it is a need - to allow a short distance fare. Whether you base it on distance (ie stages), or time (like the Travel 90 concept) is a moot point. I would see three fare levels - a short distance (eg Heuston to City), medium, and long (over 10 km / 90 minutes) fares for cards set up as stored value. Cards can of course also offer unlimited travel as per a travelcard, in which case the system just checks validity - there is no need to tag off, but the data trail would assist a more active planning of service.

antoinolachtnai

You can also in principle do a cap, i.e, the maximum you would spend in a given day would be 1.5 times the highest fare you incurred.

My suggestion would be to phase out weekly, monthly and annual ticket sales altogether and do it on the basis of a weekly or monthly cap (i.e., you only have to pay up to a certain amount, then there is no charge or only a very small charge for further trips).

So then, you would just board the bus, and you would know that you would always get the best fare available.

The logistics and administration of providing and collecting payment for weekly, monthly and annual tickets is actually pretty substantial, and it all eats into the margins.

I think that a system with rfid tags that can be read from a distance is just not politically acceptable. There are just too many security and privacy implications for the individual user.

Snickers Man

Alun wrote: »

An even better "exercise" is trying to explain this system to a tourist or other foreign visitor at a bus stop. I've tried and given up, largely due to the fact that I don't really understand it, or the logic behind it, myself

Ay there's the rub. Part of the problem is the difficulty in buying these tickets. It seems to me that many of the so-called "official Dublin Bus partners" have no interest in selling these things in the first place. They are not on display on the counter, they are usually held in the back of the shop and treated like illegal porn.

I don't know whether this is the fault of Dublin Bus or not but it seems to me an irony that its management is full of people that have been funded through post graduate degrees at the tax payers expense and they literally don't know how to sell a bus ticket.

Get some Moore St traders in there and they'd learn a bit.

antoinolachtnai

It's understandable that you can't get these easily in retail.

I don't know what the margin is on DB tickets, but I'd imagine it's very small. It's just not an attractive product to sell. Managing the inventory is a difficult issue.

If you had a totally simplified system and only accepted cash on the bus or at the station to charge up the smartcard or buy a new one, it would make things a lot easier.

Snickers Man

It might be understandable for the retailers but that just means that the whole system is nonsensical. You can go to just about any capital city in Europe (and I've been to a few) and whether or not you speak the language (I usually don't) you can suss out how to use the public transport system.

Simple things like what are the ticket options? Where can I buy them? What stop do I get off at?

How hard should it be just to buy a feckin' bus ticket?

But here it's a major palaver to do these simple things. Case in point: Merrion Square, terminus for two routes. Also a bus stop for several others. Where's the nearest place you can buy a pre paid ticket?

Answer: Baggot St or Bath Avenue. That's a whole lot of use if you're running for a bus, isn't it.

This smart card lark could work if they roll it out properly. Like the way other people do. Charge a high flat fare for one off journeys but offer hefty discounts for multiple journeys. But the holding of one's breath is not advisable.