Another victim?? Another first time buyer??

geggles1

Where is our bailout????

We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24, after being offered a mortgage 5 & 1/2 times our combined salary and being advised (if you could call it that, looking at it now) that we were getting a great deal.

We dealt with a mortgage broker at the time who took complete advantage of our naievity as first time buyers, and in fairness the broker was not alone. The estate agents, banks, developers and builders are all to blame along with the Financial Regulator, who let's face it, is proving to be a complete farce.

Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk. Given that the Financial Regulator is there to act in our best interest and give factual and relavent advice, why did they not do more to make first time buyers aware of the potential risks.

Given the example of the collapse that both Finland and The Netherlands experienced, it's clearly not rocket science that purchasing in such a market was not just a high risk, but a huge one. Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself for not doing more research about the collapse of other markets, but when you have people of what were once reputable institutions and everyone one around you is advising you to take the leap, it's no wonder there are so many of us stretching ourselves to the limit to provide as best as possible for our children.

So I ask, where is our bail out? Where is the Taoiseach's help when we need it most? Well it would seem, that the petty criminals i.e. the fat cats sitting in our banks are getting all the help while we pay for their actions. How dare they get bailed out whilst we cling to our jobs for our life. After all, it is without doubt, that their actions over the past 10 years are what have contributed most to this recession. Not only have they been bailed out, but they continue to get rewarded for their bad decisions over the years - a 30% pay cut is a joke. Cowen should be looking to Obama and following in his footsteps with a $500K cap on their earnings. It would seem that our government is completely inept and incapable of being able to relate to what the people of this country actually need.

I have a family and both myself and my partner work hard - damn hard actually, and I am fed up to the bone of being ripped off by our overpriced market - our wages are absorbed by our mortgage so clearly this is the first point of my frustrations and I know that I am not the only one.

I would be really interested to hear everyone's thoughts and in particular from other first time buyers to see what type of guideance (if any) was given when purchasing your property. I thinks it's time we took at stance on this and stood together!!

the_syco

If the banks didn't get bailed out, the banks wouldn't lend money to anyone. Not to people looking to get a house, not to people trying to start a business. No-one.

MissMoxy

the banks were the ones who caused this whole mess... im losing my wages and people are losing their jobs because of what the banks have done... dont defend them.. If we had a taoiseach with a set of balls maybe he could come up with a better plan to attempt to sort this mess out.... maybe politicians cud take a large pay cut? Heres an idea they cud give up their expenses which is a joke anyway?? They cud give up their jet that has them flying all over the world on hols sorry "business"??

AARRRGH

Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.

punchestown

geggles1 wrote: »

Where is our bailout????

We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24,

Please tell me by first you mean first time buyer and not first as in the beginnings of a budding property portfolio that was your 'pension'

syklops

AARRRGH wrote: »

Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.

I am inclined to agree with you. In the last 4 years or so I was in a position where I could buy a house, but to get a house similar in size and close enough to where I work, and also have monthly repayments of a similar amount to what I was paying in rent, would take me roughly 40 years to repay.

I didnt take the bait, and now am entering this recession in a very comfortable position. While my wages are staying the same, my rent has gone down, what I spend on food/clothes/travel has gone down, and when the house prices hit rock bottom I will be in a position to get a really nice house for a sensible price.

Sorry OP, but "I didnt know" is not a good enough reason to complain. In the 21st century when information has never been so easy to get a hold of, to say you didnt know that buying a house when prices were sky rocketing is not enough in my opinion.

Sorry.

jimmycrackcorm

I don't know what the OP is sore at? Surely if he could afford it in 2006 then he should also afford it now unless his job prospects change. Even though I bought my home over 10 years ago, the loss of my job would have the same effect when it comes to losing my home as if I bought in the height of the boom.

mopeds

AARRRGH wrote: »

Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.

Its great to see there are other people out there who think that people need to take responsibility for their own mistakes, it was very clearly a big bubble and if you didnt see that OP its your own fault. Banks didnt help but their main job is to make money for their shareholders, Its your responsibility to look after your own interest

BendiBus

The banks are indeed being bailed out. That's because the country needs them to continue to function.

Whether or not the people running those banks get bailed out remains to be seen. Most of Anglo's board is gone. IL&P's board will hopefully be gone by tomorrow.

Brian Goggin says he expects to earn less than €2M this year. Given the look on Brian Lenihans face on Prime Time this evening, I think Goggin may be lucky to finish this year in posession of his testicles never mind millions in cash.

Leninan actually agreed with and used the term 'economic treason' this evening in relation to the IL&P Anglo revelations :eek:

Having said that, the Financial Regulator seems to have gotten away with it and John Hurley is still running the Central Bank :mad:

Unfortunately none of this helps you OP, but many commentators & observers were warning us long before the peak of the madness.

Caveat emptor.

Firetrap

OP, you have every reason to feel sore about what's happened to you but just like paper never refuses ink, mortgage brokers won't ever refuse a customer. If you went back to that broker today to buy a house, he would tell you the same thing; that you're getting a great deal. The only difference of course would be that you would be told that you're getting a really great deal because you're buying at the bottom of the market :rolleyes:

Ultimately, you and I and the rest of the people on this board are the small people. What happens to us doesn't amount to a whole lot in the grand scale of things. A bank on the other hand - now that's a different story.

Agent J

Ok only on your 4th paragraph do you even consider that you might have some responabilty in the situation and even then it doesnt seem to be serious.

Break out the violins please.

I would have had a lot more sympathy if you would accept personal blame 1st then look at the other factors.

No one put a gun to your head and if the boom was still continuing would we be hearing a world of complaint from you?

Senna

OP, have you lost your job? can you not afford your repayments? has your mortgage not decreased in the last 6 months? Are you getting more interest relief now?

It sounds to me like your upset that the value of your house has dropped and that is all. Had you of done even the most basic research, like reading this site and even askaboutmoney.com in early 2006, you would have seen that there was a growing number of people question the market and marking strong arguments why it was all going to end in tears.

You are right that the Financial Regulator should have been putting a stop to such reckless lending by banks, but at the end of the day you are responsible for you own actions and no one else's.
As for EA's, builders, developers and mortgage brokers taking advantage, what else do you expect? Do you go into a secondhand car dealer and expect that the sales man is working in your best interest and trying to save you money? NO they are there to sell you what they have and for as much money as possible, you cannot blame anyone else for trusting these types but yourself.

gurramok

As what others had said i'd like to add the following..

The one signal i would have had in your position OP without any knowledge of housing markets is:
Would a house that was going for over 300k in D24 represent good value to you? (tbh, think they were 350k-400k there at the time)

You, me and alot of others know the answer(madness) to that and that should of been a personal warning sign to everyone that something was amiss and made you walk away from that transaction.

rockbeer

No sympathy from here either I'm afraid. If you take the biggest financial decision of your life without researching it properly you only have yourself to blame. I think the way the banks behaved was stupid and irresponsible, but banks are businesses and it's naive to expect a business to act in its customers' interests rather than its own.

What exactly do you expect to be bailed out from anyway? You still have your home, and you knew what it was going to cost you to live there when you bought it didn't you? Are you just feeling deprived of the feeling of security that you imagine owning an appreciating asset would give you?

CDfm

geggles1 wrote: »

Where is our bailout????

We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24, after being offered a mortgage 5 & 1/2 times our combined salary and being advised (if you could call it that, looking at it now) that we were getting a great deal.

We dealt with a mortgage broker at the time who took complete advantage of our naievity as first time buyers, and in fairness the broker was not alone. The estate agents, banks, developers and builders are all to blame along with the Financial Regulator, who let's face it, is proving to be a complete farce.

Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk. Given that the Financial Regulator is there to act in our best interest and give factual and relavent advice, why did they not do more to make first time buyers aware of the potential risks.

Given the example of the collapse that both Finland and The Netherlands experienced, it's clearly not rocket science that purchasing in such a market was not just a high risk, but a huge one. Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself..

So I ask, where is our bail out? Where is the Taoiseach's help when we need it most? Well it would seem, that the petty criminals i.e. the fat cats sitting in our banks are getting all the help while we pay for their actions.

You only have your self to blame. Its an unregulated market and you went out and paid top whack. What did you expect -prices to continue to rise?

Do you have a car loan and should you be bailed out of that too.

mikemac

If your house shot up in value by 100k, would you be on boards calling for help for people who took a cautious approach and who continued to rent as they didn't want a mega long term mortgage in an undesirable area?

Nah, you'd be delighted with yourself for your canny knowledge and what you could with your equity. Maybe trade up to a far better area then Dublin 24?

You still have your home, you've been meeting your mortgage payments since 2006 so continue to do that and nobody can touch you! So what have you to complain about? You were happy with the price you paid so deal done, what are you looking for?
Hey I see in the news if you become unemployed and can no longer meet your payments you can pause your mortgage for 12 months

Hold on while I tell my landlord I can't make rent payment this month, where's my bailout? :P

Highsider

AARRRGH wrote: »

Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.

Harsh but fair.

Rockshamrover

Has anyone noticed how over the years whenever there were questions raised in the media about property being over priced, the big banks would wheel out their "chief economists" to RTE. These guys would then spout on about how all was well and that the doom and gloom merchants hadn't a clue. Unfortunately most people believed the bank's experts.

These same experts are still in their jobs and are still being wheeled out but they are singing a different tune now.

Those unfortunates who now find themselves in dire straits should gather together a collection of the 'All is well" broadcasts and take the banks to the courts.

I thank God that I am not in the same position as all those who have had their fingers burned. I find it hard to condemn them for being caught out. Especially as their only crime was to believe what their banks told them.

aquascrotum

AARRRGH is spot on. House vendors, estate agents, mortgage brokers, banks - they're not there for your benefit, they're there for their own.

The banks, regulator, and our FF "leaders" (and many others) have made an utter balls of things but that doesn't remove personal responsibility the equation. If a person decides to willingly commit to a lifetime of needless debt "because the agent said it was a good deal" without putting in some cursory research and being aware of the implications (above and beyond a sales pitch) then it's their problem.

If people were gullible enough to suck it all in then tighten them. No sympathy at all for the OP.

MysticalSoul

OP: You buy a house, you take a chance. Everyone, or so I thought, knew it could not keep going as it was. I too bought in 2006, and I am not complaining, despite having had a 10% pay cut this year (private sector too). The way I look at it, the value doesn't really matter, unless you are thinking of selling.

CDfm

aquascrotum wrote: »

AARRRGH is spot on. House vendors, estate agents, mortgage brokers, banks - they're not there for your benefit, they're there for their own.

The banks, regulator, and our FF "leaders" (and many others) have made an utter balls of things but that doesn't remove personal responsibility the equation. If a person decides to willingly commit to a lifetime of needless debt "because the agent said it was a good deal" without putting in some cursory research and being aware of the implications (above and beyond a sales pitch) then it's their problem.

If people were gullible enough to suck it all in then tighten them. No sympathy at all for the OP.

Yup we are a free market economy and blaming the seller or mortgage company or estate agent for wanting to make a profit is just silly.Blaming the government is like blaming God for the weather.

You dont go to a bookie for a refund if your horse doesnt win.

Climate Expert

What rubbish.

Situation a: You have a job and can afford your mortgage. So what if you house falls in value, thats your problem. if it was a good idea to pay x amount in rent 2 years ago then its still ok today.
situation b: You can't afford your mortgage from losing job or income. Great now the country has to bail out the bank who has a bad asset on their books. Thanks for wasting all our money for being too clueless to realise what you were doing.

CDfm

Climate Expert wrote: »

What rubbish.

Situation a: You have a job and can afford your mortgage. So what if you house falls in value, thats your problem. if it was a good idea to pay x amount in rent 2 years ago then its still ok today.
situation b: You can't afford your mortgage from losing job or income. Great now the country has to bail out the bank who has a bad asset on their books. Thanks for wasting all our money for being too clueless to realise what you were doing.

+1 its your fault OP and taxpayers money is bailing you out

Climate Expert

our wages are absorbed by our mortgage so clearly this is the first point of my frustrations and I know that I am not the only one.

But interest rates have gone way down? So when you got the mortgage you were paying even more. At what point when you were getting a house did you think 'this is quite affordable'?
You're just bitter because your 'investment' hasn't worked and you can't boast about the value of your home to others.

HashSlinging

Climate Expert nail on the head.. All the party conversations are "how safe is your job".. not "how much is your house worth" now.. I predicted the burst of the bubble but due to personal circumstances had to buy a house, nothing but kips to rent in the area i was living so bought the cheapest house in the most decent area I could find (afford).. couldnt jump into council accommodation as I didnt qualify (to well off by bout 5k per year) well I hope things start looking up soon.. Some of us are not as lucky as others.

partyguinness

I nearly bought 2 years ago..house was €290k for a bog standard 3 bed semi-d..got 100% mortgage and had Contracts etc in front of me ready to sign...had a change of heart and pulled out...the house is now on the market for €210k...:eek:

I just thank my lucky stars I didnt sign those papers..very lucky escape..if I had bought it was my own fault and nobody elses..the hysteria this country went through was unreal...

the OP is just another Celtic Tiger sob story

dny123456

Climate Expert wrote: »

But interest rates have gone way down? So when you got the mortgage you were paying even more. At what point when you were getting a house did you think 'this is quite affordable'?
You're just bitter because your 'investment' hasn't worked and you can't boast about the value of your home to others.

OP might be on fixed rate?

I'm in a similar situation as OP, except on tracker and bought in 05. House price probably dropped at this stage, I dont know. Dont really care either, mortgage adjusting for Interest reliief, is still a lot less then rent for the same house would be. I've 3 years taken off the 30 year term of the loan. Who cares if the value has gone down. In 27 years I'll have a house :-)

OP don't worry, its not as bad as you think.

ntlbell

geggles1 wrote: »

Where is our bailout????

a for sale sign maybe?

geggles1 wrote: »

We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24, after being offered a mortgage 5 & 1/2 times our combined salary and being advised (if you could call it that, looking at it now) that we were getting a great deal.

Congratulations, compared to what some banks were lending 5 1/2 times combined seems reasonable enough

geggles1 wrote: »

We dealt with a mortgage broker at the time who took complete advantage of our naievity as first time buyers, and in fairness the broker was not alone. The estate agents, banks, developers and builders are all to blame along with the Financial Regulator, who let's face it, is proving to be a complete farce.

So considering you were about to make the biggest purchase of your life and get into a few decades of death did you not think of doing some of your own research?

geggles1 wrote: »

Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk. Given that the Financial Regulator is there to act in our best interest and give factual and relavent advice, why did they not do more to make first time buyers aware of the potential risks.

Why didn't you do more? the financial regulator is not your personal investment advisor, if your going to purchase a home the onus is on you to get clued in to watch the market maybe pick up a new paper? normal research?

geggles1 wrote: »

Given the example of the collapse that both Finland and The Netherlands experienced, it's clearly not rocket science that purchasing in such a market was not just a high risk, but a huge one. Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself for not doing more research about the collapse of other markets, but when you have people of what were once reputable institutions and everyone one around you is advising you to take the leap, it's no wonder there are so many of us stretching ourselves to the limit to provide as best as possible for our children.

why would vested interests advise you against making them money?

geggles1 wrote: »

I have a family and both myself and my partner work hard - damn hard actually, and I am fed up to the bone of being ripped off by our overpriced market - our wages are absorbed by our mortgage so clearly this is the first point of my frustrations and I know that I am not the only one.

I would be really interested to hear everyone's thoughts and in particular from other first time buyers to see what type of guideance (if any) was given when purchasing your property. I thinks it's time we took at stance on this and stood together!!

did the bank not tell you how much your re-payments would be? did you not add up the figures to see if you could afford the property?

i dont see why you want to take a stance you purchased a property i take you still live in it? so what exactly is your problem? are you annoyed it's worth less??

if your property increased by 100k would you want to take a stance?

i'm really confused to what your issue actually is

you bought a house your now living in it

happy days no?

AARRRGH

ntlbell wrote: »

So considering you were about to make the biggest purchase of your life and get into a few decades of death did you not think of doing some of your own research?

Suitable typo.

Fozzie Bear

Ah christ almighty would half of ye STFU. Talk about Shadenfraud gone mad. Some posters seem to be actually taking pleasure in rubbing peoples noses in their misfortune. Its your own fault, personal responsibility, I knew it was a bubble, I did not buy, I am great blah blah blah.

The OP bought an over priced house off the back of the advice they received off their broker, our government, the banks, the media, estate agents and the property developers. These fúckers one and all should be taken out and strung up by their toes nails for what they have done to the country. The ordinary joe soaps on the street who are left with crippling debts, no job and in all likely hood no home do not deserve to be pontificated to by you or me from a top our moral high horse. It is pathetic that all we can say is it's your own fault to the OP.

His own fault for wanting a home? His own fault that the Government let house prices run unchecked? His own fault that our leaders, bankers and property developers all climbed into bed together and raped the rest of us for all they could and got rich off our blood, sweat and now tears.

It is not his own fault. It IS the fault of the vested interests in this country who created the bubble and despite knowing what it was and where it was headed continued to advise families to buy knowing they were headed for massive debt, wrecked credit ratings, negative equity, hardship and suffering for the rest of their lives! There are people out there right now who will loose their homes and spend much of their remaining years renting or living with parents while paying off debts and interest while never being able to get credit/loans again.

As my grandmother used to say "mocking is catching" and some day some of you who are so happy to gloat at the OP might well find yourself in the same boat as the OP and be struggling to meet your debts and obligations because of bad advice or someone else misleading you.

I'm sure if you do, you will be able to take comfort from people you turn to for help when they reply "its your own fault".

Climate Expert

That post really upset me.

What about help for the rest of us that didn't mess up. **** the OP and his ilk. **** the bankers, the developers and the journalists who all contributed to this mess which I'm paying for it.
This is something which has and will have a massive impact on my job prospects, my wage and on my standard of living for the next decade and its not my fault. Its his fault so he can go jump looking for sympathy from me.

ntlbell

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

Ah christ almighty would half of ye STFU. Talk about Shadenfraud gone mad. Some posters seem to be actually taking pleasure in rubbing peoples noses in their misfortune. Its your own fault, personal responsibility, I knew it was a bubble, I did not buy, I am great blah blah blah.

No one that posted here bar the OP started the thread, the OP started a thread and people have responded with their opinion based on the post there is no glee here and I find no personal happiness in other people's mis fortune but that doesn't change the reality of the situation is that the OP should have done some research of their own back it's THEIR money THEIR "investment" and it's the biggest purchase of your life you don't make that on the back of some guy who's about to make a % of what you spend.

The OP probably puts more research into going on a cheap holiday in the sun than they did into buying a house.

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

The OP bought an over priced house off the back of the advice they received off their broker, our government, the banks, the media, estate agents and the property developers. These fúckers one and all should be taken out and strung up by their toes nails for what they have done to the country. The ordinary joe soaps on the street who are left with crippling debts, no job and in all likely hood no home do not deserve to be pontificated to by you or me from a top our moral high horse. It is pathetic that all we can say is it's your own fault to the OP.

No one is saying the above don't have to take some blame, but the OP has to take the blame for THEIR part right? we can all give each other hugs and say bad things about the bad EA and the mortgage brokers but they didn't sign for the loan the OP did and did no research of their own it has nothing to do with moral high horse it's just the reality of the situation

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

His own fault for wanting a home? His own fault that the Government let house prices run unchecked? His own fault that our leaders, bankers and property developers all climbed into bed together and raped the rest of us for all they could and got rich off our blood, sweat and now tears.

Wanting a home is not a crime, but not fully researching the market before purchasing one is THIER FAULT no one elses. penny dropping yet?

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

It is not his own fault. It IS the fault of the vested interests in this country who created the bubble and despite knowing what it was and where it was headed continued to advise families to buy knowing they were headed for massive debt, wrecked credit ratings, negative equity, hardship and suffering for the rest of their lives! There are people out there right now who will loose their homes and spend much of their remaining years renting or living with parents while paying off debts and interest while never being able to get credit/loans again.

It IS their fault for not doing THEIR part, VI's are there to make money and make money they did because people were lazy and wanted to get on the party train. the OP has a home they live in it? so whats the problem?

if the OP could afford it in 2006 they can certrinaly afford it now and negative equity doesn't matter as long as they're not selling so they have the home they bought it's more affordable now than it was then happy days?

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

As my grandmother used to say "mocking is catching" and some day some of you who are so happy to gloat at the OP might well find yourself in the same boat as the OP and be struggling to meet your debts and obligations because of bad advice or someone else misleading you.

I'm sure if you do, you will be able to take comfort from people you turn to for help when they reply "its your own fault".

who's gloating? how do you know we're not in the same boat?

what is the same boat

buying a house that you wanted living in it and it costs less now to finance the mortgage than it did 3 years ago?

doesn't sound like a bad boat to be in

jobless

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

. The ordinary joe soaps on the street who are left with crippling debts, no job and in all likely hood no home do not deserve to be pontificated to by you or me from a top our moral high horse. It is pathetic that all we can say is it's your own fault to the OP.

The OP has the same debts as he had 2 years ago (slightly less maybe). He knew full well what debts he was taking on. What makes them crippling now?... Also he didnt mention he had lost his job...
The most was more of my house has lost value and i'm sick about it...
As the other posters said had he bought it in 2002 and had make 100k on it he wouldnt give a sh*t....

If he'd come on here and said i've lost my job, in negative equity up sh*t creek then there would be more sympathy....

I could have bought three of four years ago also but did my research(seems few did) and read up housing bubbles etc, i'm so happy i did.... thank god for web sites like the property pin and the bubble thread here....

jobless

ntlbell wrote: »

The OP probably puts more research into going on a cheap holiday in the sun than they did into buying a house.

spot on.... i know people who would have done more research into buying a car than a house.... and would also have tried to get a better deal on the car than the house

CDfm

Climate Expert wrote: »

That post really upset me.

What about help for the rest of us that didn't mess up. **** the OP and his ilk. **** the bankers, the developers and the journalists who all contributed to this mess which I'm paying for it.
This is something which has and will have a massive impact on my job prospects, my wage and on my standard of living for the next decade and its not my fault. Its his fault so he can go jump looking for sympathy from me.

The Bankers lent money for profit which is what banks do.

The journalists tell stories to sell newspapers.

The developers sell property for profit.

The Civil and public Sector regulate banks especially issues to do with their lending practices and balance sheets and reserves. It seems to me that the regulators spend loads of time on advertising campaigns and enforcing rules on advertising risks of investments.

When have we ever heard the regulator say - the bank is at risk because they are lending too much money. FFS the best the Regulator (who reports into the CS) could say was it hasn't happened in the UK. Yet - banks have collapsed in recent memory in the UK. The Govt had to bail out AIB in 1985 over the Insurance Corporation of Ireland. AIB had a huge loss from a togue trader.

I think the Public Sector Technocrats should shoulder some blame.

AARRRGH

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

Ah christ almighty would half of ye STFU. Talk about Shadenfraud gone mad. Some posters seem to be actually taking pleasure in rubbing peoples noses in their misfortune. Its your own fault, personal responsibility, I knew it was a bubble, I did not buy, I am great blah blah blah.

No, we are just pointing out he is wrong to blame other people for his own mistakes.

Should we be biting our tongue?

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

The OP bought an over priced house off the back of the advice they received off their broker, our government, the banks, the media, estate agents and the property developers. These fúckers one and all should be taken out and strung up by their toes nails for what they have done to the country.

No one forced anyone to buy anything.

I know a lot of people have great difficulty grasping this in life, but you alone are responsibile for your own actions.

It doesn't matter if you have people pressuring you, whether it's your father or the media or Bertie, only you are capable of making your decisions.

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

The ordinary joe soaps on the street who are left with crippling debts, no job and in all likely hood no home do not deserve to be pontificated to by you or me from a top our moral high horse. It is pathetic that all we can say is it's your own fault to the OP.

If you read what the OP posted, he is trying to blame his unfortunate/bad decision on someone other than him. That is why we are saying "no, it's your own fault".

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

His own fault for wanting a home?

No one is saying there is anything wrong with wanting a home. I think you need to re-read the posts in this thread.

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

It is not his own fault.

Unless they forced him to buy a house, and by "forced" I mean held a gun to his head, then it is his own fault.

Anyone who bothered to do any sort of research into why we have booming house prices would have seen it is because we were in the middle of a property bubble.

The problem is the OP believed what the sales people told him, and didn't bother doing any of his own research, or dare I say it, didn't care and bought anyway.

Re-read the thread. You have misread it.

gamer

if your house gos down in value by 20per cent,then what difference does it make, if you are still working and intend to stay there 4 20years ,there were economists who stated we were in a property from 2004 on,but they were ignored by most people.THE buyers who are worst off in a way are those who bought in posh areas ,ie a 1bed apartment for 300k which is only worth 220k now.IF YOU are happy to live there ,than the house value is amost irrelevant.AN economy based on rising house prices is unsustainable,as eventually the number of buyers who can afford mega mortgages becomes tiny or approaches zero.ITS like buying a new car for 50 grand on hire purchase,from 2004 the market was based on hype /fantasy not based on economic reality.IN THE long term this economy will ony recover when costs go down and production/exports go up,to put it simply this country cant survive if its based on people selling houses to each other.

3DataModem

geggles1 wrote: »

Where is our bailout????

Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk. Given that the Financial Regulator is there to act in our best interest and give factual and relavent advice, why did they not do more to make first time buyers aware of the potential risks.

Bullsh!t.

You signed a document at the time that is required by the consumer credit act, which provides ample information about the risks. You were warned on EVERY mortgage form you signed that your "house may be at risk if you cannot keep up payments".

Also... what effort did you make to find out more information?

Did you try:
http://www.itsyourmoney.ie/index.jsp?1nID=93&2nID=94&pID=103&nID=114&aID=0

No?

How about Citizens Advice?

No?

How about talking to friends and neighbors about whether they thought it was a good idea?

No?

I suppose it was everybody's fault but yours.

You ASKED the seller to sell you the house (did you expect him to say no?)
You ASKED the bank for the mortgage (they believed you could afford it - and it's costing you a lot less now then it did then, so they were right!)

But you did no research yourself.

Forgive me if I'm not too sympathetic (unless you have lost your job - in which case I am genuinely sympathetic...)

CDfm

gamer wrote: »

if your house gos down in value by 20per cent,then what difference does it make, if you are still working and intend to stay there 4 20years ,there were economists who stated we were in a property from 2004 on,but they were ignored by most people.THE buyers who are worst off in a way are those who bought in posh areas ,ie a 1bed apartment for 300k which is only worth 220k now.IF YOU are happy to live there ,than the house value is amost irrelevant.AN economy based on rising house prices is unsustainable,as eventually the number of buyers who can afford mega mortgages becomes tiny or approaches zero.ITS like buying a new car for 50 grand on hire purchase,from 2004 the market was based on hype /fantasy not based on economic reality.IN THE long term this economy will ony recover when costs go down and production/exports go up,to put it simply this country cant survive if its based on people selling houses to each other.

Very sensible and you have to live somewhere.

Thats it really - the only ones hurting are those who have overpaid and speculated.

Negative equity really affects people who want to move -houses are still selling.

Iago

I paid €305k for a two bedroomed house in 2006. It wouldn't have been my choice to do so but circumstances dictated it so I was fine with it. I was aware that there was a bubble and it was likely to go pop at any stage, not to the degree it has mind you (and I still think it's only starting to scrape the top off the issues we will have)

The last time I had it valued it was up to €330k, but I'd probably be lucky to get €225k for it at this stage. That's nobodys fault, not even the government (cue the life of brian jokes) just the way it is. I didn't buy the house thinking I'd sell it on for a profit, I bought it as a home and a place to live. I suppose it was an investment, but not one expected to reap monetary gain.

It is frustrating that you spend your life working hard through school and college, internships and junior positions to get to a stage where you can buy your own property only to have the value sucked out from underneath you. You know what though, compared to 95% of the world we're still far better off, we still have very high levels of employment, were people are unfortunately unemployed there are decent state benefits and allowances to help them through.

If you bought a home then you still have a home. If you bought a financial investment then you either didn't research the market or ignored what it was telling you.

CDfm

Fozzie Bear wrote: »

The OP bought an over priced house off the back of the advice they received off their broker, our government, the banks, the media, estate agents and the property developers. These fúckers one and all should be taken out and strung up

His own fault for wanting a home? His own fault that the Government let house prices run unchecked? His own fault that our leaders, bankers and property developers all climbed into bed together and raped the rest of us for all they could and got rich off our blood, sweat and now tears.

It is not his own fault. It IS the fault of the vested interests in this country who created the bubble and despite knowing what it was and where it was headed continued to advise families to buy knowing they were headed for massive debt, wrecked credit ratings, negative equity, hardship and suffering for the rest of their lives! There are people out there right now who will loose their homes and spend much of their remaining years renting or living with parents while paying off debts and interest while never being able to get credit/loans again.

THis sounds like an impassioned speech of a lawayer for the defence. "M'lud my client bought the house because he believed everything he read in the papers."

Ireland is a free market economy as is the EU -thats the Constitutional & Economic Model we have -the government has no powers to regulate those areas.

Your post sounds like paranoid delusional claptrap or a political rant and because it is so well written I suspect you know as much.

The same blocklayers that charged 1.50 euro to lay a block are today unemployed or working abroad. Were other tradesmens prices regulated? Were the prices electricians and plumbers regulated? Were electricians prices regulated? These all added to the costs too. Will you have the tradesmen pay them back.

Even today - the workers at SRTechnics whose union wouldnt negotiate with management last year are unemployed.THe company was loss making.It couldnt give competetive tenders to Aer Lingus or Gulf Air. Do you blame the Unions for loosing the plot?

I think you need to do some joined up thinking as you are giving others reasons to feel sorry for themselves rather then take personal responsibility and get enthusiastically on and make the best with what they have.

TwoShedsJackson

geggles1 wrote: »

Where is our bailout????

We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24, after being offered a mortgage 5 & 1/2 times our combined salary and being advised (if you could call it that, looking at it now) that we were getting a great deal.

It's like being sold a car, you're always going to be told you're getting a great deal from the person SELLING it to you.

We dealt with a mortgage broker at the time who took complete advantage of our naievity as first time buyers, and in fairness the broker was not alone. The estate agents, banks, developers and builders are all to blame along with the Financial Regulator, who let's face it, is proving to be a complete farce.

See above.

Not once during our whole experience, were either myself or my partner advised that purchasing a property in such a buoyant market was a high risk. Given that the Financial Regulator is there to act in our best interest and give factual and relavent advice, why did they not do more to make first time buyers aware of the potential risks.

It's caveat emptor there I'm afraid.

Given the example of the collapse that both Finland and The Netherlands experienced, it's clearly not rocket science that purchasing in such a market was not just a high risk, but a huge one. Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself for not doing more research about the collapse of other markets, but when you have people of what were once reputable institutions and everyone one around you is advising you to take the leap, it's no wonder there are so many of us stretching ourselves to the limit to provide as best as possible for our children.

At the end of the day it's you who signed the contract so you need to shoulder most if not all the blame too. If, as others have pointed out, you still have jobs and can meet your mortgage repayments, live in relative comfort, and are not looking to sell any time soon, what's the problem?

So I ask, where is our bail out? Where is the Taoiseach's help when we need it most? Well it would seem, that the petty criminals i.e. the fat cats sitting in our banks are getting all the help while we pay for their actions. How dare they get bailed out whilst we cling to our jobs for our life. After all, it is without doubt, that their actions over the past 10 years are what have contributed most to this recession. Not only have they been bailed out, but they continue to get rewarded for their bad decisions over the years - a 30% pay cut is a joke. Cowen should be looking to Obama and following in his footsteps with a $500K cap on their earnings. It would seem that our government is completely inept and incapable of being able to relate to what the people of this country actually need.

Why is most people's first reaction to what they perceive adversity to be, to ask for a bailout??

AARRRGH

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Why is most people's first reaction to what they perceive adversity to be, to ask for a bailout??

Because they're a bit thick?

Seriously, I think a lot of people don't fully understand how the world works, e.g. OMG I never knew my investment could lose money?!

ntlbell

AARRRGH wrote: »

Seriously, I think a lot of people don't fully understand how the world works, e.g. OMG I never knew my investment could lose money?!

They do seem to have serious problems understanding how the housing market works that's for sure.

I think people are learning two things now.

Rent is not always dead money.

And property prices do in fact go down.

It was a very hard way to learn the two lessons.

johnnyskeleton

AARRRGH wrote: »

Take personal responsibility for your mistake. Plenty of people, including me, didn't buy property because we thought it was obvious we were in the middle of a property bubble.

You couldn't see that. That's your own fault.

I agree, and in any event think the blame game is pointless. I came across a great phrase on the pin recently - Just because it isn't your fault, doesn't mean it's not your responsibility.

gurramok wrote: »

The one signal i would have had in your position OP without any knowledge of housing markets is:
Would a house that was going for over 300k in D24 represent good value to you? (tbh, think they were 350k-400k there at the time)

You, me and alot of others know the answer(madness) to that and that should of been a personal warning sign to everyone that something was amiss and made you walk away from that transaction.

I think this is a more important point than the other point being made, namely that there were dissenting voices saying that property prices would crash. At the end of the day, I don't blame anyone for not predicting the crash, but I do think people should have done the maths themselves to see if a property was worth what they were paying (read borrowing). There were so many people who were earning good wages (e.g. 30-40k) but who said that 4x that is only 120-160k, for which they could buy nothing in Dublin and little in the rest of Ireland. Some accepted that property was therefore overpriced and rented, others tried to skew the numbers by adding to their income the income from renting a room (+10k), and the maximum overtime they could get (say +5k) an illusory christmas bonus (+2k) that promotion that is just around the corner (+10k) etc.

CDfm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I agree, and in any event think the blame game is pointless. I came across a great phrase on the pin recently - Just because it isn't your fault, doesn't mean it's not your responsibility.



I think this is a more important point than the other point being made, namely that there were dissenting voices saying that property prices would crash. At the end of the day, I don't blame anyone for not predicting the crash, but I do think people should have done the maths themselves to see if a property was worth what they were paying (read borrowing). There were so many people who were earning good wages (e.g. 30-40k) but who said that 4x that is only 120-160k, for which they could buy nothing in Dublin and little in the rest of Ireland. Some accepted that property was therefore overpriced and rented, others tried to skew the numbers by adding to their income the income from renting a room (+10k), and the maximum overtime they could get (say +5k) an illusory christmas bonus (+2k) that promotion that is just around the corner (+10k) etc.

I agree with you. You could get a very good book on all financial matters by Bill Tyson who preceeded Eddie Hobbs as the personal finance guru. It amazes me that with all the information available and knowledge of boom n' bust cylcles in the UK property market people still claim innocence.

Its just not a credible excuse.

pvt.joker

geggles1 wrote: »

Perhaps I have no one to blame but myself

+1


You have no-one to blame but yourself.

Electric Sheep

geggles1 wrote: »

Where is our bailout????

We purchased our first property in 2006 in Dublin 24, after being offered a mortgage 5 & 1/2 times our combined salary and being advised (if you could call it that, looking at it now) that we were getting a great deal.

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they, they were selling you a product.

geggles1 wrote: »

Given the example of the collapse that both Finland and The Netherlands experienced, it's clearly not rocket science that purchasing in such a market was not just a high risk, but a huge one.

Since it was not rocket science, it should have been obvious to you as well.

Sit tight, and in 10 years your house will be back up to the price you paid. That's how it went in London during the property bust there in the early 90s.

SoupyNorman

ntlbell wrote: »

Rent is not always dead money.

Amen there.

Ive been paying rent since 2007 after finishing college. Most of that time was spent worrying because I couldnt afford to get on the property ladder and all this money was going to waste.

Now however, I'm coming into a position where I will soon be able to buy a property and moreover, The drop in house prices is far greater then what I have paid in rent in two years, I could go on renting for another year safe in the knowledge prices will most likely continue to fall.


I'm in a great position :pac:

I just cannot feel sympathy for people who got sucked into to the property hysteria, yes there was mortgage brokers to blame e.t.c but when it came to sign on the dotted line on a contract stating that you are purchasing a ground floor apartment just off the slip road to the M50 for €500k YOU signed it...in any case, how much were you expecting the price to appreciate?


To the <snip>Shy</snip>OP, Ireland is an open free market economy. If you dont want to live in an economy where house prices fluctuate then move to North Korea.

Firetrap

Buying a house is a risk. I personally took a risk in not buying a house back when they were throwing money at anyone who looked for it because I believed that we were in a massive property bubble. Even back in 2005/2006 there were dissenting voices in amongst the property cheerleaders. Of course, they were knocked for being cranks but the likes of David McWilliams were talking a lot of sense.

I'm now very happy that I didn't take the plunge and that I don't have relatives asking me when am I going to buy. On the flip side, I'm still renting (and getting fed up of it) and I like to think that I will be able to buy something that doesn't involve having to take strangers into my home or my living on bread and water for the next 25 years. The victims weren't just the people who bought. The people who were priced out of the market by greed are also victims; only difference is they're not in negative equity.

Moonbeam

I would not call you a victim,How could you enter in to such a huge purchase with out doing research and reading the small print?
I was quite young buying my house but I made sure to understand the risks involved and questioned the banks etc to get the best deal.
I bought my house in 2004 and have not regretted it once,it is small and further from my job then I would like but my mortgage is lower then rent that I would pay anywhere and that leaves me in a great position to save towards my next house.
I have not bought my next house as I do not believe now is the time to buy unless something you have had your eye on finally comes up for a price that you can afford.