Should Croker Bowl be completed?

Stupido

I would like to see the Croker bowl finished off. The upper tiers could swing around over Hill 16 (minus the premium level), and over the railway as well.

It would finish the stadium nicely and give a capacity of c.95,000 too!

Any thoughts?

Drummerboy2

Dont think it is possible. Would mean closing the railway line, which is unlikely as its the line to the west.

dcr22B

Stupido wrote: »

I would like to see the Croker bowl finished off. The upper tiers could swing around over Hill 16 (minus the premium level), and over the railway as well.

It would finish the stadium nicely and give a capacity of c.95,000 too!

Any thoughts?

Will never happen as the railway track and the houses behind Hill 16 are a massive hindrance to it plus us Dubs don't want to lose the Hill!

Stupido

Hill wouldn't be lost, just build the upper tier over it (there is room...I checked plans & elevations) minus the boxes and premium level

Regarding the railway, if there is clearance they could support the upper tier by straddling the railway. It would mean supports in the embankment but the line does not necessarily have to close to facilitate the works

homerjay2005

ideally yes, would look great. will it happen? No, good times are over, theres loans to be paid. i cant see any work on croker for 20-30 years.

stadium was built at right time - just as celtic tiger sat in and finished before the cost of developing shot up around 2004.

Stupido

Didn't think there was much left to be paid off, and the increased capacity and football & rugby have helped in this regard.

Bigger capacity = bigger revenue. No sign of crowds getting smaller at the moment!

UpTheSlashers

dcr22B wrote: »

Will never happen as the railway track and the houses behind Hill 16 are a massive hindrance to it plus us Dubs don't want to lose the Hill!

Croke Park isnt all about Dublin's preferences

Xavi6

The stadium, while generally magnificent, just looks unfinished with that horrible looking Hill. If they want to keep it then fair enough but at least build on top of it.

Tristram

Are you sure it's possible?

frangleberry

Believe it or not Croker will be paid in full by the end of this year (They got 1.4mill last night alone) so cash wouldn't be the problem.

If anything was a problem it would be the housing behind the hill.The train line wouldn't be a problem they can build over ala Landsdowne Rd.

lemd

The biggest problem has always been the local residents when it comes to developing Croke park. Straddling the railway would also be a difficult thing to do, you would be working over and excavating beside a live track and when loading the ground around the track with several thousand tonnes once finished. This could cause subsidence of the track which is a very serious issue.

On the other hand, it would be great to see it completed!

IIMII

dcr22B wrote: »

Will never happen as the railway track and the houses behind Hill 16 are a massive hindrance

I'd understood that the GAA were quietly buying these up..

frangleberry wrote: »

Believe it or not Croker will be paid in full by the end of this year

Yup

And the stand in question would be a northerly stand so it wouldn't take away light-wise any more than it is at present. You'd loose a pretty amazing view though. Mind you it would be marginally easier to get tickets at times

Daysha

Being honest, I like having the option of going to the hill. I always try to stick to terraces as much as possible during the Championship as the atmosphere is significantly greater than anywhere else in the stadium. The only times I choose not to go to the terraces is when the crowd isn't segregated.

I'm happy the GAA decided to keep the hill too. If they didn't I'd fear the stadium would just become another soulless bowl like so many of the stadiums in England.

IIMII

Maybe. But it's closed half the time anyway. Being a dub that used to go to the hill (it's the stands now with the brat), it's got a fair dose of scumbags that never played Gaelic games. But with that said I'd like to keep the hill, even it were built with a stand overhanging. But not because Dublin off-soccer season supporters like it, but because it has it's own history and it is colourful. What does piss me off though is the attitude that Dublin owns the hill, that episode with Pillar a few years ago was daft

Diabhal Beag

Croker is perfect just the way it is. It would only be a generic stadium such as Wembley or The Emirates if it was a bowl. Leave a masterpiece to be just that

Daysha

Little Shyte wrote: »

Croker is perfect just the way it is. It would only be a generic stadium such as Wembley or The Emirates if it was a bowl. Leave a masterpiece to be just that

Agreed. In fact, since Croker and other GAA stadiums are much vaster than soccer pitches due to the pitch size, the atmosphere could be even worse than what you'll see over in England.

blackbelt

Croke Park is perfect the way it is.Why standardise it to soccer or "European standards"?

The Hill is a big piece of history for the GAA alone and caters for those who prefer to stand at games (me included).

Plus it would cause too much disruption to residents and the railway line going to Maynooth and the west.

Then you have the elements..sunshine,wind etc.The Hill allows for the natural elements to have its bearing on the game which is what happens at every other intercounty or club match.

4 stands??...no thanks.

Pride Fighter

What i would like to see is the Croker bowl completed. The railway line jammed under the new construction, with the lower tier of the newly built croker terraced with the upper tier seated. You cannot really terrace an upper tier, people can fall 50 feet to their death. The name Hill 16 has to be kept for the terrace and maybe the top bit could be called the Dineen stand. Just my opinion on the matter.

K-9

It's Croke Park, it's Hill 16.

It isn't Twickenham, Wembley, Old Trafford or the AVIRA stadium.

paul larry

croker is perfect as it is. esp with hill 16. it was great to be there twice in last 6months and see the dubs eating that humble pie. particularly back on that rainy day in august. and it will be a great place to watch the o neill county pick up every sam maguire for the forseeable future...... tir eoghain for sam 09

Pride Fighter

paul larry wrote: »

croker is perfect as it is. esp with hill 16. it was great to be there twice in last 6months and see the dubs eating that humble pie. particularly back on that rainy day in august. and it will be a great place to watch the o neill county pick up every sam maguire for the forseeable future...... tir eoghain for sam 09

LOL, even though I am a Dub I am happy Tyrone beat us, I am half Tyrone. There was no reason to eat humble pie, we are a good team that got beaten by the best, nothing wrong there IMO.

keystone

95000

Any need for this number?

It would be nice to do it but considering the fact that it would be full only a few times a year...whats the point?

Develop regional stadiums would be a better model.

apoch632

Only ever been on it for the rugby. Should be kept as is.


Only thing I would have said. And the railway probably limits it. Is I don't like the way it steps down. Would love for it to be an even terrace if you get what i mean. If it was all at the level of the highest point and went the whole way around as one big terrace instead of the way it is with the Dineen part of it

sceptre

Interesting that no-one mentioned the Millennium Stadium, where they've their own problems with a stand they couldn't replace. Obviously it's not quite the same thing but Glanmor's Gap still makes the North stand look odd and unfinished.

If they did, what's the main difference between the problems with the railway line at Croker compared with the issue Lansdowne must have had?

Funkstard

blackbelt wrote: »

Croke Park is perfect the way it is.Why standardise it to soccer or "European standards"?

The Hill is a big piece of history for the GAA alone and caters for those who prefer to stand at games (me included).

Plus it would cause too much disruption to residents and the railway line going to Maynooth and the west.

Then you have the elements..sunshine,wind etc.The Hill allows for the natural elements to have its bearing on the game which is what happens at every other intercounty or club match.

4 stands??...no thanks.

Can I just point out that Croke Park was designed on an American model and in terms of size, angle of inclination of tiers and design of the stands is based off the American bowl U-shape stadium model, with the awkward addition of the Hill being squeezed in. It already is 'standard' and unoriginal.

Now of course it's a great stadium which brings in the obvious point that it's not the stadium that makes it 'soulless' but the fans that occupy it and the atmosphere they generate.

In terms of the elements...unless you are going to cover the roof á la the Millennium stadium in Cardiff then the stadium will be subject to the same forces as it is now, erecting a stand over Hill 16 will not make a noticable difference. Unless you like the swirly wind effect which as far as I know is not a phenomenon replicated in many provincial grounds?

The railway line seems to me a moot point, considering what has happened with the Landsdowne road redevelopment and the construction over the DART line, which caused little or no disruption to services there.

Just my two cents. Croke Park is undoubtedly a magnificent stadium, but I don't see past it being a modern day multiple of many stadia around the world. Incredible as it is, what rubble it is built on does not a piece of history make it.

IIMII

I've never been in a major soccer/rubgy stadium so I don't feel threatened by their atmosphere, or lack thereof. The only large stadium I am familiar with is Croke Park, and to be honest irrespective of stands (they can incorporate the hill ffs), Croker to me will always be a special place. It doesn't have to have a different shape to the colloseum to appreciate it's place in our history

If you are a GAA supporter, Croker will always be unique no matter what types of bowls they have in other sports. If you have a problem with a completed stadium because thats what they have when you go to rubgy or soccer matches, well it's a pity about you - Just stop going to the English soccer and international rubgy matches and you'll be grand..!:)

blackbelt

I walk past Croke Park twice a day going to and coming back from work everyday.Construction there is not sustainable.Health and safety issues are just too much for the railway line and the residents on Jones Road and Clonliffe Road.My grandfather was part of the construction company which built the roof of the old Hogan Stand.I asked him about this years ago and he said that it was nearly impossible to do physically as the dimensions were just too tight and then there would be the huge obstacle of planning permission.

As for Croke Park not being a piece of history.I invite you to watch programs such as GAA Gold and watch the Dublin-Kerry games of the 70s and Heffo's army,programs about Bloody Sunday,the history of the GAA and the admission of rugby and soccer into Croke Park (rule 42).Whatever you think of Croke Park,it is a huge piece of history in Irish culture and folklore.

Xavi6

blackbelt wrote: »

Croke Park is perfect the way it is.Why standardise it to soccer or "European standards"?

The Hill is a big piece of history for the GAA alone and caters for those who prefer to stand at games (me included).

Plus it would cause too much disruption to residents and the railway line going to Maynooth and the west.

Then you have the elements..sunshine,wind etc.The Hill allows for the natural elements to have its bearing on the game which is what happens at every other intercounty or club match.

4 stands??...no thanks.

I don't think anyone would really be up for knocking the Hill completely, just building over it.

The stadium just looks unfinished like there was a half arsed job done at the end. It doesn't look good at all imo.

Stupido

Lads......

When I started this discussion I DID NOT PROPOSE TO DEMOLISH THE HILL.....

All I said was continue the upper tier OVER IT

TheBa

deise59 wrote: »

Agreed. In fact, since Croker and other GAA stadiums are much vaster than soccer pitches due to the pitch size, the atmosphere could be even worse than what you'll see over in England.

Croke Park is a class act, but of course it would look much better if the upper tier was completed over the Hill.

But where is this misconception coming from, that English stadia have no soul?

I was at Upton Park for a Premiership game between West Ham and Charlton and the atmosphere exceeded any GAA game I've ever attended.
Mind you, I've also been to Old Trafford and was in a particularly dull section of the crowd, but the atmosphere was still top class in the Stretford End and amongst the away supporters.

The point I'm making is, in an exciting game where the stadium is full of 'real' supporters, how could having an extra 10,000 fans and having the stadium more enclosed compromise the atmosphere to the level of "soulless"?!

Ridiculous point...

Daysha

TheBa wrote: »

Croke Park is a class act, but of course it would look much better if the upper tier was completed over the Hill.

But where is this misconception coming from, that English stadia have no soul?

I was at Upton Park for a Premiership game between West Ham and Charlton and the atmosphere exceeded any GAA game I've ever attended.
Mind you, I've also been to Old Trafford and was in a particularly dull section of the crowd, but the atmosphere was still top class in the Stretford End and amongst the away supporters.

The point I'm making is, in an exciting game where the stadium is full of 'real' supporters, how could having an extra 10,000 fans and having the stadium more enclosed compromise the atmosphere to the level of "soulless"?!

Ridiculous point...

Sorry, should have been more clear. The point you quoted above was my interpretation of what would happen if the terrace was completed demolished and an all-seater bowl is created instead.

I think it's common knowledge at this stage that the atmospheres in English stadiums have decreased dramatically since terraces went out and more corporate boxes went in.

An 80,000 capacity stadium with a terrace will create a far greater atmosphere than a 100,000 all seater.

Xavi6

Xavi6 wrote: »

I don't think anyone would really be up for knocking the Hill completely, just building over it.

The stadium just looks unfinished like there was a half arsed job done at the end. It doesn't look good at all imo.

Who cares if it looks unfinished? It is a magical place. I love it there. As a Dub I got to see Tyrone hammer us from the most atmospheric stand I've ever been in. The Dublin -v- Kerry game the year before had a genuinely electric atmosphere.

Leave the Hill alone, it gives the place a unique aspect and it's a place of special memories for people from all counties.

Mossy Monk

I look forward to the day that the GAA finish it.

Daysha

Tis a shame that the GAA can one of the most historical and culturally significant areas in Irish history into a world class venue that every Irishman should be proud of, yet some people still have time to complain about it...

IIMII

Yup. We should just get on with it as soon as possible and build the overhang / upper tier. Maybe they could but some artisic design on the ceiling over the hill, CúChullain with a hurley or a design replica of the 1916 memorial in the GPO

Quint

I don't think anyone means get rid of the terrace, there could always be standing in the lower tier where the hill is. But just looking at an OS map, you would probably need to buy up at least30 houses on clonliff road. That's to give it the same size and access as the canal end.

dcr22B

UpTheSlashers wrote: »

Croke Park isnt all about Dublin's preferences

I'm well aware of that just making a comment from the Dubs point of view

Deedsie

They should finish it off, it would be great if they could put in a DART stop at Croke park used for match days. They should finish it off while keeping a standing section under neath. That would keep the stadium original.

Im a big GAA fan but, at the moment Croke park just looks unfinished.

Daysha

Has whats been suggested in the OP ever actually been created anywhere else? A two tiered stand with standing at the bottom and sitting at the top?

Can't recall anything like that existing elsewhere

newballsplease

Stupido wrote: »

Didn't think there was much left to be paid off, and the increased capacity and football & rugby have helped in this regard.

Bigger capacity = bigger revenue. No sign of crowds getting smaller at the moment!

sure the stadium is only full 4 or 5 times a year.

IIMII

deise59 wrote: »

Has whats been suggested in the OP ever actually been created anywhere else? A two tiered stand with standing at the bottom and sitting at the top?

Can't recall anything like that existing elsewhere

True - a chance for us to create something unique..:D But the principles are the same more or less from a design perspective, so there shouldn't really be a problem. It could be designed as the defining feature if done properly and with artistic merit kept in mind. You know, with a few waterfalls and the like to give it atmosphere.!!

But seriously, if you had the Hill 16 terrace below, it could be designed to be converted easily and quickly to a large stage for concert use. I don't know, there must be possibilities in terms of what could be done, and could be made self financing, or at least revenue neutral over time

Quint

deise59 wrote: »

Has whats been suggested in the OP ever actually been created anywhere else? A two tiered stand with standing at the bottom and sitting at the top?

Can't recall anything like that existing elsewhere

Lansdowne! East stand

Browney7

Thomand Park has 2 terraces infront of the East and West stands but they are fairly small so a covered hill would be quite different alright.

Quint wrote: »

Lansdowne! East stand

Don't you mean the 'Aviva' stadium:D By God if the GAA ever tried to pull a stunt like that with Croke Park I wouldn't be a happy Camper!!

abadref

Stupido wrote: »

I would like to see the Croker bowl finished off. The upper tiers could swing around over Hill 16 (minus the premium level), and over the railway as well.

It would finish the stadium nicely and give a capacity of c.95,000 too!

Any thoughts?

No Lads..

I think the hill should remain as it is as a rememberance to 1916 and Bloody Sunday so in 100 years time when were all dead and gone when someone wonders why croke park isn't finished off it will be remembered.

Daysha

Quint wrote: »

Lansdowne! East stand

Ah yes. But like Browney said, it's a bit different to have a few rows of terraces in a stand parallel to the sidelines compared to a fully terraced stand behind a goal that fits 13,000 people.

IIMII

But the current hill isn't even the original hill, and the hill is of 1916 rubble rather than a 1916 site in it's own right. Not talking about doing away with hill, just sticking half a lid on it with a few seats..

Flukey

I think it is fine as it is. Because of the rail line and the fact that light would be blocked going into residents houses, it will never happen. If they were going to have a railway station at Croke Park, it should be on the line at the along the canal.

ccosgrave

I really don't see the need in spending a fortune on empty seats. There are very few games that see a full-house in Croke Park, particularly seeing as the rugby and soccer games will soon be moved back to Lansdowne. I simply can't see the point on spending so much money on aesthetics. Besides, it'll look twice as bad as it does now when there's 50,000 empty seats for most of the year.

Stupido

...if you build it, they will come......:cool:

An Citeog

deise59 wrote: »

Has whats been suggested in the OP ever actually been created anywhere else? A two tiered stand with standing at the bottom and sitting at the top?

Can't recall anything like that existing elsewhere

A few of the stadiums in Germany have a seated tier on top of a terrace. The RheinEnergieStadion in Cologne holds about 50,000, with about 8,000 of these on the terraces in the north and south stands.

Pride Fighter

An Citeog wrote: »

A few of the stadiums in Germany have a seated tier on top of a terrace. The RheinEnergieStadion in Cologne holds about 50,000, with about 8,000 of these on the terraces in the north and south stands.

Thats a sexy stadium.