Lansdowne Road too small?

Stupido

80,000 at Croker for 6N (for last 2 years BTW) and similar crowds for friendlies

65,000 at Croker last night for WC game (similar crowds for friendly v Poland)

Is Lansdowne Road going to be too small? It will actually be 54,500 capacity.

thoughts?

Noopti

I think the general consensus has always been that it is too small.

It should have been a 65,000 seater at least, in my opinion.

Hogzy

+1 on 65,000 MINIMUM!!!!!

I was shocked to see that it was only 54,000. I thought the whole point of building a new stadium was to increase the capacity drastically, I know there would be objections from residents... But why have a stadium basically right next to the city center, If they sold the land the would have made a MINT off of it that could go to building a stadium outside the city... But this is Ireland and things are done differently here!:rolleyes:

Stupido

Tradition tradition tradition.....


Anyway did you all know.....Lansdowne is almost an exact copy of the Arsenal stadium in London? If they completed the Havelock end of the ground it would hold 65,000..........! Maybe thats for another day.


I wonder has anyone been buying up houses down there....hmmm??

Crash

Oh come on now, with Lansdowne where it is, we're one of the few cities in the world with a stadium that close to the city centre, its fantastic. If they'd sold up and moved off to a greenfield site out north Dublin, or something similar, we'd all be bitching. It is too small probably, you're right, but i'd prefer a slightly smaller than wanted stadium 15 minutes from the city centre than a bigger one an hour plus away.

Noopti

I would also hate it if they moved it outside the city. I love the location of Landsdowne road, and can't wait for the games to be moved back there.

It is too small, but if I had the choice of the current stadium in its proper location, or a bigger one on the outskirts of Dublin I would choose the current setup everytime.

Podge_irl

Moving outside the city centre would ruin the atmosphere on match days (not that I've ever managed to make it to an Ireland game...).

The original plan was for 65,000 seats, but it required an extra tier of seating and wasn't going to get through the planning board. Shame really.

Tristram

Didn't realise the capacity will be so low. Disappointing.

LeoGilly

Well if the GAA has any sense then Croker should be used for the 6 nations.

Hogzy

LeoGilly wrote: »

Well if the GAA has any sense then Croker should be used for the 6 nations.

I think the GAA are still a bit caught up in the whole Irishness of Croke Park

themont85

Hogzy wrote: »

I think the GAA are still a bit caught up in the whole Irishness of Croke Park

There should be an arrangment for Croker to be used for the biggest games i.e potential Grand Slam/Championship games and HC semis. The IRFU won't do this however because of all the sponsorship ect such as Aviva who wouldn't be happy. The GAA would be more than willing now though after they've tasted the sweet extra euros the IRFU/FAI have given them.

dave13

LeoGilly wrote: »

Well if the GAA has any sense then Croker should be used for the 6 nations.

Can't happen. The IRFU need to pay for Lansdowne Road and cant do that with a significant portion of the profits for their main games going to the GAA. They'll make more money from 50000 at lansdown than 80000 at Croke Park.

anonymous_joe

I don't like Croke Park as much I liked Lansdowne Road. I know it's an infinitely better stadium, but it's too open, and the atmosphere doesn't seem right.

Anyway, we're all loving (myself included) the 80k capacity, but a few dodgy years would see that eroded I reckon.

Crash

What would be the point of using Croker for the 6 Nations? rebuild lansdowne and have 3 rugby matches there a year? or would we move the AI's as well?

Stupido

that is the other shame.... revamped staduim & facilities = premium product = right to charge more in the eyes of the IRFU.

Problem is the new facilities are only a catch up, because they wouldn't spend a penny on the old stadium. Rugby games will get too elitist, for the super wealthy only

IRFU will want to keep the same income and the only way of doing that is to increase ticket prices.

1st year in the last 20 I have not gone to 6N due to the price of tickets...Croke park should have meant a reduction in price as capacity was 30,000 greater than lansdowne...not so:mad:

p.s. I'm off to rome this weekend with ryanair & a €27 ticket for the game btw :D:D

twinytwo

Hogzy wrote: »

I think the GAA are still a bit caught up in the whole Irishness of Croke Park

Hell no they tried to get the Irfu to sign a lease again but they wouldnt.... gaa now going to be missing out on 2 million +

Bluetonic

All the new sponsorships for Lansdowne, the stadium name and the corporate boxes were all sold on the basis of it being used for all home rugby and soccer internationals.

Croke Park won't be seeing anything from the IRFU or FAI once it's built as the financial complications and reneging on commercial contracts would be complex to resolve.

40,000 capacity for Joe Public including away allocation is going to be far too small but the site had it's limitations and the plans make the most out of the availalbe space.

Here's the latest photos by the way, hosted on the main Lansdowne site but on one page here.

Crash

Just caught a bit on the news there, according to John Delaney the IRFU will host the first sporting event in Lansdowne road, potentially in the form of a Sevens competition.

Serenity Now!

Going Waterforward wrote: »

Just caught a bit on the news there, according to John Delaney the IRFU will host the first sporting event in Lansdowne road, potentially in the form of a Sevens competition.

Leinster v Ulster was the first game ever at Lansdowne Road.
It was also the last game ever before the stadium was downed for redevelopment.
Dont be surprised if it is the opening game either.

Serenity Now!

twinytwo wrote: »

Hell no they tried to get the Irfu to sign a lease again but they wouldnt.... gaa now going to be missing out on 2 million +

The GAA will now miss out on an average of €12m plus per annum (in a year of 4 home rugby intls -2 in 6N and 2 in november- and 5 soccer intls). And that is talking only about ground hire itself.

chupacabra

This idea that a 60,000+ stadium wasnt possible with the current site is bull. They could have been a bit bolder with the design as its fairly bland for the money they are putting into it. However its up to the planning board in the end.

Bluetonic

chupacabra wrote: »

This idea that a 60,000+ stadium wasnt possible with the current site is bull. They could have been a bit bolder with the design as its fairly bland for the money they are putting into it.

What exactly would you propose that would give us the capacity of 60,000+ you say is possible and still get planning permission?

Serenity Now!

chupacabra wrote: »

This idea that a 60,000+ stadium wasnt possible with the current site is bull. They could have been a bit bolder with the design as its fairly bland for the money they are putting into it

To enlarge the West or East side would have incurred objections.
To extend the South end was impossible because of a road and houses.
To extend the North end would have involved knocking down listed buildings (if even allowed!) and extending the end by 30m further North.

They couldn't build down because the area is over a marshland drained into by two rivers.

So what do you suggest then (and its not as if every possibility wouldn't have been considered either :rolleyes:)

youcrazyjesus!

Stupido wrote: »

Tradition tradition tradition.....


Anyway did you all know.....Lansdowne is almost an exact copy of the Arsenal stadium in London? If they completed the Havelock end of the ground it would hold 65,000..........! Maybe thats for another day.


I wonder has anyone been buying up houses down there....hmmm??

Aren't there houses there? Isn't that reason that end hasn't been fully developed to the height of the other stands?

55,000 is a bad joke. 65,000 minimum or don't bother building it imo.

youcrazyjesus!

Hogzy wrote: »

I think the GAA are still a bit caught up in the whole Irishness of Croke Park

Eh they've lended it to the other organisations for 3 years now. It will be 4 next year. They're earning tens of millions from it. It's actually the IRFU and FAI who will refuse to go to Croke Park for any more games. Philip Brown said that.

sdanseo

We're talking about a national monument. 55,000 is absolutely pointless.

In this case, the residents opinons should have been completely ignored and anyone who complained read the riot act - in fact in my opinion, more land should have been CPO purchased. The country and its reputation comes first.

Bluetonic

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Aren't there houses there? Isn't that reason that end hasn't been fully developed to the height of the other stands?

The worst possible houses, south facing houses.

Everyone complaining about the 50,000 (yes 50,000 not 55,000) where were you when the original debated was going on five years ago? It's all been covered now and nothing can be changed, complaining about it now isn't going to do any good. It's a trade off over location, city center and same capacity or out of town and large capacity in a soulless shell.

To think if we've waited a few years the government could call in the Anglo loan on the Irish Glass site down the raod and build a marvelous stadium there

ALH-06

Ok is it actually 50,000 or 55,000? I've always heard the first figure whenever the new Lansdowne Road is mentioned....

I agree - it's definitely too small to be our national stadium. But it was a compromise that had to be made.

Bluetonic

ALH-06 wrote: »

Ok is it actually 50,000 or 55,000? I've always heard the first figure whenever the new Lansdowne Road is mentioned....

I think it's safe to presume the planning permission record as having the correct info so here goes...

Lansdowne Road Stadium Development Company Limited intends to apply to Dublin City Council for a ten year permission for development of a multi-purpose stadium complex (62,032 sq m gross floor space), including: a stadium with an all-seater capacity of 50,000 persons (plus provision for up to 1,000 non-paying persons);

youcrazyjesus!

Bluetonic wrote: »

Everyone complaining about the 50,000 (yes 50,000 not 55,000) where were you when the original debated was going on five years ago?

What sort of comment is that?

I'm sure we were complaining about it then, too.

Bluetonic

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

What sort of comment is that?

There is nothing I can say that would answer a question like that.

Where would you have built it, what size and who would be paying for it?

youcrazyjesus!

Bluetonic wrote: »

There is nothing I can say that would answer a question like that.

Where would you have built it, what size and who would be paying for it?

I'm guessing anywhere it would have fit within as close to the city as possible with respect to land values, 65,000 minimum capacity with expansion possibility, I'm guessing the same sources who paid for the existing redevelopment. The land at Lansdowne Road wouldn't have been given away for nothing you know.

I'm quite comfortable questioning the logic of tearing down a stadium and putting a 400m new one in it's place with the exact same capacity. The capacity is inadequate and when it was reduced from 65 to 50 during the planning process they should have looked elsewhere.

The extra 15,000 (65 over 50) amounts to about 1m-2m per game for a sell-out. Care to take a stab at how much money that would generate for the IRFU, FAI and the State and economy in revenues over a 25 year period? I'm not going to but I'm sure it's ALOT.

There were loads of sites that could have been considered. What about all the land out in Clare Hall, Swords, Irish Glass site or the IRFU's own land out in Newlands Cross? Don't suggest there wasn't a bit of land anywhere close to the city that could have accomodated it, particularly with land deals for 50-90m an acre being struck for land near to Lansdowne Road, which has the added advantage of sitting on a DART line. Based on those deals what is the site worth? OR should I say, what WAS it worth?

16 acres by 50m = 800
16 acres by 90m = 1440

I'm sure that would have covered land AND a stadium on what would have been a greenfield site.

Bluetonic

The FAI could hardly get together their share for the current stadium, tell me how would they afford a stadium of increased size? They would stand to gain nothing from the sale of the Lansdowne Road site.

You can't say the land would have sold for anything like the figures you mention as the previous use of the land would figure in the future use of the land. If the IRFU had acquired pre planning approval, maybe you'd get those prices but thats all hypothetical.

It's also debatable where a 65,000 (to whatever your proposed expansion capacity is) stadium would get planning permission. An out of town location like Newlands or off the N32 wouldn't go down well with the planners for dispersal of the crowd post game, it would encourage travel by car. It's not just as simple as plonking a stadium down on some green field site.

If it was all as easy as you say wouldn't the IRFU have gone it alone? Sale of 1.5bn, 100% own stadium for 500m and 1bn in the bank? There would have been no question.

NewApproach

ALH-06 wrote: »

Ok is it actually 50,000 or 55,000? I've always heard the first figure whenever the new Lansdowne Road is mentioned....

I agree - it's definitely too small to be our national stadium. But it was a compromise that had to be made.

Who says Landsdowne Rd is our national stadium??

Sparky14

NewApproach wrote: »

Who says Landsdowne Rd is our national stadium??

The FAI & IRFU.

Orizio

Hogzy wrote: »

I think the GAA are still a bit caught up in the whole Irishness of Croke Park

:rolleyes:

If this was true, there wouldn't be any rugby/soccer matches on in Croker. Its clear the GAA is far more interested in making money then in any other supposed ideological considerations.

God only knows why anyone would prefer Lansdowne Road to one of the finest stadiums in Europe, but I assume it makes financial sense for the IRFU to move games out of Croker.

youcrazyjesus!

Bluetonic wrote: »

The FAI could hardly get together their share for the current stadium, tell me how would they afford a stadium of increased size? They would stand to gain nothing from the sale of the Lansdowne Road site.

You can't say the land would have sold for anything like the figures you mention as the previous use of the land would figure in the future use of the land. If the IRFU had acquired pre planning approval, maybe you'd get those prices but thats all hypothetical.

It's also debatable where a 65,000 (to whatever your proposed expansion capacity is) stadium would get planning permission. An out of town location like Newlands or off the N32 wouldn't go down well with the planners for dispersal of the crowd post game, it would encourage travel by car. It's not just as simple as plonking a stadium down on some green field site.

If it was all as easy as you say wouldn't the IRFU have gone it alone? Sale of 1.5bn, 100% own stadium for 500m and 1bn in the bank? There would have been no question.

Newlands would have been on the LUAS. N32 on the Dart. Both close the motorway with plenty of park and ride options it wouldn't have been a major issue.

A stadium with an extra 15,000 - 20,000 capacity would not have cost an amount hugely in excess of what's already being paid. Factor in future earnings from games too. It would make sense long term without a doubt.

The prices I've quoted relate to land which did not have planning permission for what the buyers intended to build on it so it stands to reason Lansdowne Road's 16.5 acres could have been sold for something in the same ballpark.

Whatever the case, and I'll repeat, I don't think you need to be a logistician or urban planner to see a problem with the logic of tearing down a stadium in order to build one with an identical capacity in it's place (granted the corporate side of things is more catered for in the new stadium) for 400 million euro. It's inadequate, that's simply a fact. We've had 2 games in 4 days which prove that and although it's now impossible to know, given the crazy money being thrown at sites in that area I believe they could easily have funded a proper stadium on a new site had they the necessary vision and will to do so, from the sale of the land at Lansdowne. The FAIs share of the new stadium cost could have been included in future leasing arrangements, or worked out between themselves whatever the financial sitation might have been.

youcrazyjesus!

Orizio wrote: »

:rolleyes:

If this was true, there wouldn't be any rugby/soccer matches on in Croker. Its clear the GAA is far more interested in making money then in any other supposed ideological considerations.

God only knows why anyone would prefer Lansdowne Road to one of the finest stadiums in Europe, but I assume it makes financial sense for the IRFU to move games out of Croker.

I think even with corporate clients and stadium sponsorship it would still make financial sense for them to use Croke Park but it will never happen, for a start they would be funding the GAA, a competitor. It's common sense, they've built their ground, for better or for worse, it should be used and promoted as much as possible.

Sparky14

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

I think even with corporate clients and stadium sponsorship it would still make financial sense for them to use Croke Park but it will never happen, for a start they would be funding the GAA, a competitor. It's common sense, they've built their ground, for better or for worse, it should be used and promoted as much as possible.

I agree, we've made our pathetic little ground and now we're gonna have to play in it.

youcrazyjesus!

Sparky14 wrote: »

I agree, we've made our pathetic little ground and now we're gonna have to play in it.

I wouldn't call it pathetic. Aesthetically, and with respect to facilities and location it's an excellent stadium but the capacity is a joke* and I think that's the problem people have with it. Particularly because it doesn't improve on the previous capacity, it shows a lack of ambition for the future imo.



*although corporate and premium seating will increase 10 fold I think?

Bluetonic

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Newlands would have been on the LUAS. N32 on the Dart. Both close the motorway with plenty of park and ride options it wouldn't have been a major issue.

LUAS is low capacity and both LUAS and DART on the main would be bringing people back into the city center, hardly ideal.

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Whatever the case, and I'll repeat, I don't think you need to be a logistician or urban planner to see a problem with the logic of tearing down a stadium in order to build one with an identical capacity in it's place (granted the corporate side of things is more catered for in the new stadium) for 400 million euro.

No need to mention it's now an all seater stadium whereas in the past over 50% of the stadium was stading. You'd think they were building like for like.

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

It's inadequate, that's simply a fact. We've had 2 games in 4 days which prove that

The attendance at last nights game was 44k (as announced at the game). Don't mind the 65k thats in match reports today, they are incorrect. Less than 50k attended the previous FAI game.

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

The FAIs share of the new stadium cost could have been included in future leasing arrangements, or worked out between themselves whatever the financial sitation might have been.

I'd say the FAI are more than happy the way it's worked out. 50k is about right for them plus they are no longer a tenant in the new Lansdowne.

I said it already but I'll mention it again, if it was as easy as your making out why do you think the IRFU didn't go it alone onto a green field site?

ironingbored

I presume Leinster will use the new Landsdowne for big games (e.g. Munster, Ulster, HC).

I think it was important to redevelop the Landsdowne site for reasons of tradition. Everybody in the world (esp. the rugby fraternity) knows about Landsdowne and its special place in sporting folklore. This is why the thought of calling it the Aviva stadium turns my stomach.

youcrazyjesus!

Bluetonic wrote: »

LUAS is low capacity and both LUAS and DART on the main would be bringing people back into the city center, hardly ideal.

I'm not going to engage in a debate really. I'm making a general point, not planning a new stadium. LUAS line is 5000 per hour or something, a metro spur could add another 10,000. I'm not sure where else you would want to bring people to after a game if not the city center. Some people are never happy, you suggest a slightly out of city site and they say it's too far away, you suggest a mode of transport that would deliver them to the city center and they moan about that too.

No need to mention it's now an all seater stadium whereas in the past over 50% of the stadium was stading. You'd think they were building like for like.

Nobody said it was. Obviously a new stadium is a new stadium. I'm just not sure it's worth spending 400m on it.

The attendance at last nights game was 44k (as announced at the game). Don't mind the 65k thats in match reports today.

Yeah, I'm sure they got it wrong by about 50%.

And at the weekend? 84,000? How many more people would have gone?

I'd say the FAI are more than happy the way it's worked out. 50k is about right for them plus they are no longer a tenant.

As I've said, new site, new arrangements. Citing existing arrangements and saying they would be in appropriate to a greenfield site stadium is simply stating the obvious and not really making any point at all.

I said it already but I'll mention it again, if it was as easy as your making out why do you think the IRFU didn't go it alone onto a green field site?

Fear of ****ing it up? Lack of ambition? Playing it safe?

Sparky14

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

I wouldn't call it pathetic. Aesthetically, and with respect to facilities and location it's an excellent stadium but the capacity is a joke* and I think that's the problem people have with it. Particularly because it doesn't improve on the previous capacity, it shows a lack of ambition for the future imo.



*although corporate and premium seating will increase 10 fold I think?

Ok well its a pathetic attempt at improving the existing Lansdowne Road. Couldn't really care less about facilities or corporate seating. In terms of atmosphere the 5,000 increase in capacity will not be enough to compensate for the loss of the Terraces.

Podge_irl

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Whatever the case, and I'll repeat, I don't think you need to be a logistician or urban planner to see a problem with the logic of tearing down a stadium in order to build one with an identical capacity in it's place (granted the corporate side of things is more catered for in the new stadium) for 400 million euro.

The main aim of the rebuild wasn't to increase capacity. The stadium had to be replaced - it was in bits. It looks a silly decision now, but there was no guarantee at the time that there would be enough demand for a larger stadium anyway.

deadhead13

If it will keep out some of the cretins booing at halftime, it will do fine.

Bluetonic

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

Yeah, I'm sure they got it wrong by about 50%.

I'm not making it up, I was there, I saw the attendance, I saw the empty seats, I heard the announcement of 44k.

It's really pointless trying to debate something if not going to take things at face value.

"The number of tickets sold is pretty close to 50,000, and we would expect the final figure to be in or around that," FAI head of communications Peter Sherrard said yesterday.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fai-expects-25000-empty-seats-for-world-cup-qualifier-1635174.html

A certain number of block bookers would have paid yet not attended, absorbing the cost to keep their block booking allocation.

youcrazyjesus!

Bluetonic wrote: »

I'm not making it up, I was there, I saw the attendance, I saw the empty seats, I heard the announcement of 44k.

It's really pointless trying to debate something if not going to take things at face value.



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fai-expects-25000-empty-seats-for-world-cup-qualifier-1635174.html

A certain number of block bookers would have paid yet not attended, absorbing the cost to keep their block booking allocation.

Fair enough but there were 60,000 at the previous friendly (yes, we know, a lot of Poles went to it).

I say it's too small and I think the vast majority of people agree.

Bluetonic

youcrazyjesus! wrote: »

I say it's too small and I think the vast majority of people agree.

Definetly too small for Rugby but probably the right size for soccer.

I'm still at a loss to understand why the IRFU ruled out a new location. I'm trying to look back over the years when the decision was made and there there seems to be a lot of political support and lobbying for funds to be made available for the redevelopment of the existing site. Maybe after the disappointments of Eircom Park and The Bertie Bowl government forces and the IRFU (and the FAI to a lesser extent) were left thinking they'd be left with nothing.

P_1

Sparky14 wrote: »

Ok well its a pathetic attempt at improving the existing Lansdowne Road. Couldn't really care less about facilities or corporate seating. In terms of atmosphere the 5,000 increase in capacity will not be enough to compensate for the loss of the Terraces.

AFAIK some of the newer stadia in Germany have the facility to convert entire stands from seats to terraces and vice verca in just one hour. Perhaps this may be worth investigating for the rugby matches in the new Lansdowne?

Stupido

Lads......


1) The stadium COULD have been 65,000 but for 2 reasons - political (Mary Harney) and Rugby (Lansdowne flat refused to lose their pitch). A scheme was developed for a stadium 90 degrees from the old one. Any capacity could have been atained. Prob was you would have lost the second pitch.

2) The new design DOES ALLOW for an extension of capacity. The upper tiers only run around 3 sides of the stadium. In effect the new lansdowne road is just like croker...3 sides of 4 tiers and a scutty little bit at one end with a score board

I think you will find that the IRFU own a few of the houses in Havelock Square...and O'Connell Gardens too.......:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: