Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe?

Dannyboy83

Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe, or just the most incompetent country in Western Europe?

thebman

Em ... ... yes??

Who knows? Who is qualified to judge that. Some hide it better than others and it blows up in the face of some after a while.

I think we aren't more corrupt than others but this is just our volcanic eruption of corruption at the moment and other nations will have theirs too I'm sure.

Doesn't mean we should not use this opportunity to clean our house and try to prevent corruption on this level again.

Dannyboy83

So other countries brush their mess under the carpet.
e.g Helmut Kohl

We on the other hand have a big expensive tribunal, but never legislate against it.

Are we doomed to repeat these failures forever?
Can we never learn from our mistakes?

It was only 1 generation ago that we had Charlie "tighten your belt" Haughey.

Dannyboy83

Also, I find it difficult to believe that Brian Lenihan would be able to keep his job if it were a different European country.


Regarding the Anglo Irish Enron style fraud, his "I didn't read it" comment would only be acceptable in this country.

What about his junior ministers or secretaries or civil servants?
Did they read it?
Anybody ever heard of a post-it?

nesf

I take it you don't follow Italian politics.

BennyLava

Ireland isn't incompetent, it just our current crop of gombeen men, sorry politicians that are, also all the idiots who voted for FF,

if we could round them all up and stick them in a reservation for the politically retarded world confidence in Ireland will be restored:)

seamus

What about Spain? If you think our economy is bad, then theirs must be in meltdown.

mike65

Hard to beat Belgium at times. Italy wrote the book.

Naz_st

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

...
Regarding the Anglo Irish Enron style fraud, his "I didn't read it" comment would only be acceptable in this country.

What about his junior ministers or secretaries or civil servants?
Did they read it?
Anybody ever heard of a post-it?

Great quote from Miriam Lord in the Irish Times today on Brian's laughable "didn't read that bit" explanation:

"In the case of the the Anglo seven billion, it appears that some stupid civil servant forgot to circle the relevant passage with the big red crayon, and so, senior counsel Lenihan never read it"

ChocolateSauce

Not since Bulgaria and Romania joined.

ChocolateSauce

BennyLava wrote: »

Ireland isn't incompetent, it just our current crop of gombeen men, sorry politicians that are, also all the idiots who voted for FF,

if we could round them all up and stick them in a reservation for the politically retarded world confidence in Ireland will be restored:)

The idiots who voted FF? You mean the other 3/5th of the population? And our current crop? As opposed to what, the previous generations who ran the country so smoothly?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I think Italy is more corrupt than incompetant. Politically speaking, though, yes, I belive it is. While all other countires are trying to stimulate spending, Ireland appears to be trying to restrict it.

Belgium would run close, though.

nesf

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

While all other countires are trying to stimulate spending, Ireland appears to be trying to restrict it.

Other countries aren't faced with a budget deficit of one third of total Government spending though which you have to bear in mind.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

nesf wrote: »

Other countries aren't faced with a budget deficit of one third of total Government spending though which you have to bear in mind.

True, but one also has to bear in mind how this is possible, especially considering the boom we've had for the last ten years.

nesf

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

True, but one also has to bear in mind how this is possible, especially considering the boom we've had for the last ten years.

That's a separate issue (though a very important one). We are where we are and we need to get ourselves out of this mess. It's utterly pointless refusing to cut spending when we need to simply because we don't think it's fair.

Ironbars

I noticed a lot of threads relating to the incompetance of the government and I wholehearthedly agree with the sentiment but I cannot see any of the other parties doing a better job.

Its the foundations of government that are really at fault.Am I wrong in thinking that even if a government minister is incompetent a good civil service would have stopped the rot we are now forced to smell every day? Or should the buck stop with the politicians?
Just a thought, might be way of the mark.

thebman

Ironbars wrote: »

I noticed a lot of threads relating to the incompetance of the government and I wholehearthedly agree with the sentiment but I cannot see any of the other parties doing a better job.

Ther other parties aren't calling the shots. FF are in charge and we expect them to do the right thing for the country.

It doesn't look like they have been.

nesf

thebman wrote: »

It doesn't look like they have been.

Bluntly, there was enormous public pressure on FF from unions, interest groups, the media and people on the street to spend the excess tax revenues that they were getting in the good times. If people want to blame someone they can start there as far as I'm concerned. People wanted to have their cake and eat it, i.e. low taxes and high spending. Now it's come back to bite them and they're blaming the crowd they voted in to preserve the status quo, and no the main Opposition parties were not offering anything different.

One thing I'm sick of at the moment is how everyone wants to lump responsibility for this onto the politicians, the bankers et al. If you look back at public opinion over the boom years you will not find much that spoke of fiscal restraint or the need to limit spending and use the revenue to build up reserves to get us through the next downturn. As far as I'm concerned we all (and I include myself in this) did not do enough to encourage reasonable spending during the boom years.

gearoidc

As far as I'm concerned we all (and I include myself in this) did not do enough to encourage reasonable spending during the boom years.

These people are paid their enormous salaries to do their job i.e. run the country and spend the people's money sensibly and prudently while we run around and do our jobs in order to pay for the the whole thing.
They have made a complete tits of their side of it.
But you want to blame Joe Public?

Sorry, but if you're going to pocket €300k a year, you need to start learning about accountability.


On second thoughts..........
Accountability??? who am I kidding....

gearoidc

People wanted to have their cake and eat it

Yeah, that's when you need leadership and the moral fortitude to act in the national interest as opposed to what Bertie and Co. did which was to buy the next election irrespective of the consequences.

nesf

gearoidc wrote: »

Yeah, that's when you need leadership and the moral fortitude to act in the national interest as opposed to what Bertie and Co. did which was to buy the next election irrespective of the consequences.

As long as the people are happy to be bought then leadership isn't going to be a factor of Government during the good times.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

Bluntly, there was enormous public pressure on FF from unions, interest groups, the media and people on the street to spend the excess tax revenues that they were getting in the good times. If people want to blame someone they can start there as far as I'm concerned. People wanted to have their cake and eat it, i.e. low taxes and high spending. Now it's come back to bite them and they're blaming the crowd they voted in to preserve the status quo, and no the main Opposition parties were not offering anything different.

One thing I'm sick of at the moment is how everyone wants to lump responsibility for this onto the politicians, the bankers et al. If you look back at public opinion over the boom years you will not find much that spoke of fiscal restraint or the need to limit spending and use the revenue to build up reserves to get us through the next downturn. As far as I'm concerned we all (and I include myself in this) did not do enough to encourage reasonable spending during the boom years.

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.

I was working my ass off for the last 5 years, couldn't afford to buy a house, didn't drink with friends or doing anything excessive apart from go to the gym a lot.

The only thing I ever wanted the government to do was to build a good broadband infrastructure and they couldn't even do that!!

Now that all that money has been squandered, where are we?

Poor roads, poor rail, poor infrastructure, 2nd world IT infrastructure, 3rd world Health services etc. etc. etc.

Where exactly did the money go?
In the Government gulfstream fuel tank?????

_Nuno_

nesf wrote: »

I take it you don't follow Italian politics.

lol

Or Portuguese.

Off topic, but I'll tell you a funny story, which just recently happened in Portugal.

The equivalent of a city mayor in Portugal was last year about to be charged with corruption. She was tipped and she fled to Brazil. She stayed there for a few months, with a detention warrant pending on her in Portugal. Brazil did not extradite her, because she's half Brazilian, and the constitution does not allow that.

While she was there, she continued to receive her mayor salary, because the law says she should until convicted, regardless of she being on the run from justice. She also put all her expenses in Brazil on the council, and they paid for it.

Almost a year later, she returned, and stood trial. Surely this was after she was guaranteed she would noy go to jail. The council paid all her expenses with lawyers. She was convicted of corruption, and got 3 years suspended sentence.

Ireland is not that bad.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Now that all that money has been squandered, where are we?

Poor roads, poor rail, poor infrastructure, 2nd world IT infrastructure, 3rd world Health services etc. etc. etc.

Where exactly did the money go?
In the Government gulfstream fuel tank?????

The money was ploughed into roads, the health services and other projects that the people demanded. Look at the budgets for the past decade and the changing totals for the departments. The money was going in there all right.

We've also not got a 2nd World IT infrastructure, look at broadband penetration in Russia if you want to see what a 2nd world IT infrastructure actually looks like and if you think we've a 3rd World Health service then you know nothing of the misery in the 3rd World in this context. Not that I actually like the state of either in our country at the moment or anything.

bonkey

gearoidc wrote: »

Yeah, that's when you need leadership and the moral fortitude to act in the national interest as opposed to what Bertie and Co. did which was to buy the next election irrespective of the consequences.

Doesn't this argument implicitly suggest that had they not bought the election, but rather acted in the national interest, they'd have been voted out?

This is a key problem...always has been. In good times, if the government suggest tightening the belt and preparing for the inevitable bad times ahead, people find someone who will offer them a better deal....someone who's willing - as you put it - to "buy the next election irrespective of the consequences".

Until the public stop buying, why should politicians stop selling? Someone else will sell to them...so the public lose either which way. Better to be the seller, and get the power, then the selfless, out-of-power Joe while someone else runs the country into the ground.

Sure...they'll get the blame when it all goes south. Then someone else might get into power while things are crap, and once they're good again.....we're back to square one. We'll vote for whoever buys the election the best, rather than voting for who offers the country a path thats less prosperous for the individual in the short run, but also more stable.

Hence, we end up with the situation where they're all as bad as each other - the reason often given for voting for the usual suspects. At least its the devil we know, right?

But we're not to blame. At all.

bonkey

gearoidc wrote: »

These people are paid their enormous salaries to do their job i.e. run the country and spend the people's money sensibly and prudently while we run around and do our jobs in order to pay for the the whole thing.
They have made a complete tits of their side of it.
But you want to blame Joe Public?

Maybe I misread nesf's comment, but when he said "we all are to blame", I took it to mean that we all are to blame...Joe Public and these enormously paid people.

yoshytoshy

Ireland's far from the most incomptetent country ,most of our current politicians were around in the troubles of northern ireland.
So they have that history in them along with dealing with the economy etc.
Personally speaking ,I can't see any big changes as long as any of the old crew are around.

BroomBurner

Dunno if Ireland is THE most incompetent. Maybe sly. The UK banks were getting up to all sorts of slyness also.

nesf

bonkey wrote: »

Maybe I misread nesf's comment, but when he said "we all are to blame", I took it to mean that we all are to blame...Joe Public and these enormously paid people.

Yes, and it should not be read that I think we all share the blame equally, only that we are reaping what we sowed during the boom years.

ascanbe

Action is needed NOW or we are utterly, utterly screwed. Absolute clarity is needed and it is clear that this government, for unknown reasons, will not deliver that. I'm not sure a lot of people grasp what an incredibly dire situation we are in.

Fishtits

Trouble is folks...

The electorate puts these guys where they are because they got something for nothing.

The electorate bought into the big bubble, and its largesse.

The bubble burst... the electorate wants to blame anyone except themselves for their current situation.

If the electorate had been prudent in the first place, we wouldn't have the mess we face now.

Man up time.

PS had a customer today relate a tale where a 7 month qualified Electrician quoted for a job, punter expressed suprise at the cost, Electrician responded that "he wouldn't get out of bed for less than 1,100 a week"

Same guy has been spotted wandering around the town with his hands in his pockets...

Greedy buggers need a dose of reality IMHO, then we can join the European economy. Same goes for all sectors.

hedgeh0g

nesf wrote: »

The money was ploughed into roads, the health services and other projects that the people demanded. Look at the budgets for the past decade and the changing totals for the departments. The money was going in there all right.

We've also not got a 2nd World IT infrastructure, look at broadband penetration in Russia if you want to see what a 2nd world IT infrastructure actually looks like and if you think we've a 3rd World Health service then you know nothing of the misery in the 3rd World in this context. Not that I actually like the state of either in our country at the moment or anything.

Roads - how much per mile were we paying compared to other countries?
Ive heard we were being way overcharged.

gearoidc

Sure...they'll get the blame when it all goes south. Then someone else might get into power while things are crap, and once they're good again.....we're back to square one. We'll vote for whoever buys the election the best, rather than voting for who offers the country a path thats less prosperous for the individual in the short run, but also more stable.

Hence, we end up with the situation where they're all as bad as each other - the reason often given for voting for the usual suspects. At least its the devil we know, right?

But we're not to blame. At all.

Can't say I disagree with any of that.
Politics, unfortunately, is what it is and for my way of thinking there is nothing more shifty and disingenuous - not to mention cunning and devious;) -than the true political animal.

And we're now looking to these people to lead us out of Egypt.
May God have mercy on us.

nesf

hedgeh0g wrote: »

Roads - how much per mile were we paying compared to other countries?
Ive heard we were being way overcharged.

Couldn't give you the figure but it was most certainly very high. Though, to be fair the cost of road construction rose all over Europe I think (I could be wrong).

gearoidc

The bubble burst... the electorate wants to blame anyone except themselves for their current situation

I am paying the price and I blame myself for my poor choices..

I blame the government and banks for the ruinous decisions they made.
I want them to pay the price too.
Simple enough, innit?

nesf

gearoidc wrote: »

I am paying the price and I blame myself for my poor choices..

I blame the government and banks for the ruinous decisions they made.
I want them to pay the price too.
Simple enough, innit?

You're unusual from the looks of things.

gurramok

nesf wrote: »

One thing I'm sick of at the moment is how everyone wants to lump responsibility for this onto the politicians, the bankers et al. If you look back at public opinion over the boom years you will not find much that spoke of fiscal restraint or the need to limit spending and use the revenue to build up reserves to get us through the next downturn. As far as I'm concerned we all (and I include myself in this) did not do enough to encourage reasonable spending during the boom years.

Yes, and it should not be read that I think we all share the blame equally, only that we are reaping what we sowed during the boom years.

Problem is that the the ordinary Joe and Jane do not have the professional expertise to know how the economy and financial matters work.

They expect our leaders, our bankers, people who are more educated than us to know better than to lead us into a financial hole. Thats why there is anger. Ordinary Joe and Jane were to blame too for human greed, but they have an excuse called lack of education on financial matters, our leaders or professional banking class didn't show that.

nesf

gurramok wrote: »

Problem is that the the ordinary Joe and Jane do not have the professional expertise to know how the economy and financial matters work.

They expect our leaders, our bankers, people who are more educated than us to know better than to lead us into a financial hole. Thats why there is anger. Ordinary Joe and Jane were to blame too for human greed, but they have an excuse called lack of education on financial matters, our leaders or professional banking class didn't show that.

Ignorance is no excuse in my opinion.

gurramok

nesf wrote: »

Ignorance is no excuse in my opinion.

I agree with this for the individual(Joe&Jane) as per my post.

This is not an excuse for those who run the banks as you know, they are supposed to be qualified in their fields but have woefully failed.

nesf

gurramok wrote: »

This is not an excuse for those who run the banks as you know, they are supposed to be qualified in their fields but have woefully failed.

I agree.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Joey the lips

No its just we have the most incomp goverment who got into power by the failure of the vast numbers on incomp people to vote

Raiser

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe, or just the most incompetent country in Western Europe?

No I think Bolivia is probably a little worse - Doh!!! Fcuking Irish educational system

ejmaztec

If the government were anywhere near competent, the rest of the world would have been so impressed after the latest bank bail-out, that AIB and BOI's shares would have at least doubled their value yesterday.

Needless to say, the share values dropped even lower than their value the day before.

The only upside will be that Ireland will soon have a minimal carbon footprint. Perhaps the Greens have more influence than we thought.

Paddy Samurai

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe?

No ,apparently Albania is worse than us!.:cool:

anonymous_joe

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is Ireland the most incompetent country in all of Europe, or just the most incompetent country in Western Europe?

What a ludicrous question.

I appreciate stength of feeling at the moment, but come on.

First things first, how do we judge this?

Secondly - Spain's economy is worse than ours, Italy is a country that's been a corrupt and incompetent joke since it's formation, Germany's got a history of corruption etc swept under the carpet, and has plenty of social problems that have long been ignored.

Our government is not doing well but they're the government we the people voted in (well I didn't, I voted for someone else). Just because you're familiar with our government don't assume they're the worst. Everyone has problems, and they've all been exacerbated by the financial crisis.

I'll ask another question - did you give a fúck before the economic slowdown?

petergdub

> Also, I find it difficult to believe that Brian Lenihan would be able to keep his job if it were a different European country.

Erm, it was a 720 page document.
Apparently the 5th draft of said document.
A detail on one page of it and apparently it required detailed explanation by an expert.

Whatever about an official being to blame are you seriously blaming Lenihan for missing that ?

ejmaztec

petergdub wrote: »

> Also, I find it difficult to believe that Brian Lenihan would be able to keep his job if it were a different European country.

Erm, it was a 720 page document.
Apparently the 5th draft of said document.
A detail on one page of it and apparently it required detailed explanation by an expert.

Whatever about an official being to blame are you seriously blaming Lenihan for missing that ?

I would expect a Minister for Finance to be the expert.

nesf

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would expect a Minister for Finance to be the expert.

You expect the people to be able to elect even one competent expert in financial matters to what will be the ruling party?


Edit:

Bluntly we have a Department of Finance so they can take out the big colouring book and a bunch of crayons and explain to whatever gombeen they get stuck with what the situation is. If it is true that he didn't read this and that it wasn't brought to his attention then the buck stops with the Department to be honest. This should have been brought to his attention by his staff.

ejmaztec

nesf wrote: »

You expect the people to be able to elect even one competent expert in financial matters to what will be the ruling party?

Unfortunately no.

It seems that the voters believe that those elected know everything that there is to know - about anything.

Has any candidate ever said "vote for me, I'm an economist!"?


.....oh and I see that AIB's shares have now dropped to 78c.

anonymous_joe

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would expect a Minister for Finance to be the expert.

Ehm...

Why?

Politicians by and large are just that politicians. That's their career, and often enough has been for most of their career. Ergo, they cannot be an expert in such a field.

nesf wrote: »

You expect the people to be able to elect even one competent expert in financial matters to what will be the ruling party?


Edit:

Bluntly we have a Department of Finance so they can take out the big colouring book and a bunch of crayons and explain to whatever gombeen they get stuck with what the situation is. If it is true that he didn't read this and that it wasn't brought to his attention then the buck stops with the Department to be honest. This should have been brought to his attention by his staff.

The entire point of civil servants is that they bring these things to people's attention. End of story.

I've no idea the exact details of this crisis, but if I was given a 720 page book to read, and missed a detail on one page, I wouldn't be too surprised, given the human capacity for mistakes.

Our civil service has dropped the ball here.