Applying to PPC1 2009

kronsington

anyone started applying yet? the law soc have said they're received a few applications already., not much though. it's a long enough process, want to get it rolling in the next few weeks anway

orangecake

Could somebody explain the application process for the PPC1 to me? When is the latest that I could apply? If I managed to get an apprenticeship at this stage would I have time to apply for this years intake? I can't find many details on the Law Society website. Thanks for the help...

dats_right

Absolutely loads of time to apply. More info on process

Aprilsunshine

Your firm sends you everything you need and you get your docs sorted and give it back to them.

Some firms are doing it now but there is lots of time.

orangecake

Thanks for getting back to me. I've just read in a couple of threads about the difficulties in getting a place and I was starting to wonder if it was even worth continuing the search for a training contract or was it too late. Thanks again.

dats_right

There hasn't been any problems whatsoever with getting a place on the PPCI with the Law Society for some years now. Where the major problem lies is with actually getting an apprenticeship in the first place, which as you know is a pre-requisite for attendance on PPCI.

orangecake

I must have been misinterpreting what I was reading. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

EC1000

Aprilsunshine wrote: »

Your firm sends you everything you need and you get your docs sorted and give it back to them.

Really??!!! Maybe your one does!

dats_right

EC1000 wrote: »

Really??!!! Maybe your one does!

Yeah, I had to sort all that stuff myself too.

kronsington

same here. pain in the asre getting it all together.

im sending my forms off next week once i (finally) get my character references.
so, has anyone else applied or what? are people expecting large drop in numbers attending the course this year? will fees still be same?

opinions?

dats_right

kronsington wrote: »

are people expecting large drop in numbers attending the course this year?

Numbers fell by 11% on the current 2008 PPCI course from the highest ever on record of the 2007 PPCI, so I think it an absolute certainty that numbers will fall further and I would be amazed if the fall wasn't in the double digit percentages.

kronsington wrote: »

will fees still be same?

No, the fees increase every January and for PPCI 2009 are set at €8,500.

June2008

I just got the checklist from my firm there...theres so much!

where do people get their references from?

kronsington

June2008 wrote: »

I just got the checklist from my firm there...theres so much!

where do people get their references from?

get your references from someone who knows you (not a relative), saying how and for how long they've known and you are a person of good character and that you are not a complete prat.


as regards school results, are leaving cert sufficent or you seriosuly have to throw in junior cert etc?

shansey

anyone still waiting to apply..i've been waiting on the law soc to update the ppc1 pack..they say it will be july before i get it..is that really late..is there a chance i'll have to wait and take a year out to go travelling??? ahh....

legal eagle 1

Can anyone advise on how long us people who are still looking for an apprenticeship have to obtain one, if we want to make it into the PPC1 course in September? Or is it already too late for us.

Arsenal1986

Its the lastw eek in Augusta s far as i know, they are apparently fairly flexible about the deadline these days

legal eagle 1

So does that mean you have to have all your information sent to Blackhall Place by that time or is it still possible to get in if you secure an apprenticeship in the final week in August??
I've emailed and rang the law society few times but no one seems to be able to answer me :rolleyes:

cnlbel

does anyone know when the application packs are available?

dats_right

I've heard from a reliable source that the numbers applying for PPCI have virtually collapsed. Therefore the Law Soc will be so desperate for numbers or more specifically there hefty fees, will thus probably be still accepting applications next Christmas!!

shansey

yea...i rang back when the results came out...they said to call back in july.... apparently theres quite a bit involved in gettin everything ready...

enry

The closing date is around the end of august. You might also note that in the middle of this month there were only 140 people signed up compare that with the 777 people qualifying last year.

Could someone who’s parents or relative are not working in a law firm or is not signed up with one of the big firms, please explain to me how they got a training contract

shaneybaby

In reply to enry i work for a small (less than 10 solicitors) firm and have no relatives in the legal game (other than the gardai). I got my apprenticeship (even though i still have tort FE1 left to do) through my old job. Basically the firm i am with now are the solicitors for the company i worked at in my previous life. I got interested in a few contractual disputes we were having and between the jigs and the reels had a chat with the senior partner one day we were working explaining my interest in law. They took me on with no fe1's done and no law degree but with a relatively substantial knowledge of the area we work in. It IS all about personal contact if you don't have family or it's not a big firm. Sending generic CV's out to a thousand firms isn't a very successful route i'd imagine (maybe i'm wrong)

By the way as a matter of interest ENry how do you know how many people have signed up for the PPC1 course?

enry

shaneybaby wrote: »

In reply to enry i work for a small (less than 10 solicitors) firm and have no relatives in the legal game (other than the gardai). I got my apprenticeship (even though i still have tort FE1 left to do) through my old job. Basically the firm i am with now are the solicitors for the company i worked at in my previous life. I got interested in a few contractual disputes we were having and between the jigs and the reels had a chat with the senior partner one day we were working explaining my interest in law. They took me on with no fe1's done and no law degree but with a relatively substantial knowledge of the area we work in. It IS all about personal contact if you don't have family or it's not a big firm. Sending generic CV's out to a thousand firms isn't a very successful route i'd imagine (maybe i'm wrong)

By the way as a matter of interest ENry how do you know how many people have signed up for the PPC1 course?

I attended a course in the Law society on obtaining your training contract and they supplied everyone with statistics.

I've got all my FE-1s I have a degree in Law. I've even handled personal injury claims for an insurance company and worked in finance over the last number of years however it seems to account for f all.

Your right for the most part contacts are the way forward. However at present I’m working in a law firm for free simply to gain experience and make a few contacts. Still I know it’s not going to do me any good. The usual response I’ve been getting is I'd love to do something for you but I've just let people go and as a repercussion I'm not in a position to bring anyone in.

shaneybaby

Yeah its pretty obvious things are not good out there at the moment but as a calibre of canidate you must realise you're pretty much top of the pile!! I had the choice at the time of delaying going to the firm and doing my FE1's full time or go straight from one job into the other and do the study at night. It's taken a little bit longer than i expected as i could only do exams once a year really but i'm very very lucky the way things worked out. Office experience(CV) decent results(College) and good proven work ethic(personal contact or reputation) and you will get something, but it does sound like this year is a write off for a lot of people.

The backlog as regards Apprenticeships next year will be just as bad i'd imagine (not being a doomsayer) so it's the stuff you cram in between now and then will be key. A few of my friends, qualified solicitors, that i was in college with that lent me their law books when i started the FE1's have now been left go and are asking me if there are any positions here. Madness.

shansey

Could someone who’s parents or relative are not working in a law firm or is not signed up with one of the big firms, please explain to me how they got a training contract

well i had/have no connections..i started by e mail...sent out bout 300 individuals...got one call back...but still no luck..then printed out c.v's and started going door to door in different towns/cities and asked to speak to the principal in each firm...no matter what the secretary says dont leave it with them..that seemed to work with me..took a while and very dis-heatening at times but it worked

cnlbel

just got application pack today and a bit confused about proving that you're exempt from the preliminary exam-is that proved by evidence of your degree?

r14

cnlbel wrote: »

just got application pack today and a bit confused about proving that you're exempt from the preliminary exam-is that proved by evidence of your degree?

That's the way I took it when I applied. Not very easy to understand the instructions in the pack.

enry

does anyone know the numbers currently signed up for ppc1.

kronsington

enry wrote: »

does anyone know the numbers currently signed up for ppc1.

i heard the numbers are under 100 this year. i got my indentures in the post and have been assigned to the dublin course, where everybody seems to be placed.

next, i have to figure out a way of getting the fees reduced- anyone have any advice on this?

enry

kronsington wrote: »

i heard the numbers are under 100 this year. i got my indentures in the post and have been assigned to the dublin course, where everybody seems to be placed.

next, i have to figure out a way of getting the fees reduced- anyone have any advice on this?

Well done on getting a training contract its really good going considering the current market conditions. the fees are very high alright dont know how you would get them reduced, however, I'm sure if you got on to the law society they would try to come to some arrangement with you.

I'm still worrying about getting a contract. Wish I was in your position and had to worry about the fees

dats_right

I understand that as of a couple of weeks ago there was aproximately 140'ish signed up for PPCI.

tombren

kronsington wrote: »

i heard the numbers are under 100 this year. i got my indentures in the post and have been assigned to the dublin course, where everybody seems to be placed.

next, i have to figure out a way of getting the fees reduced- anyone have any advice on this?

dont think you'll be getting them 'reduced'. i was on ppc1 last year and rumour was that they need 500 ppc1ers to break even!!! so cant seem them reducing the figures at all!
That said, apply to your local authourity for a grant. They're pretty easy to get and pay a good bit back. My firm got about 4000 of the 8000 back from the county council and i got my maintainance grant of 75% which works out about €800 three times a year. A 100% grant will have you up over €1000.00 3 times a year, so all that will bring you pretty close to your fees being covered.

enry

dats_right wrote: »

I understand that as of a couple of weeks ago there was aproximately 140'ish signed up for PPCI.

dats_right there was about 140'ish but how many are there now

shansey

does anyoknow anything about the bursary thing...or the access programme wherby you would be exempt from fees altogether??...

enry

shansey wrote: »

does anyoknow anything about the bursary thing...or the access programme wherby you would be exempt from fees altogether??...

they have a web site it will give you all the details. sorry dont know what the address is. you need to be training in dublin to get it, I think

dreamer2009

Hey,

I got confirmation last week from a firm, where i did experience in the past 2 years, that they are going to take me on this year for my apprent. Literally I got the form of ppc1 today in the post. The closing date seems to be the end of august but it then goes on about how my place will only be confirmed after the deed of indentures is registered etc. This is six weeks after a second letter comes back to the solicitors of consent or something. The explanation seems very confusing. However, my interpretation seems that it means I can't go this Sept? As the red tape return dates will bring me into october even if i post the form next week. I rang the law society but no-one got back to me today. Any help as to why the application date is so late and if it really rules out a september start would be great?

P.S. did anyone hear a rumour that the Cork part of the course would not run this year due to the costs associated with it and the lack of applicants?

enry

dreamer2009 wrote: »

Hey,

I got confirmation last week from a firm, where i did experience in the past 2 years, that they are going to take me on this year for my apprent. Literally I got the form of ppc1 today in the post. The closing date seems to be the end of august but it then goes on about how my place will only be confirmed after the deed of indentures is registered etc. This is six weeks after a second letter comes back to the solicitors of consent or something. The explanation seems very confusing. However, my interpretation seems that it means I can't go this Sept? As the red tape return dates will bring me into october even if i post the form next week. I rang the law society but no-one got back to me today. Any help as to why the application date is so late and if it really rules out a september start would be great?

P.S. did anyone hear a rumour that the Cork part of the course would not run this year due to the costs associated with it and the lack of applicants?

I was talking to the law society the other day there will be no problem getting in this year as long as you have your forms sent in on time. I do know whats happening with the course in cork.

Have to say well done on getting a contract in the current clement it’s a real achievement.

enry

this is interesting

http://www.lawsociety.ie/displayCDAContent.aspx?groupID=149&headerID=14339&code=latest_news

cnlbel

jsut filling in the indenture-form 4 part 3-very confused. is the second part referring to where you have been working in the firm before ppc1?

kronsington

is the cork school definately closed this year ?

dreamer2009

Thanks a million for taking the time to reply. Its a relief knowning I can go in september, especially after finally getting a contract. Will be interesting to see what happens with the cork course now!

kronsington

i just found out the school is open this year, they gave me the option of either dub or cork when i called them

thoughts on which would be better? fees are the same, im not really familiar with cork at all- roughly 200 odd in dub this year, half that number in cork.


not hopeful with this grant issue at all either

cnlbel

did they tell you that dub would be around 200?

are you referring to county council grant?

kronsington

yeah, the person there said they are expecxting around 200/220 in dublin this year and under 100 in cork


city council grant is what im looking at, never applied for one before so, its worth a shot at least though

tombren

kronsington wrote: »

yeah, the person there said they are expecxting around 200/220 in dublin this year and under 100 in cork


city council grant is what im looking at, never applied for one before so, its worth a shot at least though

defo apply for the grant. they're actually pretty easy to get, i got one last year and i was earning a decent wage at the time and for the previous year. all my mates that applied for them got them. we were all living away from our parents etc. if you're living at home it might be abit more tricky and the paper work is defo more difficult and time consuming to fill out.

Derek_N

Anyone know if firms are actually allowed to take on an apprentice and not pay him/her? I think this may be the only way to go in my case.

tombren

Derek_N wrote: »

Anyone know if firms are actually allowed to take on an apprentice and not pay him/her? I think this may be the only way to go in my case.

strictly speaking and under law society rules, it depends on whether you've been working in the office before hand. if you havent they dont have to pay you while on ppc1, if you have, they're meant to.
but in reality and especially now, it's very common not to be paid as a trainee especially if you're in a small firm and the law society wont do anything to enforce these rules so firms can get away with not paying you. traineeships are so hard to come by, many people are willing to be apprenticed without wage

dats_right

Derek_N wrote: »

Anyone know if firms are actually allowed to take on an apprentice and not pay him/her? I think this may be the only way to go in my case.

No is the answer, it is very clearly a breach of the covenants of the Deed of Indentures for a training solicitor/firm not to pay a trainee solicitor. Even if you could find a solicitor willing to engage in such an arrangement, you really need to consider is it really in your interests? It is very unlikely that you will receive the standard of training required to become a useful and employable member of the profession from an individual who is willing to prey on the desperate in this way.

enry

dats_right wrote: »

No is the answer, it is very clearly a breach of the covenants of the Deed of Indentures for a training solicitor/firm not to pay a trainee solicitor. Even if you could find a solicitor willing to engage in such an arrangement, you really need to consider is it really in your interests? It is very unlikely that you will receive the standard of training required to become a useful and employable member of the profession from an individual who is willing to prey on the desperate in this way.

what about promissory estoppel?

dats_right

enry wrote: »

what about promissory estoppel?

1. It is an equitable doctrine, as with all such doctrines it is discretionary. "One who comes into equity must come with clean hands" employing slave labour is not exactly coming to equity with clean hands!

2. Apart from contractual principles, it is a criminal offence to pay below the statutory minimum wage.

3. It is also a statutory requirement to serve a 'bona fide' apprenticehsip pursuant to section 48 of the Solicitors (Amendment) Act 1994. Unpaid apprenticeships and deliberately in breach of this section run the serious risk of non compliance with this section.

4. Indentures are legally binding and breach thereof could, inter alia, potentially constitute professional misconduct and maybe warrant possible sanction.

enry

dats_right wrote: »

1. It is an equitable doctrine, as with all such doctrines it is discretionary. "One who comes into equity must come with clean hands" employing slave labour is not exactly coming to equity with clean hands!

2. Apart from contractual principles, it is a criminal offence to pay below the statutory minimum wage.

3. It is also a statutory requirement to serve a 'bona fide' apprenticehsip pursuant to section 48 of the Solicitors (Amendment) Act 1994. Unpaid apprenticeships and deliberately in breach of this section run the serious risk of non compliance with this section.

4. Indentures are legally binding and breach thereof could, inter alia, potentially constitute professional misconduct and maybe warrant possible sanction.

the doctrine is indeed an equitable one.

please note i've had a number of drinks

but say for example i said to a solicitor will you take me on as a trainee and he said sorry i cant because i dont have the money and i said thats ok i understand the current economic situti€on. will you take me on for free. i cant then try and have my strict legal rights enforced.

the law society i'm sure could follow up on him but i couldnt and there not going to do that. so i say there is no big sh1t if they dont pay you.