the lisbon treaty- informed opinion

Ostrom

Voting yes, but I can assure you it has as little to do with your post as it does with your antics on the NUIM forum

Which I am taking as a reflection on your reasoning and motivation

RaverRo808

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Conspiracy theory based on nothing

No it doesn't


That was decided under nice and commissioners don't represent their countries, they just happen to be from certain countries. They look after eu interests


The irish government has nothing to do with the treaty. Voting yes is not doing them a favour, it's doing yourself a favour

As you said, most people wouldn't have a clue and i'm afraid you're one of those people. It's not your fault though, you just believed the lies that you were fed through the campaign

No its actually becuase Im a republican and very concerned about my countries best interest,particulary in regards its sovreignty and its most vunrables welfare,this 'treaty' is not in this countries best interest and was created by people whose main agenda is power and fiancial gain,you say it doest copperfasten the EU as a superstate,doesnt cut down othat it doesnt affect our neutralist and that it isnt about the Irish government,I say what aload of b*llox,this treaty would mean that soldiers in the defence forces could possibly be drafted to trouble spots as part of an EU directive to make all EU countries made accountable for 'peacekeeping' duties,all thats in it for us in afew million again to do up the roads,no thanks,we should hang on to our dignity

Mrmoe

I voted No, but was thinking of voting Yes but now I will vote No just to piss off the Yes side, ain't democracy a b1tch:D

NADA

I think voting yes is the way to go. For starters Fine Gael and Fianna Fail want us both to vote yes and they hate each other. I see this common interest as good for us. Not only that but most other parties want us to sign it too. I really do believe these people have our best interest at heart. Not only that but every other country thinks its the way to go. Do you really think Germany, France, The Netherlands, Belgium Spain etc. etc . would do something bad for Europe. Not to mention the fact that most of the No campaigners are Nutters like Sinn Fein and Libertas , and these people are giving out false information. End even if you don't understand the treaty look at other policies of Sinn Fein. Would you agree with them on anything else, no you wouldn't you still agree with your own party be it Fianna Fail, Gael etc... In a word you'd be mad to vote no! People say ah I didn't understand the treaty I didn't understand the treaty blah blah blah well go and ****ing read it and do your country a favour!!! You'd do it more of a favour if you read the treaty. In my opinion not knowing what the treaty was about is a poor excuse for voting no. You should have just read it!

twinytwo

NADA wrote: »

I think voting yes is the way to go. For starters Fine Gael and Fianna Fail want us both to vote yes and they hate each other. I see this common interest as good for us. Not only that but most other parties want us to sign it too. I really do believe these people have our best interest at heart. Not only that but every other country thinks its the way to go. Do you really think Germany, France, The Netherlands, Belgium Spain etc. etc . would do something bad for Europe. Not to mention the fact that most of the No campaigners are Nutters like Sinn Fein and Libertas , and these people are giving out false information. End even if you don't understand the treaty look at other policies of Sinn Fein. Would you agree with them on anything else, no you wouldn't you still agree with your own party be it Fianna Fail, Gael etc... In a word you'd be mad to vote no! People say ah I didn't understand the treaty I didn't understand the treaty blah blah blah well go and ****ing read it and do your country a favour!!! You'd do it more of a favour if you read the treaty. In my opinion not knowing what the treaty was about is a poor excuse for voting no. You should have just read it!

What countries??... only corrupt governments got to vote??.. when England cried out for a vote they wernt let vote. I dont know what fantasy world you are in.

twinytwo

anladmór wrote: »

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/flash/fl_245_en.pdf

22%- Because I do not know enough about the Treaty and would not
want to vote for something I am not familiar with

12%-To Protect Irish identity.....

there is more but contrary to popular opinion 1% only voted no to avoid influx of immigrants which some people seemed to suggest.

I think voting yes is for the benefit for Ireland and the EU as a whole.

What a crock of ****e

PeakOutput

twinytwo wrote: »

What a crock of ****e

why?

ShooterSF

Mark200 wrote: »

I voted yes. I have no doubt that if people actually knew what the treaty was about then it would have passed. Not saying that everyone who voted no didn't have a clue. But most didn't

twinytwo wrote: »

Its also fair to say that people who voted yes didnt have a clue either.. with responses like "the government wants us to"

Deleted User wrote: »

First reaction to a well written post. You pretty much showed the exact perosn who votes No.

Ignorant.

snyper wrote: »

Great post op.

i voted yes and will vote yes again.

if for no other reason than those liars and murdering bastards sinn fein oppose it.

*cough*

weeder

couldnt vote first time round, will vote no this time round as a matter of principal

Quazzie

See it is people with no clue and only principals that are going to make the difference betweem whats right and whats wrong

ShooterSF

NADA wrote: »

I think voting yes is the way to go. For starters Fine Gael and Fianna Fail want us both to vote yes and they hate each other. I see this common interest as good for us. Not only that but most other parties want us to sign it too. I really do believe these people have our best interest at heart. Not only that but every other country thinks its the way to go. Do you really think Germany, France, The Netherlands, Belgium Spain etc. etc . would do something bad for Europe.

*More coughing*

Wagon

Still undecided. Although i might not be in the country the next time a voting date is decided.

Biggins

GaNjaHaN wrote: »

A lot of people voted no because they were afraid of Ireland losing its ability to rule itself.

Bearing in mind, the inept corrupt gobsh1tes that seem to be making their way to power in this country, Is giving more power to Europe really a bad thing?

As hard as it is to remove the useless gobschites from power here, can you imagine the serious uphill task it will be to be rid of the vermin that will infest a faceless bureaucratic building buried somewhere in Europe!

Originally Posted by NADA
I think voting yes is the way to go. For starters Fine Gael and Fianna Fail want us both to vote yes and they hate each other. I see this common interest as good for us. Not only that but most other parties want us to sign it too. I really do believe these people have our best interest at heart. Not only that but every other country thinks its the way to go. Do you really think Germany, France, The Netherlands, Belgium Spain etc. etc . would do something bad for Europe.

Please!!! The public for many of Europe's countries have been used as cannon fodder for centuries alone, never mind being herded around one way or another as dumb sheep!

Tar.Aldarion

weeder wrote: »

couldnt vote first time round, will vote no this time round as a matter of principal

I love this view, it's so hilarious.

weeder

weeder wrote: »

couldnt vote first time round, will vote no this time round as a matter of principal

What principal? Being contrary for the sake of it?

Boskowski

What you're saying is true, but unfortunately it's only one side of the coin and in my opinion it's a rather short sighted one.
It's not only about what this treaty means for Ireland in the short run and whether in the short run this treaty means advantages or disadvantages for Ireland.
This treaty is a very big and important step towards European integration whereby with 'European integration' I mean advancing a process that will ultimately lead to an actual European Federation that will replace in many aspects the sovereignity of the European nation states. A lot of people are still in denial about this as you will see from the discussions on the politics forum here but it's a fact whether these people like it or not. A lot of people still think when European politicians talk about 'European Integration' they mean bringing in more member states or have another few trade agreements. 'European Integration' doesn't mean that, European Integration means building - step by step - a European state.
The Lisbon treaty gives this process a direction that many people don't agree with. It favours a model that deviates in many aspects from fundamental democratic principals and will only consolidate the neo-liberal (for lack of a better word) direction we are already heading for.
Our duty is to do all we can to ensure this European state - whether it will come sooner or later - is a truly democratic one. Therefore 'No' to the Lisbon Treaty.

Mark200

Mrmoe wrote: »

I voted No, but was thinking of voting Yes but now I will vote No just to piss off the Yes side, ain't democracy a b1tch:D

No you're a b1tch

javaboy

Mark200 wrote: »

No you're a b1tch

Banned

weeder

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

See it is people with no clue and only principals that are going to make the difference betweem whats right and whats wrong

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I love this view, it's so hilarious.

Deleted User wrote: »

What principal? Being contrary for the sake of it?

the fact that we voted no first time round and now they are making us vote again and forcing a yes on us

Boskowski

weeder wrote: »

the fact that we voted no first time round and now they are making us vote again and forcing a yes on us

Actually as stupid as this may sound to some of you.
If I thought I had no clue and no opinion on this whatsoever I'd find that a perfectly reasonable indicator that there's something very fishy about this.

astrofool

If we don't accept the Lisbon Treaty, the rest of Europe will find a way to go ahead without us. We'll lose access to the single market (eventually) and companies will avoid Ireland like the plague. If/when the conservatives get in, in the UK, we'll find ourselves isolated with them.

We can talk about the legalities, and commissioners all we want, but the long term consequences of us voting no is to isolate Ireland from the rest of the world, and give up on ever having a sustainable economy.

Boskowski

Switzerland seems to be doing alright...

ShooterSF

astrofool wrote: »

If we don't accept the Lisbon Treaty, the rest of Europe will find a way to go ahead without us. We'll lose access to the single market (eventually) and companies will avoid Ireland like the plague. If/when the conservatives get in, in the UK, we'll find ourselves isolated with them.

We can talk about the legalities, and commissioners all we want, but the long term consequences of us voting no is to isolate Ireland from the rest of the world, and give up on ever having a sustainable economy.

Another example of the infamous scaremongering tactics of the No side.

Oh wait...

Call Me Jimmy

realcam wrote: »

Actually as stupid as this may sound to some of you.
If I thought I had no clue and no opinion on this whatsoever I'd find that a perfectly reasonable indicator that there's something very fishy about this.

Hmmm I see where you're coming from, but you don't say in yer post if you've actively done anything at all?

bikki

So what ur basically saying is if we dont succumb to the Big Bully's pier pressure they wont play with us no more?

Its like being back at school

Boskowski

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Hmmm I see where you're coming from, but you don't say in yer post if you've actively done anything at all?

I voted 'No' and that's what I'll be doing the next time - albeit for different reasons.

Call Me Jimmy

No I meant, whether you actively tried to understand it better. You made the point about someone not understanding it being an indication of it's bad vadge/ fishiness. I was curious to know if you had done something?

thelordofcheese

bikki wrote: »

So what ur basically saying is if we dont succumb to the Big Bully's pier pressure they wont play with us no more?

Its like being back at school

They're putting pressure on our piers... the bastards, where will our boats dock?

Spyral

Just feck the bullies. They should respect the original no vote.

yekrab

thanks for all the replies, i would like to say. i was surprised to find that most of the comments were positive and thankfully not argumentum ad hominen. its true that a lot of people blame brian cowen for the way ireland is now, but the truth is that the recession that ireland is under is not his fault. if u look to france, the opposition party is launching a vitriolic attack on sarkozy, in england its the same with Cameron towards Brown, all of europe is going through it, not just ireland. the truth is at least in my opinion that if bertie were still around i doubt he could do any better. (got out at the right time if u ask me).

it should be noted that all the parts of the european union are not enforceable. rather only the EC, the struture of the way europe is now is as follows,

there are 'three pillars', the first is made up of the EC, the second is 'the common security and foreign policy' and the third is judicial and policing matters', the first is by far the most important,

NB- the European union is only a few years old, and was actually created in 1992, with the masstricht treaty. before 1992 we had what was called the european communities, Euratom, the EC etc( amended from the EEC, which was the european economic community), which was really borne in the 1950s with the treaty of rome and then the treaty of paris. this is something a lot of people get mixed up. the really remote origins extend perhaps as far back as the ECSC.

today the EC is the first pillar of the EU which forms the economic community, which is concerned with creating a single market, (which was designed to distribute resouces in a fair and proper fashion, instead of by aggressive means) today the EC is the only legally enforceable pilar within the EU, and it is really concerned with the free movement of goods, people, services etc. also it is noteworthy that the (european convention on human rights) ECHR is not legally enforceable per se, rather the member states have signed it but are under no authority and risk of liability for encroaching any of its stipulations.

i would like to point out that under the lisbon treaty, the european convention on human rights would have been made legally enforceable for the first time. every body thinks that the introduction of european law is a bad thing, but consider the following, ireland has no enumerated right or unenumerated right in the constitution of ireland to the right against slavery, (im not saying that slavery is legal in ireland) but such a right could be held to be a latent right by virtue of the influence of EU law some time in the future.isnt that surely benefically? also people keep seeming to bring up the fear of being ruled by france or germany, but politicians in the signatory states cant actually introduce legislation, thats the role of the commission, (the independent from the national government part of the EU) the European parliament is not the instigator of european statues in other words nor is the european council, rather they can only vote on which legislation to pass, that was initiated by the commission.