Irish Times: Almost 75% of cyclists killed in Dublin were hit by HGVs turning left

flickerx

Article about cycling accidents from a report by Dublin City Council in the Irish Times.

"Crashes where the fault is more likely to be attributable to the cyclist accounted for a much smaller proportion of incidents. In just over 4 per cent a cyclist hit a pedestrian, while in fewer than 3 per cent of collisions a cyclist turned right into on-coming traffic."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0211/1233867931746.html

If anyone can find a link to the full report on the City Council website, I'd be interested to read it.

Lumen

No mention of helmets or red-light jumping.

For shame!

kenmc

Some of the recomendations are good though... I particularly like

Recommendations
* Upgrade of cycle lanes to remove potholes, sunken gullies and poor surfaces.
* Enforcement of legislation regarding the use of bicycle lights.
* Encourage more cycling to produce a “safety in numbers” effect.
* Provide additional cycling infrastructure on a “most used routes” priority basis.

Of course it would appear that the most obvious solution is that no HGVs may ever turn left - have to take 3x rights instead

Ryaner

kenmc wrote: »

Some of the recomendations are good though... I particularly like

Of course it would appear that the most obvious solution is that no HGVs may ever turn left - have to take 3x rights instead

Slightly off topic but has anyone noticed a huge increase in the number of potholes over the past week? Few on my commute have opened up, one I hit yesterday in the dark being over half a foot deep and over a foot long in my direction of travel.

blorg

This is nothing new

DCC report (pdf) from three years ago.

blorg

Almost 70 per cent off all cycle collisions involved cars. Although left-turning vehicles were involved the majority of fatalities, the most common collision involved right-turning cars. These accounted for just under 20 per cent of incidents. The next most common type is classified as “side swipes”, accounting for 15 per cent of collisions. These occur where a vehicle overtaking a cyclist or changing lanes hits the bicycle.

Drivers or passengers opening car doors in front of cyclists accounted for about 14 per cent of incidents, and left-turning vehicles hitting cyclists accounted for just over 12 per cent.

Crashes where the fault is more likely to be attributable to the cyclist accounted for a much smaller proportion of incidents. In just over 4 per cent a cyclist hit a pedestrian, while in fewer than 3 per cent of collisions a cyclist turned right into on-coming traffic.

I think someone should post that over in motors. Strange given the above that there was no recommendation for motorist education ("share the road") or enforcement of traffic laws. Some motorists just don't consider cyclists traffic and drive as it is the cyclist's problem to get the hell out of their way.

WicklowRacer

Ryaner wrote: »

Slightly off topic but has anyone noticed a huge increase in the number of potholes over the past week? Few on my commute have opened up, one I hit yesterday in the dark being over half a foot deep and over a foot long in my direction of travel.

For sure. The recent bad weather has left the roads in a dreadful state. I've retired the road bike and am commuting on the MTB.

Rebel021

Wasn't there a doc about this on the BBC last year?

Trojan

Going way off topic, one place that is pretty lethal due to surface problems is the right hand turn from Talbot Memorial Bridge[1] onto George's Quay. Very dodgy, and you usually hit it in very busy traffic due to lights sequence.

1. The bridge when you're going north to south from Connolly Station toward Tara St. Station, marked R105 here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.347503,-6.252036&spn=0.003631,0.011373&z=17)

Eoin D

Ryaner wrote: »

Slightly off topic but has anyone noticed a huge increase in the number of potholes over the past week? Few on my commute have opened up, one I hit yesterday in the dark being over half a foot deep and over a foot long in my direction of travel.

Yeah, the cold weather and rain/sleet/snow has knocked chunks out of the roads

Mucco

Everyone should read that article as it summarises the incidents, so people can watch out for and avoid them:

• The most common collision involved right-turning cars. These accounted for just under 20 per cent of incidents.
• The next most common type is classified as “side swipes”, accounting for 15 per cent of collisions. These occur where a vehicle overtaking a cyclist or changing lanes hits the bicycle.
• Drivers or passengers opening car doors in front of cyclists accounted for about 14 per cent of incidents
• Left-turning vehicles hitting cyclists accounted for just over 12 per cent.
• In just over 4 per cent a cyclist hit a pedestrian, while in fewer than 3 per cent of collisions a cyclist turned right into on-coming traffic.
• The more serious a crash, the more likely it was to involve a vehicle turning left, according to the report. While 73 per cent of fatalities were at a left turn (all involving HGVs) almost one-third resulting in serious injury to the cyclist involved a left-turning vehicle.
• A further 18 per cent of serious injuries were caused when a vehicle turned right and hit a cyclist, while 11 per cent involved sideswipes from vehicles.

Trojan

Might be good to discuss the practicalities of avoiding each type. Let's see how I am doing...

* HGV going left: I try and avoid being beside HGVs at all costs, and normally pull way (20ft) ahead of them if I end up near them. Sometimes I just unclip and walk the bike onto the pavement, rare but necessary. I used to cycle through the docks everyday (before port tunnel was built too) and I'm very aware of HGVs.

* Side swipes: hmm, not sure, I guess cycling at the outside of the cycle-lane makes me more likely to have one of these.

* Dooring: not going to happen due to above, usually give 2m+ to parked cars.

* Left turning cars: cycling out in the lane helps, but it happens. Visibility and awareness are crucial.

* Peds & right turns: I'm usually exhausted by the time I reach ped areas from stop-starts at lights. Right turns, well that's mainly common sense.

I think cycling out where a car/HGV must take action to go around you, while seeming illogical, is one of the best ways to have drivers take notice of you. I try to balance being visible vs holding up traffic (I will hold up traffic occasionally e.g. when passing parked cars).

Lumen

* HGV going left: Cycle in the lane and avoid being in blindspot.
* Side swipes: Cycle in the lane and avoid being in blindspot.
* Dooring: Cycle in the lane and avoid being in blindspot.
* Left turning cars: Cycle in the lane and avoid being in blindspot.
* Right turn into oncoming traffic. Ask Darwin.

Saruman

To be honest, its probably almost impossible for a HGV driver to see a cyclist.
Especially in traffic where cyclists weave in and out of cars.
I would think the onus in on the cyclist to be very careful when approaching a junction and especially if there is a truck or bus up ahead as the driver will have serious difficulty seeing them especially if the cyclist keeps going at normal speed instead of being cautious and aware that chances are, there will be a left turning vehicle ahead at the junction.

blorg

I don't think that's a reasonable approach. Yes cyclists have to be aware but HGVs should have the best mirrors fitted, drivers trained to check them and always indicate. Arguably unsegregated cycle lanes should NOT be painted up the inside of where HGVs or buses could be turning left also. Banning from the city centre also helps. Everyone has to do their part, can't just lump it all on one party.

Trojan

Trojan wrote:

* HGV going left: I try and avoid being beside HGVs at all costs, and normally pull way (20ft) ahead of them if I end up near them. Sometimes I just unclip and walk the bike onto the pavement, rare but necessary. I used to cycle through the docks everyday (before port tunnel was built too) and I'm very aware of HGVs

Ever since I read some thread on here or Commuting and Transport about how a left turning HGV obeying the left filter light ran a cyclist down who was waiting in front of him (he didn't see him and the cyclist was obeying the lights to go straight) I've been incredibly aware of HGVs and where I'm situated at a red light compared to them.

Saruman

Of course but i see a lot of cyclists flying through traffic and believing they are invincible when in fact they are the most vulnerable road users.

I have never driven a truck but i can imagine that there is no way a driver can constantly check his mirror the same way a car driver can not. They can only check before they turn, once beginning the turn they need to make sure no one is in their way such as pedestrians ignoring the red light. If a cyclist comes bombing down the inside of a truck as the driver begins his turn then there is no way for the driver to see him even if he looks in his mirror.
Sure the driver should make sure he has his indicators on but the onus should still be on the cyclist to make sure it is safe. There is a reason trucks and buses ha

Everyone has a part to play but i think putting all the blame on truckers is wrong.

As a poster said above... If you beside a hgv then he can not possibly see you. Even if you are in front of a HGV you need to be pretty far in front as they can not see you there either.
I have not driven one but i have been in the cab so know that visibility is very limited.

Karma

Saruman wrote: »

To be honest, its probably almost impossible for a HGV driver to see a cyclist.
Especially in traffic where cyclists weave in and out of cars.
I would think the onus in on the cyclist to be very careful when approaching a junction and especially if there is a truck or bus up ahead as the driver will have serious difficulty seeing them especially if the cyclist keeps going at normal speed instead of being cautious and aware that chances are, there will be a left turning vehicle ahead at the junction.

most left turn accident usually involves the vehicle overtaking the cyclist and then forgetting/ignoring where the bike is, as they take the corner...


why is it that all the dangerous spots dont have bike lanes...

Ghost Rider

There's a big difference! The DCC referred to in the article is a governmental entity (Dublin City Council), whereas the DCC behind that PDF is a pressure group (i.e. Dublin Cycling Campaign).

Not being a lawyer, I'm guessing here, but I'd imagine that the city council's recommendations would have much more legal weight than those of a pressure group - if there was a putative negligence case, to take one example.

blorg wrote: »

This is nothing new

DCC report (pdf) from three years ago.

Chips Lovell

The moral of the story is, don't be going inside HGVs at junctions. To be honest, I'm suprised more people don't get killed given the way some riders squeeze in next to trucks and buses.

Trojan

el tonto wrote: »

I'm suprised more people don't get killed given the way some riders squeeze in next to trucks and buses.

I'm guilty of squeezing inside buses on rare occasions. I shall not bother to post my weak defence, it is not the wisest thing to do.

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

I'm suprised more people don't get killed given the way some riders squeeze in next to trucks and buses.

It's a width thing.

Mucco

el tonto wrote: »

The moral of the story is, don't be going inside HGVs at junctions.

This has to be the no. 1 rule. The problem is, not enough cyclists know it.
Most HGV drivers are professionals, and tend to be good drivers, but the blind-spots can be immense:
http://www.movingtargetzine.com/forum/discussion/598/hgv-blind-spots-from-nozzer/

TfL have parked a truck in Trafalgar Sq. on several occasions now. Cyclists are encouraged to sit in the cab and see (not see!) the blind-spots fro themselves.

Ghost Rider

Good idea, that.

Mucco wrote: »

This has to be the no. 1 rule. The problem is, not enough cyclists know it.
Most HGV drivers are professionals, and tend to be good drivers, but the blind-spots can be immense:
http://www.movingtargetzine.com/forum/discussion/598/hgv-blind-spots-from-nozzer/

TfL have parked a truck in Trafalgar Sq. on several occasions now. Cyclists are encouraged to sit in the cab and see (not see!) the blind-spots fro themselves.

Húrin

I wonder how many incidents involved cycle couriers?

DirkVoodoo

Not really applying this to HGVs, but more to general traffic:

A lot of junctions where there is a left turn, particularly the left turn for fosters ave. off the N11 I always move well out in front of where the cars are stopped to increase my visibility.

They recently put in an extremely dangerous traffic addition here: a pedestrian light with a left hand turn filter light. Why is this bad?

I've seen it a good few times now: the traffic light for straight ahead goes green, the line of cars turning left hesitate for a second before the first one decides "feck it" and makes the left turn, so all follow, breaking the red light. Imagine sticking a cyclist there. He thinks, great, I'm going straight I have the green light and continues to go straight. The line of cars he believes are stopped at a red are given less attention than normal. Wham!

Sit out of the traffic, sit well in front, sometimes nearly in the junction but not in the way of traffic and make yourself seen.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Lumen wrote: »

No mention of helmets or red-light jumping.

For shame!

You're talking about the study that suggested that cyclists who stop at red lights are more likely to be hit by a goods vehicle?

Saruman

The road survival guide at the bottom of that article is some good advice.

BeerNut

Lumen wrote: »

* Dooring: Cycle in the lane and avoid being in blindspot.

The only times I've been doored I've been in a cycle track. It's usually alongside stationary traffic and someone decides to hop out on the left across the bike lane to the pavement. There's nothing for it except keep a stopping speed and watch the insides of the stopped cars. One of the worst places is heading to town on lower Clanbrassil Street in the mornings: stationary cars on the right of the lane, parked cars on the left, doors opening and pedestrians walking between vehicles from both sides.

blorg

BeerNut wrote: »

The only times I've been doored I've been in a cycle track.

Also happens when parking is put right beside the cycle track. The only solution is to cycle a safe door width away, e.g. outside the cycle track. Which is illegal.

tomcollins97

Why would a cyclist ever cycle past the inside of a HGV when the HGV is either moving or stationary? There may be an occasion where the cyclist in in front of the HGV & the HGV moves past it, but at some stage at red lights the cyclist, to get ahead, must have passd the HGV & being aware that it is there should make sure that he doesn't end up beside it?? Alos, whay are cyclist obcessed with being at the 'top of the queue' at light? If they insist in being at the front of the queue at lights would it not be better to be in the middle of the lane so that a truck/car can see you directly infront of them rather than being off to the left?

Lumen

BeerNut wrote: »

The only times I've been doored I've been in a cycle track. It's usually alongside stationary traffic and someone decides to hop out on the left across the bike lane to the pavement. There's nothing for it except keep a stopping speed and watch the insides of the stopped cars. One of the worst places is heading to town on lower Clanbrassil Street in the mornings: stationary cars on the right of the lane, parked cars on the left, doors opening and pedestrians walking between vehicles from both sides.

When I said "cycle in the lane" I meant the main lane, not the cyclist killing zone to the left.

TinyExplosions

tomcollins97 wrote: »

Why would a cyclist ever cycle past the inside of a HGV when the HGV is either moving or stationary?

Um, to get past it? There are a number of times you may wish to do this, for example, if there are two lanes of traffic, truck in right hand lane, cars in left, you filtering down the middle. The problem is really on left turns for the HGV, and has been said above, a lot of the time it's when a cyclist has been overtaken and 'forgotten' about.

tomcollins97 wrote: »

There may be an occasion where the cyclist in in front of the HGV & the HGV moves past it, but at some stage at red lights the cyclist, to get ahead, must have passd the HGV & being aware that it is there should make sure that he doesn't end up beside it?? Alos, whay are cyclist obcessed with being at the 'top of the queue' at light? If they insist in being at the front of the queue at lights would it not be better to be in the middle of the lane so that a truck/car can see you directly infront of them rather than being off to the left?

If you're at the 'top of the queue' you are safer, simple as that. People can see you and not do something daft. I tend to stick to the middle of the lane when at lights, but many people don't. I guess this is to avoid annoying drivers (something I don't care about)

Trojan

tomcollins97 wrote: »

whay are cyclist obcessed with being at the 'top of the queue' at light? If they insist in being at the front of the queue at lights would it not be better to be in the middle of the lane so that a truck/car can see you directly infront of them rather than being off to the left?

It's far safer. And to answer the 2nd, yes it is better to be in the middle, but pisses drivers off (which is why I usually start in the middle and move left across the junction).

tomcollins97

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Um, to get past it? There are a number of times you may wish to do this, for example, if there are two lanes of traffic, truck in right hand lane, cars in left, you filtering down the middle. The problem is really on left turns for the HGV, and has been said above, a lot of the time it's when a cyclist has been overtaken and 'forgotten' about.)

Would you not go out of your way to stay away from HGV's rather than pass them? Surely being safe is better than being fast?? Let the HGV do what it's gonna do then the cyclist can safely go about their business, rather than the cyclist trying to pass & then getting stuck beside the truck & run over. Passing on the inside is not allowed for cars so maybe cyclists should not do it either?

TinyExplosions

tomcollins97 wrote: »

Would you not go out of your way to stay away from HGV's rather than pass them? Surely being safe is better than being fast?? Let the HGV do what it's gonna do then the cyclist can safely go about their business, rather than the cyclist trying to pass & then getting stuck beside the truck & run over. Passing on the inside is not allowed for cars so maybe cyclists should not do it either?

So you're suggesting never passing a HGV at all? What if one overtakes you, then by definition you're on their inside.

I always cycle safe, it's why I've never been hit by a car (or truck) so far. It's all about being aware of situations. If dangerous, I won't pass the inside of any vehicle

DirkVoodoo

Tom, tom, tom...you are not making a lot of sense. You have been given several acceptable reasons from seasoned cyclists/commuters. Unless you have some extra knowledge no-one on here knows about as to why we should see a HGV and never go past it, let it go.

Most of the danger is in HGVs turning left, no one is saying snake through a junction and gamble with your life, so what exactly is your point? If you see a HGV, turn that bike around and go back to bed?

tomcollins97

TinyExplosions wrote: »

So you're suggesting never passing a HGV at all? What if one overtakes you, then by definition you're on their inside.

I always cycle safe, it's why I've never been hit by a car (or truck) so far. It's all about being aware of situations. If dangerous, I won't pass the inside of any vehicle

I never pass a HGV on the inside, and I certainly never try to share a lane with one!

If I am on the inside the HGV to my right is hardly turing left! The issue is with cyclists 'sharing' the inside lane with HGV's & HGV's then turning onto them

TinyExplosions

tomcollins97 wrote: »

I never pass a HGV on the inside, and I certainly never try to share a lane with one!

So you never cycle on the road at all? Them buggers will sneak up on ya you know, it being a public road and all

tomcollins97 wrote: »

If I am on the inside the HGV to my right is hardly turing left! The issue is with cyclists 'sharing' the inside lane with HGV's & HGV's then turning onto them

Now that's dangerous thinking there -people lane switch and cut across lanes all the time.

Look, it's very very simple. If there's a likelihood that a truck is going to turn left (based on a combination of one, more or less of the following: Road Position, Indicators, The presence of a Left Turn), then of course you shouldn't cycle up the inside of the truck. This also holds true for busses, cars and other cyclists though, not just hgvs!

blorg

tomcollins97 wrote: »

I never pass a HGV on the inside, and I certainly never try to share a lane with one!

If I am on the inside the HGV to my right is hardly turing left! The issue is with cyclists 'sharing' the inside lane with HGV's & HGV's then turning onto them

That's the sort of thinking that could get you killed, buses and HGVs often turn left from the right or middle lane; they may have to do this to avoid hitting the kerb.

tomcollins97

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Look, it's very very simple. If there's a likelihood that a truck is going to turn left (based on a combination of one, more or less of the following: Road Position, Indicators, The presence of a Left Turn), then of course you shouldn't cycle up the inside of the truck. This also holds true for busses, cars and other cyclists though, not just hgvs!

Why would you ever go near a truck regardless of whether or not you think it is going to turn left! Stay well back & you won’t get crushed under it. Common sense!

He who is bigger rules the road!

NeilMcEoigheann

i'm of the opinion that the cycle lane is the cyclists, never should a car venture into it no matter what, cyclists should use the cycle lane (killing zone) whenever possible although they can use the road whenever the fludity of the cycle lane is compromised (gob****e just running into the shop/ pothole) the road is for everyone and cyclists shouldn't be bullied off the road.

kenmc

tomcollins97 wrote: »

Why would you ever go near a truck regardless of whether or not you think it is going to turn left! Stay well back & you won’t get crushed under it. Common sense!

What do you propose that one does if the truck/bus is stopped in heavy traffic, 40 or 50 metres from any junction left or right, and there is a cycle lane to the left of the bus/truck? Wait behind it breathing their tasty diesel fumes? The only way it can crush you is if it is moving. If it is stuck in heavy traffic it cannot move.

tomcollins97

kenmc wrote: »

What do you propose that one does if the truck/bus is stopped in heavy traffic, 40 or 50 metres from any junction left or right, and there is a cycle lane to the left of the bus/truck? Wait behind it breathing their tasty diesel fumes? The only way it can crush you is if it is moving. If it is stuck in heavy traffic it cannot move.

So if cyclists are doing no wrong, and the trucks are doing no wrong, why are people getting killed?

Gavin

tomcollins97 wrote: »

So if cyclists are doing no wrong, and the trucks are doing no wrong, why are people getting killed?

It's not complicated, I don't know why you are trying to obfuscate the issue.
If a HGV is stopped in traffic and is not near a left turn, it is perfectly reasonable to undertake it in the cycle lane.
If a HGV is moving and there are no left turns ahead, show caution. If a HGV is moving and there is a left turn, stay behind it.

DirkVoodoo

Tom, you are obviously not going to listen to reason on this, so just be careful on the roads and do whatever you think is safe for you.

Húrin

tomcollins97 wrote: »

Alos, whay are cyclist obcessed with being at the 'top of the queue' at light? If they insist in being at the front of the queue at lights would it not be better to be in the middle of the lane so that a truck/car can see you directly infront of them rather than being off to the left?

for visibility. I usually go to the middle of the lane if I pull up in front, or at least to the right of potential left-turners.

tomcollins97 wrote: »

Would you not go out of your way to stay away from HGV's rather than pass them?

I agree. I always keep a distance behind trucks.

petethedrummer

what colour is the truck? I see it as being red.

TinyExplosions

tomcollins97 wrote: »

Why would you ever go near a truck regardless of whether or not you think it is going to turn left! Stay well back & you won’t get crushed under it. Common sense!

He who is bigger rules the road!

*sigh*

Bunnyhopper

Karma wrote: »

why is it that all the dangerous spots dont have bike lanes...

Or, why is it that they put the cycle lane to the left of the left-turn lane and then require you to use the cycle lane even though it's in the most dangerous position possible?

It's a problem that blorg alluded to already, and it could lure the less experienced cyclist into a situation like that outlined by Myth.

Bunnyhopper

tomcollins97 wrote: »

whay are cyclist obcessed with being at the 'top of the queue' at light? If they insist in being at the front of the queue at lights would it not be better to be in the middle of the lane so that a truck/car can see you directly infront of them rather than being off to the left?

I'm not obsessed with being at the top of the queue at lights, I just tend to end up there because bikes get from one set of lights to the next quicker than cars etc. in queuing traffic. In fact, if any cyclists do have an obsession with being at the top of the queue then it may be because if you want to take up a central position - as you advise - then the best place to do it is usually at the top of the queue. The caveats about HGVs that have been mentioned several times already do, of course, apply to that.